0:00

having a healthy family is the hardest thing to do on the planet being a

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husband and and dealing with the heart of a of a woman and still being a Godly

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Man and then also still managing friendships and relationships and then

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all of these things and then and then not at the same time leading them to Christ and then still dealing with your

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own sin and your own uh confusions and the lies that you you believe and feelings of failure and all of those

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things and then still trying to move forward and create something that's valuable and worthy that's it's the

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hardest thing it's the hardest thing in the whole

0:45

world hello my name is Will Spencer and welcome to the will Spencer podcast this

0:51

is a weekly Show featuring in-depth conversations with authors leaders and influencers who help us understand our

0:58

changing World new episodes release every Friday my guest this week is Aaron

1:03

Smith half of the online Ministry marriage after God he and his wife Jennifer have become best-selling

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authors podcast hosts and more helping Christian singles and married couples

1:15

align their faith in the direction of family in a Christian courtship climate

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that often feels hopeless overwhelmed with frightening statistics of young women leaving church men failing to

1:28

launch declining marriage and birth rates and shocking divorce stories Aaron

1:33

and Jennifer take a different approach faithfulness be faithful to who God has

1:39

called you to be as a man or woman we have a loving father in Heaven listen to

1:44

him follow him be obedient to him and his commands about becoming and being a

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spouse and then a parent and let the rest take care of itself not only because you can't fix the world and

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neither can I it's literally not our job it's Christ's and he's the man for it

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instead we are called to fix ourselves and our lives with his help if we're

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scared to commit we have to overcome that if we're resisting the call to righteous and mature adulthood embodied

2:15

in marriage and parenting we have to overcome that too if we're too busy arguing online or scrolling or browsing

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we have to get past that to become the husbands and wives mothers and fathers

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we can be and reap those spiritual rewards now naturally in our hyper

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politicized extremely online world of digital fear that message Probably

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sounds a bit out of step with the times and if it does good because I don't put

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my hope in the world and neither should you we as Christians have the opportunity and responsibility to put

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our hope in Christ and our faith in God and be as obedient as little children

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and because God's word is true we'll discover amidst our anxiety the reality

3:01

of Psalm 23 which you've heard before but I'd like to read to you now quote

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the Lord is my shepherd I shall not want he makes me to lie down in Green Pastures he leads me beside the Still

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Waters he restores my soul he leads me in the paths of righteousness for his

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name's sake yay though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil for you are with me your

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rod and your staff they com me you prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies you anoint my

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head with oil my cup runs over surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all

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the days of my life and I will dwell in the house of the Lord Forever This is

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the spirit that I see in forming the work of Aaron and Jennifer Smith and marriage after God there's a

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peacefulness around it a promise a faithfulness that isn't Sensational but

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it is Godly and here to remind us that while the search for a mate is often more difficult and fraught than any

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other time in history God's word does not return void again God's word does

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not return void so we as single cording engaged and married people get to make a

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choice whose word will we listen to feminism or her son the manosphere will

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we listen to the mainstream media and Hollywood our secular relatives our unredeemed parents parents if we have

4:30

them romance novels YouTube videos or Twitter influencers yes those voices are super

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plentiful and super loud but Aaron and Jennifer's work lovingly guides us away

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from all of them turning down the volume so God can speak about his design and

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desires for us and how to go about fulfilling them it's a hard message for

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men and women yes or at least a challenging one but it's the truth and

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we're either ready to hear it and die to ourselves forever men and women to get the rich blessings that are on the other

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side or we not and we'll have to stand before God and answer for that I believe

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so in this conversation May Aaron's story inspire you may his words reach you may the resources he and his wife

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provide turn your heart and may you see just for a moment the promise that lies

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for us as men and women ahead because that's what happened for me now friends

5:30

let's be real this podcast isn't just another show it's a conversation about things that actually matter if you find

5:37

Value in this episode I need three things from you first subscribe hit that

5:42

button like you mean it and make sure to click the Bell icon so you don't miss future episodes second leave a real

5:49

comment not a throwaway great video I want to hear your actual thoughts what

5:54

challenged you what made you think differently and third share this these conversations matter and if something we

6:01

discussed could help someone see the world differently please pass this along if you want to go deeper check out my

6:08

substack or buy me a coffee links in the show notes every contribution keeps this

6:13

independent platform running because this isn't about me this is about creating a space for real conversations

6:21

and please welcome this week's guest on the podcast from Marriage after God Aaron

6:27

Smith Aaron Smith from Marriage after God thanks so much for joining me on the will Spencer podcast will thanks for

6:33

having me man excited yeah I've been looking forward to having this conversation with you we got to chat I

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don't know was that one or two months ago and get to know each other and uh I've just really enjoyed and as we

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talked about before I've really enjoyed yours and your wife's perspective on uh

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courtship dating and marriage it's very hopeful in a time when I think a lot of

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people are very frightened about their their marriage prospects and uh and I've really appreciated your approach to

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being encouraging to men and women who are worried about this set of topics let's say thank you yeah it's it's been

7:10

on Jennifer and n's heart for as long as we've been married even before we were married I I had a big vision

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for uh when I was younger really desired to be a husband and uh being a father

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came later of course as in my desire because that's something that um the world didn't really um instill in me a

7:29

good good idea of what being a father was like but the Lord changed that in my heart after we got married and now I got

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six kids so oh my goodness yeah definitely um definitely working my way up there up the ladder of fatherhood and

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trying to figure that out but yeah uh we do live in a pretty strange number seven

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yeah well my kids are begging my my wife to our youngest is four months old and

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they're already begging her to have another one and she's like guys chill can we slow this down please yeah um

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anyway I'm sorry I interrupted you it's okay uh no it it's a big it's a big deal

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um but there is hope for I I especially Believers like we having a heart of a

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desire for marriage the the Bible says that that's a good thing to desire desire our wife and uh and so I just I

8:18

hope to see more and more Believers getting connected and not being un unequally OED you know not connect not

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trying to get attached to the world and not just trying to say well I can't find anyone here I'm going to go there but

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really trus in the Lord that's what I had to do I think it's kind of what God wants all of us as Believers to do is to trust him with every aspect aspect of

8:38

our life especially our spouses yeah that's um I'm very fortunate that I have both men and women

8:44

who listen to this podcast and uh married couples as well and so have the opportunity to speak into both sides of

8:51

this challenge because I think men and women face slightly different challenges I in some ways the challenges are very

8:56

similar you know delaying marriage you know worrying about am I ready right the general lack of lack of seeming lack of

9:04

Partners in the in the in the marriage pool but I think that there are a lot of people that do have a heart for it so

9:09

why don't we start with speaking to the men so let's rewind the clock back to

9:14

when you got married kind of where you were at and the thoughts that the thoughts that you were having at the time obviously it was a very different

9:21

climate back then there's probably not a whole ton of online dating very different social climate but you it

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sounds like you had some uh some work some lack of some knowledge gaps but you

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still boldly stepped into marriage and maybe we can talk a little bit about that

9:39

yeah excuse me um it was a totally different time totally different climate

9:45

I don't think it's hard I I I say this with with respect to people

9:52

that are single right now but I I don't envy those that are single in the current climate we're in but to be

9:57

honest back when I was you know young adult you know young man you know wanted to be

10:03

married there was no training there was no understanding at least from my

10:09

personal life I'm sure some people out there have got you know had fathers and and mothers that that guided them and

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gave them really good clear Direction and and what to look for and what to think about and what marriage is and

10:20

what we are as men becoming husbands one day and and then eventually fathers I I didn't know what I was doing

10:28

I didn't know what I was looking for for um and you kind of get as a single

10:33

person as a Believer specifically but any single person gets thrown into this mix of like well you're single and you

10:39

have to figure out what it means to be you alone and at the same time if you desire to be married you got to figure

10:45

out what it means to be become a husband one day and and there's all these thoughts of how do I know if I'm ready

10:51

when am I ready uh you know what kind of person am I looking for how do I know it's the right person how do I know when

10:56

to make pop the question how do I know you know there's all these things and and I don't know where they came

11:02

from all these questions and ideas on how to pursue a

11:07

person you know if you think about history up until the 21st century it

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wasn't that way it was much simpler of a concept of well you are a man you become

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a husband you know in general it was it was rare to just remain a single person that happened and and the Bible even

11:27

talks about that that some people have different giftings um but I would I would venture to say that the majority of men and women are

11:33

meant to be married are meant to start Families Are Meant to that's that's exactly what God calls us to in Genesis

11:39

chapter 1 and two and then he tells Noah the same exact thing be fruitful and multiply fill the Earth um and that's

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one of his desires for family and that's what is one of his desires is for men

11:51

and so I'm young and I'm I'm thrown into this mix and I'm I'm thinking about it of course I'm like I want to be married

11:57

I want a wife I'm thinking about wanting to remain pure and wanting to wait for marriage for sex and so in my mind I'm

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like well I want sex and that's a that's a big deal to me and so I got to get

12:10

married I got to figure that out and there so there's this biological draw which all of us have women have a bi

12:16

biological clock they they start recognizing when they're fertile and ready to go and um you know ready to

12:22

have children that's that's the internal biological Drive in us that how God designed us and it's it's a good thing

12:29

you know when you're younger you have higher testosterone we we we listen all these podcasts that talk about Men's Health and uh it makes sense the higher

12:36

testosterone dra causes you to do more um outgoing things more adventurous

12:42

things more dangerous things as in going to talk to a woman seems pretty dangerous sometimes um and then that

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that biological draw that God put in US put it draws us drives us to seek a mate

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seek a wife um but then God desires us to do it his way desires us to be patient desires us to be self-control

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desires to be honorable and um wise and all of these things on top of that and

13:07

so there's no I don't think there's an easy answer other than um I think there

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are um more things that we've added on top of this pursuit of of a wife of a

13:21

spouse this understanding of marriage that makes it harder to find a spouse

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and find a wife and and start a family um I.E you know this question of when am

13:33

I ready right that's right that's a big question okay so is it when you're

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financially ready is it when you're mature enough is it when you've stopped

13:45

sinning in this certain way is it when you know when are you ready like that is such a subjective question it literally

13:52

has no black and white answer there's no it's just well when are you ready what's

13:57

your time what's and then the other question is like okay then you add on top of that like well

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this person I'm interested in when are they ready now you have two subjective

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truths that you're looking for an answer to and that's a that's a hard thing to nail down is it when you've bought a

14:14

house is it when you've put enough in savings because I we hear these all the time like oh you don't have enough money you haven't you know had enough fun yet

14:21

you haven't been you haven't lived alone yet you haven't saved enough money you don't have the career you want yet you

14:26

don't have all of these things are completely subjective and to be honest

14:32

may or may not have anything to do with God's will for your life and God's desire for who you are as a person

14:37

that's right so we we ask that question to ourselves and then it causes us um

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paralysis we're like well I don't maybe I'm not ready maybe I I shouldn't but in

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essence the Simplicity of Readiness is it boils down to willingness it's like

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are you ready currently to vow to a single person for the rest of your life

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like that it doesn't matter because to be honest like you could be ready now have million dollars in the bank account

15:11

no debt you own your own house you have the career you want okay you find a

15:16

bride and you're like I'm ready you get married and you could lose it all the next day so are you now you're not ready

15:23

and so did you make a mistake did you all of those things on trying to figure

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out what's the right timing what's the th those are all subjective and I think

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they're all ancillary to the reality of marriage really comes down to are you

15:39

willing to commit are you ready to commit and that's has nothing to do with

15:45

your bank account or the career you have or if you own a home or if you have even

15:50

have a car now some of those things might be good to pursue and be and as a man you should be pursuing those things

15:57

but my mother mother-in-law before we got married she was very nervous um you

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know I'm fresh out of college I don't really have a career I'm doing some you

16:08

know uh Youth pastoring and she's like I'm just afraid that you're not going to be able to take

16:14

care of my daughter and I said well I said I can't promise you that for the rest of my life I'm going to be able to perfectly take care of her because I

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literally can't promise that I'm I'm probably going to go through hardships I said but I promise you this that I'm

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going to do everything in my power to make sure I can to the best of my ability like that

16:31

that's the promise that's the only promise I can make is that I'm going to do the best I can to take care of your

16:36

daughter for the rest of her her life and uh that was enough to like give her peace that like well you may not

16:43

have the money that I wish you had or the the career that I wish you had or

16:49

you know but your heart is for her and that's what we should be looking back

16:55

looking at is well if my Readiness should be based on my my willingness in

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my heart not my bank account or you know owning of a home or anything like

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that I don't know if that answer your question that was a lot no that that actually answered my question on the

17:13

bullseye because uh I interact with a lot of men these days who say those

17:18

exact things well when I have the right career when I have enough money saved up when I own my own home etc etc and the

17:26

the tendency the tendency is you can't actually control when any of those things will happen there are any number

17:33

of things that can happen on any given day that make achieving your material goals you know bring them closer or make

17:40

them much further away in an instant and so I I see that men fall into this

17:46

temptation of waiting until they hit some Metric and then they're ready to settle down and get married and by that

17:52

point they're far older than they could or perhaps should have been and so

17:58

there's this pushing it down the track and you know trying to get men to confront that like that's you're just

18:04

trying to avoid the responsibility is is what I sort of chalk that up to it's very easy for a man to say you know oh

18:11

I'm I'm not ready yet when inside it's like he knows that marriage is a death to self he's losing a version of himself

18:18

forever and so it's nice it's okay cool I thought I I thought I was crazy but um

18:24

but it sounds like it sounds like you nailed it well and and that's exactly what it is in reality Timothy kill talks

18:29

about this and I believe it's a meaning of marriage he talks about this idea of like who who you're going to marry doesn't exist yet because you haven't

18:35

married her yet you know like you said like you cease to be the the the version of you before

18:42

marriage will immediately cease to exist because you immediately become one with another person you're no longer a single

18:50

entity and you're you're a unified entity and your identity then gets wrapped up in you and her not you

18:58

someday with her and that's right and the and the fear I think a lot of men have and women have the same they might

19:04

have a different list of criteria of Readiness but it's the same thing it's the same uh fear that holds

19:14

back and what it comes down to is that if you can ask yourself this question

19:20

like is a spouse going to hinder you from Meeting those goals meeting the

19:27

like is it is that where you're really we're really saying is I can't get to my career or my level of savings or my with

19:34

a spouse because all of the statistics say the opposite that's right men and

19:40

women are more happy on average that when they're married men and women are more Wealthy on average when they're

19:47

married they have better savings they have better satisfaction in life they have less depression they're healthier

19:54

now there's probably individual situations that are different but the average across the board that is true

20:00

and it makes sense cuz that's something that God designed marriage to be is two are better than one they have a a better

20:06

return for their labor and so if our question if our if we're navigating and

20:11

our logic is I can't I I can't get married yet because I haven't become the

20:17

person I want to be yet to be married whatever that may be definition wise that identity then what you're saying is

20:22

is a a wife or a husband is going to hinder me from becoming that when in

20:27

reality they will most likely especially Believers when they're walking with Christ together are going to help each

20:35

other become more like what God wants them to be not what they want to be so

20:41

it's a it's a big deal I think we need to be asking ourselves the single men and women in this world who love God is

20:47

am I am I hindering God from doing what he wants through a spouse with me because I'm trying to ancillarity you

20:55

know build my self identity before I even find you know or say yes to that

21:00

spouse so I can I can hear all kinds of yeah but questions exploding in the in

21:06

the minds of young men don't worry guys we're gon to we're going to get to that we're going to get to those but I want to I want we will I I want to I want to

21:14

uh throw a curveball and and see and see what you think about this so there's a there's a feeling there's there's an

21:21

aphorism that I think would describe the the feeling that I think many men would be feeling the aphorism is if you want

21:27

to go fast go alone if you want to go far go together right there's a there's

21:33

a sense in that you know a man traveling alone can travel faster down the road

21:38

than if he were traveling with either another man or a woman or kids or something like that so what if a man

21:43

feels like well but during this time I can I feel like I can really go monk mode and grind it out and kind of like

21:50

make it to the top of that next Hill and then I can run up the hill and then when I get up the hill that's when I'll

21:56

that's when I'll do that what would you say to that guy um I would say that there's a a yes and

22:05

a no to that there's like a there's a reason it's valuable and there's a reason it's it's a

22:12

fallacy because if if in my situation I was you know I had a My First

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Girlfriend you know early you know adulthood and broke that off and that

22:26

was kind of my catalst of like I'm gonna not date not going to pursue I'm gonna

22:32

focus on my relationship with God and so I went into a season of like I'm because there was all this energy being put out

22:38

trying to figure out like who's my spouse looking and and it was drawing me and it was it it felt exhausting and so

22:45

I was like you know I'm going to do the opposite of that I'm going to say no to you know looking for a spouse right now

22:50

and I'm just going to focus my attention on growing in the Lord and becoming a husband becoming the kind of man that I

22:57

want to be for a future wife and that was about 3 years where I I wasn't I

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mean I had friends I had friends that were girls I spent time with lots of people I it's not like I was a Hermit

23:09

but I wasn't intentionally trying to put my eyes on anyone and pursue that and

23:14

and try relationships and whatever and then there was at the end of that three years there was a

23:20

something that shifted in my heart and I was like okay I I I want to start looking for a wife I want to be married

23:26

I want a wife so it wasn't like it was forever but there was definitely a a short season of me intentionally

23:33

focusing on my my walk with God but that's often not what people are doing when they remain

23:40

single they're often building their own identity apart from Marriage it's not

23:47

just I'm pursuing the Lord to get ready for marriage and then when he is ready

23:52

for me to start opening my heart up to that again I'm going to do that it's a different thing it's a control thing

23:59

where mine wasn't a control thing it was a intentional choice to take my eyes off of this over here and put it on God over

24:05

here but then there was a clear moment that I remember God was like like you

24:10

it's okay like start looking and I'm like okay and so I I had my eyes open doesn't mean I just started dating

24:15

everyone but I was like I'm going to be very intentional in my relationships for the purpose of looking for a wife um so

24:24

I I think there's should be there's nothing wrong with seasons of I'm going to go alone for the purpose of pursuing

24:31

Christ um but that for someone who doesn't have the gift of celibacy doesn't have the gift of of

24:38

singleness it shouldn't be forever it should be with a purpose of prepare me

24:43

for that wife that you're bringing to me or that you're going to you know help me be a better Seer you know a better

24:49

discerner a better um pursuer um and same for women so I think on one hand

24:56

it's you know yeah I can go alone and I'm going to go faster but you you might

25:01

run right past her right so it depends on you know is

25:06

your is your goal at the end of the day is your goal that I have a a little story talking about parenting um but is

25:14

your goal to become what Christ wants you to become or is your goal to become what you want you to be because a spouse

25:22

is going to get in the way of that 100% of the time if a spouse won't get in the way of you becoming what Christ wants

25:28

you to be but a spouse will get in the way of you becoming who you want to be and uh that's where you get a lot of the

25:36

conflict in marriage when they you rub up against each other and you're like I I want this and they want that and you

25:44

neither want the same thing and so that's hard but when uh before we had our first child before we got pregnant

25:49

with our first child we were both in a place where we didn't want any kids we're Christians we're married we loved

25:55

God but we also were very about our selfishness and we had a we had Hearts

26:04

against having kids and there was this opportunity that we were part of a

26:09

marriage Ministry um not leading it but we were just in a marriage Ministry in our church and there was a need for

26:14

someone to replace the pastor that was um doing that and so so I had been asked

26:19

to interm pastor this marriage Ministry

26:24

and I was like okay sure cuz like I I I a giting of teaching I can I can speak I

26:30

can share the the the not the things that are you know to get everyone on board and um but I'm sitting there and

26:36

I'm I I just go to the Lord after one of the nights that we met before I started doing it I was like God how am I

26:43

supposed to there's a bunch of people here more you know older than me married longer than me have children like how am

26:48

I supposed to do this I don't feel at all adequate

26:55

to to do this and I remember praying and I was like I just need to know like I I

27:02

don't I I feel like I don't even know enough of you and I I remember I didn't hear the audible voice of God but he

27:08

clearly was sharing with me he said if you want to know more of me he said

27:14

there's a side of me that you'll never be able to know unless you become a father and I was like huh and it was in

27:21

reference to wanting to you know lead well and and be able to understand and relate to the the other people in this

27:27

church and in this marriage Ministry and God in a single moment changed my heart from I

27:34

don't want kids that seems too hard that's not the right thing to I if I

27:39

want to know the father Heart Of God I need to become a father it was it was it was an instant

27:46

and what's crazy is God had worked on my wife at the same time and so when I went and told her what I said she's like I've

27:51

been feeling the same thing I was like crazy so there's times that like

27:57

marriage does something for us that um is very unique God designed it in a very

28:03

unique way that it it helps us become what Christ wants us to be he there's

28:10

things that we we can't experience and understand without it um it doesn't mean

28:16

that every single like I said there's a very rare occurence rare occurrence that Paul talks about where there are some

28:22

that are gifted with with singleness and all of they all they worry about is the

28:27

the the Lord and the work of the Lord and missionaries you know doing doing Mission work and there's there's plenty

28:33

of place for that but the majority of us need a spouse we go God wants to fill

28:40

the Earth with children who know him he wants husbands to learn um sacrifice and

28:48

unconditional love and he wants wives to learn submission and service and and compassion and how to raise children and

28:56

and he wants husbands to become men who teach their boys what men are and women

29:02

to teach their girls what women are and this is this was God's plan from the beginning to populate the Earth to make

29:10

government governments to is is the family unit and how it operates and so

29:16

just like God was like you want to know the you know the side of me that's a father and like as and you you've known

29:22

me as my child you know as a as a son but you don't understand what it means

29:28

to be a father unless you become a father you know you don't understand what it means to be a husband and to

29:36

lead a family unless you become a husband and uh I just had a a

29:42

encouraging conversation with my wife who I mean we had our sixth child and it's legit it could be hard it's a

29:48

struggle at times I bet you know not just keeping six children alive but

29:54

raising them to be wise discerning um Godly humans it's a that's it's

30:02

nearly impossible and I and I was explaining to I said you know because she was just saying this is

30:08

so hard and and I was like you know what it is I was like we're not enough we need Jesus to help us do this and then I

30:16

said I said that the most powerful and most successful by the world standards

30:21

people in the world often have failed in many ways or in every way in their

30:26

marriages and Families I was like so what that tells me is having a family is harder than start

30:33

starting a space exploration company it's harder than starting an electric car company it's harder than starting a multi-billion dollar company and running

30:40

it and having tens of thousands or millions of employees like having a healthy family is the hardest thing to

30:48

do on the planet being a husband and and dealing with the heart of a of a woman

30:54

and still being a Godly Man and then also still managing friendships and relationships and then all of these

31:01

things and then and then not at the same time leading them to Christ and then still dealing with your own sin and your

31:07

own uh you know uh confusions and the lies that you you believe and feelings

31:12

of failure and all of those things and then still trying to move forward and create something that's valuable and

31:19

worthy that's it's the hardest thing it's the hardest thing in the whole world thank you for saying that um thank

31:27

you for for everything that you just said uh that is that is a clip that I I hope people will go and back up and just

31:34

listen to that entire last segment because I think it contains a lot of very wise advice particularly for young

31:40

men and aspirational fathers to hear to come out of um what might be unconscious

31:47

selfish attitudes it is very easy to remain a single man and to only have to care for one guy it is easy to be able

31:55

to manage your own time or not manage your own time or manage your own money or not manage your own money when you're

32:01

responsible to no one and and not accountable to the person sleeping next

32:06

to you who sees things very differently and and sees into and through you as well because men and women are quite

32:12

insightful about each other and so it's easy uh it's very easy for for men to hide and remain in kind of a boyish

32:19

State and avoid stepping into learning about the father Heart Of God learning

32:25

that true side of God's character you know by staying a boy and not becoming a man and it's also it's also very timely

32:32

um you're you you seem like a very smart man so you're probably not on X are you on X at all I am on X actually oh okay I

32:40

mainly use um we post our prayers on there but I I mainly use it for news Okay so so perhaps you've seen that that

32:47

Mr Andrew Tate is uh is back in the news have you seen that uh yes I periodically see stuff about Andrew Tate yes yeah so

32:54

he so particularly him but really this whole dialogue about about uh masculinity by the way it doesn't mean

32:59

you're not smart because you're onx just wanted to clarify I'm not doing it backhanded so um so he's popped into the

33:06

news again I don't know probably because he started some political party in the UK I'm not sure but so uh particularly

33:12

in in uh in my world of Christianity the dialogue has exploded the past say 48 72

33:17

hours about masculinity and what it means to be a man and Andrew Tade and why he has this appeal to young men and

33:24

and I I wanted to highlight that particularly because there have been several very very valid very powerful

33:30

and I think even devastating critiques of him it's like how can you talk about what it means to be a man as if as if

33:36

you're an authority figure if you haven't stepped into the most basic responsibility of being a man which all

33:44

throughout history has been recognized to be a husband a man to one woman and a a father to more than one child right a

33:52

child or one child or more right how can you talk about what it means to be a man when really you're just a giant

33:58

overgrown boy with your toys and cigars and there's nothing wrong with fast cars and a and a good cigar however isn't

34:04

there this other side of what it means to be a man that it seems that he's maybe he sired children but that doesn't

34:11

make him a father right and he's certainly not married and so I think what you everything that you just said right there speaks so powerfully into

34:19

something that I think culture has suppressed in men to some extent I want I do want to get into that but that also

34:25

men suppress in themselves and let's not we we shouldn't be pointing all the fingers like culture did this the

34:30

postwar consensus whatever right no it's like you've got some sin Bro you've got some fear and some and some hiding that

34:37

you're doing as well and and men should men must be called to overcome that

34:42

within themselves and so I heard in what you said a very powerful call to do that

34:48

yeah and you're you're right there there's you know people like Andrew T there's a there's he's not the only one there's a there's a bunch of people that

34:55

are are feeding into the false masculinity and there's a I think it's

35:03

in in a way it's it's two things it's feeding into our natural

35:08

flesh there's this strong desire in us to be men to be masculine but then

35:14

there's a on this on the second thing there's a desire to have no responsibility and to only care for

35:19

ourselves that's the the sinful flesh like you said you can run faster like I can I can spend all the time getting

35:25

exercise and and eating well and and starting my career and Building Wealth and investing and I it's so much easier

35:32

to do all those things over here but it also I think it's also the reason it's

35:39

so attractive is not just because our our sinful flesh wants that uh the no responsibility the good looks the the

35:46

the rockard ABS the you know the homes and the cars and all the that that

35:51

lifestyle but it's it's also in a way it's a it's a retaliation

35:58

to the current culture over the last you know however many decades of um the

36:04

emasculating sense that men get from culture and so I think there's a lot of

36:11

men that are gravitating toward that because it's a way of fighting back

36:18

against how they've been made to feel like not a man so the the fighting back part is is really interesting um because

36:26

I think a lot of people really lean into that argument when talking about him it's like oh this is you know I like

36:32

Andrew Tate because he's pushing back on what what do you the long housee the

36:38

gynocracy the gynocratic social order there are dozens of feminism feminism

36:43

exactly yeah there are dozens of different labels for all of this and like okay like I get it you know I I

36:51

came up and into and through the manosphere as well I get the outrage and I've studied it and I and I understand

36:57

understand it but you know at a certain point even even anger becomes boyish a

37:03

responsibility like it's so much easier to get super angry on the internet at whoever it is this week you know this

37:10

week it's whatever it's feminism and last week it was you know the H1B thing over the immigrants and the week before

37:15

that the week before that it's so much easier even to do that than it is to say you know what I'm going to delete these

37:21

apps off my phone and I'm going to lean into scripture and into prayer and go to church and I don't care whether you

37:29

think your your pastor is masculine enough it doesn't matter the Bible doesn't come with an asterisk on the

37:34

cover of it that says only read this and only go to church if you know your your pastor can deadlift enough right and so

37:41

like this boyish irresponsibility that men just get sucked into I think is rather than slow

37:47

gradual change it's dramatic Escape I'd rather get outraged about this today and fight back against whatever it is like

37:54

feminists talk about the patriarchy you know and and the the the manosphere guys or whatever talk about feminism it's

38:00

like well what about you bro like what are you actually doing to live into who and what God has called you to be like

38:06

right now you are a combination of your both your choices and your circumstances you have limited control over your

38:13

circumstances like we don't get to choose what era we're born in we don't get to choose you know a lot of other

38:18

Dynamics right but you still get to make choices in relation to those circumstances that move you closer to

38:25

who God has called you to be take you backwards or get you nowhere and that's

38:30

the part that's the part like I get the anger but like you still have to act

38:35

well and I like I said when I was saying how I I almost didn't have any answers stepping into trying to become a husband

38:41

figuring out you dating and what that looked like I don't think many people have answers on what it means to be a

38:47

man and so okay they're we're naturally going to gravitate as a as a human being

38:54

as a creature that God made towards something that's going to feel like that answer and as John 1 I mean not John 1

39:02

um I think it's Romans 1 and 2 talks about that we we trade worship for the

39:07

creation for the we trade we worship the creation rather than the Creator correct

39:13

and so we're going to constantly look for in creation that thing that we feel like is

39:18

going to fulfill that answer rather than the Creator himself who's going to guide us to the correct answer and so that's

39:24

right um that often leads us to Define things like success or manhood or you

39:30

know whatever you you name it with our own definition and so Andrew Tate you

39:35

know he there's a bunch of stuff that he said before that I'm like oh that's you know that lines with my conservative

39:41

views right there's a lot he says that doesn't align with my Christian views uh

39:47

but at the end of the day you know how are we defining success are we defining it the way the world wants to Define it

39:52

or we Define it the way Christ wants to Define it and so I I it's it's it's a hard thing I my whole life I've

39:59

struggled with this idea of like what's my identity what you know am I a man and

40:05

the the more I get older and the more I have children and the more I you know go through hard things with my wife and at

40:10

the end of the day I'm I have this conversation talking about how this is the hardest thing we'll ever do I just

40:16

think you know I'm doing something hard I'm doing something that's um is is so worth it

40:23

and worthy and like seeing my kids become individuals and have their own thoughts and have their own ideas and my

40:30

son pulling out scripture out of nowhere to tell you know and then them coming to us when me and my wife are having a you

40:36

know a conflict and saying hey have you prayed about it let's pray and and encouraging us to do the right

40:44

thing in the spirit I'm like man that's that's amazing and so I would I would want that for anyone and it doesn't mean

40:51

they're going to be perfect at it doesn't mean it's going to be easy no in the fact it's it's going to be the hardest thing they ever do it's going to be the most rewarding thing they ever do

41:00

if they continue to you know follow Christ in in it all take that next right

41:06

step because no one told me what steps to take no one showed me the right path we we almost all of us have probably

41:13

terrible examples from our own parents because they're also Sinners and they also weren't shown the way and right um

41:19

and so we're we're constantly trying to find out you know what is success what is manhood and and it all comes down to

41:26

is what you know if our identity is found in Christ then we're going to go to Christ for those answers if our identity is found in ourselves or in the

41:33

world then we're going to we're going to scour the internet Forum um I was you were talking about Andrew Tate on

41:38

Twitter and there's another there's a an account I don't follow Andre Tate but there's an account I do follow called I think it's Giga based dad or something

41:45

like that or Giga based husband I think I may have seen that one I I love it he posts the funniest things but he posts

41:52

like you know this is real success and it shows a you know a woman who's actually a friend of ours who has I think she's got like nine kids with one

41:58

on the way or something like that um and I'm like yeah that is Success because

42:03

and then he says like you know you want to be a radical in 2025 it's like you know get married have kids and go to

42:09

church it's like yeah like that that is radical it's radical to you know when we

42:15

go places and and people see how many kids we have and but then they it's more than that they see that they're well

42:20

behaved and they come they like you kids are so behaved I'm like well takes a lot of energy at home to figure that out

42:28

like it's not it doesn't just happen it's not like they're just perfect kids they're they're not they they're kids

42:33

they they make they have issues and struggles and uh we have lots of conversations lots of Bible time lots of

42:39

sitting down lots of you know all of those things to get there and but the world looks at it it's like that's

42:45

crazy you know you just you know you just threw your life I'm like no I this is this is my life this is what I want

42:53

didn't always want it but I've learned that it's the it's the best thing ever and even all my decisions like with

43:00

business and it's not around like making more money it's like what what can I build that I can leave to my kids if

43:06

they want it you know what what it's it's all coming down to like Legacy and handing down as prover I think it's

43:13

Proverbs that says you know a wise man leaves an inheritance to his children's children not just his children but his

43:18

children's children like I'm you know my inheritance I want to leave most importantly is an inheritance of of

43:25

Salvation the gospel I want to I want to point them to Jesus that so I want that to keep going from generation to

43:31

generation but I also am trying to you know best I can figure out how to get

43:36

have something to hand to them if if they want it they may not want it but it'd be cool to have it to give to them

43:42

if they wanted it yeah I I I appreciate what you said about leading your family to Christ

43:49

because I think that might actually be the hardest thing on earth in a sense

43:55

well because the way is the the gate is narrow right like go through the narrow gate it it's it is a very narrow gate in

44:02

fact sometime like if you read uh Pilgrim's Progress by John John bunan you know that classic story is what's

44:09

that yeah we we've as a family gone through it a bunch of times yeah so you know like that story is exact is about

44:16

exactly how narrow the gate is right over the course of the lifetime of a Believer and so you know I've done hard

44:22

things I've climbed mountains and sailed oceans and you know I've I've done that stuff like physically hard literally

44:28

dangerous like life at risk stuff and I don't mean to underplay that and there are men that do that for a living right

44:34

with bullets are flying at them targeted at them right and I don't mean to underplay all that and there is

44:41

something to be said for being a man who can lead other souls to heaven right

44:49

through the narrow gate over the course of 18 more or more years actually really

44:54

their entire life or your entire life as it as it pertains to them like how long are you alive and getting yourself there

45:00

as well that is the kind of that is the kind of task that requires daily discipline daily focus and you can do it

45:08

from when you can do it from the beginning until the very end it's not something that is going to naturally go

45:13

down over time it's something that increases over time or God willing should and like not to underplay the

45:20

significance of the weight of that responsibility that in a sense never ends like you can launch your kids off

45:26

you know in a good Direction they can you know whatever go to college or they can get married and set off on that road

45:31

but again if you as a husband and father and leader should fall off at some point later after they're gone you know that

45:37

can in in some sense can compromise their own example and there are lots of stories about that and so I think we I

45:44

think as as Christians we have an added like the secular world doesn't know how to think in those terms it doesn't know

45:50

God it doesn't see Heaven it's not something that it's oriented towards but as Christians we're obligated to think

45:56

in those terms as fathers we're obligated to think as in those terms and that's what makes me a little disappointed by the way so many

46:03

Christians are so excit Christian men are so excited to follow Godless you know in many ways Antichrist leaders

46:10

like well what does a man look like he looks like that no he doesn't look like that at all right that that's what a male looks like but does is he going to

46:16

lead anyone to anywhere other than off the cliff no so why are you following

46:22

him and that's the part that I find you know sad we we talk about this in our

46:28

book marriage after God uh the which which I have right here marriage after God available now on Amazon it is yeah

46:37

and uh thank you for that um we T we talk about the just the you know the

46:43

stepping stone of of growing into manhood and you know marriage being a huge part of that again that doesn't

46:48

mean single men who are in Ministry aren't men but it's a natural and

46:54

ordinary normal way that God brings men into maturity is through marriage and

47:00

but it also becomes a uh a starting place if you look in in Timothy and

47:07

Titus Paul's instruction on how to choose elders and deacons in the church

47:13

starts with men who are of one wife the wife is

47:19

is is is loved and is also respected has children so those and then he says he's

47:26

like so cuz how can a man um want to manage the household of God if he cannot

47:33

manage his own home that's right so our homes like you were just talking about

47:39

being able to lead my CH if I can't lead my children to know the Lord what

47:44

business do I have going away from my house and going and doing that with full-grown adults who have a lifetime of

47:52

Brokenness a lifetime of Lies a lifetime of of of things in that you have to work

47:57

through when I can't sit down with my child who's having an emotional breakdown and help him to understand

48:03

what the scripture says and what What God Says and What God Says of him and who he is and how can I go and tell

48:10

another man how to respect someone and love someone and to treat someone as um their own body if I'm not doing that to

48:17

my wife if I'm not loving her as Christ loved the church giving himself of her washing her by the water with the word

48:24

that she may be presented to him spotless and blameless and it's not not talking about me presenting my wife to him it's about Christ presenting the

48:31

church to God spotless and blameless but if I can't be if I'm not doing that in my

48:37

house with my wife if if I can't walk with her in forgiveness and understanding if I can't walk learn patience and even most of the time

48:43

repentance I messed up I'm so sorry I'm I need to change in this

48:49

area I'm going to change if I can't do that in my home what business do I have

48:54

going and doing that in Church um there's a quote I have in the book that says Don't sacrifice your marriage on

49:02

the altar of ministry don't sacrifice your family on altar of ministry this quote unquote Ministry I'm doing the Lord's work over here but I refuse to do

49:10

the Lord's work in my home and that's backwards that's absolutely backwards

49:15

because I have six children who are to be disciples in my own home if I cannot disciple them what business do I have

49:22

leaving my house and going discipling other men at all I have no business I'm

49:28

sacrificing my children for the sake of someone else's life now God loves that person and that's me saying God I I

49:35

don't think you're capable of bringing someone else into that man's life to disciple him I need to do it I don't trust you to do it so I need to leave my

49:41

family and and let them flounder over here now the point is we should be able to do both I should be in my house I

49:48

should be practicing those things here daily and then I have that that energy and that overflow that is going to go

49:55

into other people's lives so it shouldn't be an Andor it should be an it should be a an and like I do this here

50:03

so that I can do it there I I have an example here so that my example holds up there I'm practicing what I preach here

50:11

so that when I go preach it there I have I'm like you know I just had this conversation with my son and they're

50:16

like oh wow you know we can't separate our ministry from our families

50:24

our families are our they're our closest and nearest Neighbors and so if we're to love our neighbors as ourselves if we're

50:29

to to minister to our closest neighbor and like the Good Samaritan story Jesus

50:34

ask who's the neighbor and they're like well I guess the one that helped like there you go so it our responsibility is

50:41

definitely by proximity so our most responsible energy or what we're most responsible for is what's closest to us

50:48

it's our wife our children our church our neighbors and then it trickles out

50:54

from there always it doesn't start out in Africa and then come back this way it starts the other way right right well do

51:01

you want to spend a moment talking about your book marriage after God that which you wrote with your wife and sort of

51:06

what the book is about and the inspiration behind it and you want to talk about this for just a moment because I I have wanted uh men and women

51:13

to know about this book because it's a it's a yeah please jump in well it it came out of um my wife and

51:20

I years ago did a a marriage Retreat we called it marriage after God and we had

51:25

12 couples come it was super difficult we never done a retreat before we haven't done 12 couples that's a lot of

51:32

people yeah and uh but it was awesome and that the curriculum that we came up

51:38

for that kind of turned into this book and so we so even though it's not something that we continued to do we're

51:44

like you know people loved this this was awesome let's turn into a book and so that's where marriage after God came

51:50

from and essentially the the premise of the entire book is what we were just talking about that your marriage is is

51:56

your first Ministry and not seeing it as seeing ministry as something that happens

52:01

elsewhere or not seeing ministry as something that is like got this specific category of like well worship leader

52:07

executive Pastor um you know you name the handful of Ministries that many

52:13

people think are the only Ministries and so because there's this this fallacy that we have as Believers is like well

52:20

um I'm not that so therefore I'm not in Ministry and actually this is a it's a

52:27

detriment that many people in quote unquote Ministry say is like oh when

52:32

you're when when if God calls you to Ministry then you're like when you say

52:37

that what you're saying is is I'm not in ministry right if I'm not doing what you're doing and we wanted to break that

52:44

mold and say you know the Bible actually teaches that every single person even

52:51

who you would think is the weaker link the weaker person in the church it says

52:57

they're indispensable that's right so you no minister no person who's in quote

53:04

unquote full-time Ministry should tell anyone that they're not in Ministry if

53:10

they believe in Jesus Christ if they are born again Christian they are ministers of the Gospel the Bible calls us priests

53:16

all of us not just this guy on stage not just this person you know behind the you

53:22

know the computer screen over here we're in Ministry we we are ministers of the

53:28

Gospel each one of us and it's been a it's been a a a very bad thing I think

53:34

in general across the board and it pro I don't know when it started maybe back when Constantine instituted the National

53:40

Church May yeah I don't know if but we're trying to break that and say you

53:45

know you are in Ministry if you if all you ever did was minister to your home and your your wife and your children

53:52

that's that you're going to be told well done good and faithful servant you're going to stand before the Lord and be like I gave you this woman and I gave

53:58

you these children and you were faithful with them but what happens is when you start thinking that way when you start

54:04

seeing your life and saying oh I'm a believer I'm in Ministry and oh I have this wife I'm

54:11

she's someone I minister to oh I have these children I minister to them oh I have a neighbor I minister to them and

54:17

so we talk about in the book we talk about one of our favorite things in the book is um the tool belt and the tool

54:23

belt is every Christian has it and it's what God gives each one of us it's our unique tools that he's equipped each one

54:30

of us with by the power of His Holy Spirit and his guiding in our life and all the experiences that we've gone

54:35

through to be used for his glory and uh so we we in the the tool about there's

54:40

experiences like will you have experiences that I don't have you mentioned selling I don't know if you

54:46

actually sell or if you're in military or whatever but i' I've been on a boat I've never gone across the ocean um uh

54:54

our testimony every sing person has their own testimony of how God to took them from the the muck and the Meer and

55:00

and put them on Solid Ground how Christ met them and did a work in their life

55:06

and they received Jesus uh the other thing is our gifts and our talents we

55:11

each one of us some you know I I can podcast and we write books that's that's a gift and a talent but that's not

55:17

everyone's gift and talent like I'm not the only person that's ministering to the world through my books like my books have not reached even a percent of the

55:23

world but there are people that have other gifts like we talked about that book um there are people that are really good at baking and I'm not saying that's

55:30

the only gift that someone might have but some people have a really excellent gift of baking they may not even have a business with it but they we had friends

55:37

that dropped off you know they would always they would drop off a a pastry to in a letter and and remind us that

55:43

they're praying for us um some people are really good you know ho you know with hospitality and

55:49

hosting and cooking and bringing in their neighbors and and sitting down and having a a delicious meal and using that

55:56

has an opportunity to tell them about Jesus um and then the last one in the tool belt um is resources we all have

56:02

different level of resources that God's trusted to us and so we tell Believers

56:08

this this the story of this book is you're in Ministry here's what God gave you to minister with and you don't need

56:15

to see yourself as inadequate stop seeing yourself as like well I'm not them so therefore I'm not in Ministry no

56:22

you are break that take the glasses off take the blindfold off you you are if

56:27

you believe in Jesus if you're if you're a born- again Christian you're a part of his building you're a part of his work

56:34

you you are what he's doing in the world and your family is what he's doing in the world and he wants to work in us and through us and so and we use we use the

56:42

marriage as a as a catalyst to talk about this concept and so it starts with

56:47

your spouse and then your children and then trickles its way out into the world and it's how God has always intended it

56:54

from from day one well I should say day six right I mean that's that it sort of

57:02

brings the depth of responsibility into into sharp Focus

57:07

like you're no longer just a you're no longer just a man you have you have a Ministry I remember the first time um my

57:14

friends who baptized me you know they they were asking me about my podcast and they referred to it as a Ministry I'm

57:20

like I haven't opened a Ministry yet I'm not Ministry I'm not min hist and I said

57:27

that like well no that's that's just you know sort of uh that's what you're doing for the world that's how you're how

57:32

you're bring the gospel you know to the world or that's how you're ministering to people it's not that you're a priest

57:38

or you're a pastor or anything like that it's that's just the term for that and it was like that's very that that was a

57:43

very interesting Little Nugget they gave me because it helped me think about what I do in a in a new way and I think for

57:51

believers to think about all of their responsibilities in the world and which

57:56

includes at home and out in out in the world as Ministry in in a maybe not in a

58:02

formal sense but in the sense like this is your opportunity to bring the gospel

58:07

out you know and to embody it in in a fallen world and inside the walls of

58:12

your home and outside at work and the other other spheres that you move through I think it it it it creates a

58:19

greater sense of responsibility to behave and to think and to move in a Godly manner when you when you think of

58:26

it that way yeah and and it's true it's if you think of we were just talking to the

58:32

kids this morning about um that we were talking about the word dispersion and uh there you know

58:39

God dispersed the people at the Tower of Babel because he wanted them to spread around the world and he confused their

58:44

languages but there is a dispersion that happened in the New Testament after the resurrection of Christ that when the

58:51

persecution was just increasing increasing in the church and with the Jews that Christians were being spread

58:57

out they could they had to flee they were being pushed away they were being killed and so there was all these Christians fleeing away from Israel and

59:05

from you know Roman occupation and that was how God spread

59:11

the word he he put his word in them and then spread them out and so these

59:18

Christians over in Asia where these people in Asia had never even heard of

59:23

Jesus this thing was taking place you know know thousands of miles away and they're they're just living their lives

59:28

doing what they do and all of a sudden this Refugee family shows up and they're like oh we we had to flee because we

59:35

believe in this man that died and rose again from the dead and they're like what and then you have this you have

59:41

this that and you have this another family that got sent to you know Italy and then another and you have all these

59:47

people now filled with the Holy Spirit and a little bit of the knowledge of God

59:54

because the Bible was even you know in the hands of people for a hundred years or so after Jesus was ascended into

1:00:01

heaven and so you see these this was God's plan from the beginning that his word would

1:00:07

be spread not by professionals not by people in professional quote unquote Ministry

1:00:14

which there are those people I'm not putting that down like there's like the Bible talks about this you know supporting your your those who teach you

1:00:21

and sharing all good things with them and some and those that teach are deserving of a double portion and those are good things but that's not that

1:00:28

wasn't God's intention for the spreading of the Gospel that was the spreading of the Gospel his intention was the church

1:00:35

at large you me anyone who names the name of Jesus and us being in our place

1:00:40

so will you have an influence in your in your location where you're at not just online but in your own wherever you live

1:00:47

you have an influence that I will never be able to have because I'm not there I have no proximity to Will and Will's who

1:00:55

will has proximity to and so God has his church where you're at God has his

1:01:01

church where I'm at and that's his plan and you know what if again I go I go

1:01:07

back to this but if people recognize that their children are part of the

1:01:12

church and their disciples and that's how we're raising them the church is growing my intention is like to raise up

1:01:19

six children who know the Lord like okay there's six people in the body of Christ now and so

1:01:27

you have not just multiplication but fruitfulness in that multiplication so

1:01:33

that happens in our homes with our with the way we see our our families and the growth of them and then it happens in our lives when we recognize like my my

1:01:42

career or my job or my these my neighbors these are not just people here for me to avoid or have

1:01:49

a good conversation with but they're hopefully people that will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven through my

1:01:55

influence their life you know I may just be a planter or I may just be a waterer but my prayer is that the Lord brings an

1:02:01

increase in anyone's lives around me I I love that that way of thinking

1:02:08

that we're called to care for we're called to Steward we're called to Shepherd more than what might be obvious

1:02:17

that there are opportunities for us to to guide and to lead that again men are

1:02:22

called to step into you're called to step into that role you might not be called into the role of a deacon at your

1:02:29

church or an elder you know that that might not be that might not be you but

1:02:34

certainly there are there are ways in which you can step into that role every day if you choose to approach

1:02:42

it that way you choose to approach whatever whatever you do whether it could be your bowling league you know

1:02:47

maybe maybe you're very passionate about that and you have some leadership role at your bowling league that is the

1:02:53

opportunity to Faithfully steward and Shepherd people now it doesn't mean you're going to get up at the next

1:02:59

tournament and you're going to give a sermon you know but it's the opport it's the opportunity to plant seeds it's the

1:03:05

opportunity to embody and and witness as the gospel and you bring that home with you as well and it it never turns off

1:03:12

there's never a moment there's never a moment where in a in a man's life or in a woman's life for that matter where

1:03:19

it's like okay like uh we're in a free-for-all sin period for the next hour you know God's going to look other

1:03:26

way it doesn't work that way well and I I think there's a kind of going back to this idea of manhood and like this

1:03:32

boyishness of not wanting to step into any responsibility this fear of like well I don't want to be responsible for

1:03:39

that you know so if I'm not I'm not the pastor I don't need to be responsible for anyone's salvation or anyone's

1:03:47

knowledge of God I'm I'm just me I I go to work and I come home and I then I come yeah I love to receive and I love

1:03:52

to hear you know the message and I feel good I'm just going to practice being a good person and but there's a

1:04:00

responsibility I want to encourage all your listeners to go read first and

1:04:06

second Timothy and Titus and look at the qualifications for an elder like again this not everyone's

1:04:13

going to be an elder not everyone's going to be a deacon not not everyone's going to have those official roles in

1:04:18

the church official okay but go read the qualifications and tell me which ones

1:04:23

are not good to be walking in whether you're an elder or not tell me which ones you're like oh I can be a drunkard

1:04:30

because I'm not an elder oh I can be I can um you know be given to ill-gotten

1:04:35

gains and trying to be a pursuer of of wealth because I'm not an elder oh I can

1:04:42

have children that you know don't need to know I don't my children don't need to know the Lord I don't need to

1:04:47

disciple them well because I'm not an elder you know you look at all the all the qualifications of an elder and there

1:04:53

are things that we men should be walking in regardless of their position in any church anywhere and so it's it just I I

1:05:02

tend to point people that and be like well you may not be in any official role

1:05:08

in any church but you are officially a minister in the body of Christ and so you better be thinking

1:05:15

about that hard good and hard about how you're walking uh the Bible's very clear

1:05:21

about that so I can hear out there in the internet all the guys listening saying like Okay

1:05:28

well you know you and Aaron have banged on men you've talked about responsibility and you've talked about

1:05:34

you know growing up and you've taken shots at my heroes and you know

1:05:40

accountability all yeah okay fine hear it and they were probably saying well okay so what about the women I look

1:05:47

around this is them speaking I look around and I see feminism and I see girls putting off marriage and they're

1:05:53

into online dating and them men are disposable and you know they don't follow the Bible and they're leaving

1:06:00

churches and and I I I I want to acknowledge all of the that topic set which I think articulates very real

1:06:06

concerns that men have and I I want to start talking about the female side of this equation because it is true that a

1:06:13

a man's income I think this is I think you mentioned earlier that's been statistically proven that a man will

1:06:18

earn more with a wife to care for at home to take care of and manage the home front than two than two working couples

1:06:25

will earn together right and I've I've seen this in various families that I've met you know I met the strangest thing

1:06:32

you know a multi- multi-million dollar millionaire father very giant mansion

1:06:37

Etc private plane like the guy the guy was set his wife had stayed home to

1:06:43

raise their their uh their three kids and the wife had made this sacrifice the

1:06:51

husband had you know gone from a low-level salesman to the CEO of ay which he founded and the wife was

1:06:58

raising the daughters to be feminists and have their own

1:07:03

careers and it was like yeah exactly so so this is a real thing and so I want to

1:07:09

speak into a little bit a little bit about this as well because particularly your books um they're not written by

1:07:15

Aaron Smith they're written by Aaron and Jennifer Smith so clearly you found you found a wife six kids you've mentioned

1:07:22

who's on board with this or you've created this together together so I want to talk a little bit about the the the

1:07:28

female side of the equation as well and and hopefully speak some reality and also some hope and men and give some

1:07:34

guidance to the women who are listening also um I'll say this that wherever

1:07:40

there are women and wherever there are Christian women there's going to be marriage material I'm just going to say

1:07:46

that and I think we need to um change our

1:07:51

expectations because I think we set ourselves up with wrong expectations

1:07:57

that are going to shift and change uh after marriage and so that's one thing

1:08:05

but on the women's side someone once told me um read your own mail and so the

1:08:12

point is is you know we like to as husbands look at you know Proverbs 20 uh

1:08:18

Proverbs not Proverbs Ephesians 5:22 see and we like to go as hey wives

1:08:24

look what Ephesians 22 says say subit to your husbands and everything that's not my mail God's

1:08:32

wrote that to wives wives are to read that wives are to look at that and they're to uh submit themselves to the

1:08:40

Lord in that as they obey it that's their male it's not my job to go tell my

1:08:46

wife what their male says and read it for her I need to read my mail husbands likewise love your wives as Christ loved

1:08:52

the church that's my mail and so I just wanted to start with saying um I

1:08:59

don't have uh much of a a I don't know what the terminology is but my intention

1:09:05

is not to try and convince any woman what kind of woman she needs to be she's

1:09:10

to seek the Lord the Bible's very clear about what a Godly woman looks like and

1:09:16

so she gets to go in the word of God and she gets to submit herself before the Lord as I would tell any man to do and

1:09:22

say Lord am I becoming and operating the the woman like the

1:09:27

woman you want me to be that's what she gets to do and the the the word is not unclear at all and and I also say this

1:09:35

that there is out of all of the Bible gosh what 20 verses geared towards

1:09:43

women on how they should be behave and then the rest of the Bible is men how

1:09:48

should men behave right so uh there's that um a lot of what we're seeing in

1:09:54

the world is because of men being boys I'm not blaming everything on men I'm just saying men

1:10:01

not leading well um husbands not loving

1:10:07

their wives well and then women these wives becoming angry and bitter and saying I want something different for my

1:10:13

daughter to protect her from this kind of man and so then they they lead their

1:10:18

daughters in that way and so my I would have an encouragement for any of the older women older wives um that are that

1:10:25

listen to this podcast to recognize that they have a major role um Titus talks

1:10:31

about this and um uh these older women uh leading younger women to be

1:10:39

Godly women and to love their husbands and to to to teach well it says and so

1:10:46

we need um older men to do the same thing we need Elder men and Elder women

1:10:51

to recognize that they're not irrelevant as the culture has made them feel that they're more relevant than ever

1:10:57

because we need the wisdom and we need the history and we need the the tenure and we need the the dedication and the

1:11:03

faithfulness of these older men and women who love God have walked out their their faith over the history of their

1:11:10

marriages to find these young women and say what are you doing this is this is

1:11:17

right this is what's right here's what you should look for here's how you should behave and um and encourage them

1:11:25

in what's right and so I think we're missing a lot of that in our culture I don't think for a fact we're missing a

1:11:33

lot of that we were all raised I don't know how old you are but I'm I'm I just turned 40 last April and I

1:11:40

just grow up and I had I had a few men in my life that uh spoke into my life and mentored

1:11:46

me but I'm just looking back and I'm like where are all the older men like

1:11:52

they all they all got older and they're like I want to retire and I don't want to focus on anything instead of seeing themselves like I have a Ministry to all

1:11:59

these younger men and then we are also told that old is old news and we we need

1:12:04

to we we want youth pastors that are our age and our peers we want leaders that

1:12:10

are just like us rather than looking to the older Generations looking to the the the people that have walked out

1:12:16

Faithfully for decades Generations we've we've

1:12:21

substituted um Elders for peers and I just I think that's been a detriment to

1:12:28

our society in a big way thank you for saying that oh my

1:12:33

goodness that has been something that I've observed since long before I came

1:12:39

into the Christian world just in the world of of of men's men's work you know

1:12:45

men's Retreats stuff like that what one of the things about going into those environments again this is long before I

1:12:50

was a Christian one of the things about going into those environments is that there were who were Elders meaning these

1:12:57

were older men you know 50 60 plus who carried themselves with a sense of

1:13:03

Gravitas that you felt this is an older man right who has lived who has achieved

1:13:10

and who has wisdom to pass on and isn't going to tolerate me being a boy or me being irresponsible or anyone like that

1:13:17

and the weight and the gravity that lent to the proceedings was like this has been missing where are the older men and

1:13:26

when I say older I mean 65 60 65 plus right genuinely legitimately they've

1:13:31

lived they've internalized they've digested and they've metabolized life and they've made something out of it and

1:13:38

they're going to show up and they're going to take control of the situation one of the one of the stories that I

1:13:45

always tell or sort of one of the observations I always make about men is that you know young men get so fired up

1:13:51

and think that they're super powerful and they're the most powerful thing in the universe and I'm like okay let me

1:13:56

show you the limits of that so imagine that you have a line listeners have probably heard me say this before so

1:14:02

imagine you have a line of like Braveheart Warriors like on the side one side of the field their faces are

1:14:07

painted and they're howling you know what I mean they got their they've got their swords and they're ready to do a a

1:14:13

charge across the battlefield okay they're all fired up right you have to there are two things two things to think

1:14:20

about one if you were to take a beautiful woman shoeless in a long flowy

1:14:25

dress and just walk her across the battlefield in front of them you'll watch all of them just go all that

1:14:33

energy will just will just bleed out right just it'll just shut off the other

1:14:38

situation though is you take a WIS and old man 85 90 years old with a walking

1:14:44

stick and he just crutches you know with his bad leg and kind of withered body

1:14:50

out into the middle of the field and just looks at all the men just looks at

1:14:55

all of them I don't approve of any of you you'll watch them all shut down and turn around and go home where are those

1:15:02

men those men are not around and they haven't been around for a while and and and I I appreciate your observation as

1:15:09

well that there are no older women and that I think is probably the one of the larger problems that isn't discussed is

1:15:15

you know whatever may have happened three or four generations back with someone's dad as a result of feminism

1:15:21

fine I still do believe that women you know from the 19 the baby boo regeneration onwards essentially they

1:15:26

made their choices you know the the the wealthy family that I talked about earlier the dad was a lovely man very

1:15:33

kind very gracious very generous and the the wife was still discipling her daughters to go their to go their own

1:15:40

way and had no reason to do so she was she seemed to be quite upset about the sacrifices she had made and didn't want

1:15:46

her own daughters to make those sacrifices for you know generational wealth so I I I do want to highlight

1:15:53

that women have made their own choices to abdicate in their roles of training the younger Generations both men and

1:16:00

women have and not just the Baby Boomers that's echoing now down through the

1:16:05

generations yeah and I I also want to point out there are older men and older

1:16:10

women that are doing this correct and I want to ask them to continue to do it but I also want to

1:16:17

call out any older men or women that are listening and say this is something that you should be doing that's right and if

1:16:23

you don't feel qualified if you don't feel adequate um first of all we all feel that way

1:16:30

always I don't not at all but maybe maybe there's just there's

1:16:35

a way we're walking that makes us feel inadequate like we're not dedicating our life to the Lord we're not walking with

1:16:41

him we're not abiding in the vine you know as a as a branch who needs to be

1:16:47

you know provided all the sustenance to make fruit and so we we just we need to

1:16:53

we need to see that I just I've been praying that God would just invigorate I'm just I'm praying for my church you

1:16:58

know I pray that God invigorates and revives the men on my church and myself and just fills us with just more of his

1:17:07

spirit and a desire to not just raise our families to know God but to lift each other up and to

1:17:13

serve each other and then to do that outside of our homes and um yeah so I I

1:17:19

I pray that I I would continue on so that as I get older I will see myself like that and

1:17:26

not take no gu you know just yeah call call call boys to be

1:17:31

men well you know how you know how older men get there how they get to that state

1:17:36

like you get to be an 85y old man who calls you know who calls boys out on their Guff and that they listen you know

1:17:42

how you know how you get there no by taking respons by taking

1:17:47

responsibility the man the man who has gotten to that stage is a man who

1:17:52

decided I'm going to take responsibility for everything around me like it's all

1:17:57

on my shoulders and I'm going to do that successfully and I'm not going to point fingers and I'm just going to take it on

1:18:03

I'm going to grow and by the time he gets to 85 years old the amount that he's accomplished and you can feel the

1:18:09

depth that life has carved in him it carves grooves in us right and you feel

1:18:15

that whether you see the scars or not in a man you can feel them and those are the those are the things that call young

1:18:22

men to attention but we don't have fathers anymore we have older brothers Andrew Tate is not a father no one in

1:18:29

the manosphere was a father they were all older brothers and it's very much like Lord of the Flies we're all being

1:18:34

we're we're a bunch of boys marooned on an island being raised by older boys

1:18:40

instead of a a father God the father and a father father and father figures coming in and and being like this is

1:18:47

just no this is not happening and I think that there's a real need for that absolutely we need we need more men to

1:18:54

be men so um I I did want to touch on

1:18:59

another one of your books we've talked about women a little bit you have 31 prayers for a f for my future wife you

1:19:05

also sent me 31 prayers for my future husband I gave that one as a gift because I don't need it so but uh let's

1:19:12

talk about this because we're we talked about you know the things that men can do to um to be ready to commit not to

1:19:20

wait but to be ready to commit we can we talked a little bit about men despairing a little a little bit about the marriage

1:19:25

options that are out there the lack of fathers lack of mother figures and all of that and yet we have God the Father

1:19:33

in Heaven who is there for us to pray and make supplications to and we can

1:19:39

pray for a wife but I found that the prayers in this book prayers for my 31 prayers for my future wife were were far

1:19:45

more specific and Powerful so maybe you can talk about this book and its companion as well yeah the the prayers

1:19:52

for future husband and wife books came out of exactly what I did and my wife

1:19:57

did before we were married um before I even met uh started courting her dating her and spending time with her I was

1:20:04

spent years writing prayers out for my future wife you know asking God you know

1:20:11

when is she going to be here praying when I was you know spending time with a woman that I was interested in a female

1:20:17

that I was interested in like Lord is this person the one is this who you have for me I like this about her I like this

1:20:24

about her but there's this and and so um when we when I proposed to her I read

1:20:29

some of the prayers that I had written out for my future wife and I and I told her I said you're that person you're the

1:20:35

answer to these prayers and so years later after starting this ministry um

1:20:40

our first books we our first prayer books that we came out with were for husband and wife you know of course because we were married and we were

1:20:46

writing for that audience um but when we came out with the future prayer books based off of this concept of like well

1:20:53

why don't we help people pray for their future spouse like we did um they quickly became our most

1:20:59

popular books and we've sold way more books of these it makes sense because there's a larger audience I think of

1:21:06

single people than there are you know trying to get a husband and a wife on the same page sadly is harder to get

1:21:13

than getting a single man who is interested in praying for his future wife or a single woman who is interested

1:21:18

in praying for her future husband but the fact that people are doing that is really awesome and we also if you I

1:21:25

don't know if you've read the book yet or not but um a lot of the prayers they MH have in a big way cause you to be

1:21:33

introspective about yourself because you start praying for something yes for this

1:21:38

future person you have not met yet probably and you're like wait a minute

1:21:43

am I that and so you start praying for yourself as well and you start asking yourself like am I'm praying that this

1:21:50

woman will be a good Steward and being staying out of debt am I you know spending up my credit card am I you know

1:21:57

setting myself up for failure for marriage where I'm going to be like hey we're married and guess what I have $45,000 and Consumer Debt good luck

1:22:04

helping me pay it off now like you start praying for these things for for another person and it very quickly becomes a

1:22:11

mirror and that's one of the powers of prayer you step into the throne room of

1:22:17

God and you're talking to him especially when we're praying about other people often the holy spirit's like great now

1:22:23

let's look at you you're like oh like I want that person to be you know nicer and more generous and the holy spirit's

1:22:30

like well what kind you know how generous are you how nice were you in this situation you in not in a

1:22:36

condemning way but in a in a sanc sanctifying way so prayer does that when

1:22:43

we come to God it's it opens that the door of God being able to show us and

1:22:48

and and reveal to us things that are in our hearts that we didn't realize were there so that's one of the special

1:22:55

you know ways these books work is um it's not to replace prayer we even say that in the book it's it's literally

1:23:01

it's a it's to be a catalyst it's to be a help along the way type thing and our

1:23:06

our heart is that when people use these books either for their you know who they're engaged with because a lot of um

1:23:13

engaged couples get these books and they'll use them leading up to what their wedding and then they'll they'll actually trade them and because you can

1:23:20

write your own prayers in there but a lot of single people using them and and just getting testimonies over the years

1:23:26

of of women and men saying you know I was praying for my spouse before but now I'm realizing like God wanted to prepare

1:23:33

me and I wasn't ready I wasn't ready in the sense of spiritually like I had this

1:23:38

wrong perspective I was you know looking in the wrong looking for the wrong things and when I started praying for my

1:23:45

future spouse I started realizing that God wanted to work on me God wanted this to change in my life and uh so that's

1:23:51

that's our heart for it is that um God uses them to help prepare the person to

1:23:57

become a wife or a husband because again you can't change anyone you can only work on yourself so that was a thing

1:24:04

that I had reading through many of these prayers it's like okay if if God were to answer my prayer and bring me the kind

1:24:11

of woman that I'm praying for am I the kind of man ex that she I was like oh

1:24:17

what is she getting wait a minute exactly exact and there were some really

1:24:22

there were some really uncomfortable moments like okay guess I guess I got to go work on that right and and uh the

1:24:28

woman I gave the prayers for my future husband book had the same had the same experience of of seeing herself

1:24:34

reflected in that and it's and that's and I think that's a that's an important lesson for for men to learn is that like

1:24:41

is that women do have their own they have their own responses to sin maybe they're not as upfront about it maybe

1:24:47

they talk about with each other but like you know you you mentioned earlier about how it can seem almost life-threatening

1:24:53

to go talk to go talk to a girl right that's a it seems like a dangerous thing to do and I think

1:24:59

part especially nowadays exactly exactly and I think part of that maybe I'll try

1:25:05

and talk my way around this but it seems almost like um there is there is this

1:25:10

nature of the feminine that comes across as perhaps perfect in a way in itself I

1:25:15

don't know that I I don't know I have to think harder about that but also to recognize that women would read those

1:25:21

prayer books and and recognize that even inside themselves that oh they're just as human as men are but that that that

1:25:28

maybe that doesn't strike men in the same way I'll have to do more thinking about this I I think I would put it and

1:25:34

I'm this is a generalization of course but I think often men are very aware of their own

1:25:39

shortcomings and women are also very aware of our shortcomings so yes yeah

1:25:46

yeah so just real quick do you and your wife talk about the ministry that you've

1:25:52

built together are you surprised that this is that this has become the thing it is because it didn't sound like way

1:25:57

back when that you set out to to be this kind of Creator or to build this life for yourselves but it seems like it's

1:26:03

you know God has offered you the opportunity he opened the door you walk through it and it's been quite successful for you and your family is is

1:26:10

this surprising or does it does it kind of make sense to you or does it take both of you by surprise um it's not

1:26:17

surprising anymore there's definitely been moments of like what like how did this even happen like how are we like we

1:26:24

one point for for several years actually um Hobby Lobby was buying a bunch of our

1:26:29

books and we were in every Hobby Lobby store in the country that's pretty cool and so when that happened I was like how

1:26:35

like how is this even happening right now and we were like one of the I'm pretty sure we we were the first self-published books that they ever put

1:26:42

in their stores and so things like that are it's like okay God you're that's

1:26:48

crazy thank you I didn't deserve it but you made this happen I couldn't have done it because I had nothing nothing

1:26:55

directly to do with it they just reached out and said hey we're interested in your books and we're like I'm like okay

1:27:00

but um so there's been moments like that that have been surprising um I tend to

1:27:07

be the kind of person that doesn't think too hard about too much stuff so I kind

1:27:13

of like what I mean by that is I'm here now and I'm I'm just taking the next

1:27:19

step forward and so in the marriage after God book we talk about this in the sense of it's where I'm at today the yes

1:27:27

that I'm at today started off with a yes 20 years ago and then another little yes

1:27:33

after that and another little yes so God's always leading us somewhere if we're if we're looking

1:27:40

we're paying attention to it and often it's just it's a series of yeses to God it's like yes I will do that yes I'll do

1:27:48

that yes I'll do that and so I we didn't get married and I didn't say to my wife

1:27:53

like let's start a marriage Ministry we had to be honest we almost got divorced four and a half years into marriage we

1:27:58

were done with marriage so this came out of that and so when we started saying yes to God of like yes well I'm GNA

1:28:04

humble myself and and stick it out with even if it doesn't turn out the way I want I'm not going to give up on my

1:28:11

bride um you know we said yes to you know certain jobs that gave us certain

1:28:16

talents to be able to to do these sorts of things my wife um has always had a talent for writing um but I asked her

1:28:24

one day I said hey we're we're dealing with some stuff would you be interested in um having me set you up a Blog and

1:28:30

you just process some of the stuff in writing she said yes to that that that

1:28:35

was another small yes and it wasn't like I had a plan of any of this it was just I was building websites and I wanted to

1:28:41

practice building a Blog and I thought it would be a cool idea that she would write on it about things that we were

1:28:46

going through and things that God was revealing to us um so it's a series of

1:28:51

small yeses that build into big yeses and it just proves what the scriptures

1:28:57

say you know you're faithful with small with the little and you'll be faithful with much if you're faithful Unfaithful with the little you're not going to be

1:29:02

faithful with anything that's right and so in some sense yes I I look back and

1:29:07

I'm like I don't this was never the plan but here we are so that's right so what

1:29:13

what does it look like tomorrow I have no idea but here I am today well the Lord directs our steps right and and uh

1:29:20

sometimes he has better things in store for us than we would plan for ourselves yeah I would never have planned this for

1:29:26

me exactly yeah well I I want to thank you for your ministry and uh and for

1:29:33

your writing and for your books and for your time as well um I've certainly been blessed by things that uh you and your

1:29:40

wife do and uh I've been looking forward to having this conversation because I think many more men and women can be

1:29:47

blessed by them uh especially because it does seem that there's like I said a lot

1:29:52

of hopelessness out there a lot of worry a lot of fear despair anxiety and and I don't believe that it has to be that way

1:29:58

so between your marriage after God books and your prayers for your wife and husband books I think you provide uh and

1:30:04

will provide a lot of hope uh for for people that are wondering about their Destiny and future in marriage thank you

1:30:11

and that's what I hope I hope to point people to Jesus and it's all he is our hope so amen where would you like to

1:30:18

send people to find out more about you and what you do they can find us pretty much on most social media platforms um

1:30:25

marriage after good and marriage after god.com is where they can find our our our blogs and our podcast um I have a

1:30:33

podcast called marriage after God if you just Googled marriage after God to be honest you'll find all of our stuff

1:30:39

great yeah I'll be sure to send them your way thank you so much for your time Erin thanks will glad to be here