0:00how is he going to rule over other families if his his own family is a mess

0:06I think that's a good good principle unfortunately in America we don't seem to care about that anymore it's kind of G out the window uh most right you know

0:14most politicians their families are absolute disasters which maybe explains

0:28things my guest this week is Zach Garris author of masculine Christianity and

0:34honor thy fathers out now from new Christendom press Zach's work showcases the reformed Faith's traditional stance

0:41on feminism or rather what would have been their stance if feminism existed back then reformers and Puritans like

0:48Luther Calvin KNX and others were Crystal Clear women shouldn't teach or

0:53have authority over men period they can lead other women and children just not

0:59men tough pill to swallow you bet but God's word is clear and following it

1:04benefits everyone the fifth commandment after all comes with a promise Zach's

1:09book title stems from this idea and in his book he shows how honoring male Authority aligns with the fifth

1:16commandment as explained in the Westminster Confession of faith and elsewhere as Zach boldly writes in the

1:22very first sentence of his new book quote feminism has fallen on Hard Times of late but it has not fallen on hard

1:29enough times Amen to that and let's hope Zach's book hastens feminism's decline

1:34inside and outside the church if you enjoy this podcast thank you please like this video share it and subscribe and

1:41when you do click the Bell icon to be notified when I release new content and don't forget to leave a comment down

1:48below letting us know what you thought you can also support the channel through a paid substack subscription or click

1:54buy me a coffee and both those links are in the show notes and please welcome this week's guests on the will Spen

2:00podcast the author of honor thy fathers Zack Garis Zack welcome back to the podcast

2:07thanks for having me I have here the Zach Aris collection

2:13masculine Christianity and honor thy fathers congratulations on on your second book I I like to call honor thy

2:20fathers the uh the reformer strike back so congratulations on on this thanks

2:26yeah it's a uh kind of complimentary book I think to masculine Christianity

2:32so very much so very in fact I remember when I had you on to talk about masculine Christianity maybe a year year

2:39and a half ago something like that it it and having read on thy fathers now it feels very much like a couple missing

2:47chapters in a way from masculine Christianity not that the book felt incomplete but that it the two fit

2:52together really well almost as if they could be the same volume which is which is a great way to to write a couple

2:57books yeah I think so I mean that they're obviously different angles uh they could

3:04all go in the same book there's some overlap but uh honor th fathers is more of a historical angle so uh for people

3:11who are interested in that I think it's uh it's useful and then also it does get a little more into guess you could say

3:17like the narrow complementarianism in the particular in the reformed world so

3:23um I mean there's some of that in masculine Christianity but yeah a little bit uh little bit different book

3:30yeah it's it's a it's definitely a different posture on the same on the same sets of issues so I think I

3:35remember masculine Christianity being very heavily heavy on exog Jesus like and the and the posture of these verses

3:42ver uh in contrast to what the feminists say about them and then it's let's go and do a historical survey of what our

3:49reformed forefathers used to say about these verses in contrast to more of like the modern approach that the church is

3:56taking um to egalitarianism complementarianism and femin ISM

4:01really yeah absolutely so when you sat down to write

4:07honor thy fathers like did you did you have this book sort of like was it kind of percolating in your mind for a while

4:13after masculine Christianity what was the Genesis of this book pun alloud yeah well actually um I was

4:21initially asked to write an essay on um

4:26basically the reformers on male rule um headship and so that got that got things

4:32started and then that actually the guys who asked me to do that that end up not going anywhere and so I had this essay

4:38sitting around and um I was like what am I going to do with this it's it seemed too long you know to post on the

4:45internet um yeah so then you know it's just kind of over time I started adding to it and uh you know I had more books I

4:53had Acquired and was looking through things and I think you know it's always kind of in the back of my mind because the the essay was just sitting there and

5:00I hadn't done anything with it um so I eventually just kept adding to it and refining it and and then I was like well

5:09I think this could actually make a whole book uh it be a little bit shorter but um I think I was able

5:16to um you know add enough that uh it made for a book and so that's that

5:22that's what came to be honor of th fathers I mean it's not it's not super short but it's actually maybe the kind of length of book uh people like to read

5:29you know where it's 100 to 150 Pages M Christianity was like 300 um I

5:36tend to be not necessarily long- winded but uh it's it's easy on like a sub

5:41subject like this to to write more so um

5:46yeah that's why I think this book is somewhat useful is it for for people where it's a it is a different angle

5:51it's not the same book as M and Christian it has some of the same themes but um it's it's in some sense it's

5:57maybe a little more accessible people might actually start start with this book and then say Hey Oh I want to I

6:02actually want to read masculine Christianity and dive a little more into the scripture passages so uh

6:09yeah so um and I know that this came out on New Christendom press which is I mean

6:14it's a beautiful it's a beautiful book people listening can't really see it but you should definitely check it out lovely designed and cover and and I

6:20think um I think one of the things that it captures is this Spirit of hey these

6:26questions that we're struggling with in the church right now they've been answered this is like this is not new it

6:32didn't just spring up out of the ground like re the reformers dealt with this hundreds of years ago so maybe you can

6:38start maybe you can offer some examples of some of the reformers that you surveyed some of the things they had to say about some of these egalitarian and

6:45feminist kind of questions because when I saw that um recovering the anti-feminist Theology of the reformers

6:50as the subtitle I'm like let's go so I I appreciate that you dove into that to uh to to uh to find some of those those

6:58things that I think people today needed to hear yeah I mean the the subtitle is a little bit anachronistic right I mean

7:05uh uh feminism was not a term back then and uh and the move I mean that they

7:10were around before the movement uh was around but I mean the thing is is you you've always had kind of elements of

7:17feminism in the world I mean um you've had Rebellion against male uh

7:24Rule and God's design in marriage and and throughout Society and so you know

7:30none of that's none of that's new but I think um you know part of the reason I

7:36titled it uh the anti-feminist Theology of the reformers is is their theology

7:42they had a Theology of uh men and women and male headship and they they clearly

7:48opposed what we would today call feminism and so so so their writings are

7:54still very applicable to our day and U though were

8:00writing you know this side of feminism and so there's some things we might add

8:06um you know particular to the historical context um their writings are still you

8:13know extremely helpful and uh and especially practically right to

8:19because they're they're getting into the Bible and uh and and doing theology so

8:26yeah I mean you you mentioned examples uh I mean you have you have like William gu for

8:33example he wrote a book um of domestical Duties gu was a member of the

8:39Westminster assembly that drafted the U Westminster Confession and

8:45catechisms and um he he his book uh of domestical Duties is like a very

8:52practical work on um the home I mean it's it's not just on male headship I

8:58mean it gets in everything parenting and so it's got It's got instructions for husbands for wives um and and other

9:06aspects of of the home so it's a very good book it's very popular I think it was 1622 uh when it came out um and you

9:14can find it online today I mean it's it's a little older English um Reformation Heritage has a uh has

9:21republished it as like a more modern modern English but they they did they

9:26did more than just some spelling Corrections so I mean I I don't love that but overall it's good they they don't change the the wording too much um

9:35but if you if you want to quote it or something obviously you can just go look up the original online because it's free

9:41um but anyway so I mean gu even gets into there like you know when he's

9:47dealing with husbands and wives I mean he he's definitely getting into the details of what headship should look like and and the marital

9:54relationship um and so I mean he's dealing with situations where like you know he mentions women who don't obey

10:02their husbands you know don't submit and don't follow their lead and so I mean he

10:07he's got he's got things to say that are uh you know probably somewhat offensive to to some people but uh that's at least

10:13like kind of one example in marriage um and then you would have um there's other

10:20quotes in there I mean there's just so people know listeners know the first three chapters of of my book are um male

10:28rule in the home church and then the Commonwealth so I get into all of those and then I'm I'm looking at the reformed

10:35on um those those different um spheres and

10:40so I mean there there's not as much on the church in one sense because they weren't dealing with like this push for

10:45women pastors um like like we have today but but they still have they still have

10:51teachings that they applied they applied like 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 14:

10:5634-35 and other passages to to uh prohibit women from uh preaching and and

11:03and leadership in the church so um yeah I mean there's there's all sorts of stuff in here we can discuss but uh

11:09maybe that's enough for for now yeah just to go back to something you said about it uh they you know the

11:17reformers weren't talking about feminism that wasn't really part of their world but they were um observing some of the

11:24same Trends some of the same behaviors some of the same sins that have now

11:29taken shape in a sociopolitical in even the theological

11:35kind of posture so it wasn't that they would have described themselves as feminists or anti-feminists they didn't

11:40know what that was right but they they had made the same observations that many people are doing today and they had

11:47spoken into these particular issues in their in their writings um and so we can

11:52I guess we can go to the past to find what our forefathers honor th fathers would have said about some of the same

11:58same things that we're facing today and apply it to our modern challenges it feels like that's kind of the spirit of

12:04the book yeah absolutely I mean the the goal

12:09or like you said the spirit of the book it's it's uh taking these the teachings and principles of the older reformed

12:16theologians just just to be clear it's the 16th and 17th century reformers is what I I focus on because that would be

12:23the the ACT actual reformers like like Calvin I I mean I mentioned Luther a

12:28little bit but it's mostly Calvin Calvin and um Bullinger and

12:34um um I there's others again too there's there's more probably of the the post

12:41Reformation uh reformers uh reformed Orthodox they call them

12:46um that are a little bit later that that's like gu and um ver miggle and others like that so

12:54there's uh sorry ver migle is actually earlier he's a reformer um so

12:59um VES that's that's another guy uh he's Dutch I was wondering how to say I was

13:05gonna I was going to say his name but I don't know how to say think I put in there uh I think it even has like a f

13:10sound technically it's like fous f yeah fuches so yeah that's a hard one uh giz

13:16berus is his first name so he's a a Dutch guy but uh there's actually not a

13:22lot uh a lot of his stuff is not translated so he's somewhat hard to access uh in English but uh

13:30yeah I I think it's just you know it's part of the advantage of going and reading those older theologians is the

13:37fact that they're they're they don't have the pressure that we do you know today I mean where we feel like we have

13:42to qualify everything or or pastors today are afraid to almost even read

13:48certain portions of scripture because they're they're very uh you know patriarchal or whatever I mean male they

13:54teach male headship and so um you know they just didn't

14:00really fear speaking on those things back back in the day I mean that's not to say we shouldn't be sensitive you

14:05know to our context and and hearers but um I I just think it's helpful to go

14:11read these older guys and realize you know they pretty much all said the same thing uh with some variation and uh if

14:19that's the case then that's a pretty good argument that um they were right I mean if you're if you're

14:26reformed right if you if you like them on you like the reformed the on justification and um you know everything

14:33else theologically then then we should we should care what they thought about um male headship and the

14:40like now were you aware going in of what some of the reformers had said or was it

14:46kind of like a research project like did you know where to start or was it your own kind of Journey to go through these

14:51men's writings to find out what they had said um about these issues I mean I had a pretty good idea from things I had

14:58seen that they were were all going to at least hold what we would consider like traditional teaching regarding male rule

15:05uh certainly in the home and church and I did I guess I didn't know exactly what they would all say about the

15:10Commonwealth I mean I had seen uh some differences between Calvin and Knox that I had even mentioned I

15:17think in masculine Christianity so I think probably what happened is I had a good idea but as I was researching these

15:23book this book uh you know is kind of refining things and and in in you know

15:30understanding even the different nuances especially on the point between Calvin and and and Knox and I found other guys

15:36who spoke on that question such as basa and Binger um so yeah I mean and even

15:44that I mean I'll even say now I mean the book is not it's not exhaustive I mean there's there's lots of theologians I

15:50don't mention and you could probably find even more although I think one of the challenges is is trying to find I

15:58mean the the reformed the older reformed theologians wrote a lot so um mhm you

16:04know because they didn't do a lot of books directly on the subject it wasn't you know major controversy at the time

16:11um and so sometimes it's hard to find the quotes you have to read through a fair amount or skim or know what you're

16:18you know looking for and um so so like I said there is more you could find out

16:24there I'm sure but uh I tried to I try to get at least as much as I could in there I meane especially I'm hitting

16:29kind of the the big names like Calvin um and uh and gu because he has that of

16:36domestical Duties John Knox I mean he's got he's got the whole book on uh the trumpet blast against the Monstrous

16:42regimen of women so I had to had to get that one in there um and then I I do get

16:49into the reformed uh confessions a little bit where I I I mentioned the heidleberg cism on the fifth commandment

16:54but then more so the Westminster larger catechism because it has more questions on the fifth commandment has like 10 of

17:01them I think and so um some of that's like even even looking at

17:07the um the fifth commands honor your father and mother and so so broadly they

17:12understood that to to apply to all authority structures so that would include marriage now it doesn't always

17:18spell that out explicitly in like the Westminster large of catechism but if you go look at the language of um that

17:26it uses for the fifth commandment and then you also look at the versus its sighting so the proof text and it's it's

17:32clear that they include marriage uh in there um you know they'll

17:37cite like parts of uh first Peter um 3 and um I know they at least cite that

17:45one um but maybe Ephesians 5 as well and so so you can see that when they're

17:50citing these texts and then they're using this language that that I mean I mean part of the problem is they're

17:56they're they're speaking of authority structure they're they're speaking of authority structures in general like

18:02what should the superior Authority do and what should the inferior Authority do um and and the duties and sins um and

18:11so that's why it it's language that would be used both for like for superiors would be used for husband but

18:17also like the civil magistrate and and um parents even you know with with

18:22children so so so but but they did include it in there and you can even see that in like some exposition positions

18:29of the larger catechism um which I I mentioned some of them in there um that that's just how

18:36they that that's how they understood the fifth commandment and so so that that's just a way I think that's maybe an important thing to mention is that's

18:42that's something we don't often think about today I mean unfortunately the church today doesn't even uh always

18:48teach the The Ten Commandments uh but that was that was always a big deal back uh back in the day you you would learn

18:54the Ten Commandments The Lord's Prayer and even catechisms that was that was common as they would exposit these

18:59things they would go through the Ten Commandments and ask questions how do we understand this what does this mean each

19:05commandment and then they would do the same with like the the different um lines of the Lord's Prayer and so when

19:11you do that they actually had a whole theology under you know of Christian ethics I mean so so that's that's what

19:17this would fall on was Christian ethics but um you know you can you can see how they under that that at least that's the

19:23context for how they were teaching on marriage uh in male headship

19:29so they were using they were using the fifth commandment as a way to explain the concept of male headship and

19:35authority and submission in the context of the home specifically uh yeah yes yeah so that

19:42that's that's their that's their primary uh Target there would be would be the home um now they would when you read the

19:50reformers and I have quotes in the book about this but they they saw the home as

19:56kind of the the the foundation for then the the other uh spheres of church and

20:04state or Commonwealth as they would often call it so um the language like William Perkins

20:13um I know he used it and maybe gu as well where they said um that they

20:18referred to the family as the the Seminary of the church and the the family as the Seminary of the

20:25Commonwealth and so they the the reason is is they I mean that's like the language of the of seed is what it's

20:31getting at and so they're they're seeing you know the family is like the models

20:36the seed of the the church and so I mean you actually see this even in scripture

20:42they're they're not just making this up um you you go to like 1 Timothy 3 and you've got Paul uh he he's speaking of

20:51of Elders in the church and and one of the requirements is he says the that the Elder must manage his household well

20:56that's uh I believe first verse four 4 and 5 and 1 Timothy 3 and so he he's and

21:02he says you know if a man doesn't know how to manage his household how will he care for the church and so you have that

21:09that very requirement is is that the home is a model for the church and so

21:15the church is made up of households it's made up of different families um the same is true of the Commonwealth and

21:22so I mean I think this is just the principle is you need to be able to manage your home well and those who do

21:28that well and then are called to uh leadership rule in the church or

21:34teaching in particular would be like a pastor or teaching Elder um you know they those men would be called to the

21:41eldership they have to be confirmed by the church of course so uh but but you have that very practice there um and I

21:49think the same would apply to the the the Civil realm to the Commonwealth um now we don't the Bible

21:56doesn't make those demands but I think a reasonable requirement as we look at a u

22:02civil magistrate he's going to be managing you know caring for this uh citizens uh I mean how is he going to

22:10rule over other families if his his own family is a mess I think that's a good

22:17good principle unfortunately in America we don't seem to care about that anymore it's kind of G out the window uh most

22:22right you know most politicians their families are absolute disasters uh so mhm um

22:29which maybe explains things with politics but um yeah I I

22:35don't so to just to bring it back is is that's that's the idea is the the the family is there in the Westminster

22:41larger catechism under the fifth commandment and they're reasoning their way their way from the family to these

22:48other spheres and they they definitely see a con a connection

22:53there I think that does probably explain why we're at where we're at is that this

22:58a general devaluing of the family for the past I mean 60 years you know

23:03generously 100 or more if we want to get really into it and that that process has under undermined male rule everywhere

23:12else and you can go back and again we're talking about an a context of modern feminism you go back to the 1960s you

23:17see the devaluation in fact actually just as a bit of an aside in uh my my church signal group with all the guys

23:24we're talking about the baron stain Bears um now okay I'm old enough to remember when they were the baron Steen

23:30bears but that's a whole other conversation um but about how th those children's books which I read as a

23:35little kid were actually pretty feminists with the kind of the bumbling dad and the mom kind of in charge and I

23:42of course I was a little kid I wasn't paying attention to that but that shows how far back this idea goes you can go

23:47into All In The Family the subversion of the male rule dad is a loudmouth bigot Etc so you see these these themes that

23:54we're all kind of doing uh in culture that we're participating in are kind of immersed in to undermine male rule in

24:00the home and that has had cascading effects of undermining male rule uh in

24:06the church and then in the state perhaps at the same time and so uh so the reformers would have looked at it and

24:12said the male rule in the home as established in the fifth commandment is how is the is the central ground and the

24:18pillar of male rule everywhere else in society proceeding from the home

24:25outwards yeah I mean I I I think so and when when the

24:30home therefore collapses uh I mean this this is a problem it's going to affect

24:37uh everywhere else and so I think I I mean look there is an interconnectedness right obviously the church helps yeah um

24:45support families right because they they're they're overseeing them the the elders they're they're preaching to

24:51families to fulfill their duties and I would say that the state is also um

24:57support supposed to support families I think they they don't always do a good job in our culture right so uh but some

25:04of that would be like divorce law the opposite yeah yeah right like no fall divorce I mean actually I would argue

25:09undermines um well male headship um because the wife could say well I don't

25:15want to submit to my husband I'm just going to divorce him and the state there's no punishment there's no I mean I pointed this out in masculine

25:21Christianity um you know divorce is uh or marriage is a involves it's a

25:27Christians We Believe it's a a covenant I I know the Roman Catholics call it a Sacrament I I don't agree with that it

25:34is a covenant uh but but uh don't worry they're not here they're not here right now yeah I mean there could be some listening I don't know U but so um uh

25:42yeah you know we do believe it's it's a covenant um but but legally it's going to have the you know it serves as a

25:49contract uh but so basically the way at least I can just speak on US law is in

25:55the states differ in some regard but they they have uh default laws uh

26:00default rules for the contract and so you get married you go sign the marit uh

26:05marriage license and uh I mean you can you can modify it with a you can modify

26:11the marriage contract with a prenuptual agreement I mean that's that's allowed there's sometimes limitations on it but

26:16you can do that but the the problem is is the default contract um is no fault

26:22divorce in most States now if all states I think have it um yeah New York was like the last one ironically it was New

26:28York that was the last one to change it uh which wasn't that long ago actually uh maybe last 20 years um so you know

26:35we're it used to be required that you would show fault to get a divorce and now um you you don't have to do that I

26:42mean some states make you wait a little bit longer if you don't uh if if it's

26:47not consensual it's not agreed by both parties um but but the point being is is

26:54unfortunately the default uh rules are now either party can unilaterally

26:59unilaterally file for divorce and there's no uh punishment there's no uh even though they might have breached the

27:06contract they might have you know cheated on their spouse or something um or just they're getting out of the

27:11marriage and the other party doesn't want to I mean that that seems like a breach of contract um but there's no

27:17penalties it's just you know judges tend to I mean there's been some problems here but judges tend to at least the

27:23trend now is they just they don't want to hear anything they just split things 50/50 children you know uh parenting

27:29time and then also uh um uh finances and the like so uh that's kind of where we

27:36we've TR we're training in the United States but but the problem is is that uh doesn't support strong families right we

27:43we don't have laws in place to actually keep families together we don't have I mean we have more and more laws that

27:49don't protect children I mean so all that's bad I mean some of the you know transgender laws um so so there's all

27:56sorts of things there um and and and all that is to say those

28:01three spheres of Family Church State they they are all interconnected and and the church and

28:08the state are supposed to be supporting the family and and supporting just

28:14having strong families and unfortunately I I I think we could argue

28:19I mean I've just argued that the state doesn't do a very good job of supporting families but I think we could also point out a lot a lot of ways that the the

28:27church is also not supporting strong families sometimes they so I mean I've seen examples where pastors sessions

28:34Church leadership is allowing um one of the parties to divorce and then they

28:39don't they don't penalize them they don't they don't uh discipline them or um par them from the supper

28:45excommunicate them eventually is what they should do um if they don't repent and instead they'll just allow divorce I

28:50mean I've SE I've seen this um and and you probably heard of uh situations like this will and so uh I mean this is a

28:57problem is um you know when the state's not doing its job that's bad enough but the church

29:04needs to stand on the scriptures and and they shouldn't just be allowing

29:10um a a party to divorce a Christian to divorce uh uh their spouse or or fellow

29:16Christian spouse is often the case um when there's no biblical grounds right

29:22there should be um it should be justified me the traditional Protestant position I realize some people disagree

29:28with this but the traditional Protestant position which is found in the Westminster standards is uh it has to be adultery or abandonment and so anyway

29:37all it is to say I mean and this is just in a divorce issue there's also other things the church isn't always preaching

29:43um male headship it's not always preaching pastors aren't always preaching for wives to submit to their

29:49husbands and so they're almost like you know they they may they may give lip service to male headship but then

29:55they're essentially encouraging egalitarian practice which is contrary to God's design and then of course so

30:02what you end up with is uh that that's that causes problems um and so so in

30:07that way the church and often many churches Unfortunately today are just straight up egalitarian and and teaching

30:13egalitarianism so uh all of that undermines the family and so the family is kind of left

30:20often on it on its own I mean there's some good churches doing a good job here but the family's often left like it's

30:26just up to husband and wife and hopefully they do a good job and if they don't Things Fall Apart and then the church might not might or might not help

30:33them and the state probably isn't going to help them at all um so all that is to say is that the the the three spheres

30:40should be working together the family is foundational uh but we we basically have

30:46the disintegration of the family I mean there's lots of people that talk about this right that that the family's kind of Fallen apart we the American Family

30:53at least we could say is rather weak and but that then that end up affecting church and state so it's kind of this

31:01um uh you know it's reciprocal in the sense that okay the the state and the

31:06church harm the family the family breaks down but then that ends up leading to a

31:12weaker church and a weaker State um because those people go into politics or church leadership or or there's a lack

31:19of church leadership right you know uh suitable candidates so so anyway uh that was kind of a long answer but all of

31:25that kind of goes uh hand in hand yeah the pieces all fit together no that

31:32answer is great I mean I think a lot of people listening can see these things reflected in their own lives you can see

31:38that the male rule in the home the family the value of the family and marriage itself and even you know uh

31:44even human life and abortion has been undermined and what we have now is uh

31:50which many men that I know have been experiencing is uh they have the divorce industry the meat grinder that just you

31:58know grinds men down that enables women to claim without justification things like abuse and to deprive dads of their

32:05children that's a whole big thing um I know that uh David Edington talks about um you know the abusive wife it's a big

32:12that's a big uh he's having a lot of a lot of men flocking to him who have been sharing their stories of the ways that

32:18they've been actually impacted by the way that the uh family court system has been weaponized against men and I think

32:25the frustrating thing is like all of those things can be true and they're terrible for what they are but that the

32:31church seems to turn a blind eye to all of it you know I I I know a man he was

32:37married for 20 years had I think three uh three sons four Sons with his wife

32:42they were married and she decided that she was just going to peace out of the faith she's done with this whole Christianity thing you know dropped a

32:49dropped a surprise divorce on her husband you know and instantly she gets

32:55half you know it actually ends up being closer to 60% % and you know his church didn't do anything about it and she just

33:01decided she's going to go to another church that's just going to be like oh yeah that's cool yeah sure you just destroyed your family you know for no

33:07reason for no reason at all because you decided you didn't want to submit to your husband anymore and how common this

33:13is and how the church is supposed to be the back stop for this it's supposed to be far more than that but I think men

33:18have a a right to expect that a patriarchal religion very obviously if you read scripture like Christianity

33:25would would speak up for them I mean obviously hold them accountable for sin don't give them cart blanch right to to

33:32sin themselves that's not what I mean but to say that like hey this is what the book says and you're a minister of

33:38the word what's going on and they just kind of like shrug their shoulders and like well you know and it it's

33:43frustrating for men who feel like their own churches should be standing up for them and simply aren't yeah well I I I'm

33:50frustrated by it and I'm I'm a minister myself but um I mean there are exceptions out there obviously there are

33:57good pastors are good churches um but yeah I think this is a huge

34:02problem and um I I mean some of this is unavoidable

34:08in the sense of we have different denominations we have a lot of independent churches and people could

34:16people can either be deceitful like they can just they could get excommunicated at their Church they can go to another church and just not mention it I mean

34:23that that's possible or or or more likely though the unfortunate thing is that more that that church just doesn't

34:29care you know they just they don't care that another church excommunicated them they don't even know like

34:34excommunication well we we never do that um oh my goodness right so I mean this happens unfortunately is there's so if

34:41we were to identify the problem it's it's the there's a lack of discipline in the church

34:47um and I mean this I mean discipline starts with the preaching of the word so

34:53you have to have faithful preaching um because the idea is right you're you're calling people to repentance on a

34:59regular basis to obedience to God and and so that that that should be that's kind of your like first line of defense

35:06but when people don't do that and then they they commit flagrant sins right the

35:11it's the public stuff or scandalous sins and then then they need to be censured they need to be uh rebuked you know by

35:20um I mean we have this in like Matthew 18 right you go if somebody sins against you your brother you go you go uh talk

35:25to him and rebuke him if he doesn't listen you go to two or you know bring two or three and then if he doesn't listen that you you go you take it to

35:32the church and so the church would be going to the session you go to your church leadership I mean Presbyterians we call the sessions the elders um but

35:40but whatever your church leadership is and they should they should be um you know to taking up you know

35:48discipline against the uh person I mean they could they could start with just talking to the person about it but when the person refuses then they they they

35:54can go through their courts that we have ch Church courts right people maybe don't people don't always realize this but Le at least like the Presbyterians

36:00is how we do things we have uh ecclesiastical courts and so we would we can do censes we we can charge the

36:07person with an offense um and um so so let's say you know could be like um um

36:15abandonment right they're divorcing their spouse we would say well that's you're abandoning your spouse you don't have warrant to do that uh assuming

36:22there's no warrant um and so um you know the church should be bringing

36:28discipline and and that would start with um rebuke and then it would move to U

36:35suspension from the sacraments right you you don't go to excommunication right away you're trying to be patient with people to repent yeah um but but

36:42eventually that that if they're um refusing to repent um contumacious is is

36:48the word uh that sometimes used uh contumacy they they refuse to repent they're hardened in their sin then you

36:54you know you excommunicate them um and that's just right we see that in the Bible I mean that the the this principle

37:01there um like 1 Corinthians 5 uh at least uh amongst other places so you

37:07deliver them to uh to Satan um I mean the hope is they repent but but that's actually part of the discipline process

37:13as you have to cast them out of the church and say your sin is unacceptable it's Unbecoming of a Christian you can't do it and remain a part of the church

37:20and so we visibly as part as the visible church we are we're you are no longer communicating with us communicate you're

37:27you're communicated um so all that is to say there should be discipline in the church

37:34and especially for things like unjustified divorce that would be called abandonment um I mean and this this

37:41isn't limited to to women right it's it would apply to men or women doing the same a man or woman doing the same thing

37:47um or you know committing adultery or whatever sin it is whatever flagrant sin there is taking place there should be

37:53discipline against it um it just seems though that there's I I mean I've seen this in some cases

38:00Ian it's a small sample size so I can't I can't extrapolate it everywhere but I I from talking to other people it does

38:06seem to be that this is primarily a problem with women because I I I do

38:12think it's more common if a if a man was to a Christian man is to just leaves his wife the church is going to you know

38:18more likely than not to lay down the hammer but when a woman does it right they can they can um I don't know they

38:27sometimes justify it or they have some basis is well uh you know she said that her

38:32husband was abusive okay well was this physical abuse uh did she call the

38:38police I mean when those things aren't aren't the case which you know that's usually not the case in when this is going on um I mean if the police are

38:46involved that that's a different story but but when we're just saying like spiritual abuse or this loose definition

38:51and then they kind of let it go right that's that seems to be the case is there's this practice where the the

38:56churches are just just they're like overlooking things because well the wife you know have gives some basis for um

39:06why she's doing what she's doing and and it's it's I mean a lot of times it's like emotionally U manipulative really I

39:12mean that the the pastors and Elders are being manipulated by women um so so this is really I mean

39:20messed up right I mean it shouldn't be working this way yeah the the the pastors and Elders should

39:25be uh OB Ive neutral Arbiters in these in these things and so it it it and it

39:31should be fair you know whether it's the husband or wife that's abandoning the spouse they should they should be put under discipline so I this seems to be

39:39but from what I understand talking to others as well it seems to be uh there there's this particular problem with

39:44women doing this Christian women um some of them maybe leave the faith but sometimes they just are just uh going to

39:50a different church or or whatever or they stay at the same church I mean kind of crazy and the pastors don't do anything um Elders don't do anything

39:58but so that raises the question though um you know what what what are we to make of churches that aren't

40:03disciplining people for flagrant sins like obvious sins right uh well I mean

40:09you look at the reformers and that the reform the reform tradition the Protestant tradition uh you know they

40:16ask well what are the marks of a church well the marks are um you know the the faithful preaching of the word and the

40:22the right administration of the sacraments and then sometimes you you hear the third one which is is uh the

40:28the proper Administration discipline but really the thing is is you know if you you don't even necessarily need to name

40:34that one because that falls under the sacraments right if we just say baptism and the uh sorry uh the preaching of the

40:40word the right preaching of the word the right administration of sacraments if you're rightly

40:45administering the sacraments then if someone's an open flagrant sin then you should not be administering the

40:51sacraments to them you should be suspending them and then eventually excommunicating them from the sacraments

40:57m the very language of EX communication right communion um the Lord's

41:02Supper so here's the really concerning part is if a church is not properly or rightly administering

41:10the sacraments then they are actually they're not meeting one of the two marks of the church which would mean that

41:17they're actually a false church and so that's uh I mean this is a serious problem I me you see this in like

41:24scripture uses the language of like synagogues of Satan um you know you have you have actual

41:30like false churches we we know there's false churches I mean uh Pro the Protestant consensus has been that that

41:36Rome is a false church because they distort the gospel and um you know their their idolatry uh with the mass um and

41:45because they it's because they don't rightly administer the sacraments so if we're going to say that about Rome is well they get the sa they get the

41:51sacraments so wrong that they're actually in the gospel they're a false Church um I mean what does that say

41:57about kind of modern evangelicalism I think you have a lot of false churches within um within evangelicalism today um

42:04I mean I'm not going to I I can't know in on an individual basis but I'm just saying like I think that's pretty obvious if we have churches that are

42:11either distorting the gospel or it doesn't have to be that they could be preaching justification by faith or something but but then they turn around

42:17and they're not doing any church discipline uh for flagrant sins then then according to the traditional

42:23reformed position reform I think we say traditional Protestant position they're actually a false Church

42:30yep that's right that's right like I I want to flip to the back of the book I mean you probably would uh would

42:36remember the quote better than faster than I would be able to find it but you make the point that you know what good

42:41is it to have um reformed all these different aspects of uh of of the church

42:47if we're not reforming our impact on culture right and and that seems to be the the most striking aspect of the book

42:54is like Okay so we've reformed our so ology and all of and that's and praise God and you know there is a particular

43:02blind spot that we have in our culture today and when I've when I've had these conversations with um with many women

43:09they will they will um say you know very rightly that you know there have been situations of uh of church abuse which I

43:16think would we could probably rightly and and and truly call abuse but I think the response that the church has had is

43:24rather than saying okay we're not going to do that anymore we're going to we're going to hold both to a standard they've

43:29just kind of said you know what we're going to do instead we're going to hold both men and women to a low standard or a no standard to make up for past

43:36excesses and that seems to be seems to have created a particular blind spot where okay long before I was born there

43:44was probably abuses happening in church there probably still are today but the existence of those abuses or those

43:50excesses does not itself justify overlooking excesses on the other side

43:57and that I think is is the unique aspect of Our Moment is that okay we have to make up for those other abuses by being

44:04blind to a completely different category of abuse and somehow these scales will even out and I just don't I mean I don't

44:10think that that that washes but that seems to be the posture that many churches has like well the Christian

44:16Church screwed up in all these other ways in the past so now we're just going to let everyone have kind of a freefor

44:21all but it's actually serving to make things worse yeah I mean that that makes no sense on really any level because

44:29because I mean if if if you're practicing Injustice now then on what

44:35basis could you even say prior Generations were were practicing Injustice or abuse you know practicing

44:42abuse so it's it that's just kind of crazy is uh I mean I would challenge the

44:48idea that there was widespread abuse um you know in marriage and the like you

44:55know prior to the feminist movement or something I I wouldn't agree with that but but like even if we were to grant

45:00that well then the solution would be um we should we should just seek to to

45:07follow God's word uh properly now and and and follow just practices so yeah

45:15this this idea of justifying Injustice because of past abuses is uh well it's actually just

45:22unjust so there's really no other way other way to put it so yeah it's just unjust in the opposite

45:29it's unjust in the opposite direction and that that seems to be the the whole thrust of wokeness just in general you

45:36know this this straw man is built of excesses and abuses in the past and so

45:42in order to write those excesses we allow them in the opposite direction and that's not that's not Justice at all but

45:48that seems to that seems to soothe you know not in any good way a particular

45:55longing perhaps for Revenge and I think that's the spirit that underlies a lot of this like and and I can understand

46:02not that it make not not to excuse it but I can understand how people in the secular world would think that way I can

46:09understand the Victor victim kind of cycle which might be one of the only things ever to come out of psychology

46:15that's any good is to understand the ways that Victors become the victims and that cycle goes around and around but

46:21within the Christian church that that seems to have been swallowed and digested um from from self- professing

46:28Christians is something that's it's something that's quite odd this idea that we have to you know welcome in the

46:34marginalized and give them power to then exert their own agenda and somehow that writes the scales of History um I I

46:41think that's anti-biblical there's an objective standard that we're all accountable to but it's something that

46:47has flowed in probably through the very same feminist doors um that you

46:52articulate opened opened in this book and probably through theological liberalism as well yeah I mean even when

46:57you look at like feminism they're they're not they're not advocating actual equality um I mean I

47:05would reject what what they're wanting anyway which would be functional equality and I I mean scripture doesn't

47:11teach that it actually teaches that the husband has Authority um I mean while it affirms equality in um in in in being

47:20right in worth uh between men and women so uh but yeah I mean you see that now

47:26as it's I mean feminism wants essentially female dominance um I think

47:32that's often often the case so yeah yeah it was a just real quick I

47:39want to get back into the book a couple couple more questions but one of the things I wanted to mention is uh there

47:45was a thread going around on Twitter about um female toxic femininity and

47:51some could someone please provide examples of toxic femininity and so I I replied to that and somewhere down the

47:57thread I was able to say like well when we look at the examples of male Heroes the component of male heroism is never

48:04like haha I won over the women but when you look at female heroes in media today one of their components is always like I

48:11put down those those silly men and so you can see in that there is an element of like this isn't just about equality

48:17it's actually it's actually about Supremacy yeah absolutely I I I see that

48:24same thing It's Kind it's it's hard to miss and it's becoming I don't know that it's

48:30actually popular but it's it's trendy let's say so so to get back get back into the book um one of the things that

48:37you did like guess I kind of see the book as being divided into three sections in a way you have you have the

48:43reformers within the home and then you kind of bring it into the Commonwealth as as you said but then you also talk a

48:48little bit about um where things are in the Evangelical Church and some of the particular leaders in particular Tim

48:55Keller and his wife who um have maybe they played a central role in uh in letting some of these

49:02ideas in and and I found that to me the most shocking part of the book but before we get there I want to talk a

49:07little bit about female rule in the in the Commonwealth because you mentioned the difference between Calvin and Knox

49:13which I thought was really interesting and so maybe we can talk a little bit about that for the moment because we've gone we've talked about in the home and

49:20so now let's bring it into the Commonwealth and then we'll take a look at what's going on in the church yeah so I mean KNX has his uh I

49:28mentioned this earlier the first uh trumpet blast against the Monstrous Regiment of women and and he writes this

49:34he actually writes it anonymously at first uh and this is this is against uh bloody mary because she's she's Queen

49:42and she's uh Roman Catholic but she's persecuting Protestants she's killing Protestants and so I mean hence the name

49:49she earned Bloody Mary um but but when Knox writes his uh his uh short Trea he

49:57he doesn't um just attack her um and he he doesn't just say well

50:05women generally shouldn't rule he actually says that female rule is illegitimate he he attacks it you know

50:12entirely he says uh he's attacking just the idea of women rulers at all um now

50:18this becomes a problem because Mary dies and then Elizabeth comes to power and she's um she's a Protestant so um

50:28so I mean I think I think I think Mary I think Mary was only alive for like four years I think that's right or queen for

50:33four years so um so that that's kind of the context of what happened there and

50:40and and Elizabeth is not happy with John Knox I mean Knox is Scottish but that was under the the monarchy at the time

50:48so um Calvin was not happy about knox's uh

50:57uh uh tretis the the first blast uh

51:02because he actually writes and I have it in there basically Knox had asked him once like in private about this issue

51:09and and um you know Cal Calvin didn't see what Knox wrote immediately but once he finds out about it he he was not

51:15happy and partly because it's not that he he did disagree with Knox in part and I'll explain that but but the bigger

51:21issue I think was he just Knox caused trouble for um basically the reformers

51:27and uh and and so because I think it was published in Geneva and so uh uh uh the

51:33the you know Queen Elizabeth was upset and she was upset with uh Calvin and basa and and and and they of course

51:40aren't pleased with this situation so though they weren't they weren't in England but just relations with England

51:46so all that is to say Calvin uh and you see this in letters between uh him and

51:52also U Binger and basa they they those guys all said that

51:59um um female rule should not be ordinary so they they weren't you know happy

52:06about having Queens um they didn't think it was this great thing they just didn't think it was illegitimate so they didn't

52:12go as far as Knox um but you know you can see this in like Calvin's I mean you could just I

52:18have it in there but you can go read like his commentary on 1 Timothy 2 and he actually applies that uh you know

52:24prohibition of women teaching in the church he applies that to um Commonwealth and he just says like you

52:30know the the uh female uh power rule has always been

52:37considered a monstrous thing so I mean he's got even you know pretty strong language against against this as well so

52:42that's why I say like his view isn't that different from calv and it's not like he thought women rulers were good I

52:48mean all of these guys if they were looking at our society today would say yeah something's really out of whack I mean you know you're pushing 50% or even

52:57like higher you know majorities of your leaders are women that's that's not just some like Deborah situation where

53:03there's like yeah you know where she was a a judge I mean I I qualify that some I get in that some of the differences

53:09there in mascul Christianity with her but yes but but uh you know we can at

53:14least Grant okay there's occasional female rulers uh you know that's that's

53:20it it happens it's uh sometimes they do a decent job it's that's but that's not the issue the question is you know

53:26what's God's design for leadership should should women be leading and I think um you know the the traditional

53:33reform position consensus the minimum at least is that well it's not or it shouldn't be ordinary um you know men

53:41just as men are the leaders in the home and definitely our leaders in the church you know in the Civil realm they should

53:48ordinary should ordinarily be men but but sometimes things did happen right where a you know you would have a queen

53:53I mean they weren't we have to remember like they weren't they weren't elected it's because there was uh you know the

53:59Queen's married to the king or there's no there's no uh male Heir I mean

54:04sometimes that was part of the problem so um so anyway so a little different situation it wasn't you know a democracy

54:10or something where they're electing female female

54:15leaders so was John knox's book um was that inspired by Mary's brutality or was

54:23it was it a posture that he had already held like was it like I have to write this now and to assert that female

54:29leaders are unjust because she's persecuting Protestants or was this just something that he already believed that

54:35the circumstances gave him the opportunity to write I I don't know how much he knew or thought about women

54:42leaders before he wrote that um but okay I I think it's fair to say he probably

54:47he probably thought what he thought before he wrote it but he decided Well

54:53Mary she's she's awful and need to I need to blast her and so that's that's

54:59what he did um and I think it's just that's where his theology came

55:05out okay so so it was so it was sort of it gave him the occa sort of an urgency

55:10in his occasion you know to to express this and and so that's to be distinguished from men like Calvin and

55:17like Luther that thought that there were extraordinary circumstances where women could lead in The Commonwealth but it

55:23certainly wasn't ordinary it wasn't to be sought it wasn't to be celebrated it was it was perhaps remedial versus John

55:31Knox was like no never under any circumstances yeah he said it's illegitimate yeah so he went he went a

55:36step further yeah but I mean I guess that that makes

55:42a little sense that makes sense given the circumstances so as you were as you were investigating the reformers I meant to

55:48ask you this a little bit earlier did you find anything that these men said about these circum these uh ideas that

55:55surprised you they like oh you know like a particular Clarity that was relevant to today or or anything that was like oh

56:02I wouldn't have expected they thought this way about it yeah uh that's a good question

56:09I I mean I I guess uh at least maybe

56:16just how well they addressed this the the issues I think I think they really have good counsil I mean just even the

56:23words uh I I I mean I don't know you know look the older writers are always going to get accused by modern standards of

56:29being qu sexist uh but you you go you go read you go read them and you know they

56:36they they obviously thought highly of women they they weren't trying to keep women down I mean so so none of that

56:42surprises me but to see it drawn out you know it's pretty standard to like for speak of a husband's wife as his

56:49counselor advisor and those kind of things so you know I don't really know

56:54how you would the the the feminists would fit that with their Paradigm um because it's it's you know

57:02they weren't saying like oh yeah you just we don't care what women think you shouldn't you shouldn't even ask them

57:08their opinions no that's that's not how they uh approach things they just they just thought well you know the husband's

57:14the the head of was household and so he he he had ultimate ultimate responsibility and duties but um yeah I

57:22mean they're they're they they affirm like equality between men and women in a sense right I mean which we would all

57:29all do is is I mean they even use this language of there was that um Matthew

57:34Henry quotes it but it was from some earlier um um theologians where they

57:41they say uh Eve was not taken from Adam's head uh or uh feet but but from

57:49his is from his heart right so he doesn't trample her but but but she you know there's a nearness anality with her

57:57so so you know they say things like that was pretty standard so I mean um yeah I think feminists you know would probably

58:03be tripped up by some of the stuff if they actually read it can't be bothered yeah I thought the

58:11consistency I think the number the number of times that you that that different reformers quoted that same sentiment that she wasn't taken from

58:17Adam's head to rule over him or from his feet to be Trampled Under him but from his side to be next to him I thought

58:24that was just there were at least three or or four different reformers who said the same thing maybe they all got it from from one of their predecessors but

58:30I thought that was a very that was a very beautiful and moving sentiment that speaks exactly to the like look headship

58:39is a thing but headship and submission doesn't doesn't mean subjugation and that's of course the feminists jump

58:45right into the this is all about subjugation ditch and and Overlook the notion that this is supposed to be a a

58:51loving Bond of equality in one sense but leadership in another sense and how much homes need that because I don't think

58:58that they could make the case that our leaderless homes today are doing better than they ever have at any point in

59:04history I the joke that I've been making Is that real feminism has never been tried of course so that's uh but maybe

59:11they maybe if they investigated the reformers as you did you would they would see particularly in the church that this is a far more loving Bond than

59:18perhaps they want to interpret it as yeah absolutely I mean we've got that

59:23quote about the you know e being taken from the ri but but also just you know the the duties they um they well

59:31scriptural duties from from the Lord but they preach these to men and women and so I mean they have you read gu for

59:37example William gu I mean he's got hard words for for wives but he also has hard words for husbands and being being

59:43gentle with their wives it's first Peter 3 so yeah I mean it's just it's all balanced they're they're just wise and

59:51uh it's good good uh application from from scripture and I think really anybody would

59:57benefit from uh you know reading the the the quotations I provide in the book but

1:00:03then you can also use that to jump off and go read you know the original sources uh if you'd like to read more I

1:00:08mean like I said you could go read go and yeah I think you know just when we contrast we contrast like older culture

1:00:17uh Christian culture compared to like what we have today I mean okay everybody

1:00:23every culture's always had problems there's always been divorce and adultery and all these you know sins but you know

1:00:30who who had a who had healthier marriages um I mean we we have some very

1:00:35healthy marriages today but like overall I mean you look at our divorce rates and all these things I mean I don't know

1:00:41when you have a nation where like 40% of the children are born outside of marriage uh I mean and then the divorce

1:00:47rates I don't even know what the divorce rate is it's just High I know that uh I don't know I I don't know how you say

1:00:54that that well we've we've got a better grasp on marriage today no no we don't I'm sorry just

1:01:00don't you mentioned gu and and so uh I this was I marked this page sort of an

1:01:05extended um it's sort of an extended quote if I if I may read it real quick

1:01:10um he gu recognized it's on page I think it says this this 25 yeah gu recognized

1:01:17that some wives must quote must have their own will and quot must command not only children and servants but husbands

1:01:24also he added quot if a a husband be a man of courage and seek to stand upon his right and maintain his authority by

1:01:31requiring Obedience of his wife strange it is to behold what a hurly Burly she will make in the house but if he be a

1:01:37milk sop and basely yield unto his wife and suffer her to rule then it may be

1:01:43those uh there shall be some outward quiet the ground of her of hereof is an

1:01:48ambitious and proud humor and women who must needs rule or else they think

1:01:54themselves slaves and I thought that was a pretty powerful picture of in in a way

1:01:59like this in some sense the things that the reformers are dealing with like sin is not new it's not it's not a new it's

1:02:06not a new invention and to look into the past and to see I mentioned earlier um

1:02:12David Edington and and the abusive wife so many so many men in in his book and his practice you know they they try to

1:02:19lead righteously and the response is to have a big hurly Burly made about it as if it's slavery like well no that's

1:02:27that's not the case at all as we've been saying yeah uh let me I'll continue to quote for you because it gets even more

1:02:33controversial he says uh but but in doing so the women who react this way he

1:02:39says quote assuredly herein they thwart God's ordinance pervert the order of nature deface the image of Christ

1:02:45overthrow the ground of all Duty hinder the good of the family become an ill pattern to children and servants lay

1:02:50themselves open to Satan and incur many other mischiefs which cannot but follow upon the violating to this main duty of

1:02:56obedience which if it be not performed how can other duties be expected so uh

1:03:02that that's kind of where I was saying you know gu has some some strong words for uh for people um but in this case

1:03:08he's that's the feminist Spirit he's he's saying you know this is this is just what God calls you to do

1:03:15and if you don't obey God in this matter if wies won't submit to their husbands on what basis

1:03:21are they going to do you know other fulfill other duties and and practice other Christian virtues so uh I mean

1:03:29that's why this stuff matters right I mean the Bible's pretty clear on male headship wely

1:03:35submission um and it's just as clear as that that you should you know practice

1:03:40patience and be loving and these kind of things so um I mean if I don't know how

1:03:46we can just divide things and throw I mean I I obviously I'm familiar with the egalitarian arguments I tried to to

1:03:52dismantle them in masculine Christianity uh but uh uh you know I just if you're

1:03:59going to throw one out you're you're probably throwing other things out um

1:04:06so that's a uh that's a great opportunity to segue into the third I was going to say the third half of the

1:04:12book but really the the the third section of the book which is about um the Kell and Nancy Pier's toxic war on

1:04:19masculinity so maybe we can talk a little bit about that because you You' mentioned jokingly I don't know how they make how they Square these two things

1:04:25it's like well here are some pretty significant leaders in uh who identify

1:04:30themselves with the reformed tradition who have been doing just that like the the section about the Kell I was like I

1:04:37I couldn't read I was just my hand was over my face like what am I watching right now with with some of the things

1:04:43that were being written there so let's talk about that because that was of course we're having this conversation uh a couple days after Ray

1:04:50ortland had tweeted about his support for kamla Harris and never Trump and and

1:04:56uh of course we all have misinterpreted that obviously obviously we had misinterpreted a

1:05:01six-word tweet but um it it sort of it's up right now so maybe we can maybe we

1:05:06can talk a lot a bit about that last section yeah absolutely I mean we can

1:05:13maybe just preface this by saying that uh you know many of the leaders in the church have have done a poor job in well

1:05:19a variety of areas uh but feminism uh being one of them or male male headship

1:05:25um I think I spend like 15 pages on the Kell um you know which is unfortunate I

1:05:31mean Tim Keller was you know he he passed away last year um I mean he's

1:05:37been very influential in the PCA my my denomination I'm some the same denomination he was uh and you know just

1:05:44even out outside of really even the reformed World um and I don't know I

1:05:50mean Tim Keller's gotten a lot of criticism for you know a number of things um but I I haven't seen a lot of

1:05:56criticism on this issue in fact I've seen some people praise his wife's booklet uh which I get into in there

1:06:04which is uh Jesus Justice and gender roles it's it's very short uh published by zervan so that maybe will tell you

1:06:10where uh where it's coming from um which you know zeran is not very conservative

1:06:15uh not anymore right so yeah I mean I you can ask me specific things in here but um I I think uh

1:06:25yeah the Kell were very narrow they held to a very narrow complementarianism in fact I I I wouldn't even mean I don't

1:06:32love the term complementarianism uh for various reasons one of which is that uh you know

1:06:39that that would put their view in the same camp broadly as I mean maybe mine

1:06:45if you wanted to call me a complimentarily don't like that term but you've had that distinction between like

1:06:50broader and narrow complementarianism um but yeah I mean they're almost at like

1:06:56egalitarianism but but yeah go ahead well for so for the listeners who don't know the difference between

1:07:02between Broad and narrow complementarianism maybe to even contrast it with egalitarianism and patriarchy help because if those those

1:07:09two terms in particular like what do they mean in the context of this discussion yeah well let's start with

1:07:15like the traditional reform view um which is what you know I'm advocate in the book is uh which some people would

1:07:21call patriarchy uh just male rule it's it's God design design me a rule and so

1:07:27that would be in the home church and Commonwealth um uh that that would fit some

1:07:34complementarians who would would say they they are Broad complimentaries

1:07:56then it's 1990s you had this rise of the complementarian movement it was really a reaction against egalitarianism or

1:08:03Christian feminism which was denying male headship you know at all in the home War Church they wanted women

1:08:09pastors and mutual Mutual submission they call it in the home it's kind of crazy uh so

1:08:17um complementarianism came in and said no no no we affirm male male leadership in the home we affirm you know only only

1:08:24men can be pastors and Elders in the church and and that that's good those

1:08:29are good things to affirm but the problem is how that got played out you how that how there was how these things

1:08:35were applied and then kind of some compromise in between so so for

1:08:41example some comp some people calling themselves complimentaries they wouldn't let women hold the office of Pastor

1:08:47Elder but they would uh let women I mean you have this actually a lot there's a lot of guys who do they still let women

1:08:52teach Sunday school you know they can well they can teach men other settings okay uh but but you know some of them

1:08:59the worst offenders would say well women can actually preach as long as it's under the authority of the session right because

1:09:05they they can't be the pastor but they can preach I mean now I don't think that makes any sense um but and I I have

1:09:12various reasons for it uh some of which I get into the book but um you know I'll

1:09:17just mention one here is like 1 Timothy 2 says I do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority of a man so the

1:09:23prohibition is on teaching it's it's not limited to preaching and it's not on the office so the you you have a broad

1:09:28prohibition that women aren't to teach you know scripture to men and I I argue that that's like a public aspect um you

1:09:35know not a one-on-one you know conversation or something um so anyway

1:09:41so so I don't think it makes sense but uh you know that's the narrow complimentarity position now now the Kell never said that

1:09:50um uh that they allowed that they would allow women to preach but I don't I

1:09:55don't think they really put the breaks on that in other words I think the very things that they said in that Kathy

1:10:01Keller's booklet argues I think it it it would allow that for that position um

1:10:07though though they didn't say that that's what they held um but I do know I mean and I dug this up and I have

1:10:13footnotes on it so if people want to see my research they can find it it's all backed up uh for for King uh Timothy

1:10:19Keller I had to find stuff that was like audio you know it's he didn't write a whole lot on this um MH his wife has

1:10:26that booklet but I mean basically I can just tell you they they agreed he clearly was fine with everything she

1:10:32wrote in that booklet um and which which would make sense um so um basically he

1:10:41he allowed he allowed women to teach theology courses in their Church to men mixed groups even I think they had one

1:10:48exception he said it's like not their like I think they call it like K katak cumans class so basically they're new

1:10:53members um but yeah so so that meant like in in

1:10:59Keller's Church uh which is Redeemer New York they and I assume they're still doing this they were allowing women to

1:11:06um teach like a they did a Systematic Theology course or I don't know you're

1:11:12just going through the Old Testament or whatever in some Sunday school course they got women teaching that so I mean that's seems fairly

1:11:18egalitarian um but so so that's the thing is like the narrow complementarian position is kind of like this compromise

1:11:24of SS it's like a middle I mean it's kind of Tim Keller's thing it's the Third Way ISM

1:11:30um but yeah so that's that that's where they were and I I will mention you've seen my prediction here is people that

1:11:38really followed Keller on these things will will continue to go down a bad path I I think I think narrow

1:11:44complementarianism is very unstable um it it I mean there there's

1:11:50other issues we didn't get into but like they they don't tend to really tie the prohibition with uh nature the

1:11:56difference between men and women and so they they kind of make the prohibitions to be like arbitrary um and so then if they're just

1:12:04arbitrary then you don't really have a good reason I mean you have you have God's command I mean that's a good enough reason to follow it but but it

1:12:09does help when we understand why he said what he did why he placed prohibitions on us um which is oh well he designed

1:12:16men to lead and men are more suited for preaching and Leadership and all these things

1:12:22um so yeah so my prediction is that those who follow Kell the Kell on on

1:12:28these points will will continue to go down a path that leads them towards egalitarianism and I think we've

1:12:34actually I'll give some evidence of this we've seen some people do this um Scott SS uh was a a former PCA pastor and he

1:12:44had some issues at his church there's some discipline and he instead of coming back into the PCA he actually left and

1:12:50went to the Eco the echo which is uh Evangelical Covenant order it's actually

1:12:56an egalitarian Presbyterian denomination and he was a he was a he was a kite he

1:13:02was a disciple of Keller I mean he talked about this um and

1:13:07so uh and yeah we have to distinguish the echo from like the EPC the

1:13:13EPC has its majority egalitarian now but actually allows you know you don't have

1:13:18to be an egalitarian there but that's not the case if you go to echko if you go to Ekko you already gitaran like you

1:13:24you must affirm I guess must deny male headship um wow

1:13:29so so yeah you've seen some guys from the PCA leave and go there and I I just you know it raises questions about

1:13:37what exactly did they believe when they were in the PCA how firmly did they actually hold male headship I don't know

1:13:43I mean I can't answer those things but um couple other examples

1:13:50um uh the last couple years there's been a case in the PCA in the New York Metro

1:13:56Presbytery which which is where Tim Keller was and Redeemer they planted a bunch of churches in that area and there

1:14:03was a church that allowed a I think she was an Episcopal priest they allowed a they clearly allowed a woman preacher um

1:14:11she preached a sermon I uh I think I don't know if it her I think she even administered the sacrament there the

1:14:16supper um don't quote me on that but something happened I think there was I think there was something with the supper but but I know she definitely

1:14:22preached and um um and so there's been there was discipline and part of the problem is

1:14:28the presbyter didn't actually uh discipline the church that did that so so there that tells you something about

1:14:35the New York Metro presbyter um yeah and then that that went up to the general assembly so the general assembly the

1:14:41higher court is is handling that and now it's off to the standing judicial commission which is like basically the

1:14:47Supreme Court of the PCA so that's uh that's still going on because the SJC

1:14:52didn't want to take it up and I I if I remember correctly I think the general assembly sent it back to the SJC so but

1:14:58that's that's still in process so that's that's uh do what you will with that but at least know that happened in the New

1:15:04York Metro presbyter and then actually I've seen some well this ties into another thing

1:15:10is like even in the PCA there's a lot of churches that allow women to they they don't allow women to preach but they'll

1:15:17allow women to lead other parts of worship um and I meet like I'm specifically referring to like leading

1:15:22some prayers uh maybe some even let them do the Pastoral prayer but don't call it that I

1:15:28would assume they're not calling it the Pastoral prayer if I'm woman's doing it but uh but but but I know some will let like at least let women do some like

1:15:35smaller prayers shorter prayers in the service and then uh probably the most common thing and the Kell used to do

1:15:41this all the time or Tim Keller um is they'd have women read scripture um prior to the the this the sermon I mean

1:15:48that's pretty common if you ever listen to a Tim Keller sermon that's it almost seem like the majority of the time of

1:15:53the sermons I've heard by him is as they he'd have a woman read his scripture text um now I'm just going to say I'm a

1:16:01preacher and I don't like anybody reading my text so so I want to read my

1:16:07own text uh before I get up there one it's just you know it's just fresh on my mind uh but two you know I might add

1:16:13something explain something or just I want to read it the way I want to read I want to make sure it's read well um and

1:16:19and I'm best suited to do that because of I I you know prepped from it all week

1:16:24uh um so there's just that principle um but but that being said like you know

1:16:30our our church in our liturgy we do have other scripture readings and and prayers and things like that and we we only let

1:16:38Elders do that um so it either has to be me or as the teaching Elder Pastor or a

1:16:44ruling Elder um I I think as along with the Westminster assembly would make the

1:16:50exception of like a a man who's training for the ministry he's an intern or he's a late he might be licensed to preach by

1:16:56the Presbyterian you know that's fine I think all that's good um it's keeping with the spirit of of uh the the the

1:17:04pastors and Elders doing these things and and and the scripture texts I mean the fact is is that you you have

1:17:11entire you have you have prohibitions on an entire class of people in in the New Testament and that would be on women so

1:17:17you have in 1 Timothy 2 and then First Corinthians 14 34-35 where it says like let the women

1:17:22be silent in the churches so I I mean if you have these

1:17:28uh prohibitions on women as a class that means women shouldn't be publicly

1:17:34speaking in church they shouldn't be teaching or exercising Authority um in in over the congregation so I mean I

1:17:40think that's just pretty simple this is the reformed tradition I give I give quotes to back all this up um even

1:17:47though I'll even I'll note even the Westminster larger catechism which the the PCA it's part of our standards um I

1:17:54think it's one um it's 156 I'd have to look um says uh

1:18:02are all are all to read it's basically asking are all to read in public worship and the answer is it says it says not

1:18:09all are to read uh and it gives some qualification now it doesn't say who's not to read okay it's not it's not like

1:18:14explicit I wish they were more explicit but um right what I show in there is the context that that the the westmin

1:18:21assembly drafted other documents and so they directory for worship you can go

1:18:27there and it it very clearly connects and you see ah when they said all or not to read they meant uh only ministers and

1:18:35those training for the uh the ministry so they they clearly didn't think women should be reading uh scripture in in

1:18:43public worship so all that is to say the Kellers amongst others have departed

1:18:49from uh the reformed tradition in in this regard and uh you know one thing

1:18:55I'm trying to do is call them back to consistency here and I don't think it's I don't think it's good to have women

1:19:02leading you know in our our worship Services um but but there's kind of the

1:19:08spirit I mean we all see it uh and it's not limited to the PCA or anything I mean Wayne gudam does this uh Tom

1:19:15Shriner you know he's a southern baptist I mean I've got quotes from there from them in here and I think also mcine

1:19:20Christianity where they're like they're basically saying you know we we obviously have to follow scripture

1:19:26but but we want to push women to as many positions as as we can and I'm like oh

1:19:33whoa whoa that's that's not what I'm getting from the Bible um you know the Bible has prohibitions but um it it you

1:19:41know it certainly isn't saying we should push for these the these other things push the bow push the boundary as much

1:19:46as you can um no that's a very modern like Spirit that's a very modern feminist Spirit um and so I guess that's

1:19:54that's just I would say there is like that's they're they're not getting this stuff from the Bible

1:20:00um I mean I know someone them might appeal to like 1 Corinthians 11:5 which speaks of women praying and prophesying

1:20:05I deal with that the reformers all dealt with that I don't think it's permissive uh certainly not a command um and uh

1:20:13it's I rais questions about the context I don't I think it's about private or semi-private situations like a Bible

1:20:20study I I I don't I don't think it's talking about public worship so anyway there's a whole host of issues

1:20:26there uh but but yeah to just to wrap up what you're saying is the Kellers are have been a have been a driver behind

1:20:32pushing kind of this narrow complementarianism that's uh as as you

1:20:38were talking about those things I remember reading masculine Christianity and just getting a sense of how fine the

1:20:45people who are trying to bring feminism into the church how fine they slice things it's it's actually pretty

1:20:51remarkable the amount of brain power that must be applied to like well how can we just shave off just a little bit

1:20:59right like let's bring let's bring women into all these places where like a plain reading of scripture explicitly

1:21:06prohibits that but then you get I think it's 1 Corinthian Corinthians 11 you said how much they hang on that one

1:21:13verse right and and that verse in context of everything else throughout

1:21:18all of the Bible like you can't say that well this is the little Keyhole that we can sque squeeze things through through

1:21:25and yet they're trying and that was the thing that was so shocking to me particularly in the section about the

1:21:30kers is that obviously there's a lot of a lot of um we'll call it scriptural wisdom there but that seems to have been

1:21:37used to like well what can we cut off to enable things that otherwise any any

1:21:44sensible person would look and be like that's not allowed but because of their scriptural wisdom they knew exactly

1:21:49where to push and that's that's the troubling part to me yeah I think uh BB Warfield uh he's he

1:21:58he got into U was the old Princeton Theologian um he got

1:22:04into uh that that passage with 1 Corinthians 14 and and 11 and he looks

1:22:11at 115 about women praying and prophesying and he says he says what this means nobody basically I'm

1:22:16paraphrasing but what this means nobody really knows and you know we're building up we're building up inference after inference you know when when we start

1:22:23you know saying well oh well this means we should have women leading prayers and

1:22:28and public worship I mean that's that's a that's it's one passage one verse not

1:22:34even a it's not even really a passage it's like a part of a passage one verse

1:22:39phrase and uh we're going to you know run with it I mean that's that's basically how Christian egalitarians

1:22:46work is they find anything they find you know they they go to Deborah and uh well

1:22:52let's make Deborah normative I mean that's that's pretty much how their their uh you know hermeneutics

1:22:58work it's it's it's not good nobody's Nobody Does this with other stuff you you shouldn't it's not a good practice

1:23:03so uh we don't we don't take the less clear things uh the muddy things and make you know build whole doctrines and

1:23:10practices on it that's uh it's a bad idea so yeah don't do that I I remember

1:23:16in our first interview uh I I asked you um what the response had been to

1:23:21masculine Christianity you gave a really good answer but but what has the response been to to this book like as

1:23:28you've launched out there into the world what's what's the response been broadly yeah well I'm a little concerned because

1:23:33I I only seem to get positive feedback so um I I uh my my my thought is probably that uh

1:23:42you know my my critics or people who don't like this stuff aren't they either aren't reading it that's probably the

1:23:47most common thing is they don't they don't want to touch the stuff I write or they read it and uh I mean this is what

1:23:54I would hope they read it and they go oh I'm not interacting with that um that's just going to get me in trouble um and

1:24:01that I mean that's that's kind of what I I want I want I want people to read my books and think that they can't refute

1:24:07it and that there's no reason to even try publicly and it's they're just going to look bad so um in in this case I mean I mean I I

1:24:15argue things right so so this book is an argument um it is contrasting like the the older reform theologians with the

1:24:22modern modern Church modern reformed uh leaders and whatnot and one of the things it's

1:24:28trying to show is that we've departed from our reformed forefathers I think that's obvious I I

1:24:33don't think that's debatable um but what they would have to do if you wanted to defend some sort of egalitarianism or

1:24:40Nar complementarianism you would have to then take the position if you read my book you'd have to say well they were

1:24:45all wrong who wants to do that right who who wants to say Calvin uh

1:24:52verley Knox gu you know down the line Perkins

1:24:57everybody they were all wrong they just I know they all agreed but they they all misinterpreted the Bible they all got it

1:25:03wrong and uh we today are are right you know I mean just that's that's kind of a crazy position um you know I I say in

1:25:12the book it's it's it's always possible that the church has errored but uh you know when that that's that's more likely

1:25:19when there's like VAR variance in views and but but when you have like a consens

1:25:25especially I mean you I I mean this book only gets in the reformers I me you could also get into I do get in the

1:25:30American Presbyterian some like the 18th 19th century uh which that you know they're in line me then you could throw

1:25:36in the church fathers and you could probably go in the medieval church and when everybody's saying the same thing and they're all in like essential

1:25:42agreement um let's just put it this way the the historical argument is not on the side

1:25:47of the feminists mhm so so anyway to answer your question I I haven't received a lot

1:25:54of um criticism um I I mean but you know

1:26:00in one sense it's good it's uh you know less controversy on my part um but but I

1:26:05hope and I I do think what I'm doing with my books honor thy fathers and masculine Christianity is I'm trying to

1:26:11I'm trying to feed the Brethren right I I uh I'm trying to uh uh build up the church and give them tools and weapons

1:26:19for uh for proper Doctrine for fighting egalitarianism for fighting against narrow

1:26:26complementarianism and um yeah I I I hope that's uh rallying

1:26:32the troops that's another thing is just kind of encouraging encouraging the Brethren so that's uh that's that's

1:26:37that's what I hope my books even these interviews are are doing and um just

1:26:42kind of get this stuff into other people's hands I just have a I have I want to be

1:26:48respectful of your time but I did have one more question if if you if you've got a minute absolutely

1:26:54so um I I wonder and now I don't I don't want to spoil it but it's one of my favorite parts of the book was the seven

1:27:01step process for feminization and speaking of encouraging the Brethren I wonder if you could I I

1:27:08want people to read the book it's like it's it's the it's at the end of the book it's completely worth it to read the whole book just to like exactly so

1:27:15but without giving it away maybe you can talk a little bit about that process just just a bit because I I found that

1:27:21to be very encouraging yeah uh so I don't give it away I won't read it because I I won't

1:27:27remember it exactly but um this is one I I mean I can read it this is one of the funny things you know when you write a

1:27:32book um for those who haven't is you know you don't remember every detail you you wrote uh and I I go back and reread

1:27:40things I've written before um so so I said that oh oops yeah um as far as the

1:27:47conclusion goes um from what I recall I basically you you know say that um

1:27:54the church there's kind of a trajectory the church slides into egalitarianism and there and there's some steps and so

1:28:02some of those are like the first I think I list is well they they're not they're not reading the

1:28:07older theology older reformers on on on these issues um you know I think I say

1:28:14they they read uh they read the Puritans but they don't they don't read the Puritan William gge you know they they

1:28:22he he had a very popular book of Dom domestical duties on on the family and they don't read that I said how many pastors how many pastors are handing out

1:28:29of domestical duties or recommending to their uh congregants uh you know probably not very many hopefully that

1:28:35changes but um and then um and and then some of it just starts

1:28:42with like I think negligence is is they they're not doing the the the active

1:28:47things we need to do you know teaching the the scriptures on these uh passages and and reading the reformers they don't

1:28:54they don't talk about um women outside the home they kind of just let that be and then next thing you know you got all

1:29:00this massive cultural pressure of feminism um and and then and then next

1:29:07next thing you know they're not even speaking on things really in the church significantly and so that that's really

1:29:14I mean how I summarize it is there's there's this negligence and then it leads to you know women leading in all

1:29:21sorts of positions and that um you know we end up with like this very very

1:29:26narrow practice where it's just like well we just we just won't have a woman as the senior pastor or a woman as the

1:29:33right we just won't have a woman president of the college we'll just you know um you know have women in

1:29:39leadership all over and I mean how long does that last I mean not not very long where well we're we're going to at least

1:29:45keep a man as the the senior pastor or president of the institution I mean

1:29:50eventually if you're putting women in leadership all around then it's going to lead to I I think you know complete

1:29:55capitulation through egalitarianism so um I don't know was there anything else you want to add I

1:30:02mean I I I do know I say like which way are we going to go you know as a church are we going to are we going to we going

1:30:07to follow the path of feminism or are we going to uh follow the path of our

1:30:14forefathers the the conclusion that kind of outlined what I liked about it was like this you laid out this happens

1:30:20first and then you'll see this happen and then this happened and you sort of you know this leads us to this

1:30:26egalitarian or perhaps even inverted you know kind of kind of situation and it

1:30:31was those seven steps that you laid out so clearly that it was so intuitive like oh yes obviously you know this inverted

1:30:37scenario is where that's going to lead to and then you're not far from there from the sparkle Creed like just throw

1:30:42yourself into it wholeheartedly and I what I found encouraging about that is I think it would help um the Brethren and

1:30:49the sister so to speak to to identify where their Church might be in that

1:30:54process and reverse and reverse the trends like if you're if you're on stage three of a Steven step process you might

1:31:02be able to turn things around if you can spot it for what it is but you know of course if you're at like you know six or

1:31:08seven perhaps where it's already a five alarm fire H maybe not so much yeah that

1:31:13that's a great point and I I think like if if you're at like this well without getting specific SC just say if you're

1:31:19if you're like a narrow complementarianism um you you can still

1:31:24Salvage things right I mean you know you don't have women officers in your church or or women Elders at least uh or Pastor

1:31:31you know you you maybe you just you just need to change some practices hey we've been having women you know do a lot of

1:31:37things up front that we shouldn't we shouldn't be doing you can reverse course on that you can as a session

1:31:43actually like look into the issue and uh uh make a determination and then and

1:31:49then change course and uh and and and like you said it's so instead of going down that path of like well actually

1:31:56we're going to you know consider uh ordaining women as Elders I mean no you you can you can go back towards a more

1:32:02faithful you know traditional reform position um so yeah for for many for

1:32:09many I think today it's it's not it's not too late I mean sometimes your church turns completely egalitarian and

1:32:15then you know you probably if you're a member there or whatever you probably just have to leave but um I mean I have

1:32:21heard of occasional situations where pastors have gone in I don't think this is common but um you know maybe have

1:32:27women elders and they're female elders and they're actually they have like concerns about this I mean they they don't think us is ideal and they're

1:32:34willing to even step down and so so that does happen um so yeah I mean I think we

1:32:39should we should be just positive and that yeah there this stuff's messy there's a lot of problems in the church

1:32:45but I do think uh you know we should always be repenting and always be seeking greater faithfulness towards the

1:32:50Lord in in in all things and uh it w can't correct wrongs we might have we might have made mistakes in the past we

1:32:58might have given into feminism in some ways uh uh caved into culture but we we

1:33:04can for the most part reverse course and uh it might bring some hardship it

1:33:09doesn't mean it's going to be easy but but that's what repentance looks like and uh that's what faithfulness to God looks like so so hopefully that's at

1:33:16least an encouraging note to to end on is that there is there is hope for improvement and and greater faithfulness

1:33:22in these areas amen that's very encouraging especially because of the work that you've done in

1:33:28in your two books you know I'll just hold them up real quick you know honor thy fathers and masculine Christianity paints such a clear picture this is what

1:33:36it looks like and here are the arguments that feminists and egalitarians Marshall

1:33:41you know to to misinterpret scripture here's what it actually means and here's what our reformed forefathers once said

1:33:48and here's what and putting the two books together of course here's what it looks like in our modern world and so that that clear picture that you've

1:33:54painted is like it's a wakeup call like oh this is this is not what it's supposed to look like this is what it is

1:34:00supposed to look like and we can start working our way back there

1:34:06absolutely amen um well uh this has been a fantastic conversation yet again thank

1:34:14you so much for uh for for coming on the show and thank you so much for writing your books um where would you like to

1:34:19send uh people to find out more about you and what you do yeah they uh you can find masculine

1:34:25Christianity on Amazon honor thy fathers uh at least the ebook is on Amazon

1:34:30otherwise you have to go to the new christum press uh page uh for the hardback but hey it's it's worth having

1:34:36the hardback I think it's a nice addition um otherwise people can go to my website I write uh fairly regularly

1:34:42at knowing scripture.com that's more bible-based uh articles sometimes I write for other

1:34:48websites um but yeah uh otherwise you can follow me on Twitter at Zachary GIS

1:34:55wonderful wonderful well thank you do real quick do you have another book planned or is there something in the works I am working on a project uh with

1:35:03a friend sha mcon on uh the southern Presbyterians so it's more of a historical I mean I guess this last book

1:35:10was some that hystorical but um at church I've been teaching through American Presbyterian church history and

1:35:17uh I've been heavily you know kind of studying the the the southerners in particular and so I think that will be

1:35:24useful because there's not a lot on the southern Presbyterian Church I mean that's the the uh well the the mother

1:35:31Church of the PCA the PCA actually came out of the Southern uh Presbyterian Church in 1973 and there's a lot of uh

1:35:38interesting history there and um yeah I I mean I love the reformers but I also

1:35:44love American Presbyterians so I I hope this will um be of use uh and and I I

1:35:49certainly think it'll be interesting we've we've uh uncovered a lot of information and probably gone through

1:35:55more books uh than I uh had hoped

1:36:01to you mean you also had a really nice appearance I I think I'm going to get the date wrong but I think it's the 16007 project yes I was very happy to

1:36:08see you in that documentary maybe you can talk about that for just a minute yeah yeah real briefly um so that was with the Abbyville Institute and I I had

1:36:16written articles for them several years back and then

1:36:21um I I got as to contribute an essay on

1:36:26um religion in Virginia uh because that was a uh this is for this the 1607

1:36:34project uh book they they also did a book America first so I I contri contribut that chapter and actually

1:36:40that's kind of what got me started on writing on the the southern Presbyterians is I was um I mean I had

1:36:46read a lot on like Robert Lewis Dabney and some other guys but I ended up really diving in to other

1:36:54Southern figures like John Hol rice he was an important guy in in Virginia but there's also archal Alexander was from

1:37:00Virginia he was the first uh uh professor of theology at Princeton seminary in 1812 so he's he's kind of a

1:37:06big name um I his his student is the most famous it was Charles hodj but um

1:37:12yeah there's there's just a lot of great history there and and so then um I was asked to be in the documentary the

1:37:19Virginia first uh the 16007 project so that's available on YouTube it's free

1:37:25and I think it's great it's it's got a lot of good history it's kind of contrasting Virginia with like the New England Puritans and I I certainly think

1:37:32there's good of both groups but um there are some like some things you see least

1:37:39note here is you know I think I think uh you know the South's referred to as the Bible Belt still today and kind of

1:37:45Orthodox Christianity survived longer in the South so there's we can discuss why that's the case you know there's

1:37:50different opinions um but the fact is I think there's something healthy about uh

1:37:56you know sou Southern um Christianity yeah John Harris and I

1:38:01talked a little bit about that when he was on the podcast that came out a couple weeks ago at this at this point in time but it was it was uh maybe when

1:38:08you finish this book on Southern Presbyterians because I think a lot of people in America don't really understand where the different Presbyterian denominations kind of came

1:38:15from they're kind of and there is a a very large Baptist to Presbyterian pipeline that's happening right now

1:38:20certainly I I had my own journey through that so um I think that could be a really interesting thing to inform people like

1:38:26well the traditions in America the denominational Traditions they have specific roots and specific places and

1:38:31times that I think we can feel but that we don't necessarily know because as what's the joke that church history uh

1:38:38for for American Protestants began with Billy Graham something like that yeah I I don't like that joke because uh you

1:38:45know that's uh unfortunately an insult to uh you know probably what many people believe um yeah I I mean Presbyterian

1:38:52part of the problem is Pres history is kind of complicated because it came out of came out of Scotland I mean it has

1:38:57its roots in the Reformation like you know Calvinism and reformed theology but uh came out of

1:39:03Scotland um and and but then you you have a you have the American Presbyterian Church it's it's its own

1:39:09thing but you have splits and divisions new school old school and then northern

1:39:14southern church and then reunions and then liberalism in the in the 20th century so a lot of it gets there's

1:39:20definitely some like you know complicated factors involved uh which is why why it's been great on

1:39:25my part to teach through it but also really dive into the to the sources um

1:39:30and so hopefully yeah I mean I think the book The book's going to be pretty long but it's going to have a lot of biography in it and Theology and I think

1:39:37people will like that but um even I can probably do some interviews and like explain some of the details make it a

1:39:42little clearer for people give them big big picture uh information on like on on American presbyterianism uh that

1:39:49hopefully will be useful um because because like I said I like I like both the 16th and 17th century reform

1:39:56theologians I think we should embrace them but I also think there's a lot of good uh to embrace from the American

1:40:03Presbyterians I agree and and I think as America tries to find its way forward with its you know Christian identity in

1:40:09terms of Christian nationalism what does that actually look like what actually is our Christian history in America because it's kind of fuzzy once you get you know

1:40:16past like 1900s looking backwards it's fuzzy for a lot of people and but I I I do think that those themes are still

1:40:22very very present but we don't know how to recognize them perhaps yeah and maybe

1:40:27if I could just add one thing here is one of the interesting thing with things with the American Presbytarian is they kind of bridge the gap like so if we're

1:40:33to talking Christian nationalism like Christian government and things like that is you know most people we know

1:40:40what we have today we might read about the reformers oh they had like you know Christian magistrates and things like

1:40:46that but but what you have in the United States is that the early colonies were were Christian um for the most most part

1:40:53I mean you you had different levels of establishment I mean you had like the uh you know New England Puritans had the

1:40:59Congregational Church uh but then in the South you had a lot of Anglican establishments but then they had strong

1:41:05denters uh like the Presbyterians Baptists and then eventually the methodists which came out of the anglicans um and and but but what was

1:41:13interesting is like so you have this kind of transition is you know people always say the First Amendment freedom

1:41:19of religion those kind of things but that actually was only a Prohibition on the federal government from establishing a church but but the states were trying

1:41:25to sort out well how are we going to do things so like Virginia had disestablished their Church uh before

1:41:31before the uh US Constitution right before and then um um you know some of the other states

1:41:39like like South Carolina actually for 12 years had a general establishment that

1:41:44allowed for like just the generally established Christianity now they didn't keep it uh but a lot of those states did

1:41:49keep like requirements that magistrates were uh were Protestants even they had to affirm

1:41:55the Protestant religion um and eventually over time some of that stuff just kind of faded away and you know we

1:42:03we became more pluralistic in the United States but um yeah I I think uh it's the

1:42:10history there is at least interesting and it it it certainly shows that while I I wouldn't say America was strictly a

1:42:16Christian country because in one sense we're a republic we did have like Christian states with within the

1:42:21Republic and um and and so yeah I mean that's just that's just the history there is is

1:42:27America at one point was like 98% Protestant and and in mostly British

1:42:34you know origin and and with immigration and things things things started to change in the 1800s um but yeah so a lot of history

1:42:42there that people just unfortunately are unfamiliar with but I think hopefully we can change that uh hopefully it's

1:42:48starting to change some now and we'll continue to change it in the future

1:42:53I definitely look forward to that book coming out and reading it and and we can we can have another conversation like this one I've enjoyed our chats yeah

1:42:59absolutely I'd be be glad to do that some point cool well thank you so much Zach this is this has been great and um

1:43:05definitely everyone go out and buy honor thy fathers and provoke a feminist today