Jason Mironchuk [00:00:00]:

Foreign.

Will Spencer [00:00:20]:

Jason Mironchuk, welcome to the Will Spencer podcast.

Jason Mironchuk [00:00:24]:

You got it. First try. Thank you, Will. Very, very happy and excited to be here.

Will Spencer [00:00:28]:

I'm really looking forward to this conversation with you. A couple weeks ago we connected on X and I saw that you posted a very interesting thesis that I happen to agree with, that we're in an age of sons who are not necessarily just in rebellion to their fathers, but also to their mothers, the devouring mothers, vengeful sons. And that was an article that you posted on Substack that's linked in the description and I want to get into that, but we've just had a very brief, fascinating conversation just as we were getting ready for this and it has me curious to know a little bit more about your background just before we get started.

Jason Mironchuk [00:01:03]:

Sure. Well, I'm from Montreal, Canada originally. Hat represents living in Australia right now, Western Australia. Moved out here about four years ago with my Australian wife and then my one year, she was one year old at that point. Daughter back general background is my, well, I'll talk about, let's say the spiritual aspect of it. My mother and father divorced when I was quite young. Born and raised in the, in the late 70s, mostly raised by my mother's family, which is the Ukrainian Polish aspect of it. That's where the last name comes from. Raised around the church, raised with the church in there, but not, I wouldn't say I wasn't. We weren't going to church every Sunday. This is fairly typical for like, I think a lot of let's say first generation Eastern Europeans who came over to Canada. There's a sort of a divide, leaving sort of the old country behind. And my grandfather was definitely part of that, that kind of mentality. But I, you know, had full belief in God and you know, read my Bible and, and was certainly raised with orthodoxy sort of in the mix. And when he, when my grandfather died when I was 12, I was very unprepared for it. And I've been praying to God and not getting the, getting the, the blessings that I, I been praying for. So turned from God when I was about 13 in anger and confusion and went in that whole atheist, antitheist, you know, that track, I think. Yeah, you're nodding. Many, many people have said the exact same thing. It's a curse of the age very much, you know, I was very much a man of my age, that kind of ilk. And then late 2019, I was working in restaurants as a bar manager at the time. I was hanging up Christmas decorations and fell backwards off the bar and put my hand through a back bar which almost said with my thumb off. So that was happening. So I was in convalescences of that. And then of course, a long flu of 2020 happened and lockdowns and all that kind of stuff was. Was quite harsh in. In Quebec, my. My wife was pregnant, we had to move house. So lots of things were going on. Yeah, My daughter was born. And around that time I saw the George Floyd protests outside my window in Montreal. And I. And at this point I started to soften a bit on my stance towards religion, Christianity specifically, but because through Jordan Peterson's lectures and a whole bunch of other things, like, maybe I can allow this sort of. I. I'm not religious, but, you know, maybe I won't have to have as much anger towards it as I had before. Then I saw the. The George Floyd kneelings outside my window. And that's when something just went tink. Like all my. I've said that liberalism is sort of the art of stacking mental contradictions. And I use the image of like, let's, you know, cartoon where you have all these dirty plates that are stacked up on. On ends and they're kind of swaying in the breeze. And it was just that one moment where my secular, you know, skeptical brain went, this is a religious ceremony. What's happening. This doesn't fit. And on top of everything else, and that's just when the cascade happened. And, you know, I'm not a very emotional person. I'm usually defined by being sort of grumpy. I'm more or less, you know, always irritable, but that's kind of my. My constant. Sure, that's. That's just. We need those.

Will Spencer [00:04:51]:

We need those men too.

Jason Mironchuk [00:04:53]:

Yeah, yeah. I'm. I'm a curmudgeon. I'm a iconoclastic iconoclast. But what I found was that right. Right around that time, I just started having breakdowns. Like, I was just like, just weeping. You know, I have my daughter, my newborn daughter, my hands and the rainbow connection. Come on. And I'm ugly crying. And I'm like, I don't know what's going on. And. And I just kind of cried out. In October of 2020, I cried out for no one really in particular, but I was like, you know, what do I do? And I had a very clear voice and answer me saying, bear witness. And I said, okay. And a week later, I got hit with, let's say, 32 years of. Of shame. And that's how I knew Something had happened. Now I've told that story to, to church fathers and priests since then and have that have had that confirmed that that was the voice of, of the Holy Spirit or voice of God. And that kind of just started that whole, you talking about, you know, plates coming down. So kind of realize at that moment that I'm wrong about everything. Like everything. And I needed to rebuild and rescaffed my, my reality, or as we say, from the orthodox frame of the. My Fronima. So because Orthodoxy was the religion of my grandfather and because it was something that I was relatively, I mean, somewhat familiar with, I started to inquire more into Orthodoxy. And that's kind of led me to this point now where now I'm attending liturgy on the regular. I finally found a church down here that I'm attending St. Mary's and yeah, and so hopefully we'll be doing my catechism. Catechism whenever my priest decides that it's time for them to do that. But it's, you know, I've waited this long. We can wait. We can wait a bit longer. And yeah, that's kind of where we're at. And then, so because of all that happening and restructuring the way I'm looking at not just liberalism and society and all the rest of it, but reality itself, I've been. Been sort of blessed with certain, let's say, providential insights, some intuitions that has led me to this vengeful son thesis and a few other things which is sort of incorporating certain church fathers, John Johnathan Pageau, a lot of Randy Girard. There's a lot of memetics that I use to kind of look at media and goings ons and filter through memetics and then come up with sort of operable theory. So that's where we're at.

Will Spencer [00:07:25]:

Well, I think the, the liberalism is a stack of. The stack of dirty plates. I think that people can spot some, some insight there. And it was the, the vengeful son meme insight that you had that really, that really resonated with me because that's something I spent a bunch of time in the manosphere and I saw quite a lot of that, you know, and I think that there was a. There was a response that I'd observed building to feminism that went beyond a rational response and started becoming irrational in its anger. And I observed that it was like a turning of the revolutionary wheel. Like we had that to borrow the feminist framework, you had the men on top and then the women had to be on top. And now the men are trying to come back around to be on top again. And the revolutionary wheel keeps turning. And I hadn't heard anyone else spot that before, particularly some of the vitriol and the anger that's associated with that. And so when we connected, I was like, okay, we have to have a conversation about this because I think it's really up right now. So if you wouldn't mind, I would love to hear you unpack that. That thesis a little bit further.

Jason Mironchuk [00:08:30]:

So, okay, I'll try to go do this as literally as possible. It's a little bit difficult. I understand about some fasting, so I got fasting brains, so. And I like to talk, so I'll try to reel me back in.

Will Spencer [00:08:42]:

I relate to both of those questions.

Jason Mironchuk [00:08:44]:

Yeah, the struggle is real, really. Back in. Have me correct anything if you need. Be sure. So I'll try to describe the way that I first sort of started to formulate the thought. So I was listening to Pete Canones show at the end of. Near the end of 2023, and he was talking quite a bit about this spirit of the ages and that kind of concept. Another word we could use for it is like zeitgeist. So I started thinking about that by listening to his conversations and started thinking, okay, what is the new. I feel like we're coming into a new age. What is this new age? And that kind of got me into that. You know, I'm thinking of. It's. It's very. It's. It's resentment times 10. Right. It's very directed resentment. And a lot of it is coming out as a spirit of vengeance. Like we want to burn things down. And coming out of a lot of young men and young. I mean, anyone who's not a boomer, let's say. So, yeah, 60. 60 down. Gen X. My generation is just as guilty of this as anything else. And maybe we'll get into Elon Musk and a few other people who I think are being models for this. Please. So then I started thinking, okay, well, if that's the incoming spirit, what was. What was the outgoing spirit? And I thought, well, that's the Devouring Mother, right? Or as Semi Gog said on my show, the Smothering Mother. So that kind of spirit of bring on, you know, bring all your children onto me. I will suffer for them. You know, I will protect them. And as she's, you know, in her loving martyrdom kind of love, she's also suffering, but she's. She's like strangling them or drowning them. So there's that image and that's, let's say from the 1960s up until 2020, kind of peaking in covet and lockdowns and levels. A lot of those other things. Yeah. So what would be the precursor to that would be more of a spirit of a tyrannical father. So thinking at the, the turn of the 20th century, all the way up until the 1950s or so, two world wars, great Depression, these men either either abusive or they're distant, they're shell shocked. Other from being in wars or being affected by it. And what links all these, let's say three, this sort of inverted family unit together is a sort of spirit of revolution, the revolutionary spirit that really kind of comes through, let's say the 17th and 18th century, kind of runs ground in the 1850s and then comes back and comes back darker and much more as an assault on Christianity itself, on Christendom, on all the, let's say the, let's say the divine virtues get inverted. So the triangle father is, is the inversion of the wise Father. The devouring Mother is the inversion of the, of the divine Mother. An eventual son is the inversion of the prodigal son. So if we're looking at those inversions and then we're coupling this into sort of liberalism. Well, liberalism, in my way of thinking is a resentment factory. It, it relies on two things really. Narcissism and. Or hermeticism of some sort, and resentment. And it feeds on resentment that revolution always needs something, something to act against. It's in, it's inside the name to liberate oneself from an oppressor, from, from whatever is oppressing you. You know, it could be an actual, let's say, you know, oppressive boss or individual, or you get into sort of metaphysic. So then, now it's liberating ourselves from history, from tradition, from God. That's right. And that's, that's this progression. So now I'm looking at, at liberalism as Luciferian. So when we break a liberal frame, we're trying to break free of this sort of Luciferian frame of reality. And that this family structure that I'm just, I'm describing, if we think of the traditional family structure, the, let's say the, the good one, the virtuous one, it's a mini trinity. It's held together. It's. It's a little monastery inside the house where the, with a, where the father is the office of the priest. We invert that now and so now we have the Luciferian family. Right. This revolution through the office of the father, the mother and the child. And I think that's where we're in right now.

Will Spencer [00:13:13]:

I love how you backed it all the way out to. You have the, the revolution of the tyrannical father, in a way. And by the way, just so I saw the same things you did after George Floyd, and that also inspired me to become Christian in September of 2020. I come from a very different background. Not, not a background in Christianity at all. In 2021, I wanted to produce a documentary series about this global rebirth of masculinity. And so I had tracked the same trends that you did, going from the Industrial Revolution, the Enlightenment Industrial Revolution. You have this generation of fathers, you know, Great depression, World War II, shell shocked, stoic John Wayne, right. You had this rebellious spirit in the 1960s that rebelled against dad, right? And then that evolved into the various metastases of feminism, the tyrannical mother being the, the firmest expression of it. Once those women became mothers, if they did, or they become, became tyrannical mothers in bureaucracies or governments, et cetera. And then you have this wholesale revolt that I think began around 2016 with Trump. In fact, I think his, his first election was, as Michael Moore, the filmmaker, Michael Moore very rightly said, a brick thrown through the window of the establishment. He, Michael Moore ended his career with that speech. He gave a speech like in Michigan or something like that, trying to explain, hey, this is how America has disaffected many working class men. This is how they feel. They want to throw, they want to throw the brick through the window of the establishment. I think young men felt the same way. And then what you had, instead of Trump's second election as you had Joe Biden, right, The Biden scam administration. And I think what that did, you know, first of all, it gave Trump an additional four years to plan the game that he, the game plan that he's running right now. But I think it just, it put a pressure cooker on top of so much that rather than allowing the steam to escape for another, another four years through Trump, it built it up even more, as you have Kamala Harris, etc. And then we're seeing it explode now. And I think it started exploding particularly after October 7, Palestine, Israel, and then after the assassination attempt, the Haitian dogs and cats and I. But I thought that Trump's second election in October, I thought it was all this tension that had built up and, and once he got elected, everyone was just going to breathe a sigh of relief, like, huh, right, you're Shaking your head. So. And you're right, because it just got so much worse after that and now it seems to be accelerating. And that's why I think this conversation is urgent. Go ahead.

Jason Mironchuk [00:15:55]:

I think this, the reason why people respond to this, this thing that I just laid out as a hero suit is that one that I feel that people respond to it on a sort of a visceral level. Like, I say the word vengeful son, and everyone kind of leans forward. What is that? Because you kind of feel it. The other thing, too, that I think people contend with, and this is oftentimes back and forth I get with people who are trying to tell me that I'm wrong. I'm like, well, that's. I don't know how I could be. It's. Yeah, you can, you can come up with your own. That's cool. But. But I think what people misunderstand is that, well, okay, there's a discernment between justice and, and vengeance. And what. Where that line is drawn.

Will Spencer [00:16:40]:

Yes.

Jason Mironchuk [00:16:41]:

Is very, very murky. And when I first started presenting this, this concept out to people, I said, the problem with the Vengeful sun is it's going to feel good. And because it's going to feel good, people are going to lean into it and they're going to justify it and they're going to say, no, no, no, this is justice. The bad people have to have the bad things done to them. The thing, the other thing that people misunderstand is they think the other side is doing it, doing the bad stuff, and they're not. The way that these spirits work is. It infects everybody. So the Devouring Mother, we just came through 60 years of it. The Devouring Mother wasn't just affecting women and. Or just feminists or just liberals or just this group. It affected all of us. Our concept of what man, what a. What a man is, what a father is, what masculinity is, has been completely and totally altered. It was totally altered by the triangle father. Our grandfathers are. Weren't like our great grandfathers and certainly weren't. Weren't like our great, great great grandfathers. You can blame it on if you want to blame on things, right? It's the industrial era. It's this, it's that. It's World War I.

Will Spencer [00:17:53]:

Go back to the garden.

Jason Mironchuk [00:17:55]:

Sure, yeah. But either way, things have changed. So when you look at something like Gerardian memetics, what Gerard kind of deposits is that we all need models so we don't know what to want. We always we always look for other people to tell us what we want. But you can also apply this to people, how to behave, what is, what is these things. So we look for models. Anyone with a young child knows this. Your child gets defined what man or woman is from, from the, from her father, from her, her mother. So at early stages and then that gets more complex as the child grows up and encounters other people. But essentially the concept of man, masculine, father, these things get defined by her, the child's actual father. So when you start writing this, writing this large. So these effects aren't just effects on, let's say the political or just a social kind of disease. It's changing people's perception of what a man, a woman, father, mother, masculine, feminine. These things have all been part of this revolution. They've been, they've become inverted. So when we look at, for, I've seen this a lot in sort of the distant spheres, you see a lot of young men going back to, they're, you know, exalting, let's say the great generation. Or if they go, well, there's problems there, they'll go back to the 19th century or even further back. You're like, you have no relationship to these people. Roman Empire, right? Yeah, the Rome. Yeah, exactly. You know, okay, great, cool, awesome. But you have no relationship to these people. Like, how are you going to be Crassius? Because you write a book. It's, it's literally what Gerard talks about when he, when he examines Don Quixote. And Don Quixote is trying to model romantic night characters in these, in these romantic night novels of the time. And he's gone crazy because of, because of it. He's trying to be the ultra chivalrous Knight at age 90. Right. So it's like, it's the same phenomena where these people are trying to act out characters, but they have no direct modeling. So when we talk about the prodigal son, we can get, maybe get there a little bit. But yeah, the, the thing that I think that Westerners have got to get through their heads and maybe this is why people coming back to the church in such numbers and it's pretty, it's pretty massive numbers now comparatively, the last few years anyways, 18 to 24.

Will Spencer [00:20:30]:

Some numbers just came out today that 1/3 of 18 to 24 year old males have gone back to church, something like that.

Jason Mironchuk [00:20:36]:

And Peter Thiel is directing a whole bunch of people from, from Silicon Valley to get back in the church. And lots of these things happening. We can talk about Peter Thiel too Because I think he's very central to all these things.

Will Spencer [00:20:47]:

I absolutely agree.

Jason Mironchuk [00:20:48]:

In the story of the prodigal son, it's a, it's the youngest son who leaves his father's house in his vain glory and pride to strike it on his own. Meets, Meets ruin, has it finds himself in, in the employ of a. Of a cruel man and he's eating the food of the pigs. And he decides to return to his father's home because at least his father treats his workers better. And he meets his father on the road and his. And he's, he's ashamed. But the father embraces him and brings him back as a. With a hero's welcome years. You know, the prodigal son has returned to be the. Become the, the. The. The prudent son. And in that story, of course we can again if we can attach that to the church that many of us have left the church in our, in our vain glory and our pride, have realized that our lives are meaningless without it, have returned. And that's why I say it's, it's about returning. So we, we return, we repent and we redeem or we become redeemed. We are in the act of redemption and these things are carried forward in the, in the Jesus prayer, for example, like Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy me, a sinner. Return, repent, redeem, Return, repent, redeem. Return, repent, redeem. This is the way I think we break this resentment cycle. We break this revolution, right? We, and we return to model the perfect model which is Christ. And we don't have to have a one to one relationship with him in that, in that sense, like it doesn't have to be our literal Father, but all the information is held within Christ of how to be a good man, a good father, a good Christian, a good, a good citizen, etc. Etc. Etc. So I think that's, that's the cure for a lot of this stuff.

Will Spencer [00:22:30]:

And I think you're right. I think the thing that troubles me is to find that men are coming home as prodigal sons, but rather than returning to a righteous father who asks repentance of them, you have a lot of men that are being exploited and the thing that they feel that they need to repent of is their liberalism as opposed to repent of their, Their bitterness and their rebellion. And that's, that's the part that I'm seeing and that, that troubles me particularly you know, coming from the manosphere and the red pill and from 4chan, you know, these, these Forces of cultivated bitterness that live in the various levels of the underworld, of the Internet, that are. That are really ginning up this resentment in men, and that has now flooded into the church in various ways. And because they've discovered the. The way the manosphere works, not a lot of people saw this, in part because the manosphere is basically now gone. Is it functioned via cults of personality. The cult of personalities. You have a man, a figure who has identified a pain point for some collection, large or small, of young men. And he knows exactly how to push on the pain point. And he pushes it, and the men go, ow. He's like, I'll sell you this. I'll sell you this medicine for the pain point. I'm the only guy who's got the medicine, right? And so, so you have this bond that develops, and then there are rings, there's the guy that's closest, the guys that are closest to the leader and the guys outside. And the bullying flows outwards, right? So everyone wants to get up the A level of the hierarchy so they can bully outwards to the guy at the top. And that is a very profitable business model, as it turns out, until the, until the pelos and sins and low character of the men are revealed, which is what happened to the manosphere. And Andrew Tate has taken that business model and he's now turned it into a. A global empire. And certainly we can talk about him as well. And, and so all that being what it is, I'm seeing some of that replicated in the Christian space. And that's. That saddens me. I think sad is probably the, the best word for it. I mean, it's outrageous, as in it's an outrage, but it's also one of those things that, that God will judge pretty, pretty harshly, I imagine. But in the meantime, until that, until that day comes, until he. Until he strikes from the heavens, there is the unresolved question of what to do with young men's anger, right? And not to shut it down, not to shame it away, but how to, okay, you get to let it out, but then you have to stop it. You see that? You have to let that go, bro. And that instinct is not there in the dialogue yet.

Jason Mironchuk [00:25:05]:

Forgiveness is, Is a tough one, right? I say these things about the vengeful synopsis, as. And I've said to other people as well, is that I'm aware of the danger of it because I feel it too, right? There's that call in me too, where you bring up certain names and I won't because you're on YouTube. But we've all had dark little fantasies about certain people. Whisper, whisper.

Will Spencer [00:25:29]:

I won't tell anybody.

Jason Mironchuk [00:25:30]:

Oh, just a certain doctor perhaps glorily retired. But. And there. And there'll be other ones too. Look, we're seeing this happen in the left wing anyways, right? You're seeing this happen. The Luigi Mang, the. The cults of the Jians. The General. The General transformed kids are something that I'm. I'm. I'm raising some alarm bells off because I think that's the army of the vengeful son. So conservatively, what we know now that within the continental United States, the last figures I saw were around a hundred thousand or more kids have been given puberty blockers.

Will Spencer [00:26:15]:

Okay, you said a hundred thousand kids.

Jason Mironchuk [00:26:17]:

Have been giving puberty blockers that we know of. And if we expand that to. To the rest of the west, we're talking at least 500000 kids. Okay. That's just puberty blockers. We're not talking the operations.

Will Spencer [00:26:31]:

Oh, okay. So the operations would be an additional or a subset of that.

Jason Mironchuk [00:26:35]:

Well, we'd be. Let's say there'd be a. Probably a Venn diagram. Like you know, everyone who's had a surgery was. Is also taking these. These medications.

Will Spencer [00:26:43]:

Right.

Jason Mironchuk [00:26:44]:

As we're finding out, these puberty blockers, they're permanently disabling people.

Will Spencer [00:26:48]:

Yeah.

Jason Mironchuk [00:26:48]:

So regardless of whether you. How much surgery you've had, you're going to be altered for the rest of your life.

Will Spencer [00:26:56]:

Yeah.

Jason Mironchuk [00:26:56]:

And so we. The easy one to look at is let's say the 35 year old guy with a. With a. With a beard, wearing a sundress. Right. That's. That's an easy target for our. Our condemnation and maybe rightfully so. What we're not talking about is the 13 year old kids been given these pre bird blockers. What happens with them in 3, 4, 5 years time when they're 18, 19, 20, they come out of this fog, they no longer have this externalized pressure and they realize they've been lied to.

Will Spencer [00:27:27]:

Yeah.

Jason Mironchuk [00:27:27]:

Because one of the things about the resentual son that I have in my article, it's a respond to. To betrayal, this awareness of betrayal. The original red pill that Curtis Yarbon lays out is you take the red pill and become aware that everything around you has been lot. You're. You're living this lie that the post Nuremberg regime. A lot of these narratives, some are based in fact a lot of them are lies. And you've been living this lie and you finally all the lies are coming home and they're being revealed. We're in this apocalypse where all things hidden are being revealed. Yeah. And people who've been on this for the last five, 10 years, well, we've had the benefit in some ways of having, of not being able to say much. You say too much and you get canceled. Right. So you have to like play these little games of. And you kind of go through your periods of, of anger and resentment and all these things. But you kind of work through it over the last five, 10 years. And now, you know, I can't speak for everyone, but I'll speak for myself. I'm kind of in a good place now, right. Where I look at these things like well that's unfortunate. But you know, I've gotten angry about it before. That didn't fix anything. Moving on. Right. What's going to happen to a lot of people I think is they're going to get on board with all this awareness of a lie, all one shot. They're not going to get that five, 10 years of, you know, acceptance. They're going to get it right away. And then once they get it, they're going to get real angry real fast and they're going to go, they're going to speed, run through that, that period of, of awareness in you know, six months, a year. It's coming, it's coming fast now. So when that starts happening and you have all these kids, 500000 at least, right. Who've been lied to, deceived, altered, and they wake up to this lie and we're starting to see this, what happens then. And I think that's your army, eventual sons. Because that's a bunch of kids. And I've said this before, the, the nature's WMD is 18 to 25 year old young men.

Will Spencer [00:29:38]:

Yes, it is.

Jason Mironchuk [00:29:38]:

You give them, if you give them a gun and you or a weapon and you give them a target, they'll go do that. And we're starting to see it. Shejians are just the tip of the iceberg because they're gonna be angry and they're going to lash out and they're not going to care. They can't get to the person who lied to them. They'll get the next best thing. Luigi, if we go by his story, have bad back surgery, right. Living in pain. So who's his target? Who's a scapegoat? Pharmaceutical CEO, sorry, insurance CEO.

Will Spencer [00:30:21]:

It's so interesting about this. I remember during, after, after the 2020 election. It was, it was pretty clear that that was not a straight up legit election as pretty clear at the time. And I remember there were lots of boards, the Reddit board. The Donald was still operational at the time, I think. I'm pretty sure it was.

Jason Mironchuk [00:30:47]:

Right.

Will Spencer [00:30:48]:

And for those who, for those who don't know what the, the Donald was, that was a, it was a just a message board on Reddit that was 100%, we'll say, dissident. Right. Politics. You know, it was heavily 4chan informed, but it wasn't entirely. It was kind of drew a lot of its spiritual energy from 4chan, Paul Pole and B. And. But it had a character all of its own. And everything that was percolating on that board. They had, they had anointed Donald Trump. 20. This is 2019 Donald Trump. 2018 Donald Trump. This was during the Q and on days. They had anointed him the God Emperor. I don't think he's the God Emperor anymore, by the way, but they had anointed him the God. I'm so happy you know about this.

Jason Mironchuk [00:31:34]:

Stuff, by the way. I think he's transcended the God Emperor. I think he's, he's, he's almost become divinated in some circles. I'm not.

Will Spencer [00:31:43]:

Yeah, yeah, I think he's. Yeah, I think he's, I think he might be right about that. Well, we'll unpack that in a second because I want to chase this thought down before it runs away.

Jason Mironchuk [00:31:52]:

Yeah, yeah.

Will Spencer [00:31:52]:

So they had anointed him the God Emperor for. And it was, it seemed pretty clear to me that, like, well, is this election going to be allowed to stand and. Or is. Is everyone wants to be called the God Emperor until it comes time to do God Emperor stuff. Right. To stand up and say, etc. Etc. Now, again, four years of hindsight. I'm glad things went down the way they did. I'm not trying to. To revise history and I think it was the wisest choice for him to step back. But I remember at the time, again, this was when all the QAnon stuff was going on. There's a lot of conversation about dropping, what, the Epstein client list or something. We'll never see that. But at the times, like, you know, maybe what he'll do again, this is all QAnon stuff. They're going to dump all of the list of all the crazy pedophile sex traffickers into the public and bring it all down. That seemed to be, you know, one of the possible outcomes. And I remember There was a lot of tension in the air, like, what's actually going to happen? I've never been a hardcore prepper, but during those weeks between, I think I would probably say early December, up until the inauguration, I stocked up, and I've got big water jugs and food, and I was like, well, I'm going to, you know, get ready to stay inside my place for several months if I need to, and. And ride this out. Right? So hindsight, it's all very silly, but it all felt very real at the moment, especially because I'd been back in the United States for less than a year at that point in Covid and George Floyd. But then I was thinking about it, and I was like, well, if they were to actually do that, let's say that they were to actually drop. This is in the days before AI, it was still rumored to exist, but, you know, it was still deep. Fakes were kind of a thing. I think they weren't all that believable, not like they are now. But let's just say that you could drop, you know, hardcore, irrefutable evidence of someone significant in a position of power. Who? Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, name it. You know, engaging in a horrific, deplorable, evil act. Like, what would happen if you were to actually do that? What would you see? You would see probably a lot of things. You'd see a lot of the outrage you're describing. You'd see panic. You'd see people's worldviews just crumbling before them, because I think we're not ready to deal with the level of lies that we truly live in society is. Is a nice paint job over a veneer of very many lies that I'm sure, Lord willing, one day when we're all in glory, we'll get to see them be like, praise God for a son Jesus Christ, to deliver us from all that. But until then, I think we don't get to actually see them. And I imagine there are people inside the CIA, the Defense Department, who knows, that have seen much of that stuff, and who knows how they sleep at night. But your thesis is very interesting because I've wondered. I've watched the rise of conspiracy culture in the public. You see, you know, Alex Jones has now been elevated to a position of prominence. You see, Joe Rogan, right, elevated to a position of basically the world's top journalist. I don't know. Right. You see, Ian Carroll, you see, so much of this is now a conspiracy culture, is mainstream culture now, and that's just what it is. And so you're statement has me wondering, are we going to see something like that, Some, some revelation that galvanizes all of these young men in rage towards an intended target. And I think that seems somewhat likely. I mean, I can't say how likely, but the stage is certainly set for that because everyone's talking about what's going to be the next big psyop, is it going to be aliens, is it going to be, you know, Covid 2 or whatever. But the stage is very much set for the revelation of some possibly true truth mixed with lies statement that galvanizes the energy of generations of, of young men, again, the ones that you said, and points them in a direction and unleashes them. That I think is a very real, that's a very real observation, sir.

Jason Mironchuk [00:35:47]:

The, the thing to keep in mind is the adversary doesn't care how they get you. The, the battleground, the spiritual warfare we're engaged in is, is the battleground is your soul.

Will Spencer [00:35:58]:

That's right.

Jason Mironchuk [00:35:59]:

And the adversary doesn't care. It doesn't care if you're right wing or left wing, doesn't care how you vote, doesn't care what denomination you are, doesn't care if he can get you, he can get you. And the, the temptation again with his vengeance, is how it's going to get coded because everything is a set of reactions. So to go back to Gerard, he often uses the, in his eye, his work with a scapegoat and how Christ essentially breaks the scapegoat mechanism. So in the classic sense of scapegoating and sort of mythological structures, the idea would be you, things have gone, things have gone wrong. Right? Rivalry has, has, has, has risen in the, in a community. And now we're approaching all against all violence. So brother against brother. And to, in order to dissipate this violence, a individual or a group will be, will be chosen and, and flagged out and, and all the sins and all the problems of this society will be placed on them. And so when they are sacrificed or expelled, things get better. Because really what you're doing is just reducing the mimetic tension. And this is in the society. So let's say we'll take a classic one like Oedipus, Oedipus Rex, right In the classic mythological structure. Well, Oedipus is guilty of all the things he did right of it. You know, he, he did had relations with his mother and murdered his father. And this, and this created this horrible situation that once he was expelled, suddenly things got better. That's the classical mythical mythological structure. Gerard believes that in sort of anthropology, that these stories are actually based on some truth. Like some guy, some guy was made a scapegoat, sacrifice. In whatever way, things got better, and because of that he becomes deified. And a story is built up around that person because then all of a sudden he's the person who saves society. The introduction of Christ, however, breaks myth because Christ is a perfect victim. Christ is innocent. That is unlike any others. For those people who like to say the Christ is a story, it's like, okay, even if you want to reduce it to. To that, it's unlike any other story ever told before. And that's where it draws its power, that it converted people by the story, by the word, because even pagans who had. Who had never encountered the story before when they were presented before they were presented with it, converted because that story structure is unlike anything that they have ever encountered. A perfect victim changes everything. And the fact that in Christian societies, all your laws, your rights, all. All your principles, all your virtues are all based in that. Based in that sacrifice. So the, so the scapegoat mechanism is broken because the, The. We no longer get the catharsis. And we know. So we can scapegoat. We. We still use it vaccinated, unvaccinated, you know, we can trump, you know, maga people, non maga people, et cetera, et cetera. But there's the. Any kind of catharsis that's. That that people feel is very temporary, it burns itself out because we're haunted by the cross. And I, I've started saying this more openly now. I believe that Christianity has. Has reached a certain level of epigenetics, that it's actually in our, say, spiritual DNA within the people, so that, like, no matter how much you try to separate us from it, you can't. And I think. I think a lot of attempts have been made to break us or make us abandon our responsibilities as image bearer, because that's one thing that we have that no one else or nothing else in creation does to break us from that image. Bear. So we get into transhumanism and a whole bunch of other conversations. But that Darwinian evolution. Yeah, well, and it worked for a bit, and it's not working anymore because people can do the, the napkin math with a little help of Grok and go anyway. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. As you were saying before, it's like, you know, Kirk Cameron used to use the, the eyeball analogy. It's, It's a standard apologetic but now I think a lot more people are being brought to it, going, wait, hang a second. So you're telling me that they're the, A single cell organism somehow developed eyeballs as complex as ours and did it over billions of years and it's remained consistent across multiple species and it always works. And no, no, no, no, I, I, I'm, no, I'm no genius here, but these numbers aren't adding up and it's falling apart.

Will Spencer [00:40:43]:

Well, I, I make the same joke about the sexes. So you're telling me to totally independent creatures evolved in parallel to be compatible and to be able to reproduce, and that just kind of happened by chance, right? Just kind of happened. One go one way and the other went the other way and they just happened to be in alignment. Like, I don't, I don't think that adds up. But again, now that we've come out from underneath the pressure of the devouring mother, right. To bring it back to the thesis, because I think that exerted such a strong pressure over everything. And I really, in a very real sense, do believe that 2024 election, and I, I said this on a podcast recently, was about, you know, the masculine patriarchy, because that it for everything else, Donald Trump is, he is very much a patriarch. He has the Trump family name, the Trump family legacy. He's got, I don't know, how many grandkids does he have? Right. Billionaire, Right. Multiple kids. Yes. And multiple wives. And, but yes, he has still built the Trump family name and Versus Kamala Harris. And Kamala Harris is a childless woman. She's never born a child. Right. And she's, I used to live in San Francisco. She's consistently failed upwards. She didn't even earn her own Democratic Party nomination. A man earned it and then he checked out and handed it to her. Right. As the, as a signature. And so the choice was really about who are we going to go with this end product, the degenerate end product of feminism or a reinstantiation of patriarchy? And the American people overwhelmingly chose patriarchy. And the sigh of relief that I thought was going to happen instead galvanized this spirit of the vengeful son that is now, that's now out to, to take a, to take a scalp. I don't necessarily think that that's an improvement either.

Jason Mironchuk [00:42:30]:

No. Well, we're seeing Satan chasing out Satan. So one of the points I was making about Gerard is that this idea of throwing stones, right. So the first stone is the hardest because there's no model for it. But once the first stone's thrown, the second stone gets easier and the third stone gets easier, and so on and so on and so on. And that's, I think, where we're, we're, what we're watching is we're starting to see stones get thrown from certain groups on the left, we'll call them on the left. It doesn't, I don't know what Luigi's thing is, but we're starting to see the, the attacks on Tesla, all these kind of things right right now, some of these are undeniably organized, but something's going to be organic as well. And the more it's, it, the more that happens, the more you're going to see of it. The, the thing that will also happen, of course, is our reactions. So if you don't want a police state or Panopticon or if you don't want to see digital IDs and all these other things come to come to pass, or let's say, I think they're going to come to pass no matter what, because the conversation's gone past that and it's been past that for a long time. But if you want to see them applied in, let's say, more judicious ways and less across the board tyrannical, then the, the, what you don't want to do is get into that reaction because all their actions beget certain reactions. Like, just think of the Tesla thing. So you have these people who are terrorizing Tesla's cars like you're, you're essentially making the world's richest man who, whose buddy is Donald Trump, whose sitting in the White House and has access to all this information and all this data, plus the Tesla cars have cameras on them. This is what you're doing. That's pretty stupid. But yeah, there they go, right? And it's, I think it's, it's begging the reaction. And this is where we get into that discernment between justice and vengeance. And I believe that Elon Musk, for example, and I've. So I've been developing this, this, this concept since 2020 or 2023. And what I started seeing with Elon, you know, when he was on stage there and he, he told Bob Iger to go f himself and, you know, saying, you're, you're gonna threaten me with money? That to me, that's vengeful, son. So part of my analysis in this is that this age we're entering into is an age of total violence. So when we think of violence, we often think of kinetic, right? Physical violence. What I'm starting to see is that this violence will not just be kinetic, it'll be in all forms. The violence itself will be violence of tearing it down, burning it if we have to. Like, if we can't be. If we can't save it, we can't restructure it, tear it down. I started seeing this with Gamestonks, the Gamestonk thing, or the GameStop hedge funds that happened in 2021. And I can't find the. I keep kind of trying to find the, the quote, but I stuck with me. They were asking at the time, one of the guys who were one of the heads of the gamestock holders, you know, they said to him something along the lines of, you know, if you keep holding these stocks, you're going to lose all your money. And his response was, I don't care. It's not about making money. It's about hurting the hedge funds, because those are the guys who hurt my dad in 2008. I was like, what is that? I followed that away and like, interesting box. And that keeps coming back up. We just saw all the, the free fall in the, in the, in the stock market recently. And what did. A lot of responses, A lot of people online, especially from Gen Z people just laughter. People crying about their 401ks and very worried about their investments. And a lot of people just started laughing.

Will Spencer [00:46:19]:

Yeah, pull your. Pull yourself up there. But bootstraps, Grandpa. Learn to code.

Jason Mironchuk [00:46:23]:

Right? And to me, that's just violence. That's violence of a kind, you know, and it's. Once you start applying that. So kids online don't have to go punch someone. They can, they can ruin your life from a keyboard or, you know, our wage economic war, a wage, you know, meme wars. And, and do you know, now with AI, who knows what they can do with that? And so we're entering this age again where we no longer have the breaks in society. We no longer have the, the, the proper discernment between what is justice and what is vengeance. Those two things are going to get intermixed, both sides. Everyone is going to start saying that, no, my, my vengeance is justice and their justice is vengeance, and that we get that all against all kind of kind of situation. So we'll see how that plays out. Well, the interesting note, of course, is Peter Thiel, who was Rangerard's top student. And so he knows what inside out. Yeah, yeah. What? Yeah, Top, top. Soon read Luke Burgess's book Wanting. It starts off with an interview with Peter Thiel. So pull that up real quick. Yeah, Luke Burgess, he'd be someone you should, should have a chat with. And he. So I've been following Peter Thiel with a bunch of interest which led me looking into PayPal mafia and I told my friend Matt Erickson over at K King Pilled about that he did a whole bunch of research and that started off again around 2023 and, and he's built up this whole hero suit which has led us down many, many different, different avenues of looking into things. But essentially it's this is that you have Peter Thiel who is the behind the scenes guy. Let's say Elon Musk is the forward facing along. A lot of people are, A lot of kids are modeling Elon Musk. All the VC guys are all modeling. Peter Thiel. Yeah. Homosexual, sure. But also Christian. I'm not quite sure. His domination I've. I know he's. I think. Yeah, well yes and no. Yes and no. Because look Father Sarah from Rose. One of my. He's blessed. Sarah from Rose. I'd be pleased you'll be making. Made into a saint fairly soon. He was a hero monk in the Orthodox Church. He was, he was a repentant homosexual. Sure. Who wrote some of the greatest modern orthodox books and has been a, has been a guiding light to many who are finding the way to Orthodoxy especially so.

Will Spencer [00:49:07]:

Oh yeah, Nihilism. Nihilism is a fantastic book. The key is that repentant homosexual. But we can, we can. Yeah, there's a. Yeah, so we can, we can, we can avoid that rabbit hole. But, but continue with Peter Thiel.

Jason Mironchuk [00:49:18]:

So yeah, Peter Thiel over here who's again repentant, unrepentant homosexual. We'll, we'll leave that to him and his priest. I know he's, he is, he is certainly Christian. I'm not quite sure what his, his denomination is, was or will be. Interesting thing about Peter Thiel however as well is that he was, he was the closest clerk for Anton Scalia and he had a very, very close relationship with Anton Scalia. Anton everything. Yeah, well Anton Scalia was. Passed away under dubious circumstances wet works at the ranch.

Will Spencer [00:49:57]:

Do you know that reference?

Jason Mironchuk [00:49:59]:

Oh my goodness. Anton Scalia was, he's sort of an order of Catholic. He's. He was, he's a very, very devout Catholic. So you have Rennie Gerard. Peter Thiel is his top student. In fact Rennie Gerard only, only was a PhD mentor for one student and that was Peter Thiel. Ray Gerard, Roman Catholic. Anton Scalia also high up in the Catholic Orders mentored Peter Thiel, and from what I understand, very father son relationship. Peter Thiel now has done mentorship with JD Vance y. Mark, Matt Gates and. And Mark Zuckerberg to the point where there are emails out there where Peter Thiel was talking to Mark Zuckerberg saying that Mark Zuckerberg. Mark Zuckerberg is going to be Mr. Millennial. He's going to be the Millennial model. And this is before.

Will Spencer [00:51:07]:

Is he really?

Jason Mironchuk [00:51:08]:

This is before Mark went away and came back out with longer hair and wearing the skirt and drink. The chorus. Like, really, people are being maneuvered. So in Gerardian memetics, Gerard points out two things, right? You can be a model. There are models. So people who model behavior and people who. They. People want to be like them. So they do everything like them, they dress like them, they whatever. Right. There's also moderators or mediators. Gerard uses the example of Iego in Othello. So Iego is not modeling Othello or Othello's not modeling Iego, but Iego is directing him to what he should want. You should desire this and you should desire that, and this is who you should model. And isn't that interesting over here and stuff that Peter Thiel, of course, is involved with. Palantir, one of the Rumble is basically one of his cutouts. Paler is now being onboarded throughout the entire US Government through Gro, because GRO is now part of. Yeah. So get ready for it.

Will Spencer [00:52:21]:

This explains a lot. That Peter Thiel would be the moderator. Right. And he's setting Elon Musk up as the model. And. And don't even. Elon Musk, Donald Trump and J.D. vance. I think the three of them together. The only reason why I don't. Well, maybe Trump has ascended from God Emperor. I think he's kind of just stepped away and he. He allows Vance and Musk up front to draw the fire. And he just is off doing his Art of the Deal thing, which I think he probably is enjoying doing more than, you know, being the outspoken figurehead that he was from 2016 to 2020. So I can see.

Jason Mironchuk [00:53:01]:

Look, just look at J.D. vance and Mark Zuckerberg. Two different people. Very different. Right, one Republican right wing, one liberal left wing. But they're both millennials. Yeah. J.D. vance, Catholic Intermarriage within. With. With a Indian woman. But whatever. I don't like to involve people's families. But just from the JD Vance model, there's gonna be a lot of people modeling JD Vans. Yes, the memes. All these memes out There. Yeah. That's not an accident. No, none of this is by accident. Mark Zuckerberg has gone away a little bit. I think you're going to see a lot of. You're going to see a lot of Mark very soon, and he's going to be the new model for left wing millennials and left wing zoomers.

Will Spencer [00:53:47]:

I think you're right. Left wing, particularly. I think you're right about that.

Jason Mironchuk [00:53:50]:

Liberal, whatever. Yeah.

Will Spencer [00:53:52]:

Liberal, yeah. This is so, this is so interesting because I, I can see and I can more importantly, feel all of this. I haven't read Gerard, but that seems like. That seems like something that I need to fix. I've certainly heard a lot about him and I've picked up environmentally a lot of. A lot of his ideas. And I, And I feel this moving through X. And what's so interesting about X is you said, you said earlier that. I forget how you phrased it, but it used to be that when you approach certain subjects of discussion in social media, you would get shut down, lose your account, get banned or whatever. That has changed. And maybe there was a moment of exuberance where X had become kind of the Wild west, in a good way, but now what it's become is rather than being censored, the narrative is driven. So the narrative is used to be constrained to a very narrow range. Now it's completely wide open, for better and for worse, much for worse. But instead you have armies of accounts. Who knows if they're real, who knows if they're feds, who knows if they're paid, who knows it, whatever they are. The narrative is driven in particular ways. And the explosion of the Vance memes was like, yeah, it was fun. A lot of those were. A lot of those are pretty cool.

Jason Mironchuk [00:55:11]:

Yeah.

Will Spencer [00:55:12]:

The. One of the, the one of the girl, the. The famous girl on the COVID of National Geographic, the, The Pakistani girl with the red head covering that famous National Geographic photo.

Jason Mironchuk [00:55:21]:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Will Spencer [00:55:22]:

And that one, that was probably my favorite, just for all that, all the different reasons. But I think the first time that I spotted something like that that I thought was weird was. I think it would have been about two years ago. A meme went absolutely wild through X and Instagram, probably for YouTube too, where it was, how often does your man think about the Roman Empire? Do you remember that?

Jason Mironchuk [00:55:46]:

Yeah. And.

Will Spencer [00:55:47]:

And I was like, I never think about the Roman Empire. But like, if you just. How often, like. But there were. And look, maybe it started out as, you know, as a harmless plank prank for, for men to play on their wives and girlfriends. Because the whole joke was that women couldn't imagine that men were thinking about the Roman Empire that often. It's like, yeah, I think about it all the time. They're like, what, what are you thinking about? Right.

Jason Mironchuk [00:56:09]:

But I think about it all the time.

Will Spencer [00:56:11]:

Do you actually think about it all the time?

Jason Mironchuk [00:56:12]:

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Will Spencer [00:56:13]:

Oh, okay. I, I never think about the Roman Empire.

Jason Mironchuk [00:56:15]:

I'm also, I'm also an observant orthodox Christian. So, you know, Byzantium is kind of often kind of a topic of conversation that kind of gets brought up as soon some. Somewhere down the line. Right, that makes sense. But yeah, no, I think people, I think a lot of men especially, I think right wing dissident men think about the Roman Empire often. Really? Yeah, yeah, I've been around those guys.

Will Spencer [00:56:38]:

And we didn't talk about it often, but I don't know, maybe it's me.

Jason Mironchuk [00:56:41]:

One of my guests on that come have come on quite often now, especially from Smart, my live shows is my friend Charles Spadill. And he made an amazing observation. He said that men are romantics who are posing as pragmatics and women are pragmatics posing as romantics. Basically saying that the masculine spirit is actually much more romantic and the feminine spirit is much more pragmatic. And when you hear that and yeah, right. You see, as soon as you hear that you go. It's pretty spot on. Right?

Will Spencer [00:57:14]:

Yeah.

Jason Mironchuk [00:57:14]:

And so, so when, so when you examine these things, it's that the feminine spirit is actually. We start to see this actually. So over the last 60 years we're starting to see this in even our, in, in architecture. So we've gone from making banks beautiful places and all these old libraries which were gorgeous and exterior and interior, just beautiful things, into Grace Labs. A good example is McDonald's, right? Something that you can track. It's novel, right? From the 80s McDonald's to the current McDonald's where you go in and there was playpens and it was. McDonald's had a distinct vibe, had a distinct look and you knew where you were. And now it's just a gray slab that you walk in. There's terminals. Now here's the thing is that that's actually far more pragmatic. It's cheaper to make. It's uniform no matter where you're at. It's, it's created its own identity within itself. But it's, it's, you know, you know, McDonald's, Starbucks, whatever, it's all the same thing. There's a pragmatism to that, but there's no romanticism in it. And I think once you, once you lean too far into that, you begin to denature meaning out of society. So I've come up this concept of civilizational capital and it's, you know, it's based on this idea that human beings need, need something to invest in and they'll, they'll invest in it for free as long as that civilization mirrors them. So the reason why we, we build beautiful things in civilization is not because it's rational. It's certainly not pragmatic. It's actually irrational. It creates a new super rationality where the, where because the civilization is exalted, we feel exalted by living in it. So we, we feel, we, we give the civilization meaning and the meaning and the civilization gives us meaning and we kind of vibe off that becomes, it becomes that paradox. The other thing that I, that kind of is attached to this. Just to bring it back to modeling for a second, another. I'm doing all my greatest hits here, kids.

Will Spencer [00:59:16]:

Let's go.

Jason Mironchuk [00:59:17]:

So a throwaway prediction that I made, I called it Jason's apple pie prediction, but now I've made it the, the neo Trads prediction, which is that we're, and we're starting to see this now happen rapidly that once the woke is put away or becomes something of a derision, we're going to see a normalization process happen. And the next thing that's going to happen, the next thing that'll come out of it is this neotrats sort of a neo traditional cultural movement that's going to involve both the left and the right because it's not going to get rid of a lot of woke primary principles, we want to call it that. It's just going to give them a new facade. So you're going to see, you know, homosexuals will still be around. Gay pride will be much more reduced if, if it's still around be a much more like Will and Grace, like so sensible, you know, gays in, in gay men in sweater vests still, still buying children, but you know, more like Dave Rubin. The other thing I predicted was that, and this is sort of a reverse prediction is that you'll start seeing a lot of these only fan women start to, you know, start wearing sundresses or you know, sensible frocks and making apple pies. And the reason I saw that is that I somewhere back in again, 2023, I started looking at all these cooking shows that started popping up and these women in sort of traditional garb, sometimes with head scarves, making traditional apple pies. And they were getting millions and millions of views on tick tock and Instagram. And some of the comments were the standard like how this is anti feminist and stuff like that. But most of it was like yum, apple piece. And there's no resistance to it. So you take that memetic thing where now that's being modeled and people are going to want that. And we're just starting to see Nyla Ray, who's the, was the number one only fans girl for a very long time is now the cooking show making apple pies. So and this is being coordinated. This isn't. Some of it's organic, some of it's a flipping of natural desires. But I think a lot of it is being triangulated and presented as the new, as a new sort of landing pad for culturally, for the, for the center. And you're going to get this sort of mushy Christianity coming out of it which is, you know, gets us into this interesting time of conversations where I think the we, we, we, we can almost put aside the debates with secular humanism. They're still gonna, still going to happen. But the secular humanists and that whole nominalist school that's almost done now, it's being put up on trial but its days are numbered. The next thing we're gonna have to contend with is charlatans within the church. And you something that you said before and that's the worrying trend because you know that's where a lot of people are going to get in there. A lot of Christian influencers. And we're starting to see this crop up where they're just, you know, I call them venerate. You know, they venerate Bob Christ. I don't know who this Christ is they keep talking about. It sounds like a swell guy but. But I'm not quite sure it's where they're getting a lot of this stuff from. And, and you're going to see a lot of day one Christians who get sucked into a lot of this stuff who you know are going to start tisking people. And look, you and I both have our history. I, I don't like to throw stones because, you know, I'm maybe day two. So who, who am I? But at the same time I still see that present danger that if you get your theology wrong or if you're getting off on the wrong foot and getting sucked into. I think a lot of people desire transcendence. They desire. True, they desire to repent. They desire. They desire all those things that they will. That the Christian church offers, but they'll settle on forgiveness because they don't really actually want to do the hard things. They don't really want to repent. They just want to confess. And they'll, and they'll. And so they'll take the surface level of things and not get. And not do the harder, deeper things, which. Realizing that this is a, A daily, an hourly, a continuous thing, you don't just, you know, get dunked in the water and you're good.

Will Spencer [01:03:41]:

Right.

Jason Mironchuk [01:03:42]:

There's still work to be done, so.

Will Spencer [01:03:44]:

Right.

Jason Mironchuk [01:03:45]:

So, yeah, but I think we're starting to see that now. I, I made that prediction a while back, and I, I don't go through a day or week without people bringing it up to me going, see, I'm like, yeah, I know.

Will Spencer [01:03:55]:

Yeah, yeah, it's. I mean, that's, that's the whole thing that I've been saying about Russell Brand. It's like, hey, look, right? Praise God. Happy for. Happy for the guy, right? I, I think he. I think he believes he's sincere. I think he really. I think he. I think he really does. I don't think that he's lying. I think that there have been other liars out there. Like, I wasn't paying attention to the whole Kanye west thing. People got very worked up about that. That did not end up in a good place.

Jason Mironchuk [01:04:20]:

That's a different conversation altogether.

Will Spencer [01:04:22]:

Exactly. Right. So, but I, I've looked at Russell, Brandon. I've said this continually. Like, look, the real risk of him is that he'll come in and, and despite himself, you know, again, the man's a multimillionaire. He can pick up the phone and call anybody. So it's not as if. And he could just shut it all down. And he can be good for several weeks, you know, and go away to go read a book or read the Bible, get discipleship, ask questions, right? So this is not a man who lacks for time or resources to go and learn. So the real risk is someone like that, maybe perhaps even against their own knowledge, will come into a position of authority. Russell brand has 11 million followers on X alone. One platform. 11 million. If you take all the major Christian influencers that you and I probably know and add them all up together, we might get to like a million, Right? Or maybe we'll get to two, right? And so. And then you multiply it by, you know, 3, 5, 10 even, and you get to Russell Brands. That's one guy. So he comes in and starts talking about being a Christian for several months, which he's been doing since. I think it's been August, something like that. He got baptized, you know, just casually by some. By some friends and. Okay, fine.

Jason Mironchuk [01:05:37]:

As you do, you know, as you.

Will Spencer [01:05:38]:

As you do. Well, look, I was. I was baptized by friends. You know, they were. They were members of the church, lifelong believers. They'd set up a ministry at Burning Man. So, you know, whatever. Right. But. But the first thing that I did.

Jason Mironchuk [01:05:48]:

Was I said, it could have been done with squirt gun. Did you see those during COVID when Catholic church. Catholic priests were baptizing babies with squirt guns. I was like, no, I didn't see that.

Will Spencer [01:06:01]:

Pretty sure that's not how you do that. That's. Oh, actually, no, it's coming to me now. I do remember. I'd like. That has to be a joke. Sadly, it wasn't. No.

Jason Mironchuk [01:06:10]:

So.

Will Spencer [01:06:11]:

So. But then it's like, what did. What did he do after that? Like, did you. Did he go join a church? Did he try to understand this new thing that he come to? My first instinct was three things. Well, I'm a Christian now, so that means I go to church. It means I pray on my knees, you know, by the bed before I go to bed, because that's what Christians do. And I forgive as I've been forgiven. All the churches were closed when I became a Christian, by the way. Why did I know to do these things? Because that's what Christians do. Right. And so. But I didn't stop pursuing. Didn't think that I just understood the faith just because I'd gotten baptized. And I think the risk of a Russell Brand is that it doesn't seem to me that he's pursuing really trying to understand any aspects of the historical faith from any tradition. And yet he stands up and says things like he just did today, Yesterday. You know, we need to have a conversation about lgbt, because this is a subject that Jesus cares about. Indeed, it is a subject that Jesus cares about. But would you like to know what it is that Jesus said about this particular topic? Because we have. We have it written here, but I don't think that's the.

Jason Mironchuk [01:07:13]:

The case.

Will Spencer [01:07:13]:

Right. And even setting aside someone like Russell Brand to come in a celebrity is like, I'm a Christian, and I think abortion is cool. And you know that I'm a Christian because I've been saying it for a couple years, and a lot of people like, well, he's a. They said they're a Christian. And I don't know what these other crazy fundamentalists are on about. And so that's, that's the, that's. And so I, I, I'm grateful that you spotted it as well. This risk that the, the only way to subvert the church from the inside. I mean, it's already been so heavily infected by various New age doctrines. And, you know, if you want to kick over a hive, just. Schofield. Oh, yeah, Scoffield, Bobby. Yoga. The Enneagram. Like, come on. Right, so that's already in there. And so I think the stage has been set for people to come in and make big professions of faith that a lot of people are like, oh my gosh, they're saved. Like, okay, I'm going to listen to you, and I'm not going to listen to, listen to my pastor, my priest, or that stodgy old Bible that I got hanging out over there.

Jason Mironchuk [01:08:10]:

I think the number one thing we got to be very careful, be very mindful of and fight against whenever we start seeing it is, is that sort of creeping of Gnosticism as a, as a nice little, or even hermetics, is that smuggling in of this desire that you think that prayer is, prayer is magical. If you pray to God the right way, you get a million dollars or you'll be, you know, your movie will get made or whatever have you. Right, right. And that sort of gnostic tendency towards the one. Right. Reduce everything down to the one. We're a trinitarian religion at the, at the core of it. And the Trinity breaks both the dyad dialectics and gets rid of this whole sense of, of, of oneness. There's oneness of God, there's, we're brought together within the church. We're made whole in the church. There, there, there's, there's language there that I think people can easily get deceived by. But this idea that we're, we all came from one being, you know, and this, this planet is a prison that we're trying to get rid, we're trying to escape from. Even just for the, you know, the homosexual kind of conversation, it's that there's room to understand it, that, that the, the thing that we're, we're at war with is the passions. So the passions of lust, for example, that's this, the seed of sin, right? That's where this, this will be produced from. And so we, we can look for that, that, those, that, that passion of lust, heterosexuals, homosexuals, whoever has it now within homosexuality, it's that it, it's that it's, that's all lust. There's. It's all lust, it's all pride. It's all mirroring oneself. It's love of oneself, it's self love to the, you know, that's, that's carried out to another individual of oneself. So that's despite all the other concerns about, about the, the practice. That's what we have to be looking for and warring against. That's. And that's common for heterosexuals and homosexuals and everyone else alike. But that's the conversation that no one, no one really wants to have because everyone wants to have their lust and eat it too.

Will Spencer [01:10:21]:

Right?

Jason Mironchuk [01:10:21]:

You know, they, they want their passions. They don't want to give up their pride. They don't really want to confront their vain glory. They don't really want to get challenged on any fundamental level. They just want to be forgiven and they just want to. And they want to find some passage and go, well, look, right, Jesus would forgive them. It's like, yes, but you have to return repentance and work towards redemption. That repent thing is really important. It's supposed to change you. You're supposed to be a different person, you know, than you were before. Like, it's a, it's a big catalyst. It's a, it's a big one. And if you don't have that, I don't know what to do. Like, I don't, I don't know what to tell you. You're just going to keep producing the same awful results and then try to convince everyone else that's perfectly fine. It's like, it's. No, it's not fine. And look, it's not. You're not affecting my life directly or, you know, maybe in, in sort of auxiliary ways, but I just feel it's, it's more like I just feel real sad for you. You know, I feel really, really sad for those people because they're, they've been given the suffering and their suffering is, is, is obvious. Some of us don't know our suffering yet. Sometimes you're going to find your suffering down the road. But other people have been given that suffering for, you know, pretty obviously and it's something that they can confront and deal with. But if the rest of society and everyone else and even the church begins to condone it and doesn't allow them to confront it, doesn't allow them to have true repentance so they can be redeemed through, through Christ and understand that, that this, their condition is a, is a Condition of suffering. But there's, there's, there's still hope, you know, there's still love. There's. There's just still things you can, you can still life there. I think you just opened up the doorways for nihilism again. Like, and, and how is that, how is that a Christian message? How is that, how is that good? Who is that serving? No one. Right. And again, I think it's just. You condone these sins so you don't have to confront your own always.

Will Spencer [01:12:31]:

I want to, I want to take that, and I think that's a great observation about lust being something, a sin that we all struggle with and bring it back to young men's anger. Because I think it's a similar. That you're talking about controlling the passions. And we can be sanctified of lust and we can be sanctified of anger as well. And I think that that's such an important, important message to, to have to learn how to rejoice in all circumstances. And that, that is the New Testament. Job provides a great example. You know, Job is. The entire book is. Is everyone accusing him, his own friends accusing him, until finally, after he's lost way more than many young men today have lost, he finally breaks at the end, and then God puts him in his place and lifts him up and, and then redeems him. But the idea that we allow our anger to sanctify us, to make us holy, not to turn it into a weapon that we wield against ourselves, which I think causes depression, or to wield it against other people, which causes damage in our relationships, or to wield it against the world, which is what we're talking about. Like, yes. How do we acknowledge for young men, look, your anger is legitimate, right? I think in many ways I understand the fear feeling. I understand the impulse. And I'm not telling you that you're wrong to feel that way. However, the desire to take the anger and then do damage and destruction with it, that is something that you need to be sanctified of. And on the other side of that process, on the other side of submitting to God's sovereignty and the circumstances of your life, that's where you find true peace, true freedom, the peace that surpasses understanding. And that is the Christian message. That. That is the Christian. Please go ahead.

Jason Mironchuk [01:14:14]:

Father Tuber Qualls once said something on Buck Johnson's show Counterflow, which I urge any of your listeners and perhaps you to check out. And again, I'm not trying to drag people towards orthodoxy. I'm just. These are things that have hit me and have helped me. So Father Turbo said that. That depression is actually a form of vainglory. Because really what you're sad about is things not working out the way that you want them to. You know, like you wanted something and God isn't delivering and something's not happening the way you want it. So now you're sad, which is just a different reaction to getting angry about it. So this desire for vengeance and this even anger itself is rooted in self, love, in pride, then glory, which, let's say vainglory, is the external presentation of pride and pride is internal. So when we wrestle with our pride and we begin to practice and. And try to get humble in every way we're gonna. You automatically, you begin to decrease your anger because really what you're angry about is things didn't work out the way you wanted them to. I want more. I want. I'm deserving more. I'm so good. Why didn't I. Why. Why don't I have my house or this or that or the million dollars, a big contract? I need these things. I should have these things. And I'm angry that I don't have them. They didn't work out and I was lied to. I was this. I was like, yes, you were. But you believe the lie because you wanted the thing. And you believe the lie because the lie exalts you. Didn't lie, tell you how great you were or how great you would be if you had that piece of paper or you did the thing, whatever. So when we address our pride, we return. We repent. Redeem the just to return. So again, that story of the prodigal son. The prodigal son's brought low and is about to eat the food of the pigs. He's been humiliated. He's been brought low. And in. In that moment, there's a moment of humility saying, I will return to the. My father, who I've turned my back on, and ask for his forgiveness in hopes that he'll take me back and at least make me work his fields with no desire to be anything else but that. And when we return to the Father, he embraces with love, exalts us. Return, repent, Redeem. Return, repent. Redeem. And I. When I say redeem, it doesn't mean that we will be redeemed automatically. It's. It's. It's again, it's a performative action, right? It's a cycle. Every day, right? Every day we're returning and we're Repenting. Wake up in the morning, you say your morning prayers. There you go, you're returning, right? You're repenting. Repenting of your future sins. Even you can only. You're basically saying, lord, I know I'm going to screw up, but please have mercy on me. I'm a sinner and hopes that every day you get a little bit better and you confront a bit more and you find a bit more humility and you address that pride, you address that vain glory and all these other things that are attached to it. I think especially anger and sadness are really attached to that sense of. And I'm not talking about mourning and. And let's say, yeah, different anger. You know, I think anger can be a great alarm sometimes. You. You're damn right you should get angry about something. But also realize that oftentimes what we're getting angry about is this is a sense of slight. And again, it comes down to who. Who do you think you are? Why do you think you. You're deserved of anything? Our Lord God himself comes down for us, is whipped, scorned, deceived, betrayed, spit upon everything. Go back. You know, I urge people. I just re. Watched the Passion of the Christ for the first time like whatever, 10, 15 years. And that segment of. Of Christ, you know, being. Walking to Calvary. And it hits you different sometimes, I think, especially around this time of year, and realize that, like, every time you're getting angry because someone said, someone mean about you online. There's your model. So what are you upset about? Yeah. What's your slight. What. What have you been through really? What have you. What are you suffering really? Yeah. You think of what the suffering of. Of his mother having to sit, having to stand there and watch. And she knew. She knew his entire life was what was going to happen, and yet she had to let it happen because she. Because she was called a higher purpose, that kind of suffering for both men and women. There's your models.

Will Spencer [01:19:16]:

Yeah.

Jason Mironchuk [01:19:17]:

And I think that gives you again, that context of whenever you are feeling slighted. And I'm not saying, yeah, I can't speak to everyone. I don't know what's going on in your life. You know, I'll say these things like, no, I'm justified and stuff like, sure, talk to your priest, you know, who. Again, who am I? But I would also. I know what's worked in my life is every time now, I feel that I'm like, yeah, okay, calm down there, buddy. Like, you know, you're. You're not so high and mighty, you're not so great. So maybe calm down a little bit and, and take it a bit, you know, and, and again, it doesn't mean to let everyone walk all over you. I think that's this passive Christian model that is, I think has been too popularized as well. Yeah, but again, there's that discernment. And for many of us, because we, we lack those good models, it's going back to the church, finding a good church father, finding a good priest, finding good mentorship and building that discernment up for ourselves and passing that down to our kids.

Will Spencer [01:20:23]:

Okay, so I want to, I want to play, play the counter advocate, not the devil's advocate, but the counter advocate here and say, okay, so here are two Gen X guys, they're sitting here talking about this and we just don't understand because, you know, Gen X is just one step really removed from boomers. You don't understand me as a, whatever young generation Z man, you don't understand my situation. You're 20 plus years removed from me. Men have been slighted and et cetera, et cetera. Like, you just, you just don't get it, old man. Because that is, that is part of the spirit, right? That is part of the spirit, not just to, not just to disappear to within its own sphere of self pity and to emerge with righteous indignation over its lot in life at the most comfortable time in human history. But it's also a rebellion from anyone who's older, in a position of authority who disagrees. They'll agree with men that are older. They'll like, if an older man, same place of say, Gen X man says, you know what, young man, you're right. It's like, yeah, I like that guy. But if, if an older, wiser man, you know, says, you know, of the same age, not even wiser, a different guy says, hey, you need, you have something there that you need to be sanctified of. Oh, you just, you just don't understand. So, so what's the response to that? Because there is, there is a hatred going up the generational chain.

Jason Mironchuk [01:21:44]:

Hey man, we're. Our generation is part of the problem. What are you talking about? Like I'm part of the problem. I modeled all the worst behaviors for you, for you kids. Atheist, iconoclast, you know, fornicator, all, you know, all, all the things, all the fun stuff, did all that stuff and now I'm pulling up, now I'm pulling that ladder up behind me, aren't I right? Oh no, not for you. Oh, those Things are bad. Right? Get, get yourself to church, young one. Don't avoid all that fun stuff. So I, I get it here. So again, let's get that, let's get back to that redemption. Because everyone wants to blame the boomers, right? Everyone likes blaming the boomers. And once the boomers are gone, they're going to blame us. Are they gonna blame the next person or whatever have you. And again, with possibly very good reasons.

Will Spencer [01:22:32]:

They are the kids of Generation X, are they not? They're like the youngest kids of boomers and the oldest kids.

Jason Mironchuk [01:22:37]:

Kids of Generation X. Yeah, I guess. Yeah. Some of that, I think, because it's a millennial Gen X kind of mixing. Yeah. Zoomers would probably be. Again, another quote from my buddy Charles Spideille was that that the, the, this revolution we're going to start seeing is a gen. A Gen X head on a Gen Z body. And that'll be very interesting to be to behold. I think we're starting to see that as well. Pass. Yeah. Yeah. Hell hath no score like the hell hath no fury like an iconoclast scorned. But the. So, okay, here's a, here's a little personal story. So like I said before at the start, my mother and father divorced when I was very young. When I saw my, my birth father John, throughout my, throughout my life, I stopped talking to him around 22, 21, 22, because we didn't have a relationship there. And I never had any real animosity towards him. That's just the way things are. But in. My daughter was born in 2020, we're going, we went into basically second lockdowns in Montreal and I had the hand injury and all that stuff. So I was out of work, I was getting disability pay. And for that first year and for most of her life since then, but just in that first year, I spent every single waking hour with her for one solid year plus. And I realized somewhere in that, in that time period that I had spent more time with my daughter just in terms of hours. Right. With my daughter in that one year than my, than my father had spent with me my entire life.

Will Spencer [01:24:19]:

Wow.

Jason Mironchuk [01:24:20]:

And that hit me with sort of that I, and I realized that I had essentially redeemed my dad, I, my birth father, because without him, I wouldn't have been, I wouldn't be, and without me, my daughter wouldn't be. And then just in that act of, of giving myself over to my daughter for that year because, because of the situation, I, I, in my mind, I redeemed My dad, because just by being a better father, by. By honoring the office of the Father and, and taking it on fully and, and take. And being very serious about it. And I've hopefully been practicing that ever since. I redeem him. I redeem the idea of him. I redeem the office of the Father through me in my own little way, you know, from. From myself. So I would say to the zoomer who's. Who has that. Who has those criticisms, And I think they're. I think they're. They're just. They have an opportunity here to do the hard thing. The easy thing is to blame and say, I didn't get the things I wanted, you know, and, and screw those guys. The hard thing is to go, okay, well, how do I do better than them? And that by doing better than them doesn't mean the success part. This is the Andrew Tate problem. This is materialism thing. How many bucattis can you have? It's not about success and money and all, and all those other things. And again, maybe easy for me to say, but. But it isn't that. It's. It's. How do you. How do you reclaim the idea of man, Right? How do you reclaim the office of masculinity and redeem it and make masculinity great again? Truly great? How do you make the office of the father, the office of the husband, the office of the son great again? The one thing that. That we never give up is that so, you know, I was. I was a son, or I am a son, I then become a husband and I become a father. So I. All those categories have a slate of duties and responsibilities, and you try to fulfill them as best you can, you know, or as presented to you. And as you move up through this hierarchy of, of position, let's say you don't give up the old. You. You carry it forward, and you carry forward to these new positions. So if you are a really good son, you're going to be much better positioned to be being a really good husband. And you would be much better positioned, if you're a really good husband, to be a very good father. So you kind of want to try to max out in those categories as much as you can and realize that, especially when you're married, where you're doing the father, you're doing the father and the husband thing at the same time, right? But you're trying to. You're trying to be good at both, and that's very difficult, and I get it wrong all the time, but it's the Attempt. Right. It's the, it's the earnest attempt. And getting better at it is, is just getting better at it. And again, you redeem the, the office of, of the, of the husband. The husband even has been hollowed out, has been made a mockery of, has been. You know, maybe that's what the true sin, the boomers, is, that these, these categories of man have been denatured. So redeem them. Be the good father. I dare you. Be better than me. Sure. Because here's a nice thing too, and maybe this is something you can throw the seculars a little bit, is that you, you live eternally through your children. There, There are elements of my grandfather, who is my surrogate father, that are alive in me. I, if you watch the show at all, I make some, you know, from some quotes from him that are a bit funny, whatever, but. But there's other things that are from him that are in me. And I know, I know they're from, from him that are in me. I know exactly what those parts are. And maybe I'll translate that to my daughter, but either way, she's going to receive it as from me. And so there'll be parts of me living in her, and that goes down the line. So all the good parts get saved and all the bad parts get whisked away or, you know, therapy, doubt or whatever. So you want your children to retain the best of you and carry that forward because elements of you will survive, survive in them and will, and they'll survive in their future children, you know, and so on and so on. So in, in a sense, you live forever. Elements of you get to live forever in your children, but only the best of you will hopefully. Well, the bad traits will be there too, but the bad traits are not something that they want. They don't want that. Right. They want to get rid of that.

Will Spencer [01:29:25]:

Discipline it out of them.

Jason Mironchuk [01:29:27]:

Right.

Will Spencer [01:29:28]:

But you get to see them first.

Jason Mironchuk [01:29:30]:

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So. So that's the, that's the aim, you.

Will Spencer [01:29:35]:

Know, I want to put together then a couple of pieces that you said. So, so I agree with you, to be the, to be the husband, father, son that redeems your own husband, your own father. Right. So I want to put that together with the concept of the, the vengeful son, because that's where a lot of these young men are. And I want to put that together with the idea that men are romantics masquerading as pragmatists, and women are pragmatists masquerading as romantics. So if A woman, if women are truly pragmatic. And I believe that there's a lot of truth to that. And you see these vengeful young men that have this unsanctified anger. I think my hope had always been that these young men, they just need a family to invest in. Like you just, you just need it. You need a wife and kids to siphon off all of this excess energy that you're projecting into being extremely online. And they'll make sure that you don't have the time to get so wrapped up in that, at least for a while. Right. But I think what's happening is the, the. Well, two things. One is that you have young women going far more liberal. Now. That's a, that's a pretty thoroughly documented trend. But even setting that aside, I think young women are looking at a lot of these guys who are becoming extremely online or developing these vengeful tendencies. And they're looking at it. And their pragmatic spirit is looking at the, say, misguided romanticism, the romanticism of revolution in these young men. And they're like, e. Right. And then maybe they're not going as a. Okay, you disagree? Okay, great. So let's, let's, let's hear it.

Jason Mironchuk [01:31:18]:

We're on a tipping point in many parts. And let's look at Europe. Europe isn't. Is in a very, very bad place. Yeah, it is. So part of my work has been predicting this bond market collapse that we're about to see, I think next month. Oh. So we're going to see. And it's going to really hit Europe really hard. So the offshore dollar, it's all the economic stuff we've been seeing over the last little bit, the tariffs and all that stuff is, that's cover for what's. What I, what I, and I reported on. But many other people have, have been researching and have been calling, calling out for years now. So this is always going to happen. It's. It was an inevitability. It was a mathematical inevitability. There was. It's just going to happen when that begins to happen. Now look at, let's just look at the uk well, you've imported all these people. There's great animosity. There's violence in the streets. Right. The vengeful sun's right there. You can say that's an animating spirit for a lot of these immigrants who come over with a ship on their shoulder about west, about Westerners, and they're carrying out some vengeance. We could go that way. Right. Just correct A narrative. Either way, things are really bad and they're gonna. And they're about to get a lot worse. Here's a, here's a speculation, we'll call it that. What if one day you wake up, let's say you're in the UK and you wake up and the economy's gone. So all your 401ks, and I'm not joking. Yeah, all your 401ks, all your retirement funds are gone. Okay. Now for the average pensioner and stuff, that's horrible. What happens to your security forces? What happens to your policemen who, yeah, they deserved. Yeah, right. Or go, not my problem anymore, not my job. Things are getting way worse now. Romantic men, let's say, are called to action. You know, defend your family, defend your country, defend your culture, defend whatever have you. There's a romantic urge. Pragmatic women are seeing all these problems in society and they go to their men and they whisper in their ear, fix it. I don't care how you do it, I'm not going to ask questions, just fix it.

Will Spencer [01:33:36]:

You think so?

Jason Mironchuk [01:33:38]:

Oh, yeah. Well, how many women now in Europe are reporting being scared to go out in public unescorted? See lots of those videos, man. It's escalating, escalating at exponential rates. So when those women, those young women, see those angry young men who are primed and ready and what did I say? 18 and 25 year old men are nature's WMDs. You give them, you give them a reason and you give them a target and go fix it. They'll go fix it. Yeah. And the only thing holding them back right now is fear, retribution. It's like goats testing a fence. If they find that the electric fence has got to shorten it, the one lead goat will get through. And once they get through, everyone follows. So the question is, what happens if and when either the situation gets so dire that people forget they don't care about the consequences anymore because the immediate consequences that are facing on the street are way worse than anything the cops are going to do. Right. Or you have a situation where your security forces no longer have a 401, they have no longer have a retirement fund. And a lot of them just go, peace out.

Will Spencer [01:35:03]:

Children of Men was a documentary trying.

Jason Mironchuk [01:35:07]:

To feel that way, doesn't it?

Will Spencer [01:35:09]:

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so. And that is a, that is a grim movie to watch in 2025 too. When it comes out, 2012 or something like that.

Jason Mironchuk [01:35:18]:

Someone's saying my volume is very low and muffled. I'm sorry about that. Maybe I.

Will Spencer [01:35:21]:

You sound Fine to me.

Jason Mironchuk [01:35:22]:

Okay. There you go. I can hear you.

Will Spencer [01:35:26]:

Okay. So, so here was something that I wanted to touch on earlier. I, so I look at all this and I, I see this showing up in the Reformed world. There's a big discussion and reform Christian world against, you have this sort of like rising spirit of, we'll call it vengeful son, masculine Christianity, Christian nationalism. And then, and then there's, there's a big contingent of men that are pointing at this and like, hey, these attitudes are, are unbiblical. These are, these are straight up unbiblical attitudes and these are, these are things that need that many to be sanctified of. The retort comes from the other side. If you look at the state of society right now, particularly in England, that seems to be a flashpoint as well. I think there was something about that the summer and then men will point back to the Crusades or the times in history where it would seem that that righteous Christian men raised up an army and went, and they, they went at the, they went at the threat. And that has been, there have been number of historical instances that have been surfaced about that. And so, so I, I listened to your narrative of how things could go down in England and my thought as that applies to the United States now I'm in the U.S. you're in Australia, you're Canadian. So what happens in England as part of the Commonwealth has a bit more direct relevance. Not that it isn't relevant to, to me in the United States, but you know, for, for us who are stateside. I have felt that Donald Trump and his administration has up to this point acted as a, acted as surprisingly as a pressure release valve. Like, I don't think Donald Trump wants violent revolution. Right. I don't think he, I don't think he ever did. And I don't think. J.D. vance. I don't know so much about Elon Musk, but I mean he's, he's a different sort of figure. I don't think anyone truly on that side. Hegseth Patel I don't think they want to see widespread violence in the United States. And I know that that's their concern. And they'd be like, hey, whatever happens in England, happens in England. Well, maybe they wouldn't say that, but I, I, I wonder, you know, I, I wonder what, because this raises the question of the other forces aligned that want that chaos. Surely there are certainly there are those for forces in Europe that want level of chaos and they exist in the United States as well. But I Guess My, my question then would be, you know, is this something that's going to be, I don't know, I don't know how to phrase it, allowed pushed back on. Are these things, are these things that are going to dissuade Trump, are they going to dissuade anybody? I'm kind of lost in the question that I'm trying to formulate. It just seems to me it's not as clear cut as it would have been under Biden.

Jason Mironchuk [01:38:04]:

Yeah, I think from my understanding, the way I'm looking at it is I think these things are like forces of nature, they're spiritual forces. So they're not something that you really can negotiate with Now. Now, do I think that certain administrations or people could be more effective than others at directing them and putting them into better places, use better and big massive air quotes? Sure, yeah, for a time being. But we, this is going to be around for at least 60 years is by my record. So the question really isn't. Okay, let's say Donald Trump is, is really good at deflecting it and let's say JD Vance is also really good. Well, eventually this is going to age out and it's going to again, materialize and metaxasize in interesting places. Just like let's say at the start of the 60s, you have civil rights and, and this movement towards civil rights. Well, and of course we have violence and, and upheavals during that period of time as well. But the way it's sold, what ridgy comes in, the, the, the initial volley is mini skirts, you know, and from the mini skirt you get into women's liberation. The, the rejection of the patriarchal, more, more traditional patriarchal structures and the sort of the, again the, the, the inversion of the, of the divine mother. Yeah. So the idea that, you know, that again, so we get into sexual revolutions, we get into cultural revolutions and all that kind of stuff, that's all part of it. That's part of that same over, over overriding spirit. So you wouldn't have been able to tell that from a mini skirt to, you know, mothers holding their, their kids down for inoculations 60 years later. But those two things are connected. Yeah, right. And that's, yeah, yeah. This is the thing with the. Why I think we're, oh, I'm trying to urge as many people as possible. I don't think it's, I don't think, you know, I don't have any airs on this is that, I don't think that, I think a lot of People are going to get sucked into it and it's going to affect everyone anyways. So it's here and you're just gonna have to deal with it on some, on whatever level. But yeah, I'll give you, I'll give you an example. So the big push right now is deportations.

Will Spencer [01:40:29]:

Yeah.

Jason Mironchuk [01:40:29]:

Get all these problem immigrants and people out and you know, look, there's a crisis. I'm not trying to say there isn't a crisis. And that has to be dealt with. And they're dealing with it this way. Sure. Right. Then you have to, you'll have the big question of how do you keep them out. And also now you're entering into a rivalry with the cartels in the southern border. Yeah. Not to mention some cartels in the northern border as well. So now you're, you're head on collision with a confrontation. And I think, I think part of Trump's promises was to build an iron dome across America. Built in America or an iron against Canada. Yeah, but why would you do that? Why would you need an iron dome across America in case you're. Unless you're afraid or concerned about people invading. Right, right. So conversations like that are circulating around, let's say digital IDs and this has been floated by Tony Blair and many other and many others. Now it's even in America there's this project called WorldCoin which is partly funded by Bill Ackman and a few other people. And anyways, look into it. Basically it's a digital ID system that scans your eyeball and it scans your eyeball and that verifies your digital id. And then with your digital ID you can use all your electron, no more passwords and stuff. Right, right. Well, that's again, how are you going to keep people out? We saw them floating this in Florida during the lock, during the, during the long flu where Desantis was floating the idea of digital IDs for immigrants, digital visas for, for immigrant workers. So this stuff is already here and that's again crisis response. Right. So the more we lean into that sort of spirit of vengeance. Sure. It might be again, because there's a, there's a legitimate crisis. Something that has to be dealt with. Something that you're right is this is a problem. But because we're going to approach it in a much more violent, aggressive, very teenage kind of teenage male kind of energy, the, the desire now is to break it. Well, as you break things, there's going to be other responses and these things beget other things. So I Think what, where I would see this going, the natural tendencies for this would be to become more totalitarian.

Will Spencer [01:43:00]:

Yeah.

Jason Mironchuk [01:43:00]:

And a lot of things we're worried about in terms of liberty, security, all those things that the people will choose security and they'll choose it hard. So, you know the thing, how do you get chips in people? Well, you deport them and say, yeah, put this chip in you so you can't get back in.

Will Spencer [01:43:23]:

I mean, one of the ways you get chips in people is you create a crisis. And, and I think the thing that's worried me about the, the vengeful son is that there are so many young men that are taking the bait. And you know, they're, they've been raised, they're extremely online. You know, they've been deprived, starting in Covid of meaningful outdoor real life experiences. We live in safety, culture, etc, and you have this strong, not only do you have poor pornography, but you have the strong radicalization running. And so you have, you have young men that are sort of being ginned up in a very, in a very real way daily. Right? And then you have the, you have the endless stream of the, of the news cycle and it just kind of begins spiraling on itself as a, as a way of taking young men and fashioning them to, into a weapon to launch them at something. And, and I think the, the worry about that is that's essentially what, isn't that what feminism has been warning about for centuries? Right? Centuries. Not centuries. Decades. Right. That, that's like, you know, we've, we fear this aspect of men and now we're seeing these men. Right? And I think that there is a component of women that will say, okay, go fix it. But I think there's also a component of women separately, perhaps of a more devouring mother mindset of any generation that will say, that is exactly the behavior that we said that men were about. And this is why we need, you know, totalitarianism almost as an excuse.

Jason Mironchuk [01:45:01]:

I feel they're going to get drowned out. I think the, the thing that, the other interesting little trick I think is going to get played is that the vengefuls, the, a lot of people who are in imbued by the spirit, who are leaning fully into the spirit, will be the ones who set up the security states. Oh, okay, order. It'll be order. Right then. Oh, yes, okay. I've seen this burning desire, right, to tear it down, tear down the old order, enact a new one, build a new one. Because again, who are, who, who are the heads of these Things. Let's look at the Technocrats for a second. Yeah, well these aren't disorderly people. The whole VC mindset. Super order. What do these guys always sell these courses on? Drink your water with Himalayan sea salt and structure your day and all that Order Brian Johnson. Yeah, I'm gonna live forever.

Will Spencer [01:46:00]:

Right. Yeah.

Jason Mironchuk [01:46:00]:

Right. But that's very ordered. They're just angry. They're angry at. I'll see. I'll tell you where the seeds are. This again going back to Peter Thiel. You read zero to one he spends a, at least a chapter or two talking with the 90s and talking about. Specifically about the dot com bubble burst. And a lot of people have this Myth that the 90s was great and amazing and stuff of that and to some extent it was true. There's a, there's a, there's a lot of euphemism there because of the end of Cold War and end of history and all these things. But for a lot of Gen X guys who this was, they're coming, this was their coming out period. This is when they should have surpassed their dads. Right.

Will Spencer [01:46:41]:

Yeah.

Jason Mironchuk [01:46:42]:

The dot com systems and that was making tons of money and that that was going to be the next big thing. And it burst and they all lost. A lot of them lost everything. Right.

Will Spencer [01:46:55]:

I was in the middle of that at Stanford University in the Bay Area. This was like. Yeah, yeah.

Jason Mironchuk [01:46:59]:

Right. And that depressed. That held back the majority of Gen X. Yeah. And the other, the other part. The blue collar guys like me saw our jobs, all those good factory jobs and all those other. They all got deported. Yeah.

Will Spencer [01:47:16]:

So in Mexico, Pakistan, China, middle class in America doesn't have jobs because India and Pakistan and Mexico, middle class jobs. They don't have a middle class because those middle class now.

Jason Mironchuk [01:47:27]:

Right. And these are guys who are doing everything they were. They were told to do. That's right. Or they're iconoclastic. So they're, they're already, we're already at odds with the system anyways because we, we're, we're a lot of us are the generation of, of divorced. Of divorced families of. Yeah. Of you know, latchkey kids. All the rest of it raised by our grandparents or raisin in different kind of scenarios.

Will Spencer [01:47:53]:

So we're.

Jason Mironchuk [01:47:54]:

Right. And we're. And you know, full on in school and we're starting to get the idea that the school stuff is crap anyways and what are they trying to sell us on? And there's a general awareness I think in Gen X more than millennials that things this is bs. And so you already have an iconoclastic, resentful, angry generation who got denied and many of us kind of squeaked through and did all right because we just had a bit of a tailwind. Right. But, but those are the guys who are in charge right now. It's a Gen X leadership. Essentially the brains are Gen X. That's why it's a Gen X head on a Gen Z body.

Will Spencer [01:48:37]:

Oh, I see.

Jason Mironchuk [01:48:38]:

Coming down the pike. So, okay, you got a lot of angry, resentful, bitter, nihilistic, you know, 45, 55 year olds who are informing and, and kind of directing a bunch of resentful, angry, autistic, but you know, a Spurgeon, 20, 25, 30 year olds who are just coming into the, into the, the fruits of their life right now. It's interesting time. So I think there's gonna be a lot of Tear it down to rebuild it. Rebuild it into what? That speculation.

Will Spencer [01:49:17]:

I've, I've actually seen a surprising amount of celebration of China. Pardon my sinuses, I'm still getting over being sick. But I've seen a surprising amount of celebration of the mono ethnic, a mono ethnic communist China command and control society. Very orderly, no wokeness, no liberalism. It's like get on a plane, go check it out. Is that the civil. That is not the civilization you want to live in. Because that is not how it actually is on the inside. But Singapore, what's that? Singapore.

Jason Mironchuk [01:49:52]:

Singapore, exactly.

Will Spencer [01:49:53]:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, Singapore is so much smaller in scale. Right. So it's impossible to understand, you know, how a nation like that could scale to the size of the United States. That's another thing that Americans don't understand very well, especially on the left. They would look at like, why are we not more like, I don't know, Belgium? Why are we not more like Norway? It's like that's the size of one city. Right, Right. When you scale that up to 300 million people across a landmass in the United States. Right. With a nation that's responsible for worldwide geosecurity, you get a different sort of thing. So to say that we should be like Singapore is the right wing version of that, I suppose. But I, I, that's very interesting piece about the, about the order being of such importance.

Jason Mironchuk [01:50:43]:

Well, again, you know, the adversary doesn't care how they get you. And I think for a large part the, the elite structures. I think there's that again when you look into things like digital IDs, the converse. We never had the conversation, should we. There's Never been the conversation. It's only guys have. Well, I don't even think that. I think it was like, we're going to. Now which one are we going to do it with chips? Are we going to do it Biometric data. You're going to scan your eyeball, you're going to put the thing in your head, whatever is going to be. But maybe we'll have different models and see which one ticks off. But we never had the, the other conversation. I don't think we're going to have a lot of the transhumanist conversations. We're not going to get the conversation about should we do genetic tampering? Oh, yeah, no, right. The dire world, dire wolf thing on, on the magazine cover recently, right? It's not should we? It's like, well, we've done it now.

Will Spencer [01:51:48]:

There's no ethic to say we shouldn't. Why shouldn't we? Of course, there's no God, right? Exactly. There's no God. Yeah, exactly. We're all just clumps of cells. There's no God to tell us what to do. So if the God does. What is it? God is a dose to fc. If God is not real, everything is permitted. Something like that.

Jason Mironchuk [01:52:07]:

Yeah. Yeah, but that's the attitude and this is the danger, right, because we, because, because we lack these societal, Traditional societal breaks. Like in a traditional society, you and I at this, at our age would be like, you know, mini elders. We'd be like hanging out at church and taking in, you know, directing people to the right sources and, and, you know, hearing the complaints of the younger men and trying to give them advice and direction. But, you know, you try doing that now and then you get called a boomer and off they go. Right. So we're doing, we do, we do our best, maybe at this late stage in life, but. But we're not indicative of the entire culture. So again, I, I always say this too, with, you know, the discernment between justice and, and, and, and vengeance. Even if you could use vengeance correctly, you know, let's say I give you this, this instance and go, we're all going to turn away and you're just going to use it, you know, use it the way you want and maybe you can use it really judiciously. Maybe you know when to stop. Good for you. But that doesn't mean your neighbor does, or the guy across the street or the guy in the next state or whatever, or the guy in a different country who's gonna be, who's only seeing that action and they're going to model that because they want that, because it's going to feel good. And the more it feels good, the more they're going to want more of it. And the more they can code it as justice, as a good thing in the moral. The moral upstanding thing, because they're going to just invent morals. Now we have even. We've been bereft of them for so long that now people are just going to start creating them. The whole courses, I'm sure. And, and on some ways it's good. It's good to get back to universals. It's good to have these conversations again. It's, I think, good for society to start to embrace, you know, natural law and order. Unfortunately, these subjects have to be taken very carefully and can't just be, you know, one of my priests say recently, it's like, you know, don't, don't get sucked into DIY orthodoxy because you, you know, you need, you need structure, you need the proper mentorship. You need to, again, get humble and go, I don't know what I'm doing, and I need to talk to people who do. And I think a lot of people are going to get sucked into that idea of like, well, we're just going to tear it down and we'll rebuild it somehow magically. Like, it doesn't matter. It's like, no, it matters. You should have a plan for this. And if you don't, you're just, you're tearing things down for the wrong people. Because I think a lot of people behind them are going, yeah, sure, tear it down. Yeah, go, go tear it down. Yeah, don't worry. We have, we have this whole thing set up again. I, I urge people to go check out what Matthew Erickson was. Did all his deep dives into PayPal mafia, which is Peter Thiel, that whole PayPal grouping, and some of those guys who later on went on and, and some of their satellite people, they're heavily invested in, let's say, you know, technology that would enable people to, to be kept out. It was just announcement. I just remember the full piece. But Palantir now is helping ICE with, with facial recognition and all these other kind of technologies that allow them to tell, you know, people from people, to help them, round them up and get them out of the country. And everyone goes, yeah, there's your solution. And I'm not saying it's, I'm not saying that you should be all for open borders, that, you know, I say these things and people go, what Are you saying. I'm not saying that. I'm simply saying, like the solution that's going to be presented from, for you isn't coming from you. You're not having the conversation of should we, how. How do we do this? It's more like it's getting done. This is how it's going to get done. And isn't it great? Problem solved. Looks all the great beams until you become the problem.

Will Spencer [01:56:22]:

So you said something a minute ago I think was really interesting. That it seems, and I've struggled to put words to this, we'll see if we can land the plane, is that it seems that whatever is happening is outside of my ability to influence. Not that it's all on me, and I don't mean to suggest that, but the feeling of like I could stand at the beach and I can shout at the ocean, but it's not going to do anything. And I've begun to develop this feeling that whatever I may see, whatever problems I may identify, whatever medicating function, soothing function, de escalating function I may want to serve is not working. And so I. That's been very interesting to me to encounter. I think you called it a spiritual force or a force of nature that's living within people that is outside of my ability to influence. Again, not that I'm the only guy influencing it, but sometimes you get the sense that, okay, this is a situation that I feel like I can have some influence on. I have a meaningfully sized platform, maybe I can make some difference. I've since discovered that does not appear to be the case. And I've encountered that other times in my life, sailing, mountain climbing, where it's like, hey, that storm up there, there's nothing I can do about it, right? Just gonna have to ride it out. So I guess the question then would be for anyone listening that does not wish to be a part of it, what can they do? And that has a two part sort of answer, which is what should they do within their own lives, within the sphere of what they can control. And then the second question is, is there anything that can be done towards something that sounds, you're talking, and I don't think wrongly, you're talking like it's an inevitability. It very well may be. But is, is there anything to do to, to do to stave off this inevitability? You spoke that this is something that we're going to be dealing with for 60 years. And that kind of struck me because like many Americans, I live in a next Election cycle kind of mindset. It's not a right way of thinking for sure, but the thought that this simmering, bubbling anger that is just kind of there, the vengeful Son spirit in the tyrannical father was. I don't know how long. Call it 40 years.

Jason Mironchuk [01:58:40]:

19.

Will Spencer [01:58:40]:

20 to 19.

Jason Mironchuk [01:58:41]:

Yeah.

Will Spencer [01:58:42]:

And then 60 years of the, of the Devouring Mother. And so if we're at the beginning of the vengeful Son, if it all holds true, then we could be in for many decades of this.

Jason Mironchuk [01:58:51]:

And. Whoa.

Will Spencer [01:58:54]:

Now, I don't, I don't think that'll necessarily be the case. It might not. Particularly because the vengeful son has a way of expelling his energy all at once in one big go and then falling.

Jason Mironchuk [01:59:05]:

Teenager.

Will Spencer [01:59:06]:

He's a teenager. But, but in that moment of, in that, in that moment, the full intensity is there. So maybe I'm feeling this looming sense, as I think many people are. There's this looming sense that something is coming. Maybe it's coming, maybe it's not. Maybe it's the apocalypse, maybe it's the end times. Maybe it's the next grand psyop. Or maybe that it's just the constant teasing of the thing that's keeping us just on the edge. Like just do the thing already. Which I think is probably most likely that living in the not knowing creates far more anxiety than the actual release of the tension. But given all these different things, what sort of things can we do in our lives? And what sort of things can we do in the collective?

Jason Mironchuk [01:59:48]:

So Saints Seraphim of Sarov once said that a peaceful heart saves a thousand souls. And the idea, again, this idea of mimetics, so you as a model will affect everyone around you, and as you affect them, they affect other people. So it's ripples, right? Again, you can place yourself in one piece, piece that node. But in a community, there are many. There are many nodes. So the, the work ahead of us is this the way I see it? And I think this is actually harder for old men like us because we get to a point and we get sort of self assured and certain confidences because you, because you have to. And you, you start to think you, you got this sort of figured out. And the first thing you have to realize is that is that you're wrong. You have been wrong and you are wrong. What? Don't know? Yeah, I know, right?

Will Spencer [02:00:48]:

How dare you, sir?

Jason Mironchuk [02:00:50]:

You know, come on my show, speaking truth to me. What is this indignity? I know I, I have to say to myself, Management. Well, there's a way. So once you get to that point of humility and going, okay, I'm wrong. Right, I'm wrong. I was, I've been wrong. I am wrong. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm much more likely to get this wrong than right because my basis of reality, my basis of my understanding of all these things is at best incomplete. So that's the first step is, is to, and give yourself a bit of an out on that by simply saying, like, okay, if I'm wrong, then it gives me the opportunity. Instead of getting depressed about it, it gives me the opportunity to learn. And no matter how old I am, no matter. I can start to set things right. Now, I may not be able to do everything, but I can start to, I can start to as Peter something, clean my room. Right. Clean your spiritual room in whatever way you can. And I think that this, again, the, this social media stuff, it's, and I, you know, we, I like to have it on the show maybe in the future when we can talk about this directly because it's something that plays on my mind is when you start doing these things and you start building a platform and you start doing these shows, it's, it's easy to get dragged into that vainglory and it's, it's hard to balance that sense of duty and, and humility with, with pride and vainglory because, you know, you get all the numbers going, people are listening. Oh, get compliments.

Will Spencer [02:02:33]:

Followers.

Jason Mironchuk [02:02:34]:

Yeah. And it's, it's very tempting. And that's, that's the thing you gotta, you gotta deal with, you know, it's, it's. And just keep reminding yourself that it's that again that return, repent, redeem. Right. Get, get humble, you know, stay grateful. It's, I think it's incredibly difficult in this world. But you also. So in terms of effect, I think we all want some big effect like we, we, we, we judge Russell Brand but kind of want what he has, right? Wouldn't it be if I was Russell Brand? Oh, if I was Russell Brand, I would not be in tighty whities dunking people in the water. No, no, sir. I would bring the true ministry out to the people when, you know, I would, I would really direct people to the right thing. Oh, would you? You know, so I don't, I don't.

Will Spencer [02:03:26]:

Want what he has. I just, I, I want him to be him and, and, and have what he has and be better at what he's doing. Like wrestle, wrestle, put Some pants on. Keep doing it. Keep doing it. Put some pants on.

Jason Mironchuk [02:03:37]:

Stop cr. Stop crying on stage. No, I'm, I'm saying you. I'm not. I'm talking directly or even to myself. It's like, I think we see that effect and we say, you know, part of. I'll speak personally, you know, I get dragged with that. Like, you know, I would, I would want that. I would want that reach, you know, and you have to realize that the most important reach I have is with my family. Right. Or, or in, in your own local community. And I, I know people say this all the time, but it is true, is that you don't understand the effects you're having on people, both good and bad. The, the things that are going to remember you for and the things that you're going to have direct effects on. It's incalculable. You're going to maybe say some throwaway line, and that's the thing that's going to, you know, really be a positive thing for someone. So I think it's just giving the attention towards and keeping yourself properly humble, which is, again, very difficult in this age of, of reach and influence. And then. So I think that answered part of your question. What were the other part of your question there?

Will Spencer [02:04:45]:

So that was the what can we do in our own lives? And I think that's kind of both, actually. It's kind of. It's kind of a. It's an exceptional answer because it answers both at the same time. What can we do in our own lives? Focus on, focus on our own righteousness, our own purity, our own sanctification. And, and I love how you take the mimetic theory that's being used against us, which is a universal principle, let's say, and you turn it against the other way. It's like, okay, if we're being driven by our memetic desire to imitate these models, pick them. Well, we don't actually have to do that. We can, we can be the, the sources of memetic imitation ourselves.

Jason Mironchuk [02:05:25]:

Yeah. And realize that you are anyways, you know that people are going to look to you, especially as you rise in the hierarchy of, let's say, attention, whether it's in your online or your family or community or something like that. The higher up the hierarchy you go, the more people are going to be drawn to you. So you're. You'll be the model for more than just, you know, your kids. You'll be the model for many different people. Many people will attach ideas of what, let's say father is to you. If you're a successful father, people will see that and it doesn't matter how rich or poor you are, it just means the fulfillment of. So I think that that's where we could end that on is that try to fulfill the office that you're given at any given time. If it's, if, you know, if you're not married and you don't have kids, fulfill the office of the son or the daughter of the other child and be the good kid. Right. Even if you're 45 years old, be the good, be the good child. And what does that, you know, when we can run down what are those duties? What are the, you know, what it, what you, what must you fulfill and, and carry the forward. You know, I always said if you, if you want to do little tiny changes in your, in your environment, just go out and pick up garbage. Don't, don't allow them, don't allow your environment to be dirty. Yeah. And again, that just transfers over to people because you know a story from my grandfather. So he, he used to race pigeons back in the day. They had to give that up. He had a rooftop, you know, roost and stuff like that. Beat him every time. But he's always had like, like to feed birds. And I guess now the standard thing is don't feed them bread. But my grandfather would go around to. We had a school in the back of us and he'd go around and he'd go through garbages and get. All the kids would throw away their sandwiches and stuff like that. So he'd take them all and get, and get some loaves of bread as well and bring them down to his workshop in the basement. And he had this big giant sort of cutting blade on a, on a, on a, on a slab of wood. And he would sit there and very, you know, methodically cut all these, all this bread up into little tiny cubes so he can go feed the birds with. Right. And it's not. And I don't go and do the exact same thing. But I remember that like that sticks with me. That is ingrained in me. Like do things methodically that, that sort of purposeful doing of a thing, a very small thing, you know, to feed birds. Like what is that? So there's, there's that stuck in me and, and he wouldn't have known that that was going to influence my life or my thinking, you know what, 40 odd years down the road, but there it is. So you don't know what's going to Stick with people, you know, and you want to, you want the best of it to stick with people. So be mindful and again, get humble. Get humble, be grateful, win awards.

Will Spencer [02:08:42]:

Those are fantastic answers. Thank you very much for that. And I think that's actionable and I think godly and biblical and all these good things that can give people something genuinely to aspire to that is also non reactionary.

Jason Mironchuk [02:08:57]:

Right.

Will Spencer [02:08:57]:

It's not like, okay, out of the reaction to this meme, become the other meme. Like you know, like you, you follow, you follow the path of Christ and that will keep you safe whether, and you don't do it in a reactionary sense as well. You do it in a sense of obedience. And I think that's the right way to go. Wonderful. Well sir, this has been a delightful conversation. I'm so grateful that we connected over the vengeful sun and we're able to go off roading into so many different, so many different philosophical, theological, spiritual, political topics. This has been excellent. Where would you like to send people to find out more about you and what you do?

Jason Mironchuk [02:09:32]:

Good question. Right now YouTube is. I've been in YouTube sin bin for some reason. I don't know why I think I'm in conversations with them. So my visibility has been down. You should be able to still find me if you search for me. I've been checking on that but Mirin Chuk now is the name of the channel so my name M I R O N C H U C K Now I'm on YouTube, I'm on Spotify, I'm on sub stack I itunes, all the podcasters and uh, over on X as well. Uh, where I'm uh, I post regularly so yeah, multiple shows out there. Uh, right now I'm doing Then and now with Jim Jotras so we uh, do a weekly show where we talk about geopolitics, uh, a lot of orthodox Christianity there as well and conversations mostly around Ukraine, Russia, but other place, other places as well. So that's a weekly show every Tuesday we stream live around 10pm Eastern. I have a interview show that I'm putting on the slight hiatus so I can get to some other stuff as well. But that's then and now there's. Sorry, at the end of the day there's a slew of those out there for people to go check out. I had a series called Friend or Fed, which is more of a panel show that'll be coming back hopefully pretty soon. Brand new format. Yeah, it's a fun one. You should check those out and what else? And then I do live streams and talks and I show up on other people's shows like, like Will's. Thanks. Thanks so much, Will. Appreciate it. And and I'll be doing a new project with my friend Matt Erickson over on King Build. So she keeps my ears and eyes open for that. And yeah, that's, that's me. If you search for.

Will Spencer [02:11:12]:

Yeah.

Jason Mironchuk [02:11:13]:

Nice thing about having that name is not a lot of us out there, so.

Will Spencer [02:11:16]:

That's right.

Jason Mironchuk [02:11:17]:

If you look for Mir and Shuck, you'll probably find me somewhere down there. All right.

Will Spencer [02:11:21]:

Well, I'll be sure to send everyone that. That way. Many of those links are in the show notes. And thank you again so much for your time tonight.

Jason Mironchuk [02:11:27]:

Jason, thank you so much. Will. Appreciate you. Man.