Will Spencer [00:00:20]:

Ali D, thanks so much for joining me on the Will Spencer podcast.

Ali D [00:00:24]:

Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm very excited.

Will Spencer [00:00:26]:

We've been really looking forward to this conversation, and especially because you're pretty deep into pregnancy right now. I think you're way eight. Eight to nine months pregnant. So this is sliding in under the wire a little bit.

Ali D [00:00:38]:

Yes. I wake up every day wondering, am I still pregnant? And I am so very far along.

Will Spencer [00:00:47]:

How long do you spend wondering if you're pregnant? Like, how long does that little gap of wondering take place?

Ali D [00:00:53]:

It's usually it's toward the end of the third trimester because I have a girlfriend. She kind of makes this joke how the Lord prepares us for childbirth, and it's like he gradually inconveniences you to the point where you're like, yes, like, I will have this baby. I'm ready to give birth, like, any moment now. Let's go. And that is very much the mindset that I'm in now. It's like, I am just prepared to meet my child at any point in time. Like, let's go.

Will Spencer [00:01:21]:

Yeah. I imagine at a certain point, it's like, okay, you're ready for this process to be over and the next series of challenges to begin.

Ali D [00:01:29]:

I think so. I'm actually super pumped this time around. I was pumped the first time, don't get me wrong. But I was very humbled in becoming a mother when I transitioned from maiden to mother.

Will Spencer [00:01:46]:

So say. Say more about that. Say more about that process of humbling, like, maybe the. For your first child, how you expected things to go, the difference between that and how it actually went and sort of what happened afterwards.

Ali D [00:01:57]:

I don't think I was prepared for the vulnerability that comes with motherhood. And I don't mean emotional vulnerability. I mean physical vulnerability. How much you have to rely on others and the importance of a network and a community. And if you don't have a community, should definitely spend your pregnancy trying to build some kind of community, because whatever you have set up for yourself logistically toward your third trimester of your first pregnancy, like, that is what you have. So I have been a very. I don't want to say, like, strong and independent woman, but, yeah, I mean, I had to be in my life, so I. I thought, oh, yeah, well, this is just one of those things. And I can power through. It's like, not really. You need some help from some friends and some family people around you. So that is what I found humbling. All the other stuff, you know, it is a lot of motherhood has been what I expected it to be otherwise.

Will Spencer [00:02:58]:

So you, so you kind of. Not that you were that strong, independent woman kind of cliche, but a little bit you. You realize how much you have to rely on other people to be an effective and fulfilled mother.

Ali D [00:03:10]:

Yes. But I would say mostly for the postpartum period, you're very, very, very dependent on the people around you. And you might think that your husband can be enough of a village like, you know, they can be. But honestly, I think postpartum is the first time women realize how different men are in terms of them being the opposite sex and thinking differently. You know, there's a lot of lamentations that women share about that kind of thing publicly, but I think it's just a point of learning for the two of you. Right. Like for the man and for the woman. They're like, oh, you are a much more different creature than I ever expected. But I will say for women who have had a, you know, a confusing time in their marriages postpartum with their first child, I don't see it repeat a lot with the second child. If the husband, it genuinely loves his wife, they kind of end up figuring it out. You know that.

Will Spencer [00:04:10]:

So the husband ends up. The married couple ends up figuring it out. Or both of them individually. I imagine it's probably both of those.

Ali D [00:04:18]:

Oh, it's both. I think you learn not to expect things that are outside of male nature from your husband in the postpartum period. But I think for a lot of guys, they finally understand why the Bible refers to their wife as the weaker vessel or why it refers to women as the weaker vessel. Like, no, no. Like we really are. We really need your help. But what I was saying was that I believe that if a husband genuinely loves his wife, he figures it out the second time around. He's more quick with it. Because a lot of women experience disappointment in the postpartum period in that avenue of things. But it's part of the growing process. It's nothing to get, you know, bent around the axle for. I think some women hold on to that stuff for a lifetime, but I think you would be very foolish to do so.

Will Spencer [00:05:09]:

You, meaning the disappointment with the ways their. Their husbands maybe aren't familiar with how to be a husband to now what is a mother and how to be. How to be an early stage father. Something like that.

Ali D [00:05:20]:

I don't even know if I would describe it like that. I think the disappointment of being hit with by the reality that men and women are different. You theorize Online or you hear about. While you're scrolling, they are different. Different.

Will Spencer [00:05:37]:

So. So this is very interesting to me. Of course, I got engaged about 10 days ago, so this is all. This is all very useful for me as I'm looking down the horizon of, of becoming a husband and, Lord willing, someday a father. So I have a couple more questions, if you don't mind me asking. Just. Just between. Okay. So. So what was that like for you, for your. For your first pregnancy with your husband? Like, were these things that you were able to navigate through together? Was this, Was this a time for you that brought you closer together? Was it a time that you both look at, like, wow, we learned a ton. It made us a better, stronger couple.

Ali D [00:06:09]:

I think it made us a better, stronger couple, you know, through time. I think it was probably our first big, major trial and tribulation. Women only think about themselves when they're pregnant. For the most part, they don't think about all the changes that are occurring in a man. And actually, if you look into the data, yeah, I'm. I'm very nerdy when it comes to sex differences. I know it's not everything, and I know we're part of the same species, but I have some questions about that. But there are hormonal changes that occur in men if they're cohabitating closely with a pregnant woman in the first place, and then if a woman is postpartum, and then if there's a small baby in the home. So they're going through their own hormonal changes and experiences. And I'm not sure if audiences are familiar. This is more of a controversial topic. But there's an increase in men experiencing postpartum depression. And I don't think that it's made up. I think that it's real. Because if you look at the hormonal factor of men being so close with pregnant women, postpartum women, and small babies, I mean, that. That's gotta be a change because it changes a man's testosterone, like, incredibly, the sleep deprivation is part of it, but it's also the fact that there's a baby that's around them. So if they're having a hormonal impact and they're experiencing stressors, and for a lot of guys, it's actually stressful for them to witness what their. Their wives go through in childbirth. Not that the childbirth process itself is stressful, but sometimes women get taken advantage of in hospitals. And that's hard for a husband to deal with because he could be questioning himself, like, why didn't I advocate for her better? Really? Like, a lot of guys don't really understand what they're dealing with unless they. They go through it. Some men experience guilt. If a woman has birth trauma, he also is going to feel guilty for that in one capacity or another. So, like, my point in that is that women don't see deeper than what's on the surface level when it comes to men and what they're going through as they become fathers. So, like ignoring the husband part of it or the husband aspect of part of it. That's a big mental load that men just don't share. And I did have a professor in college. His story is very interesting. He had twins, and he actually ended up with postpartum depression because he was such. So apparently there's a correlation. The more of an involved father you are, the more likely you are to experience postpartum depression, which is unfortunate, but so that. That kind of stuff. And I'm not. I'm not at all expressing that my. My husband experienced postpartum depression or anything like that. What I am saying is that he had his own cognitive load to deal with that. He was kind of, you know, not really divulging to me. And then on top of that, I had my own cognitive load that I was dealing with about a woman going from made into mothers. So it's just a stressful time period for a lot of couples. For some couples, it's pretty seamless. But I would say that that is more rare than common from what I've heard. I think a. A big problem is men will help you if you can tell them what you need. But for some women, if they're postpartum, they're sleep deprived and hormonal. And, you know, I mean, it's just hard to talk in that state. So your husband can see that you're struggling, but you can't get the words out. It's kind of how it is. So I guess any men that are watching, if you're going to be a new dad, if your wife is postpartum, she needs sleep, food, a shower, and to go outside, just do those things. Because men will ask, well, what do you need? It's like, I really want to tell you, but I am having a hard time even talking right now.

Will Spencer [00:10:05]:

Mm. That's like hungry, angry, lonely, tired, like halt. Right? Sleep, food, shower, go outside.

Ali D [00:10:12]:

Yes.

Will Spencer [00:10:13]:

So, okay, so for. So for my benefit, I've. I've heard the term postpartum depression, and I think I have sort of an environmental, or say atmospheric Understanding of having some idea about it just from the way people talk about it. But I don't know that I know a formal definition or some specific characteristics of it. So maybe it would help. It would help me for sure to get a more of more formal perspective on it.

Ali D [00:10:35]:

I. I can't really tell you much about postpartum depression. I didn't experience postpartum depression. Yes, there are diagnostic criteria that you can look up, but the hospitals are pretty good about screening for it. And then also when a woman sees her ob gyn before and after they screen for it, midwives screen for it. Like, I actually think there's too much of an emphasis on postpartum depression. I think what postpartum depression really is, is. Is burnout. It's a lot. And what a woman is expecting from motherhood, in her mind, if there is too much cognitive dissonance between what she expected and what the reality is, I think that's also going to make her more likely to experience postpartum depression to an extent. For me, I knew to expect the unexpected. I actually have way less expectations of, like, motherhood compared to marriage as an arena of my life. That's why I've always been, like, rocking and rolling as a mom. I just. I don't care because the kids are probably going to be okay no matter what decision I make, they're probably going to be fine. But our culture probably puts too much of an emphasis in postpartum depression for women. And I think it might create that. But really, it's the whole you need a village situation. Right. I think it's terrible that women have to rely on men to take care of them postpartum because they don't know, they don't carry the baby, They've never been a mom. But our culture is basically making these guys the support system for these women in those time periods. And yes, I do think, like, with time and repetition, men can get very much better at the craft. But it's terrible that that is a responsibility that's on them. Like, ideally, you'd be getting taken care of by other women. However, a lot of people today are selfish. And if you're going to have a village as a woman, you have to be a villager, which means you have to serve other women in a loving way, in a selfless way. Otherwise people are not going to be. Well, women are not going to be as apt to take care of you, if that makes sense. I have a village this time around, but it took a lot of cultivation. It's my Church family. So I understand that that's not an option for a lot of women. And I'm in a very. I'm in a very unique situation with my church. It's full of millennial wives and moms. Like, half the congregation is babies. So I'm in. Yeah, I'm in good hands there. So I would just encourage women to create social networks if they're lacking. And I know that it's hard, but it's better to have it than not.

Will Spencer [00:13:20]:

Mm. So, yeah, that. That makes a lot of sense to. To know that it's more than just a hormonal crash. Like, I could imagine the process of being pregnant and then giving birth, your hormones shift so radically now that the baby is out that that will create a bit of emotional disturbance or a bit of an emotional shift, but then also the cognitive aspect of what I expected this to be versus what it actually is. And perhaps, like, what does it say about me or what does it say about the world? The massive mindset shift. That makes a lot of sense to understand that it's kind of both of those.

Ali D [00:13:54]:

Well, I mean, that's just me operating under the premise that I do think a lot of mental illnesses, including depression. Yes, there's hormonal influences. I will never take that away from a new parent. But a lot of it is how we're thinking about a situation. And women are being told for. From the time that they're school girls, that they're not any different than boys and they can all do the same things. And then if you have a baby and that's the first time that you find out you cannot do the same things. Yeah. It's going to stress out your marriage. It's going to make your motherhood experience pretty dark, pretty bleak. And then on top of that, you've got social media. I don't know a lot of women who handle social media well. Although I. They. They will lie about it. I don't think so. And. And social media is gonna. It's gonna get you postpartum if you're not careful with your screen time. Yeah.

Will Spencer [00:14:44]:

What, like seeing the. Seeing the happy lives that people curate for their social media feed with their kids and wondering, why don't I have that in my behind the scenes life?

Ali D [00:14:53]:

Well, that's part of it. That is more of the covetous side of it, but it's also whatever emotions get provoked in you, that's what the algorithm is going to feed on. So if you're postpartum, sleep deprived, having all these feelings, experiencing A major change in your life. The algorithm knows when you give birth, by the way, and it knows when you're pregnant, too. It's very quick to figure it out. And I guess because you get interested in that stuff. I do prefer looking at some pregnancy content on and off. I'm not on Instagram that much because it. It impacts me a lot, so I very much limit my use there. However, it's like, if you're feeling negatively about the postpartum experience, Instagram will make sure that you feel worse because that is the content that you're engaging in and it's keeping you on the screen more. So I've had this conversation before. I wrote an article about it. A lot of women are very happy to read it. I think men need to be mindful of their wives screen time in the postpartum period, which is uncomfortable because a lot of guys are working. He's like, why do I have to worry about my wife being on her phone while I'm at work? And she's got a new baby? Shouldn't that be her responsibility? Listen, man, the weaker vessel, okay, you got to help her out and just, you know, just take a peek. Like, what is the stuff that's populating on your feed? Just having a conversation about it. Like, I actually don't think this is helpful for you. You can curate your algorithm too, and you should.

Will Spencer [00:16:19]:

Men should. Men should curate the algorithm quite strictly. This is interesting because it sort of parallels a thought that I've been having. You know, thinking about subjects like patriarchy and stuff like that. And the position that I've always taken is I would never ask. I would never ask someone in my household, whether it be my wife or my children, to make a sacrifice that I myself am not also willing to make. Right. It's not going to be. You all have to make these sacrifices while I do my own thing. I don't think that's right. I don't think that's just so. In the same vein asking a wife to dial back her screen time postpartum, I would do the same. But the thing is, I'm recognizing now as I'm heading into this phase of my life, I have to do that anyway. Like, my time needs to be processed much more efficiently to get the things done than I need to do. There's much less time for. For random scrolling.

Ali D [00:17:09]:

Yes. And that is. That's been my position as a content creator. My experience as a content creator is the more that I develop my life, the more kids that I have. First of all the less I care about the opinions of others, which is such a blessing. I cannot explain, explain that enough. You know, if, if you're a woman and you, you're still very deeply caring about the opinions of others, I suggest having a child. And then if you have a child and you still care about the opinions of others, I suggest having more until you don't have the bandwidth to care anymore. Children are so like, freeing in that way. But yeah, I've, I've cut down on my screen time because, I mean, I've grown enough and I don't want it to take up too much time away from my home. And it has sacrifice my, my presence on social media. But I mean, my kids are forever, my family's forever. Social media is gonna be there when they get older. You know what I mean? But a lot of women are kind of afraid of that, of like what has happened to me, how much my engagement has dropped. And actually I think a lot of female content creators cannot afford to log off. Yeah. Which is, there's a lot of conservative ones and they can't afford to get offline because their man is not taking care of them. I got some questions about that. But that's, that's how you go into dating. You know, you really do have to be all in on the idea that I, I cannot be financially responsible for any bills, at least while children are small when they get older. You know, I can consider a part time job maybe once they're teenagers, like maybe even a full time job. Kind of depends. But I think there's a lot of feminism on the conservative side of things, and it's keeping these women involved in things that they, they shouldn't be. And that's why it's helpful to be a Christian too, because I don't have to feel guilty about logging off. Like, what are people gonna think? It's like, well, what does the Lord think? And what's my primary ministry? Is it social media or is it my family? As a woman, my primary ministry is going to be my family, so I don't have to feel bad.

Will Spencer [00:19:08]:

Mm. I'm loving all of the sacred cows being challenged here. Like men and women are different in pregnancy and childbirth reveals that in the same way. I think I saw something going around on X maybe a couple weeks ago saying women don't actually understand how different men and women are. Because whatever women physically interact with men, like in physical competition, men are always holding their strength back. And the first. And women will very rarely, Lord willing, never experience the full strength of a man to understand just how physically different we are. And so you see those two things and it's kind of earth shattering, like, wow, men and women are really very different. My whole worldview collapses. And then also, I think you're very right about the number of women who in conservative media are making significant sums of money that their, you know, conventionally employed husbands generally can't match. If you're a successful influencer on social media, you can, you can do quite well for yourself. A salary job makes that very difficult for many men. And so that's a challenge that I think many are just afraid or unwilling to go through. And so it ends up having an impact on the family.

Ali D [00:20:10]:

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't want to make anybody angry because I don't need people in my inbox, but that's make them angry. What's the recipe for disaster? Because, you know, women care a lot about their social reputation, then if you're on social media does help to be younger and hotter. So then you have to worry about the way that you're aging and these are all just things that you shouldn't have to be concerned with. But if you're financially dependent on your social media income as a woman and you're getting married and you're having children with this guy, that's going to add things to your plate that shouldn't matter. Like, I shouldn't have to worry about the symmetry of my face as I age or whether or not I should get Botox or, you know, my makeup, my, my hair texture, my hair color. There's just so many more things to be concerned with because I recently saw a post where this female conservative commentator was talking about how her engagement has dropped and she's really, really hoping that it's just temporary. Now, first of all, social media is fair weather. So there's, there's something strange going on with X right now, in my opinion. I think the monetization led to a lot of content, engaging farms abroad that kind of just drove down the pool of money. That's one thing. The other aspect is that the woman who is coming out and saying that her engagement has dropped. She's in her 40s, and I know that it's really hard for women to believe if they have a successful social media following, but pretty much everyone would rather hear about politics from a younger, hotter woman than a matronly woman. It's just a reality and it's a fact. And it's something that I had to realize because I genuinely thought like, okay, well, I'm gonna get into content creation. Maybe I'll be able to get hired by a company and maybe I can do something bigger. And then I kind of realized I think being married held me back. And I think also you'd not, you know, I'm not, I'm not looking to look smacks. What you see is what you get. I'll put on some makeup and I'll do my hair for an interview, but I'm really not that concerned with how I look or, or even my physique because I'm in the middle of having kids. I can't care about how skinny I am. I can, but I'll be crazy and it's going to mess with my family and I'm just not willing to do that. So, you know, I would have liked to have responded to that woman's post and been like, hey, you know, you're in your 40s, like, and you're covering politics. It's not gonna last forever. There's only one Megyn Kelly. There's also only one Candace Owens. And this is not. Well, I mean, I love Candace, but you know how I am. Yeah. And that's not to nag her. It's just there's only ever going to be a few very successful female social media conservative personalities and you kind of just have to accept where you are. Megyn Kelly, her story, in my opinion, is not necessarily one to be glorified or idolized. You know, I don't wanna, because I don't want it to negatively impact anyone on the stream. Yeah. So I could just say look at her family planning and look at how that has gone and can you afford to do the things that she did in order to have her family and have her career? For most of you ladies, that's not going to be true whether you're a content creator or not.

Will Spencer [00:23:36]:

All this gets to a very sensitive issue in American and Western culture right now, which is where do, where do women define, derive their sense of identity and fulfillment from. And is it from the market? You know, whether you include the state you can careers, content creation, etc. Or do you derive it from the home and the family and only one of those can be in the primary seat. You can't derive from both equally and you have to make a choice. And, and one of them, I would say deriving your, your, your sense of identity from the, from the market has a declining returns, which is what I think you're describing, declining returns over time. But if you derive your sense of identity and Fulfillment from the home that has increasing returns over time, but it's considered far less glorious in our culture. And so maybe less, quote unquote, sexy, maybe a little bit less cool, maybe a little bit lower status, quote unquote. But ultimately it's, it's where the true source of fulfillment is found for both men and women, I think.

Ali D [00:24:36]:

Yes, but I also think that you can cultivate a community where it's high status how much time you spend in your home.

Will Spencer [00:24:42]:

Correct.

Ali D [00:24:42]:

Uh, how much you love your husband, how many kids you have. Now that is where you can get to the toxic, prideful side of Christianity. But I mean, at the same time, you know, that's just, that's a common sin that Christians refer to as being a challenge to them is pride. But my point is you have kind of two options, right? So you have the secular option where if you're not a career woman and not doing it all and not super fit and sexy, then you're not going to be admired. Or you go to the super fundamentalist side and it becomes a competition of how well can I cook, how clean can my house be, how much can I serve my husband, love my husband, how much can I serve my kids, love my kids, how many kids can I have? But really, I mean, if we're going to compare even the super fundamentalist, like toxic side of things, I find that to be much more favorable in any way. Those women are going to get burned out. Okay? They can't keep, you know, an act up forever and the Lord will humble them, so it's okay. But in any case, I don't really, even in my community, I don't see a lot of that super prideful side of things because you would have to have the bandwidth for it. And I just don't know a lot of women who do to compete in that form or fashion. But it is nice when you have a social community where it is considered high status to care for your home and that's something that you can curate for yourself. Like growing up, I did not want to necessarily or even dream of living in the Midwest, having a low cost of living. I think I wanted to be a stay at home mom. And I don't think I really thought much about how that would play out. And I certainly didn't, you know, think that I would want to hang out with a bunch of very religious Christians. That was not on my list of fantasies for adulthood. I probably, I think when I was younger I wanted to, you know, like, live the, the Sex and the city life. Keep in mind, I was very ignorant. Okay? And I was young and I was raised on the tv. So don't think that I, you know, I actually wanted that. I just wanted to be, like, thin and pretty and date men and have a career. Right. So that was what I was thinking of as a preteen. And then looking at my life right now at 30, it's. It's very contrasting. But my point is, is there is an essence of submitting to the Lord, because I've thought about it a handful of times. Well, I could just move, you know, this is a little bit boring here. However, I have a really, really, really good church community, and I am not guaranteed to find another one. And so, like, I. I live here, and this is my life. So when I hear people online, they're like, it's so hard for me. Everyone is so selfish. I live in a city like, have you tried moving to the Bible Belt? Have you tried relocating? They're like, oh, well, that sounds kind of boring. Yes. You know, it might be, however, like, what are you really trying to get accomplished with your life here?

Will Spencer [00:27:42]:

Right, right. And ultimately, that city lifestyle, it has diminishing returns over time. It. Maybe it works when you're in your early 20s, or maybe even your late 20s, and maybe even. And maybe you could even extend it somewhere into your 30s. But eventually, as you begin getting older and you start thinking about a more grounded style of living, it has massively diminishing returns, and it actually becomes unfavorable to live in. But people are hesitant to let it go. Like, yes, you can just move to a small town. I mean, you could find a new job, even, and find a sense of healthy community that bolsters you and strengthens you for the second half of your life. Or you can keep chasing the good times that you had in your early 20s, which are long gone and are getting further in the rearview mirror every day.

Ali D [00:28:24]:

Well, I had a terrible time in my 20s. I mean, I had some fun, don't get me wrong, but I joined the military as a woman.

Will Spencer [00:28:32]:

That's right. That's right.

Ali D [00:28:33]:

And I'm telling you, that job beat me into femininity because I joined the military. Oh, it did, Absolutely. And it wasn't. I have never been to combat on paper, I've been to combat in real life. That wasn't my military career, and it was four years and some odd months. But I joined during Obama's Hope and Change administration, and it was very egalitarian. And I didn't know because I wasn't politically aware, you know, and I was just a Democrat because that's what most Latinas who were born in America decide to register as. I. My first unit was a combat arms unit, and the first woman to integrate into my platoon came two weeks before me. I was supposed to be there first, but I was trying to find a place to rent. It's called tdy. They give you time off to find a place to live. In any case, I had no idea what I was walking into. And I found that entire situation to be very, very stressful. And there was so much cognitive dissonance. So, yes, would be a stay at home mom any time of the week. Give me five kids, I don't even really care.

Will Spencer [00:29:43]:

Mm. Oh, yeah. I don't think women really understand what it's like to be competing in an environment. I know this has changed significantly in the military, but to be competing in an environment where men are attempting to perform at their best. Like, if you're trying to perform up to a male standard in an environment that adheres to male standards, they've softened them quite a bit since then. Then. Yeah, it can be really. It can be really stressful because you'll find you can't actually do that. You can't. No, you can't actually do all the pull ups and all and all the push ups. You can't actually ruck with that big pack for so long, you know? No, you're not one of the guys, and you never will be. Maybe that wasn't your experience, but that is the experience of many.

Ali D [00:30:22]:

I mean, I have a lot of thoughts about my experience. Certainly led me to the kitchen, I'll tell you that. I'll be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen any day of the week. What? But it was. It was just the cognitive dissonance that really did it for me. Some of the stuff was physical. Like, yes, I'm differently abled for the rest of my life because of some of my experiences. But it was after the fact when I sat back and I thought, why was I always the slowest one? And I'm like, okay, maybe it's because I'm a woman. And then I thought more because the guys used to yell at me to run faster so that I could run at the same pace as them. But if the first woman came two weeks before me, these guys knew that I was slower than them. Probably because I was a girl and they were probably messing with me and irritated that a woman had invaded a male space. Keep in mind, I just wanted a job. All I wanted was a job and some money for college. So it was a strange time to serve. And I think it's probably going to be a better time to serve under the Trump administration and like Pete Hegset's oversight, hopefully. Hopefully we shall see.

Will Spencer [00:31:28]:

So you didn't go crusading into the military to prove that women were equal to men. You had a very different. You had a very different thought process.

Ali D [00:31:35]:

But you found out, well, I wanted a challenge. I don't think the army was that challenging. If I could, if I were to do it over again, I would have joined the Marine Corps just because they have higher standards. But, you know, a woman wanting a patriotic challenge is not the same goal as I want to be a smaller, less hairy man. And I really did just need a job at the same time. And I was trying to find a way to pay for college and stuff like that. So I didn't go into it with a feminist mentality, but I was definitely egalitarian and brainwashed in that sense. And a lot of that just came from our modern culture and the fact that I didn't grow up interacting with men in the long term, in the home, if you don't have brothers or a dad, you don't really understand how different they are. And that was probably one of my first experiences being exposed to sex differences, unbeknownst to myself was in the military. That's why I'm very anti co ed military. There's lots of reasons for it. And then, you know, the second time I realized just how different men are would be when I was postpartum and married.

Will Spencer [00:32:42]:

That's so interesting because I think I have some version of this conversation with different men, you know, around different subjects during the week. It really, it really is true that there are a lot of presuppositions that both men and women, but in this case, we're talking about women that women kind of just grow up with that don't even know. They don't even know that they carry. They're swimming in the waters of egalitarianism. And that's the presupposition of our society. And there are very few scenarios right now where women are forced to confront those head on. As you said, pregnancy is one of them, the postpartum pregnancy. The military is another one. And I can understand how women who have never even questioned that, and there's no place to stand to question it anyway, they will find that reality comes crashing in on them and it's such a shock to the system.

Ali D [00:33:25]:

Yes. And I do Feel very bad for those women because, I mean, that's just a lot to psychologically overcome and it's just an issue. But you can't linger on it forever. You can embrace it or you can try to run from it, but you can't run forever. I mean, I've seen some women try to, you know, push the girl boss, egalitarian thing into the long term, into their 40s. Doesn't often go well. I mean, that was something that you wanted to talk about was. Yeah, the, the four paths that I believe that women take.

Will Spencer [00:33:57]:

Yeah, I'll pull that, I'll pull up that tweet right now, actually. Go ahead.

Ali D [00:34:01]:

Well, I can't recall it off the top of my head, but I've got it.

Will Spencer [00:34:05]:

I just so happen to have it right here.

Ali D [00:34:09]:

Awesome.

Will Spencer [00:34:10]:

You see that the wall is real.

Ali D [00:34:14]:

Yes. Well, I'm a little bit fed up with intergender dynamic discourse on X at this point. And how much of it is real and how much of it is this eye out. But women hitting the wall, I think it's just a card that men like to throw out there because women are neurotic and they just believe them and they genuinely will think that they expire at the age of 24 or 25. I'm not gonna lie. The most beautiful ever was in my life was at the age of 24. And I'm never gonna get it back. And that's okay. And I'm not supposed to get it back or live there forever. That's not how the Lord designed us. But you can hit the wall long before 30. And that number 30 is very arbitrary and it is relevant to our culture in our time period. Now, in the past, you were considered an old maid or a spinster. I want to say Even, you know, 100 years ago, some cultures, that would be like 23. And I'm sure if you go earlier than that, women were probably married off in their late teens. So a lot of these metrics that we have, they're not real. It's just the wall would be when a woman notices her looks declining, if they even notice at all. Because some women are very oblivious and we have the simp industrial complex that is supporting their delusion. Because I have seen women in my cohort, they're still thirst trapping. They have no idea that they are already as beautiful as they were ever going to be. And they're just on the, on the decline. Right. However. So yeah, if you treat your body badly, you'll definitely hit the wall way, way before 30 and it can even be in your early 20s if you're not taking care of yourself as a woman. But you can still be a beautiful woman at 30. It's just, you will be a beautiful 30 year old woman. That's right. You can't compete with younger women. And that's okay. You know, why would you even want to? But aside from that, if you plan your life well, you'll, you'll spend your 30s with some, some good fruit, hopefully. So there's four paths that I've seen women take in my cohort as a millennial woman. This could be very different for Gen X, definitely different for boomers, but there's. The first path would be already being a wife and mother. You spent your 20s having children and so your 30s, your raising them. And yeah, a lot of women are gonna get divorced in their 30s, but it doesn't change the fact that they have children. So they have something to do. Whether they're going to do it well or not, that's a different conversation. And they have a genetic and a philosophical legacy. But the second route that I have seen women take, and this is what people deny exists or is true, at least on X, the men on X will deny it.

Will Spencer [00:36:56]:

Yes, they will.

Ali D [00:36:57]:

There are women who, they realize that their looks are on the decline, that their fertility is limited, and they are going to find a guy to marry them and they're going to have kids. Whether it's with or without ivf, whether it's one kid, they will figure it out because they realize I made a mistake. These are the things that I want. And it's a high pressure situation to pick a male mate, I would not recommend it to women. However, these women can get married if they want to. If you're seeing a woman who is, you know, 35 and not married, even if she says, oh, I, you know, I really tried and I really wanted it, I'm going to have some questions about that. It doesn't seem like you wanted it bad enough. That's one aspect to consider. Another route that women will take is they will just become spinsters and they'll like it and it's not necessarily healthy. But this is also hard for some men to imagine. They're like, why would a woman spend your 40s and 50s in the streets like gentlemen? I know women in their 60s that are in the streets actually, but that's what they have grown accustomed to. That's what they have learned to crave. And they want vapid male attention and they can always get vapid Male attention. I'm not saying that I condone it, and I'm not saying that it's healthy, but I'm saying that some women just take that option and they never stop. And if you look at nursing homes like, there are high STD rates, this is what people don't think. They think you get older, you stop having sex. It's over and done with. Not true. And I would say probably the last thing that I've seen, which I. I find, I don't know, like, weird, fascinating, confusing is women just fall off the face of the earth. So they don't want to work hard in their 30s or 40s, and they don't have a husband, they don't have kids, they don't have friends. They just kind of hole up in their apartment. That's that cat lady trope. The cat lady trope is real. But again, I'm not sure that people in these circumstances really care. They're choosing a pacified existence. I think we want them to care as people who know that living a virtuous life is more rewarding. We're like, oh, you should care. It's like some people don't. You don't want to throw pearls before swine. So those are the four different ways that I have seen women age. Because the red pill guys, they're right about some things. Okay, These. These things do happen, but they're also wrong about a lot and not very critical on some ideas.

Will Spencer [00:39:23]:

I mean, their worldview is informed in large part by bitterness and resentment. Whether or not they want to admit it, they do see real phenomena. They don't have any good solutions for it, but they do see real phenomena, and they want to deny that there is redemption that's possible. And that's the part that's very difficult. Now, I think we've been talking in this conversation about just how greatly childbirth and marriage and childbirth represents a death to self for women. And it makes sense when viewed that way, that, wow, okay, so I can choose to die to myself at any time before the last possible minute. And I think that's something that's been identified. The last possible minute is like the walls impending. And it's like, well, the decline in look signals a decline in fertility, you know, a marked decline in fertility. And so am I going to die to myself at any moment prior to the last possible moment when I have to? If no, then you will continue living for yourself for a lifetime, and that ultimately becomes very, very empty. But if you. If you as a woman have the strength and As a man, too, we could talk about that. If you as a woman, have the strength to die to yourself, to give up all of your preconceived notions about reality, society, and men prior to the moment, you have to, you open yourself up to years of much more vitality and joy. But when you have the all of society for 60 years saying that doing that is wrong, it's patriarchal, it's oppression, it's evil, and women have been swimming in that. The reluctance is quite high. Unless they're motivated by something deeper than just their own fulfillment. They're motivated by. By God's will for their lives.

Ali D [00:41:00]:

I mean, if you're a young woman, you just have to look at what other women are doing most of the time, and is that admirable? Is that the life that you want? If you don't want the life that most women are getting as they age, then you should do different things than what they've been doing. Because I. I was very unpopular for a lot of reasons in high school and in undergrad and definitely in my 20s with women that I grew up with. I'm telling you, like, the overwhelming majority of them are not admirable. Now. Some have become very professionally successful. They make a lot of money. Some have partied, you know, packed on a bunch of weight, and they'll still be able to get a man if they want to. But, you know, it turns out that I was right is kind of the point that I'm making. But I understand why a lot of women don't make these choices in a timely fashion. And I. I thought there would be more satisfaction in that. I thought that when I got older and I saw the fruits of my labor and the positive choices that I made, I thought that I would feel really great in comparison to my cohort. Really. I mean, first of all, I don't have time to care about what the women I went to high school with are doing right now. That's one thing, which is a blessing. But at the same time, I kind of just feel bad. I. I don't know. It's. It's not. It's not really fun to see people losing in big ways. You know, you think it's gonna feel fun that, you know, you're the underdog that overcomes, and it's gonna be glorious once you're on top. But, you know, like, look at how some people are living and aging. Some people are dying. You know, some people are becoming like addicts or they're putting on a lot of weight. They're just not taking care of themselves. And I've, I've had some, some insight into that just by virtue of being in an age gap marriage, because my husband has outlived a lot of people who made unhealthy decisions in his cohort. He's, he's always been very like, physically healthy. And that's just like crazy to even think about that. People, you know, who shouldn't have passed away. But, you know, the wages of sin is death. So that is very true. We're warned of that. But yes. Doesn't always feel good to win.

Will Spencer [00:43:10]:

Yeah. The, the schadenfreude is not quite fulfilling. Especially, especially because, you know, it's not just you're winning and they're losing. It's that you recognize, particularly from a redeemed Christian perspective. It's, you're redeemed and you're saved and other people are lost in sin and suffering. Right. Like it's not, it's. They're not living a happy and fulfilled life deep inside. They're perhaps lonely or angry. And so that's what, that's what the inner picture of losing really looks like. And of course, we don't want that for anybody. Including. Including from the position of so called victory.

Ali D [00:43:44]:

Oh, yeah. I mean, I can't even imagine being in the position of a woman who, you know, bought into lies and propaganda, particularly about childbearing, you know, because a lot of women are kind of iffy on the marriage thing, but for the most part, most women want to have children at one point or another.

Will Spencer [00:44:04]:

Exactly.

Ali D [00:44:05]:

Whether they admit it or not. I cannot imagine being in the shoes of a woman who, you know, bought into what people sold her. And now you have to pay $25,000 for each round of IVF and you have to go through two or three rounds on average for success. Oh, by the way, most insurance companies don't cover that. So you have to go into debt to have a chance in, a very low chance at having a baby. I can't imagine being in those shoes, but I never wanted to be in those shoes. You know, I took charge of my health young and made decisions young. But it doesn't mean that I don't have empathy or sympathy for those women. I mean, that's got to be devastating.

Will Spencer [00:44:49]:

Oh yeah. It's to, to be relying on expensive medical technology to give you the blessings of fertility that you cast away earlier in your life for reasons. It's a, it's an incredibly risky gamble, assuming it even works in the first place.

Ali D [00:45:07]:

Yes. And that's not even to get into the ethics. I'm actually quite happy to see the ethics and morality of IVF being debated, but I actually don't think it's going anywhere. I really don't. I asked a girlfriend if she thought that the IVF situation would resolve and maybe we would pass legislation to do it more ethically or humanely. Like, for example, in Germany, you can create multiple embryos, but you've got to use them all at once. And they cap out at three, which is understandable because not every fetus or embryo is going to, you know, survive. But in America, we don't have even that to preserve the sanctity of life. So I was asking her if she thought that the situation would ever improve, and she's like, no, I actually think Jesus has to come back for that problem to be solved, which is so sad. And I don't think women really think that deeply about it. And, and, you know, people are conflicted afterward, right, because it is a Faustian bargain. They make all these embryos, and then they just pay endlessly to keep them stored and frozen because they would feel terrible destroying them. So you have all these potential children just sitting on ice somewhere in a, in a facility, which is, I mean, it's so dystopian, I can't even really, like, get into it. So I, But I don't know. Women value the wrong things. They value what's glamorous and what is social status. Or rather, people value that. I think there's a lot of women who think it's really cool and trend and hip to use IVF and, oh, look at me, I can afford to spend all this money on getting pregnant. It's almost like a designer bag. I don't think the designer baby terminology is a euphemism. I think that that is true, but I also think that that's what's happening with surrogacy. Like, oh, look, I can afford to have a baby, and I don't even have to be pregnant. Look how easy this was for me, you know? And it's just getting really weird out there.

Will Spencer [00:47:01]:

That's, that's super tragic. I, I, that doesn't surprise me that IVF and surrogacy can be used as status symbols instead of, I mean, that's so, that's so much worse than being, than having them be used as, I don't know, escape hatches for choices. I don't know, I'm not sure how to put that. But to say that, like, look at me with my extra $75,000 trying to have a kid, you know, I guess how, like, was, was the $75,000, was that worth, I don't know, say, 15, 20 years of your life? Right. If you want to run that calculation, like, I'm going to spend $75,000 on three rounds of, three rounds of IVF. And what that $75,000 bought me was not having kids in my early 20s. Right. So I guess, like, have. It really is like, that's the, that's the, that's the equation. It's like, well, you know, and then, and then you have the kids and it's like, well, would you have preferred having them younger so you can spend more time, more time with them? I guess. But people aren't thinking that way.

Ali D [00:47:59]:

Well, no. And, you know, I don't want to come down on women completely. I understand why a lot of women are waiting until 30 to have children. And I, some of it is like the boss babe life. Yes, sure. But a good portion of it is the dating market and the feminization of men. Because I'm a millennial woman and I am in an age gap marriage. And that wasn't necessarily what was on my, my dream list either as a kid, you know. However, I want to be very clear, that was just out of all the boxes that I could look for in a husband. My husband checked literally every single one, except for, like, being closer to my age range. So I thought it was foolish to not pursue the relationship in that context. Right. Because at some point, like, you do compromise. But in any case, I had a very hard time finding men in my cohort who understood the value of family, who would consider getting married in their 20s, having children in their 20s. So if you're a woman and you even want it, it might be hard for you to find. And, you know, what do you do with that? And so I can't really be too mad at women for waiting so long to have children. Although, yes, 90% of your eggs are gone by age 30. But I would just encourage women who are struggling with dating and applying themselves to take care of their health. You don't want to be dependent on a fertility industry to help you out, you know, at the last second. You want to be able to feel secure in your own body, that your, your body can function as intended. Because I, I see where people are coming from too, where they're talking about, well, you know, my grandmother had children an older age and my mom had children older age. I don't have a problem, necessarily with women having kids in older age. But it's very foolish to think that it makes sense to have your first child in older age. The reason why our moms and our grandmothers probably had children in their late 30s or early 40s is because their fertility window got extended by childbearing young in the first place, which is completely missing from the conversation. Women don't want to address that. You want your grandmother's results, but you don't want to live like your grandmother. Like, news flash, your grandmother wasn't on birth control for a lot of women, although birth control has been around for a while. But my point is it's like, okay, if you're going to take your time with dating and you're applying yourself and really trying to get a positive outcome, make sure you're taking care of your body too so that you're not forced to do immoral or unethical things and not getting yourself into, into debt. Because I mean, the money that these women are spending on ivf, I mean, that is money that they're taking away from their kids. So you have the kid, but then can you even afford to be a stay at home mom? If you spent $75,000 or six figures on this stuff, are you even going to be able to afford to raise them? You know?

Will Spencer [00:50:54]:

Yeah, what could that be going to. I want to highlight something that, that my friend JR said on the stream. You can't have feminism and an abundance of masculine men. And there are lots of ways that that's true, but there's one in particular that I want to highlight. So if you take to say 20, 23 year old college graduates, a man and a woman, and you put them into the workforce, the woman will advance further, faster down, down the professional chain than man will for, for many particular reasons. One of the reasons is that, is that men, in relating to other younger men, view younger men as competition. So it's like, kid, you got to pay your dues like I do. So they're gonna like as, as we say, bust, bust his balls. A man won't do that to a woman. So a woman will. A young woman will advance further, especially if she's pretty, people want her in the room. If she happens to get a woman boss, the woman boss will deprioritize the man and elevate her. So at the age of 30, the same young woman will have advanced further in her career and be earning more than the man at age 30. And so that creates an imbalance in salaries and then you get the whole like dual income, no kids thing. And so you set up the deck ahead of time to bias towards women. And so women naturally don't want to get married because why should I marry a man who's making less than me? And so the only answer, and of course this is more difficult than ever, is you both get married in your early 20s and you hack out your 20s together under difficult circumstances. Yes, but you make the choice to do it. But everything in culture, including within the church in many cases, tells them not to do that. Oh, you need some time to yourself. You need some time to discover yourself. They're not willing to support the young couple, particularly as the man makes early career mistakes, as we all do. And so the situation is set up biased heavily against marriage until the last possible minute, when women throw themselves in the dating market hoping that they're going to find a man to catch them. But he's not looking for her at that stage. He's looking for the younger girl back then. And it's a gigantic mess. And the only way out, as I think you rightly said, is it's probably going to take Jesus to end feminism. I don't really know what else is going to do it.

Ali D [00:53:02]:

Well, I think too, in some capacity, you do have to compromise in the mate that you're selecting. You know, as a woman. I, I don't know, it makes sense to be choosy about who you marry. Do not get me wrong. But if you look at scripture, I don't think that it's at all suggested that you can find your perfect match. I think a really healthy or really positive marriage is created and it's not found. So, you know, maybe your boyfriend in undergrad is like a little bit dorky. You know, he might not be that way by the time he's 35, right after you've had a few kids and he's like invested in his career, because I've seen that many, many times that like this, you know, kind of scrawny, lanky kid gets married and he takes on a wife and they go on to have children. And then, you know, in enough time, if he's living healthily, he kind of comes into his own, masculinity wise. But that same process happens with women too, because a lot of women are going into, you know, if they're getting married young, they're going into marriage a little bit feminist, maybe not the cutest, maybe a little bit frumpy, maybe a little bit harsh. But through time, through marriage, through children, they, they end up softening up, you know, so it's like who you marry is not necessarily who you're going to be stuck with for the rest of your life. People change, and they have their own seasons. But I think young people just don't have that wisdom to know that. And so they get very, very picky. Well, I want the perfect wife. Well, I want the perfect husband or, you know, perfect fiance. It's like, okay, well, even if you get perfect, you're probably still going to have, you know, some compatibility issues. This is the opposite sex that we're dealing with. So I, I actually really admire women who made that difficult choice to get married in their 20s and to, you know, be committed to that guy and see what happens on the other side, because you can choose poorly. That does happen to some women, and it's terrible. And there's consequences that everybody has to pay for something like that. But it's also like, my perspective on sexual immorality. I don't, I don't really want to hear from women about saving yourself for marriage unless you did it. This is just me, like, my personal bar, my personal standard. Because it's a very, very vulnerable thing for a woman to never entertain her options, never, you know, fall to her flesh and, you know, just save herself for her husband. Obviously, I think it's the right thing to do. I think it's the good thing to do. But to trust that, you know, this man is going to take care of you and, you know, he's going to work on maintaining his. Your attraction to him and the polarity in the marriage. Like, that takes a lot of faith in the Lord to do that. Versus, actually, I didn't save myself for marriage. Neither did my husband. We got married. But you all should save yourself for marriage. Like, it's not the same level of vulnerability. I can appreciate the wisdom that's there, but it carries more weight when it's coming from a woman who did it. And I actually love my girlfriends who saved themselves for marriage. I'm like, oh, you guys are so wise. And it's, it's going very well for them. Like, I'm a huge fan.

Will Spencer [00:56:21]:

Yeah. I mean, there's. There's no guarantees. Right. However, I would. I would say that the surest way to, to ensure that you found a godly spouse who's going to honor God in his own body or her own body is by saving yourself from marriage. Because the surest way to make sure that you become completely blind to the faults of, of someone that you're in a relationship with. Is to get physically mixed up with them to any degree at all. Period. No kissing. Because as soon as you get. As soon as you start getting physically involved, the hormones flood your body and the hormones override the rational processing, and they become the greatest thing since sliced bread. You fall in love, and you're not paying attention to the red flags that go sailing by. And then you get married, and then the hormones die down, and you're suddenly forced to confront who this person is that you've married. And you recognize that. You see these behaviors in them that were there from the very beginning, but you dismissed them. You didn't bring them up because you were too busy making goo goo eyes at each other instead of being like, hey, you said that earlier. Can you explain that to me? Or I saw you do that thing earlier, and I'm not really sure what to think about it. Let's talk about it. And so if you want to make sure that you're making the best bet when you save yourself from marriage, you do that by saving yourself from marriage and keeping your critical faculties going.

Ali D [00:57:38]:

Oh, I mean, I definitely think purity is the standard. Gosh, I've theorized this before, so obviously this is going to be controversial. So I think it's very important for a woman to marry the best sex of her life. This is just what I believe. But there's only two ways to do that, right? And the. The one way is, well, you've been intimate with a man, and now you really got to craft your bargaining skills quick, fast, and in a hurry because, you know, you had such a wonderful time and you're very attracted to this individual. So that is kind of having to. To fix a problem that you made versus saving yourself for marriage because your husband is going to be the best sex you've ever had, because you don't have any other person to compare him to. And I have. No, no, no, no. The. The second part is controversial. Women are like, what? Like, you really think it's super important that I marry the best sex of my life? If I've been promiscuous, I'm like, yes, that's why you shouldn't be promiscuous, because the more that you put yourself out there, you're exposing yourself to, you know, all these different wonderful sensations. And women don't do well in marriages with men that they're not attracted to. They can get pretty mean. And I think that that leads to a lot of divorce, you know, because I've had. I've seen people who get married and they were just always very powerfully attracted to each other. And those marriages seem to fare fine whether, you know, they're Christian or not. So there are a lot of Christians who did not save themselves for marriage, but they were able to marry someone they're attracted to. And that's very beneficial. Hopefully, like, they repent. But yeah, I mean, that, that happens quite a bit. I just wish people could be, you know, realistic. We have the standard. Okay, well, if you have fallen short of the standard, how can we have some wisdom going forward? I feel like that part of the conversation is missing a lot because I've. I've got. Got some really wonderful girlfriends who are married for a long time, but they, they had premarital sex with their husbands. I would say probably most of them did. However, they understood, like, this is, this is the man that I'm marrying. And we're gonna have to do a lot of repenting and we really need to move up this wedding date because we can't stop touching each other. Which I wish more people encourage that. Like, listen, okay, it doesn't really matter. I don't know how to word this. Yes, you want to have your fancy ceremony with your family, but your husband or your wife, that is who you're going to be yoked to for life. So if you guys go to the courthouse early, no one has to know. And that is totally okay. I actually don't see an argument as to why that's not okay. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Will Spencer [01:00:14]:

Yeah, Yeah. I would say that, like what we're talking. We're talking about two different things. We're talking about like, God's standard, and we're talking about what do we do if you fall short of God's standard? And those are, those are two separate things. So I don't want, I don't want to condone that. It's okay to fall short of God's standard. There's, there's consequences for that. Are there? There are many of them. Right? And I have a man. If you go to my link, tree, Link, link, tree, slash. Will Spencer. I have a. I have a men's chastity guide that gives 13, 13 reasons why men should be absolutely pre. Chaste prior to marriage. And they're all there and you can read them. And so there are 13 different, even material reasons that you can pick through. However, people do. People do fall short all the time. So in that case, and I don't, I'm not condoning it, but it is a reality. So what do you do in that situation, I think that. I think repenting is one and stopping it. Like, keep your hands, keep your hands off each other, confess to your pastor, confess to your family, confess to your friends and let them know that you've fallen short and then try and do it right from that point forward. But like, I think, I think the idea, like, around, like that you should marry the best sex of your life. Yes. Because it should be the only sex you've ever had. But thinking about it in other terms, it's like, okay, you want to make sure that your physical relationship with your spouse is fulfilling for both of you, which is why you have that conversation. And it's so awkward to be talking about sex in our culture because we have all these mixed up ideas about it. But you have to talk about it in a very rational way, like, what are your expectations? You know, what is it, what is it that's important to you so insofar as you know yourself, that side of yourself, and you just have that conversation very openly? And I think that women can be pretty intuitive when it comes to, when it comes to men in that aspect of masculinity. But I don't, I don't think sampling to check is, is. Is a great idea. And I think I would also say that a man who's capable of restraining himself through the entire courtship process, that's a man who's going to honor you properly in the way that you need, in the ways that you'll need, because he's honoring himself. And so I think, I think premarital chastity addresses all of these, if you're willing to be courageous in your approach to the subject, which not a lot of people are. And that's, that's where I think people go wrong. It's like, I don't want to bring up this topic because it's going to be super awkward and stuff. It's like, well, if you're going to let. Leave something in the dark and just hope that magically it all works out when you're married, you have to be braver than that. God calls us to be braver than that. And to confront these subjects with truth speaking truth in love.

Ali D [01:02:38]:

Well, there is a lot of wisdom in saving yourself for marriage. And I, obviously, I think it's the right thing to do. It's not even, I think it's the right thing to do. I know it's the right thing to do. Right. I'm just a big fan of the courthouse because I see women, you know, we're a Little bit more on the neurotic side. We're like, oh, well, you know, like, what if, what if I get married before everyone? Like, my parents want me to have this big fancy ceremony and it has to be at the day, the. At the date that we are getting married at this building, you know, when we have a pastor and like all these things. And I, I'm just a huge fan of elopement. Like, if you are really, really struggling. Right. Yeah. If you're really struggling and you both have good character, like, just, just get married. I mean, but that's me. And that's just what I think about, you know, young love and in that context. Because what is the. You really need to wait until you're spending, what, 25,000, $30,000 a year later to have a party with witnesses. You're allowed to be married sooner is kind of like my point.

Will Spencer [01:03:43]:

Yeah, well, here's what I would say. Is that what constitutes a marriage. What is what constitutes a marriage when the state says you're married? Or is it when God says you're married? And what constitutes a true marriage is when God says you're married, that requires a pastor and that requires witnesses. So the reason why the pastor says you may kiss the bride is that that's when you have permission to kiss the bride, you don't have it before then. So if you want to do a more, a faster wedding versus waiting and spending money, you can do that, but do it in a God honoring way. Have your friends, have your family. It does not have to be a big. It does not have to be a big production, but it does have to be honored in the sight of God. And you do have to have a man of God officiating. And that's what actually makes it official. Not when, not when our state, which now marries, quote unquote, marries gay people. Not when the state says so. So if you want to have a wedding sooner, that's great. You can get married next week. Just make sure that your pastor is there. Make sure you do it honorably in the sight of God. Make sure your family and friends come and then, and then it's for you. Or you can wait to do the marriage. But I definitely like be chaste before marriage. Save it for your wedding night. It will mean so much more. But do make sure that whatever you do, you don't do for honoring in the sight of what the United States government says, do what's. What God says is honoring. And that's where the true rewards will be.

Ali D [01:05:02]:

Yeah, I guess I would say, like, just have the courage to be married. You know that. I mean, that's really what, that's what it comes down to, right, is, I mean, you're going to be yoked to this person for the rest of your life. If you're like, listen, guys, for reasons that are private for us, we will be moving this up. But no, I agree with you talking about like having your pastor being involved. I guess there's a, there's just a lot of like parents and in laws that kind of get, you know, they get irritated at the idea of something like that, that you would arrange a ceremony sooner for reasons that are like your business and your business alone. But once you are married, you're one flesh and it's gonna probably be a few times where you're gonna have to separate from your parents and stand up for your parents and become your own adult, becoming a wife and becoming a husband. But this is just something that I see young people really, really struggle with. At what point are they an adult to make their own decisions?

Will Spencer [01:06:00]:

That's right. Yeah. And I believe that the, I believe it's the groom to be should seek the blessing of the bride's father. But the bride's father is not an absolute authority. He may, he may choose unjust reasons why he's not a suitor. And then you have the pastor involved as sort of his accountability. So there's a, you know, in proper Christian courtship, there's a, there's a process to go through so that you know that you're not flying blind. And I think that's the big problem that many people in the secular world deal with is that they absolutely fly blind through the romantic process. They meet at a bar on whatever night or on Tinder or whatever, and then they, they sleep together the first, second or third date or something like that. And then like, well, do we just like live together now? Are we together? When do we get married? And then it has to be a big thing. That Christian courtship answers all of those and gives a clear set of responsibilities for both the bride to be and the groom to be. And if you follow that and you actually do propose and she says yes, then you can get married whenever you want. You can get married the next day if you want to, right? Yes, of course, if the blessing has been given to propose and the, and the bride says yes and the groom is in, then you can choose to get married whenever you want. As long as you do it in a God honoring way. You don't have to invite 100 people, people and throw a big party. If that's not what you want to do, you know, it's necessary to have people there to witness it. It's necessary. You want to have people there to celebrate this great journey with you. But if you don't want to do that or you can't afford doing that, I know weddings that have been done for under $5,000, that might even be a high end of the budget. And I do think that Disney culture has made weddings have to be this gigantic spectacle. And I think that actually dishonors the wedding. Would you, when you turn it into a spectacle, as opposed to a very simple God honoring kind of thing where the beauty is inherent in the event itself.

Ali D [01:07:46]:

It's almost like an idolization of the wedding and then partially an idolization of marriage. And that is not a good foundation for marriage, in my opinion. But there's something else that I wanted to say because I think some women are scared to save themselves for marriage because they feel like they're not guaranteed to have a rewarding and fulfilling sex life. So they feel like they have to do what their girlfriends are doing or like, if they have to, you know, test drive, which. That's a pretty gross concept itself if you really, you know, sit back and, like, contemplate it. But I wanted to say that a lot of people kind of have unrealistic expectations of interpersonal relationships. Most of how good it goes or the quality of it is a skill to be crafted. And the marital bed, if you look at it as a skill set, you can work toward having a rewarding time. Now, obviously, I cannot get into details because it's a very sensitive subject. And I wish, I wish there was some more romantic female Christian mentorship that women could have in private to exchange some tips and tricks of the trade so that they wouldn't have to go to secular sources. But I don't think. Yeah, I don't think Christian women have really figured out how to. To go about that. But my point is, is if you're saving yourself for marriage and you're having an awkward time, first of all, there are people who don't save themselves for marriage and they still have an awkward time.

Will Spencer [01:09:19]:

That's right.

Ali D [01:09:19]:

So you just look at the marital bed as a skill and you can have a good time and your husband can have a good time, and you are not doomed to have a terrible, miserable sex life just because you made a choice to honor God. It's kind of the point that I'm making.

Will Spencer [01:09:35]:

That's right. That's Right, that's, that's very true. In fact, there's, there's an entire book of the Bible that's, you know, at least in part about the, about the physical relationship between a husband and a wife. And that's the Song of Solomon. And it's, it's a very, it's, it's one of the most under recognized books, I think. And of course it's not just about that. There's many layers to the meaning of it, but it is about that physical devotion that a husband and a wife are supposed to show to each other. And it is God honoring to enjoy that. And so maybe that's a question. And you're not the first person that I've heard say that she wishes that there were more resources on sex and sexuality for faithful Christian couples. That it wasn't just something that was relegated to like, well, you all are going to have to go figure that out on your own because we don't talk about it. I think the marriage bed and sex and sexuality was meant, was created by God to be enjoyed. I've heard it referred to, and I quite like this as God's wedding present. Like hallelujah. What a great way of thinking about it. And so to, to be able again to be able to have those conversations and to say, like, look, hey, this is very important to me as a man or it's very important to me as a woman. If we're going to be going into the bond of marriage, let's, let's talk about it in a God honoring way. Let's not make it lustful or lascivious as the word. Let's just have a very rational conversation. Is this important to you? Is this something that you want? You know, this is what I, this is how I know myself. You know, this is who I think I am in this regard. Like, how does that strike you? And who are you? So that we make sure that when we go again kind of blind into this first night together that we at least have minimized the risk. I think another thing I'd like to say is that I think that there can often be an overvaluation of sex and sexuality in our culture as well. Right. And so, yeah, you're nodding. So, but I think it's just something that's such a high value and it didn't used to be and that's just the nature of how we think today.

Ali D [01:11:19]:

No, it's just crazy. Like I've, I've been accused of idolizing sex and some of the content that I put out there. But, you know, I gotta be honest with you guys. Like, there are young, fertile, hormonal Christian women who have desires and urges and somebody's got to talk to them or the world is going to talk to them at the same time. Right? The whole, like, lustful falling in love, hot and heavy part of dating or courtship, or that newlywed phase, it is so short in the grand scheme of being married 30, 40, 50 years. And I'm not saying that the honeymoon phase has to end, but I am saying there is like an element of curiosity and mystery that is there and very, very much to the forefront early on in the relationship. But you do get used to one another in a physical capacity, a psychological capacity. And this is why I'm saying it's really helpful to look at the marital bed as a skill set, as something that you have to pay attention to, and what you put into it is what you're going to get out of it. But there is a lot of overemphasis on these really wonderful and super intense feelings that they're going to fade over time. And, you know, yes, you can have a healthier sex life in older age as well, don't get me wrong. But your hormones are going to shift and they're going to change and you guys might actually start craving it less and maybe you would both be into snuggling more. So I, I do think it's way overemphasized and it's so strange because our culture is so hypersexual and sexless at the same time. I don't, I don't like the American idea or the American culture surrounding sex. I almost feel like maybe Italian Catholics have it right in that regard. I don't know. This is just what I think.

Will Spencer [01:13:23]:

How do they. How do they. I don't know how Italian Catholics have it.

Ali D [01:13:26]:

Yeah, well, okay. So first of all, I mean, this would just be, you know, very, very much a subjective interpretation or opinion. I do think Catholics are more sex positive. I. But it's probably because they have this very. Yeah, again, super subjective. It depends on who you know and what you think. But then at the same time, there are some really interesting, I should say, like Catholic, I think, theology or doctrine regarding sex too. So it's, it's super subjective. It's just the people that I have known who are Catholic, they're very sex positive. But it's because sex makes babies and they really love babies. Somebody. Yeah, if somebody says that they have seven kids, typically your first thought is, are you Catholic. You know, you'd probably do a double take if they're like, oh, no, actually I'm a faithful Protestant. Like, you wouldn't. It's not your first impression. Right. So that's, that's one aspect, but then I think Italian culture in general, they're, they're very embracing of sexual. It's like a regular.

Will Spencer [01:14:28]:

Oh, yes, Italian culture, for sure.

Ali D [01:14:30]:

Yes. And so it's not like this, like, strange thing that is super taboo and needs to be hidden. It's like kids know that their mom and their dad, they have sex, they know that their grandparents are having sex. Whereas in America, it's, it's just strange. It's again, hypersexual but sexless at the same time. It's almost like the primary sexual landscape these days is digital. I think a lot of people have unfulfilling sex lives, which is unfortunate because you don't have to. But that's just my take on Italians and Catholicism and how I feel like that they're more sex positive than other demographics, but super subjective experience. And it depends on who you know.

Will Spencer [01:15:10]:

You know, what's funny is the, the Puritans, some of the early settlers of America, were, were. I don't. Maybe sex positive isn't the word, but, but they were the word Puritan. When we hear that word today, we think of people very dour and very serious. But the Puritans were actually very faithful Protestants and they were very, they were very joyful in their life. In fact, Pastor Toby Sumter has a number of good sermons on the subject, and his book no Mere Mortals is excellent as well. And because they recognize that sex was a gift from God and it was given to be enjoyed in the right context. And it's. And it's very strange how. I think you're right. I think the, the church has absorbed many of the modern west thinking about sexuality. That we're either gonna, we're either gonna shoot it all over the world, pray it all over TV and everything and, you know, wherever and. Or we're not going to talk about it at all. It's going to be this very shameful thing. And I think one is a reaction to the other. Like, I think it's very easy for anyone, Christians in particular, to look at our hypersexualized world and say, well, we're not going to be that. And so we're going to dive into the opposite ditch as opposed to turning to God's word and saying, well, what does God say about it? Like, this is a gift meant to be enjoyed in the proper context. And it's not something to be ashamed of. It's not something to be afraid of. It's something to be. It's something to be enjoyed. And I think, like that, again, that Christ heals so many of the things that are wrong with modern American culture. But Christianity is very specific about where and how to use sex. And that idea is not popular in an age of my body, my choice. Like, how dare you. How did God doesn't get the tell me what to do with my body? Well, as a matter of fact, he does. And he. But he wants the good for you. And that, that single topic since the 1960s in particular, really, the 1950s, you could probably go back to the 1800s if you want is so unpopular to say, like, oh, it's my body, my choice. God can't tell me what to do is like, as a matter of fact, he can, but he wants the best for you. And, and I, I really hope that this becomes more of a conversation or culture so we can come into a right relationship with sexuality instead of making it the most important thing in our lives. Because as you said, it isn't. As we grow up, as we grow old together, as we go through, through life together, it's not going to be thinking about the bedroom. It's going to be thinking about all the other areas that couples, that married couples move through that have just as much as. Just as much to say about the quality of our lives. That's an aspect of it. It's the glue that binds everything together. It's an expression of the couple's devotion for each other. But that's not the end of the story. But. And that's how Americans tend to think, though, that the story ends in the bedroom. Like, it really doesn't.

Ali D [01:17:39]:

Well, I, I also think it's interesting how fed up people are with some of the media that we have where you're seeing more and more people demand less sex scenes and art. Because, honestly, it has been, it has been overplayed and overdone. I don't need to see all that. If I'm watching, I'm trying to watch a movie with my family. You can't just fade the black.

Will Spencer [01:17:59]:

Like, come on, man, I don't want to see it. I don't want to see it. Yeah, I've actually noticed, and I'm not sure if this is my theory. It's like there were so many really intense sex scenes and movies in the 80s and 90s, like Top Gun, you know, that was A very, very famous movie. And there's a. There's an extended love scene in that movie. And that was just one of them. And. And of course, then you fast forward to Top Gun Maverick. And Top Gun Maverick, it kind of pans away and. And wind blows through the curtains. And I was like, okay, because I'm watching it with my dad. It's the, you know. But I think the reason that Hollywood has stopped putting sex scenes in movies is because of the growth of the pornography industry. Like, why would I watch this in a movie theater when I can go see something, you know, ten times more graphic on my phone when I leave? And so I don't. That's not a good development overall. But that's my theory about why it's just not. Not as in your face anymore, you might say.

Ali D [01:18:51]:

Yes. I almost wonder how much of America's sexual. Sexual culture, like Western culture, is. Is just a very, very feminine overreaction to male sexuality. I've talked about this many times. I am so over the porn debate, right? But there is a fundamental demonization of male sexuality, and I don't see that same demonization of female sexuality. I see a demonization of female sexuality to a degree online, but I don't see it, you know, nearly in the same capacity as in the real world. And that's another. I think that's probably why it's getting emphasized too, is because there is major sex differences between men and women, and women just don't. They don't want to understand how male sexuality works now. Yes, well, no, I. I don't think that they want to, because it's not. It doesn't feel good. It actually feels quite terrible because how many times do you hear from a guy, well, oh, this is the kind of woman that we want. We want a woman who's modest or this or that. And if you've ever been, you know, the. The modest woman, a lot of times you get overlooked for, like, a more sexual woman. And so you. You get confronted with this idea that actually men really, really, really are visual creatures and they really do care about how a woman looks and if she looks more sexually alluring, you know, compared to. To you, if you've been that modest woman who has struggled, but you're going to have everyone telling you like, this is the proper way and this is the right path, but you're looking at all your girlfriends who are doing all the wrong things and they're going on and they're getting married and they're having their happy ending, you know, Because I talk to the more socially awkward girlies, you know, or the, the Christian girlies who are trying to make a way out of no way. And no one's giving them really reasonable dating advice. But, you know, there, there is no dating in the Bible. I feel like that doesn't get talked about enough.

Will Spencer [01:20:55]:

Nope.

Ali D [01:20:56]:

Yes, we can discern from scripture that likely the best way to go about this situation is going to be courtship. That, but that. It just takes a lot of wisdom, discernment, contemplation. However, you know, we're doing something new that we just don't have a lot of insight on. And some, some girls are just really struggling out there. And so, you know, I do have empathy for them. So this is what I meant by there are some things about male nature and male sexuality that can be very upsetting for women. Right. And we, we even see it ourselves. We have. For women who have fathers, you know, fathers who are saying one thing, oh, this is how you should dress, you should close your legs, you should do this, you should do that. And then you come to find out like there's infidelity in your parents marriage. And these are the kind of women that your dad has been having dalliances with. I have seen that make a few feminists, actually.

Will Spencer [01:21:49]:

Yeah, the, the hypocrisy is very, is very difficult. And I think the burden of hypocrisy, the consequence of hypocrisy are even higher in Christianity, like, oh, the standards for thee and not for me. Right. And I think one of the, one of the things that plays into this with the socially awkward girlies, as you said, I love that term. I think it's, it's that men have been, Men have learned, many of the good men have learned just environmentally that, you know, going up and talking to a woman is not allowed. Of course, men struggle with their own social awkwardness. Maybe they don't have proper father roles. Maybe fathers haven't discipled them to be more forward in, in, in their approach to anyone, men or women. And so you have the, you have these socially awkward girls who are waiting for a good and godly man to approach her, but he doesn't, he doesn't have the courage to do it. He doesn't know how to do it. But there might be five guys and, but she doesn't know that because they haven't walked up to say hi because they're afraid. And so I've been joking recently that I think it might be time, you know, for the Christian world to rediscover the concept of game. Like obviously not, not, not from the nightclub L. A Days from the, from the late 90s. But I mean for men to have the courage to. Yet don't just try to meet somebody on a Christian dating app. This is, this is the advice that I give to all guys. I give it to women too, but I give it to guys. Go to go to the, where the women are. And that if you're looking for a faithful woman, a faithful woman, you're either going to find her at her church, which may not be in your neighborhood, or you're going to go to a Christian conference. And you go to a Christian conference that has all the different theological distinctives that are meaningful to you. And if you see a girl there, walk up and talk to her. It's like old school, right? And guys are like, I don't want to do that. Well, then be alone. Right? But that's how things used to be. And so maybe you should learn to discover a little bit of the courage to talk to, to that socially awkward girl. Because I think men are attracted to a wider variety of women than the media often lets on.

Ali D [01:23:38]:

Yes, I agree with that. But I also think that the hypersexual women can be very distracting. And so it's like you as the modest woman, you kind of have to find a way to compete with that or to get noticed. But this is why I've also encouraged women or the socially awkward girlies, I've encouraged them to be more assertive because they will go to Christian women who are married already for advice on dating. And women are very vibey. A lot of women cannot tell you why their husband chose them for marriage. They, they have no, no idea. I've heard this phrase a lot. Well, you know, when I stopped looking for a husband, that's when the Lord blessed me with, when I decided to just focus on God, like completely neglecting that she was a size 4. 4. She was in the gym, beautiful, radiant, young, fertile, sociable, charming. Just ignoring all of that and then telling their, their girlfriend who's socially awkward and trying to find wisdom, well, you know, you should just give it to God and you should just be pursued. You know, ladies, if a woman is going to you for dating advice, it's because she's not being pursued and she wants to be pursued. So that, that's where I tell women, like I actually do think it's okay to make the first move. But people think that when I say make the first move, I'm talking about kissing. I'm not talking about K thing. It's actually a very aggressive first move. And I, you know, I don't know a lot of women who are going to roll the dice on that one. But don't.

Will Spencer [01:25:03]:

Don't do that.

Ali D [01:25:04]:

Yeah, don't. Don't do that. Because if you kiss the wrong guy, that's going to be devastating.

Will Spencer [01:25:08]:

My turn into a frog.

Ali D [01:25:10]:

Oh, man, it just would be mortifying. But imagine if all that is standing in between you and your future husband is saying hello or asking for a phone number or. Or, you know, just striking up a conversation, if that's it, that maybe you guys should start saying hi a little bit more, you know, and if the guys are not biting, maybe you might be aiming a little bit too high. Maybe we need to work on some more, you know, what makes you attractive in dating. Because a lot of dating is attraction. Maybe you need to work on that. Or we can just, you know, be a little bit more humble in our choosings with men. I'm not saying to go to the bottom of the barrel, but I am saying there are guys, sometimes that are looking for a specific kind of girl, and sometimes you ain't got it and you're never going to have it, and that's okay. And you don't need to try to force yourself into someone you're not. You have to play up to your strengths and minimize your weaknesses. It's kind of my perspective. Like, I. If a man really, really wanted, you know, like, a soft and demure woman, I would not be shooting my shot with that kind of guy because that's not my personality type. That's not me at all. So I could see myself very much floundering. Like, if I found myself in the. In the dating market, you know, young, vivacious, like, louder. I am. Louder. I'm working on it. But I would not try to go for a guy who. That would be the polar opposite of what he's looking for.

Will Spencer [01:26:30]:

Yeah, absolutely. And I think you make a really good point that is valid for both men and women, which is, are you doing everything you can to maximize your assets and minimize your strengths? You know, like, for a man or woman. Like, are you. Are you in the gym? Are you taking care of your body? Right? Are you. Are you working on your social skills? I would say that for a woman, I think it used to be understood that there was a sense in which women would make the first move, but it's not how people think of it. Like, women would, like, drop the hanky is what that would be. Called, you know, like a man's walking by, she's like, oops, I dropped this. And then he picks up the hanky and he hands it to her, right? And that was the dance of courtship. And that was, that was facilitated a first conversation without her being so overt and walking up and being like, hey, how you doing? What's your name? And so I think there's, there's a lot. I, I tend to put the onus on men that like, look, if you see a woman across the, across, across the, the room and, and there are so many movies like, particularly that, like 1940s, World War, World War II movies where you see like you've got the, you've got the, all the soldiers or whatever in this giant hall and there's some big dance happening and the, the guys are with their bro and the, the girls are with their girl and they look across the, they look across the hall at each other and she make makes eye contact with them. Like make eye contact at the guy. And dude, if you're the guy being made eye contact with, take that moment and go talk to her. And that's just the dance of courtship. Is that making the first move on her part? I don't know. I don't think eye contact is that big of a deal. But it still puts the onus on the man to go up and say hi and introduce himself. And it can be that simple. And it was that simple for thousands of years. And somehow now we've become so addicted to our screens and devices and we want to think everything handed to us, but something like that, you can't fake. And so I think both parties have to be courageous to initiate in the various ways that the dance of courtship was always done. And I think that's a beautiful thing, particularly if you trust God with the result.

Ali D [01:28:25]:

Oh yeah. I mean, definitely. If you're a woman and you're trying to be more confident, more assertive in the dating market and you kind of flounder and fail, maybe you get rejected a handful of times, you are still very valuable in, in God's sight.

Will Spencer [01:28:40]:

Absolutely.

Ali D [01:28:41]:

So if you feel rooted in the Lord, you will have more confidence to go out there and fumble the plate. I know that that sounds really mortifying for women, but I, I think that that is a major reason why I have been able to be in long term relationships. So I've been in my twenties and now I'm in my thirties. I spent my adulthood in two long term relationships. The second one is, you know, that's. It this is the last one forever. I'm in it for life. But I was never shy about approaching men. And I'm not saying that I appear desperate, but he to me, right? I'm thinking about it from my perspective. What do I want? You know, I want marriage. I want children. I'm attracted to that guy. I want that guy, you know? And so I'm like, okay, well, I want him to notice me, so I should probably say hello, you know, that's it. But the way that I broke out of my fear of rejection and that. That cripples a lot of women. And I'm not encouraging women to be masculine. Do not mistake me, okay, for trying to encourage that. Because women are going to get a lot of advice that's going to say, like, oh, that's masculine, and you're being too assertive, and that's very aggressive. There's a way to be feminine and be assertive, because if you like that guy, I bet other women like him too, and they're letting him know. But for me, what really helped me to get over my fear of rejection was there was this. This attractive guy at prom in high school, and I went to dance with him. I actually can't dance. I can't. I can't carry a tune. I don't have any rhythm. I don't know what pathetic, sad gyration movement I made. But I can tell you that I heard about it in class on Monday in front of the entire class. So there's like 30 people, and this guy basically says in front of all of them that, you know, that I can't dance. And it was very mortifying. But after that, I never cared about approaching men. And I. I am trying to be very clear. Like, you don't have to be aggressive for it. It's like you drop a more straightforward hint and you allow for him to take over. That's kind of how it goes, because if you're not being pursued, it's for a reason. Okay? Maybe you can, again, work on maximizing your strengths and minimizing your weaknesses. Or you just need to put your big girl pants on and say hello to the guys that you're attracted to, okay? Because some of these. Some of these guys that you're attracted to, he could be feeling you, but because of the culture, he's not going to approach you. He doesn't want any problems. He doesn't know you. He doesn't know you from Eve. So he could be thinking, well, if I say hi to this girl at the gym, she Gonna try to get me kicked out. So anyway, that's right. I think there's a way to do it.

Will Spencer [01:31:21]:

I think. I think a straightforward hint is a great way of putting it, I think. And I think and, and this is. This is a unique feature of our age that today men need, you know, straightforward hint, right? So that. Or maybe more straightforward and less hint. And I don't like that. Like, I think women should be. Should feel free to give. Should feel free to give subtle hints. And this is. I think this is why people really like those classic period British films, you know, that take place in the 1800s. It's because the communication that happens between the characters is so subtle, you know, like you just like a subtle eyebrow raised or something like that. It's like that's the biggest deal ever, right? And we've lost that subtlety where now it's almost like we have to be as subtle as a jackhammer. But that's because everyone's so insecure. And I understand insecurity is a feature of human nature and that's okay. But if men were more confident to approach and women were more confident to signal a potential willingness to be approached, like with that, with that hint, I think that that's how it's meant to work as opposed to the way that we tend to do it through screens where everything is much quote, unquote, safer. I think that when we're talking about marriage, particularly today, we live in an anti marriage, anti family culture. So if you want to be a husband or a father, a wife and a mother, you will be swimming upstream. Particularly the younger the, the younger you are, the heavier you'll be swimming upstream. And that requires courage. That requires real courage to pursue it. That means working on yourself to make yourself the most attractive version. Not looks maxing, not like all that, but like maximizing your strengths and then being willing to try new things and get uncomfortable and risk rejection. But the people who are willing to do that, who are willing to wage, I call it all out war, like, I believe that marriage is good and it's godly, it's God's desire for us, and I'm going to swim upstream even within my own culture to go get that. You have to be willing to risk rejection. But every rejection will teach you something if you have that mindset.

Ali D [01:33:16]:

Yes, I think people are looking for a lot of security in the romantic decisions that they're making. But I mean, marriage is a risk. Pregnancy is a risk, having children is a risk. There's so many variables that you can't control for like, yes, you know, you can hedge your bets, but human nature is human nature and human nature is sin to a degree. But mostly I'm just focusing on, you're not going to be able to control for every, every aspect, right? So in getting married, that's a very vulnerable thing to do because even if your, your husband or your wife chooses you for life, their life can still end before yours, you know, and that's vulnerable. And so you lose your person. And so what would. Your, your heart's going to be broken in that context. And if you never married someone, you would never have the possibility of that relationship ending, whether by choice or by mortality. The same thing with like pregnancy. We have a lot of medicine available to us today to make childbirth very safe process. But you're not guaranteed a positive outcome. You're not even guaranteed to take a child home from the hospital, like not to be morbid, not to fear monger people. But I'm saying like we can't control everything. Having children, you can raise your child in the best way possible and they still for some reason become an addict and you can't even like maintain or facilitate a relationship with them. So when people are going into dating and they're trying to control for every single aspect possible, you're probably not going to be very successful because life is not that way. I would never tell someone that that life is that way. I've had too many experiences to counter that. But that is also the value in having a relationship with God and trusting in the Lord so that whatever failures happen, he sees them and he's going to take care of you anyway.

Will Spencer [01:35:12]:

Yeah. Trusting in God's sovereignty. Just a, just a quick story. So I have some friends who are in the special forces community and one of my buddies was telling me about a friend of his and this was like, you know, the guy in the special forces community in many ways, like he had done some incredibly brave, he told me these stories, incredibly brave things that, that would, would challenge any man. And so he was very highly respected man in that community, had survived, you know, many, many encounters, many attacks, you know, things like that. And he is a husband, father, I believe he had five or seven kids, something like that. And he just went out for a short drive with his son to run an errand. And this is that we're talking about like a serious man's man, this dude. He was driving and apparently the car hit, hit a curb some sort of wrong way, car flipped and, and tragically the man just driving his car and his son both. Both passed away. And, and that can just happen like that. And if you don't have a good doctrine of God's sovereignty in that moment, you know, if you don't really have the ability to trust God with those circumstances, incredibly tragic circumstances of your life, whether you be his friend or whether you be his wife or his child, if you don't have the ability to trust God in that, that will be an extreme crisis. But if you do have that depth of faith within yourself, then you know, like, okay, as hard as this is and not to minimize at all, it is a great tragedy. Like, a thousand people showed up to this guy's funeral. As hard as that is, if you trust God with it, you will be okay. And I don't mean to say that trusting God's just an easy thing. You should just wave a magic wand and just rub some Jesus on it. Like, no, like, the depth of that faith is difficult to achieve. But if you do trust God with that, then you understand that in this providence, that is his will, and for reasons that you might not know for many years, but time will reveal. And that's the depth of faith. The depth of faith that we have to get to in everything and all the circumstances of our lives, including dating, marriage, and family, like, it is all his will. And are we willing to trust that.

Ali D [01:37:13]:

Oh, yes, this is a fun. Well, not. Not fun, sure. Rather. More. Rather what atheists think is a fun question to pose for Christians. And I didn't have an answer for it for a long time. I want to be very clear. I, I don't have a theology degree, and I'm certainly not a pastor, and I don't even think women should be pastors. Okay, but what I, What I am saying is they like to throw in this. Well, you know, if God is good and God is sovereign, then why does he make things like childhood cancers? And for a while, I didn't know how to answer that question because I'm like, that's a good one. Then, like, why? Why is that? But once you realize the weight of sin, once you realize how bad sin is, people steal from each other, they hurt each other, they kill each other, like, do these terrible, egregious things to one another. Once you get that, you. You understand. So the problem is not God. The problem is sin. You know, and you. You can't. Again, you can't even control, like, other people's sin against you either. So, yeah, there's a lot of, you know, life that is vulnerable, and then that those same principles would apply to like dating, mating, marriage, all that.

Will Spencer [01:38:28]:

Yeah. And, and you know, when you grasp the gravity, as you said of sin, like Adam, Adam's failure in the garden, Adam neves failure in the garden was not the fall, it was a crash. It was just the idea that two creatures could disobey the creator of the universe to his own face and try and lie about it. You sort of get an understanding of why, why our world has fallen so far. But what makes Christianity unique is that God doesn't stay at a remove from the world. He's not just like looking down and being like, yeah, tough for them. He actually came down as man and suffered more greatly than anyone. Like the work. He was created, crucified for our sins. He was impoverished, he was an itinerant, itinerant man. He was, you know, he was betrayed by one of his own, one of his own disciples. Right. And all of these sufferings that he endured with us. God with us, Emmanuel. God with us. So to the atheist, I say that, well, in the Christian religion, God suffers with us and he pays the price for our sins. It's not, he doesn't sit back at a remove like a, like a watchmaker. He comes down and suffers alongside us to give us hope for reconciliation in him. There's no other religion in the world that's like that. There's not one. And so we don't have to be alone in our suffering. We know that God understands our suffering because he experienced it with us. And that gives profound hope to the believer that the atheist just doesn't have.

Ali D [01:39:51]:

Oh, completely agree, completely agree. I have, I've got some really good friends who are atheists, but they're like the only well adjusted ones. I know. The rest are, I'm serious, they're the only ones. But the rest are very nihilistic. And this is what I find so interesting about some of the intellectual online discourse when it comes to religion is there are a lot of right wing atheists or agnostics that come out and they say, yes, you know, the secularization of America is leading to its downfall. And you kind of think to yourself, okay, well, if you think that is true, and I believe that it's true, but if you think that is true, as a right wing intellectual, why have you not pursued a religion? That's my, that's one question. But then if you're right wing, intellectual American, why have you not pursued Christianity as an option for your spirituality? So it's almost like a rules for thee, not for me. Kind of thing. Well, I think other people should be Christian, but I'm not gonna try that, that Christian thing. That's, it's a bit much for me to believe in God and I get where people are coming from and they want to have these like solid arguments about why God exists, but, well, why, why a Christian God exists and why is that the God of us all or the universe? And there's just a good element of spirituality involved that you can't argue, you know, but you have to go and you have to look for it. I have had some very strange things happen in my journey of looking for God and it's been a very wild ride because I was upset with God for a long time for lots of reasons. But my experience with social media has not been the most positive. For as large as my platform is, it has not been the most positive. I have been hurt by it, you know, several times over, even by Christians. I see you guys don't ever email me for collabs, but what I want to say is I was upset with God. I'm like, why would you give me this talent with social media? Like, what is it all for? All I'm experiencing is pain and stress and strife. But I actually think it led me to eventually finding a really thriving church community. And I don't think that would have happened without social media because when I started networking with conservatives, I was trying to find other Bible believing Christians because you can. I'm not going to say that people are Christian or are not or like, I'm not willing to, to take the grave risk of questioning a lot of people's salvation, but I am willing to take the risk of questioning people's biblical literacy. And so in my experience with social media, I'm just trying to find people who kind of think the same things that I do. I'm like, I'm. Are we reading the same Bible? Do you think that that concept that a lot of people find controversial things like submission is one of them? And I'm sure there's a handful of other things. I was just trying to find other people who believed that as Christians and through meeting them and these God loving and God fearing people, it helped to strengthen my relationship with the Lord. And then that ended up happening in real life. Like there are some wonderful Christians that I have met through social media and I wouldn't have met like really wonderful Christians in that capacity had I not dabbled in it, if that makes sense. Because the Christians that were available to me in my upbringing or in my environment they were not people that I would want to. To listen to, I guess, or people that I couldn't trust, I should say.

Will Spencer [01:43:33]:

Yeah, it's. It's. It's definitely a. I can relate very much to that, you know, having had my own sanctification over the past five years, happening publicly, whether I was aware of what was going on at the time and. Or not. Like, I got baptized before I started my podcast, I did not intend to. For it to be a Christian podcast. It became a Christian podcast and sort of my. My own lack of discernment, my own weaknesses, my own poor judgment has been surfaced for the world to see, and it has been right. So it's been a. It's been a deeply. It's been a deeply humbling experience. But that process has also taught me that all. All of this, all of the social media, this platform, this is a gift from God that he's given me to steward and to shepherd and to recognize that I alone am not adequate for the task. And not only do I need a godly community around me, you know, brothers, brothers in Christ, a pastor, but I also need a daily, ongoing relationship with Jesus Christ to pull it off, because I do not have the wisdom within. Within myself. It's got to be. It's got to be for Him. And he. He tells me in his word, you know, what is. What is asked of me as a professional. Anything. And as long as I stick to that, I can faithfully steward this and remember that, like, this is a gift from him to me, that I. That I. I'm so incredibly grateful for that. I have the opportunity. Not only that he gave me my own gifts as a man, but he gave me this platform and the opportunity to express them. It's all him, you know, 24, 7, 365, forever. And that. That has been such an enormous blessing that he's taught me that. And it takes all the. All the pressure off. Like, I'm still called to be professional and to be wise and to be thoughtful, but now I have counsel, like, hey, you know, sir, what do you think about this? And they'll tell me, it's like, okay, great. I don't have to have all the answers or pretend like I do even.

Ali D [01:45:16]:

Yes. I mean, I don't. I don't really know how to respond because all I'm doing is agreeing with you at this point.

Will Spencer [01:45:22]:

That's great.

Ali D [01:45:23]:

It might be helpful if you asked me some questions, because, I mean, I'm just here to say, like, amen. Correct.

Will Spencer [01:45:28]:

Amen.

Ali D [01:45:28]:

This is the most Christian conversation I've ever had online. It actually makes me very nervous because I don't like. I don't like to lead people astray, and I'm still a baby Christian, but I don't think I've said anything too crazy today.

Will Spencer [01:45:40]:

No, no, I don't think you've said you've said anything too crazy. And you've been certainly open to the discussion and, and through the topics. So I actually, I actually do have some questions which we're kind of touching on. I was curious how your. How your relationship with the whole masculinity femininity dialogue and I guess also as a content creator has shifted since you've become a mother and since you've become a Christian as well, because those are two massive shifts and different. They're parallel, but they're two massive shifts in different ways and must have changed so many different things. You have. There's a tweet that you wrote about it that I can, that I can pull up as well, but I'm very curious how that's changed for you.

Ali D [01:46:20]:

Sure. Well, you can pull up the tweet because that'll probably help to conceptualize or contextualize my thoughts. But my ideas on femininity and masculinity are very, very different than when I started on social media. And also that's why I think so many people are just liars, like Christian secular. Otherwise, y'all out here lying a lot to audiences for clout. But yes. Okay, so what is it?

Will Spencer [01:46:49]:

Here's the tweet. Yeah. What is it about femininity and masculinity influencers that is so cringe and off putting. More specifically, I'm curious about creators of femininity con content. I can say the same about masculine content creators about masculinity. So I read this. I'm like, I can relate to that. So, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. Please go ahead.

Aly Dee [01:47:07]:

Oh, no, that was actually very helpful. But, yes. So these people are strange. Okay. The femininity in masculinity content, it was a trend and it faded. But there's a lot of reasons why it faded. I can mostly speak to the femininity content creation side of things. And I actually, I stopped making, like, femininity content, you know, a very, very long time ago because you can only generalize so much. Different women are born with different personalities and they have different lives that they lead and different experiences that are going to shape them into, you know, the kind of woman, wife, and mother that they're going to become. And not all of these are the wrong answer. Anytime a woman does something that it seems like is out of the box of femininity, which it's very convenient that this box is always centered on the 1950s. Like, was there any other time period that people are obsessed with? It's not even historically accurate, by the way, this. The 1950s trope. But if a woman deviates from this, like, fake, you know, clickbaity ideal, people are very quick to be like, oh, that's masculine. Well, I mean, there's going to be times where you as a woman are going to be called to be masculine. And we. I think that we all have masculinity and femininity within us. So, like, a man, I think he's got some, you know, like, a touch of femininity in him. Some men, probably way too much, maybe need to go back. Maybe you need to, like, pour more into your masculinity. And it's the same thing with women. There's going to be times where you're called to do, like, the harder and more masculine things. Doing those things does not automatically make you a man. And the. The conversations surrounding these things were very, you know, surface level. Like, I will. I will give you an example of something that happened recently where I had a very masculine response, and this did not make me a man. And it wasn't a terrible outcome or anything. I was at the farmer's market with my husband and our firstborn, and my husband went to the car to go and do something to probably. I think it was chilly, and our kid needed some pants because I fumbled a play. I put shorts on. It was too cold. So he went over to go and get the pants that we have in the car, because I always keep an extra outfit on hand. And I turn my back to my child, and I'm at the farmer's market, and I turn back around, and there's this man that's hunched over my baby. And I'm like. I'm thinking. I'm like, I'm about to curse this out. I'm about to say something and to start yelling, you know. And also, I'm pro two. A pro Second amendment. So I started getting, like, really, like, aggravated. And then it takes me some time, like, oh, that's my husband. I'm like, everything's fine. Right. But if I had the masculine response of being like, get the f away from my baby. Who are you? That doesn't make me a man, and that makes me your husband. I know, right? Yeah. Once I Realized it was him. I was like, oh, okay, it's fine. Yeah, but that doesn't make me a man, and it makes me a good mother, and it makes me like a good woman, too. You're going to be called to do these things. Some more examples. Now, these are not personal examples, but, like, if your husband gets really ill and these things do happen in life, like, you could have a husband who gets injured in an accident, suddenly you're the main driver. Some people say that that's a masculine behavior. It's like sometimes you just got to put your big girl pants on and do the hard things. You could have a husband who comes down with cancer, and he needs to be cared for, and you need to do that caregiving. And women, you know, in the online space, they're always talking about, well, like, I need to be cared for. Me, me, me, me, me. Okay, well, men are human, and they go through things, too, whether they're physical or mental. And so those conversations, the nuanced conversations of when a woman would need to take charge or when a man would have to be softer, which could be considered, you know, more feminine, more nurturing, that doesn't really come up because there are some. I don't. It's tough. But if you're going to label behaviors masculine and feminine, we would probably have to label baby caregiving. If a man is doing it, that. That behaviors. Those behaviors would probably end up getting labeled feminine to some degree if we have to label them. Right. And we're working in this binary. But that doesn't make him less of a man. And you probably want him to perform the softer behavior in that moment in time. Right. I think you can overdo it. I think you can be an overbearing, loud, nagging, controlling, masculine wife. I think you can be a submissive, feminine husband. I think those extremes can occur, and they are dysfunctional and they shouldn't be encouraged. But if we're talking about, like, real people in real relationships and you're going to make content about femininity and masculinity, you would think that they would have some nuance in there, but they never did. Because these people that were making this content, they didn't know what they were talking about, and they were single and they stayed single, or they didn't know what they were talking about, and they ended up becoming single or becoming divorced. Like, they didn't really feel convicted. And there's more to life.

Will Spencer [01:52:18]:

What are the odds? No way.

Ali D [01:52:21]:

And there's more to life than being feminine or masculine. Right? You know, I'm not. I'm not gonna look down on a man and, like, shame him if his dog passes away and he's like a puddle of tears and a mess, you know? And in the same vein, I'm not going to look down on a woman who she's, like, suddenly had to become the primary breadwinner, right, because something tragic has happened with her husband, whether he be injured or otherwise. So, yeah, again, those conversations never came up because those people were all single and in their 20s and 30s. And on the other side of it, the fruits never showed up. And so I think a lot of audience decided to pull. Audiences decided to pull away from it. But if I. When I wrote that tweet that you initially referenced, what I was primarily talking about was femininity. Content creators, you know, like, they. The ones that are, like, terminally online. I mean, if you're online a lot or too much, and I've been online, you know, too much before, you can't do all the things you're saying that you're doing online, okay. Unless you're hiring staff. And I don't think most of these women are hiring staff. So you're just online talking about what a wonderful woman, wife, and mom you are. It's like, okay, well, we can kind of see a little bit of your screen time through what you're posting. Why don't you log off and engage in the real world? But I see a lot of women end up idolizing social media if they become any kind of E Girl. And they will sacrifice a family if they haven't had one, or if they have one, they'll neglect their family to look cool and get all this engagement and dopamine. That's why I think conservative media is so funny. You have all these women that are like, get married, have babies. As for me, though, I'm waiting for my TP USA Millionaire to show up on my front doorstep, like, okay, right.

Will Spencer [01:54:11]:

Oh, man, that's. I relate to so much of that. I think as a man who I spent a long time in the conversation of masculinity, I was very blessed by it before I became a content creator in that space. One of the things that became very apparent for me is that it's way easier talking about masculinity or femininity than it is actually living it out in the world in a way that is productive. And so you can. It's easy to get online and craft a Persona through social media that you're, whatever, some sort of, you know, red pilled kind of guru or whatever, and then. But then when you turn off the camera and you're forced to navigate through the real world with real people who don't know who you are or don't care, right. You actually have to be a real person and you discover that your theories about what it means to be a man or what it means to be a woman actually have to confront reality. And there's a degree to which reality is wrong about both of those. But there's a way in which reality kind of forces us to recognize that our absolutist principles, you know, especially for things that are outside of God's law, but are absolute principles about how we want to conduct ourselves, they're subject to social influence. And so ultimately, what I discovered from being in the world of masculinity influencers is that a lot of these men were not who they said they were. And, and they were, oh, what are the odds? So, and that was, that was, that was very upsetting to me to have men talking about masculinity but stopping short of having real personal integrity. Right? Like, do what you say you're going to do. Be the guy that you say you are. Oh, you're not. So why should I listen to you? And yet people do listen because it's way easier to sort of vibe off of someone else's masculinity or femininity than to actually go and cultivate it against, you know, challenges in the real world.

Ali D [01:55:51]:

Oh, yeah, Like, I just think these people are nuts. I, I don't trust anyone online anymore. They are. And I think social media self selects for narcissists because how else would you be able to be a content creator if you weren't narcissistic or high in narcissism? The first negative content, I mean, the first negative comment you got, you would just quit. So I, I understand that, but this is also why I find the Red Pill guys so funny. I mean, in my opinion, and I'm not, I'm not wouldn't say that necessarily, like, content creators are hypocrites because most content creators are all people are hypocrites to some degree. So, so I get that, but I'm saying, like, in the time that I've gotten married and I've had multiple children, and this is also while I've been on social media, for better or for worse, this has all happened while I've been on social media. In the time that I've done that, there are still men who are pushing PUA content. Now, other People are going to come down on the, you know, pickup artistry content creators because they hate male sexuality and they hate male autonomy. No, no, I will put them down because they're corny. That's why I will put them down. I'll put them down because they can't argue with me. I have very. I have a very comprehensive understanding of some of the. The premises and conclusions that they're making. And I'm like, well, it doesn't really seem like you know what you're talking about. It seems like all you know how to do is get laid. And if you have ever talked to a man who had the opportunity to be that guy who was able to sleep with a lot of women, eventually, if they're healthy in any capacity, they can kind of see, like, well, there's more to life than women. There's more to life than sex. This is actually deeply unsatisfying. I don't even want to deal with it anymore, you know, and they just decide to move on from it and they create a new life, whether that is they decide to get married and settle down, and hopefully that fares well. Sometimes it doesn't. Or if they just decide to do their own thing, you know, I wouldn't even call that mgtow, because it's just like some guys, they live that life and they decide, I just want to go hiking and have a dog forever, and that's what I want to do. And I feel really good about doing that. Like, I would never put down a guy for pursuing that life path. Right. So, you know, I have met some guys who tried to fill a spiritual void in their lives with women. It never goes well. You know, again, this is a problem for a small amount of men. I will not deny that. I know a lot of men have a hard. A hard time attracting the attention of women. But for the guys that they know how to get it, you know, and they try to fill a void with does cause them spiritual harm. But again, like I was saying earlier, I'm not gonna, you know, come down on them because I have a problem with male sexuality or autonomy. I'm just gonna say that it's corny. You know, you're out here ruining your life. We can see you aging terribly through the years. I'm pretty sure a couple of men. I mean, I haven't been in that online space very long, so it would be hard for me to recall. But there are some guys that flat out disappear. Some men turn to religion. And then I think some men have chosen to end their Lives, Right. Because I mean, it can be a pretty damaging experience because these guys are looking for love. They want a woman who's going to stick around, who's going to love them for them. And it's very hard to come by. And that can be a very black pilling experience. And women go through some similar things. If you're a very, very, very undesirable, socially awkward woman, you can experience something similar to that. So yeah, I mean those guys are the ones that, that make me laugh a little bit because they want to talk a good game about, well, what makes a good relationship work? Well, how come you don't have a woman to show for it at all in any long term capacity? You couldn't get one? Not one? I don't know.

Will Spencer [01:59:48]:

No, I mean, you know, there was a content creator in that space. I don't know, maybe his name was John Michael, something like that. And he spoke at the 21 convention one year and he boasted of sleeping with over a thousand women. And that dude was a little weird. But the thing is, it came out, it came out later, right? It came out later that he had, you know, decided to sleep with a tranny. Right. And so when you pursue that, when you pursue that lifestyle and you're looking for ever more bigger kicks, let's say, that goes to very, very dark places. And in many cases, like I, I have so much sympathy, I guess in a sense for content creators that have made good livings for themselves selling pickup artist stuff and making a living on that and then recognizing that the thing that they've been selling, like they've reached the end of the line with it and they despise the lifestyle they've lived and they found they find it's not fulfilling anymore. And then it's like, well, I can no longer produce this content anymore, but this is my source of my livelihood. Am I just going to hard pivot in my life? And they keep going after that fact because that's their job. And I, I so respect the trap that that creates. And you know, I think, I think of, there's a, there's a great video, there's a former award winning porn star named Randy Spears. And if you go to YouTube and you look up Randy Spears, he did a video for Fight the New Drug where he talks about, I think he became a Christian and repented of his lifestyle. That dude is broken. That dude is broken, you know, but he found freedom from the lifestyle and redemption and repentance. And I don't know what the dude does right now, but that's the only way out of these sinful lifestyles. And I think the manosphere particularly, you know, there was an off ramp into Christianity that happened somewhere around 2021 and 2022. A lot of guys didn't take that off ramp. Then Andrew Tate comes in in 2022 and take eats everybody's lunch, and there's not a whole lot left. And some guys are still trying to hack down that road. And you're absolutely right. It's gotten so corny. It's gotten so corny. Like, bro, pack it in. You know, what, what, what age are we living in? What, what time is it? Like, no, stop. But they got to keep doing it because what else are they going to do?

Ali D [02:02:07]:

Well, this is why, I mean, if you are a man, you should probably have a backup plan to content creation and social media. You should probably have a stem degree. Ladies, if you're going to be in content creation, you might want to, may want to be married to a man who can provide for you because that, that is not always a stable career. I mean, shoot, there's been some months I've made like $50 online, but I don't care because I'm trying to have kids right now. Right. But if that was my primary income, I would be having to do some major cringe stuff. And I'm so blessed that I do not have to even, even deal with that. I am very blessed to be married to who I'm married to. Like, makes me kind of nervous even thinking about it.

Will Spencer [02:02:51]:

Yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Like, if you're, if you're gambling your entire future as a man or woman on, on a YouTube on, on the algorithm and they flip the algorithm up on you like that. People experience that stress all the time. Like, yeah, you should be cultivating real world skills. Maybe, like, maybe social media and contains some skills that are applicable elsewhere, you know, and that's something that's important to me. Like, I'm a men's counselor by trade. I love doing that. I apply some of those same skills that I bring to counseling, to my podcast conversations. It's just about having a conversation and seeking truth. Different, different forms. But, like, I'm so grateful that I have that and that I don't have to be just like, I am a YouTube personality and I carry that with me everywhere I go. Forget it. Forget it. So, so now that you're heading into having your second kid and just a couple more questions, if that's okay. Well, what does the future, what does the future look like, for Alodi, the content creator, the platform, like, is that going to shift, or is it just going to be something that. Yeah, I kind of do it on the side, but I'm. I've got these other things that are much more interesting to me.

Ali D [02:03:56]:

Well, I want to be totally honest with y'all. If I was more disciplined, I could do both. But I. I'm type B. Okay. I'm type B. I'm very blessed to be married to type A. So he. He helps me out, you know, like, steers me. He's like, you're getting distracted. Come back over here. I'm like, oh, okay, true. You know, I actually kind of have a. A theory. You've probably seen Finding Nemo. I have a theory that Dory actually didn't have a memory problem, that she was just pregnant the whole time. Right. But, yes, the stuff is just going to fall to the wayside a lot because I have other things to be occupied with. And again, I do want to stress, like, if I had more structure, if that was my personality type or, like, a. A skill that I've honed, I would be able to balance it both. But then, you know, I'm going to be confronted with other things. Like, I have to seriously consider if we're going to homeschool. And so if I'm gonna homeschool my kids, how am I gonna find the time to be a content creator? Right now, there's some women who do it, but they kind of make the homeschooling aspect, like, a part of their content, and they weave it in there. But I don't want to make my family a pretty product either. So I'm kind of stuck. If I want to care about this stuff, I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place of what do I want to prioritize? And at the end of the day, I'm just always going to pick my family, and that's okay. And I'm very blessed that I can have the option to just pick my family and make that work. And, you know, I'll. I'll probably pick content creation back up, the older and more independent that my children get, you know, but there's some things I can do. I can, you know, do an occasional vlog, do an occasional YouTube video. Tweeting is super easy. You can Tweet in your PJs if you want to. Instagram, I'm good. I don't really need to be dealing with that. Something strange has happened, I think, with AI, Instagram is terrible. X Has gotten pretty terrible. Substack is a fun place. I can talk to anybody who wants to get started on substack. I think it's wonderful.

Will Spencer [02:06:03]:

Me. Help me understand substack.

Ali D [02:06:06]:

Oh, yeah, it's a. It's a good time over there. So I just kind of do what works for my family. I mean, even this conversation, you know, I have to family plan and say, hey, do. Do I have the time to do this? This is how long I'm going to be. And, you know, my husband will be like, yeah, we have time for that. He'd be like, no, we don't have time for that. And I'm like, okay. You know, it's. It's. It's fine. Because I actually have met women in real life who are trying to do it all with social media, entrepreneurship, and having a lot of small children. I think it stretches them too thin. You can't. You can't do it all. Which is what's so wonderful about having the church community that I have. I don't have any social pressure from my girlfriends at all to do more, you know, which is sad because I've seen some women have the opposite thing where they're expected to show up. And, you know, and I. I had these questions for myself, too. My YouTube channel is kind of small. I don't. I can't tell because I've been out of the game for so long.

Will Spencer [02:07:07]:

But 100,000 is pretty good. You got the. You got the plaque back there. I see that.

Ali D [02:07:12]:

Oh, yeah, Yeah. I have 180,000. And I hope at some point when my children are older that I can do better and maybe get to, like, 200,000 or something like that. But I. I'm trying to think. Sorry. I have pregnancy brain, so I'm a little bit scattered. Oh, I had that question for myself. I'm like, well, you know what's gonna happen if I can't do this thing anymore? Because it is a. A love and a passion of mine. Don't get me wrong. I mean, I started a YouTube channel because I couldn't sleep because I had so many ideas, and I love editing videos, and I. I just came to terms with it. But I was looking at women like Candace Owens, and I'm like, well, she's got three kids. Like, well, how come she can do all of that and be skinny and have all these babies and be married to a handsome man, and hopefully this doesn't get me doxed or canceled. Candace, I love you. Please don't do this to me. But her Husband's net worth is 100 million, you know, and she. She's got, like, helps. Well, she's got some good structure, too, probably. I don't think it takes her that long to, you know, put a video together. She's probably got staff, and she's got a good schedule. But at the same time, you know, and I'm not going to question Candace as a mother. I'm just questioning, like, conservative women who you work a lot, because I don't know, Candace could be working five or ten hours a week. I have no clue. You know, maybe she's really making it work. But for the women that are taking on a lot, what's the quality of their relationships with their children, you know, and those are the people that you have to face when you log off. And is it going to be worth it to say, like, oh, well, mommy was gone 20 to 40 hours a week this week. I hope it's okay that that aspect of it and the other aspect of it, too, is like, making your family a product. I don't think. I think it's very unwise to do that with your. Your husband and then also to do it with your kids to a degree. That's why I have some of the privacy that I have set up when it comes to my content. And I actually have found that I've become way more private since becoming a mom. But when you're making your kids a part of a product, are they going to reflect fondly on that when they're older? Because you could have the kind of kid who hates social media and never wants to be on it, but you can't undo what you post.

Will Spencer [02:09:33]:

That's right.

Ali D [02:09:34]:

Right. And so, you know, I'm just not trying to put myself in that position. So basically, you're asking, like, what's going to happen with my platform? I'll get to it when I get to it. It's kind of what I think is going to happen.

Will Spencer [02:09:44]:

That's a fantastic answer. Especially because being a content creator might be cringe in the next generation. Who knows, right? Super cool. Right now it's like, oh, my gosh, my mom was a content creator. Those guys are so weird.

Ali D [02:09:55]:

Yeah, I know, I know. They're going to have all these videos to watch. I'm like, mom, you were weird in your 20s. I'm like, Listen, it was a culture war. You had to be there. There was a pandemic. There was an election. There was this man with dementia that was elected. Like, we had to fight. And I. I only had My camera to fight.

Will Spencer [02:10:13]:

Hey, we all just had to do what we had to do to get by. Okay.

Ali D [02:10:16]:

Yeah.

Will Spencer [02:10:17]:

Uphill both ways in the snow. Well, Ali, this has been a wonderful conversation. I've. I've greatly enjoyed it. I. I really appreciate you taking a couple hours away from your family, and thanks to your husband as well for making this possible. I've really enjoyed getting to know you and chatting with you about all the stuff. I think we hit all the topics and. And I'm just. I'm so grateful for what you do. And I think if we could just close on, just offer a word of hope to. To a lot of the socially awkward girlies, a lot of the. The men, some of the women, potentially men also, that are looking and seeing, you know, maybe in our conversation, something that they'd like to pursue. Just offer a word of hope to them because I believe that it's possible. I believe that it is possible to have these blessings. You may have to give up something to get it. You're talking about very naturally having to dial down your content production because there's other. There's something more important to focus on. I believe people can have that as well if they make the right sacrifices. But just speak a little bit to that and then we'll. We'll wrap up for the day.

Ali D [02:11:14]:

Yes. I clicked on a tab to go to a reference note, but your intro started playing. Did the audio come through and interrupt what you said?

Will Spencer [02:11:22]:

No.

Ali D [02:11:23]:

Oh, okay. Well, wonderful. So I guess we can just get going on it then. Wow, have I been blessed. So what I want to. To say to people who are wanting a family and just don't know how to approach it or they're really struggling with modern dating. I really think that we need to entertain the concept of a gap year for dating, and I think you need to get off social media and go and get a boyfriend or a girlfriend and don't come back until you have one. One. And, you know, because this stuff is not. It's not helping anybody. It's giving you really weird ideas. Everyone is confused. The men are confused. The women are confused. And you know what? If you just got rid of all these extra voices from social media, you would only have the voice of God. If you're religious, which I would hope that you would pursue a relationship with God. You would only have your voice and the voice of your friends and family, which. These are the people. People that are invested in your real world lives. Like, nobody online is super invested in the outcomes of your life. So if you just get off social media for a year, start interacting with the opposite sex, start, you know, seeing, like, what works and what doesn't work. And I'm telling you, I think if people apply themselves, you know, in a year's time, you could walk away def. Certainly with a boyfriend or a girlfriend, but you can definitely walk away in some instances with a fiance or a husband or a wife. But a lot of people are not willing to do that. And if you look at people who sometimes are on social media, like content creators, there's a good number of us who, when we got into relationships with our loved ones, whether it's like our husbands or our wives, we weren't even on social media like that. Right? Like, I wasn't on social media like that until I was a content creator. And I had already been seeing my now husband, you know, in that time period. And I just think that that is what is not getting addressed. And there's a lot of information out there to show you that social media is harmful. And I get that it sounds hypocritical because I'm a content creator, but you can read Jonathan Haidt's work. It's called the Anxious Generation, because presumably people who are into dating and childbearing, and in those years, they're going to be Gen Z or they're going to be millennials. And the stuff that you're seeing on these screens is impacting you guys significantly. And it's one of the biggest problems of our generation in our era. So if you want to read his book called the Anxious Generation, it's going to give you some insights and to just reflect on how unnatural it is. Some of the things that we had to go through. We had to go through this pandemic and socialize with the opposite sex through technology. That's never happened before, you know, so it's no wonder you can't, you know, go. Go on a date. And some of the ideas that you're going to be getting from these people online, they're not always good ones. Okay. They really aren't. So that is what I would say is, like, just get offline for a year. Go and get a boyfriend or girlfriend or fiance or husband, and then come back. There you go.

Will Spencer [02:14:29]:

Thank you for that. I kept my entire courting process a secret. I wasn't able to disappear from social media, but I didn't. I didn't put it out there. This was something that was very private for me. And I think getting off of social media and people pursuing that with all sincerity and seriousness Is is the way to earn those blessings.

Ali D [02:14:45]:

Mm, I agree.

Will Spencer [02:14:46]:

Thank you. Well, where would you like to people to send people to find out more about you and what you do?

Ali D [02:14:52]:

I hate this question because I'm like that content creator that doesn't want to be found. But you can find me. I mean, obviously it's not that serious because I'm on here, right? You can find me at real Femme Sapien on all social media platforms. And my blog on Substack is called Femmlosophy, so you can check that out. Femlosophy is where I do more of my written long form content. And again, I'm not consistent with my posting either. But if you're wanting like actual dating advice for women, that is probably the best place to be because it's super hard to be under misunderstood with a long form writing with videos, you know, you're talking on the fly and you can make some verbal mistakes there. So yeah, if you're struggling, you know, have hope. And there's a lot of women that are in your position too. I. I realize that nobody has empathy for women who struggle with dating, and some of you ladies are struggling because you're bringing on yourselves. However, I have empathy for the innocents who have been, you know, casualties in this war between the sexes that feminism has stoked. Like, I, I see your struggle. I'm here for you. You can check out advice over on my blog.

Will Spencer [02:16:04]:

Wonderful. We'll send everyone that way and I'll talk to you about Substack. So I'm still trying to understand it. So thank you.

Ali D [02:16:10]:

Yeah, sounds good.

Will Spencer [02:16:11]:

All right, wonderful. Thank you so much, Ali. Have a wonderful day.

Ali D [02:16:14]:

Thanks, you too.