0:00

there were definitely times when I was involved in encounters and then releasing them back out to the

0:06

defilement of the Playa was heart-wrenching because you don't know what they're going to choose but it

0:13

wasn't our job is we just made the deposit that we were able to make and came into God's hands

0:26

hey and thank you for joining me for my very special two-year anniversary episode it's been an amazing year with

0:32

some of my biggest guests ever including Pastor Doug Wilson laser huddle and

0:37

feminine not feminist thank you so much for being a part of it but this episode is really special it's sort of a dream

0:44

come true because my guests this week aren't famous authors pastors or content

0:49

creators they're everyday people but ones who have had an incredible impact on my life their names are Rob Katie

0:56

Barb and Andrea and they're from Camp Spirit dream who introduced me to Christ at Burning Man so please enjoy this very

1:03

special two-year anniversary episode and once again thank you so much for being part of the Renaissance of men Katie Rob

1:11

Barb and Andrea from spiritream thanks so much for joining me on the podcast thanks for having us thanks for having

1:16

us uh you know I you guys have made such a huge difference in my life and I think everyone who listens to

1:23

um listens to the podcast listen to my podcast and has heard me on other podcasts has heard me tell the story of

1:28

how I met you at Burning Man and the impact you've had on my life so I'm really grateful that you're taking the time to talk with me today and to share

1:34

some of the stories um share some of the stories in the background that even I don't know

1:40

we're glad to be here yeah so let's let's start by um by allowing

1:46

you guys to introduce yourself so maybe Katie we'll start with you and we'll just go go across and you can share as

1:51

much about yourself and your story as you as you'd like to and then we'll get to the camp and and and all that

1:58

yes my name is Katie Mazza and I'm married to Rob here and I went to Burning Man for seven years

2:05

starting in 2011 ending in 2017 and at

2:10

was life-changing for me to say the least and a privilege to go

2:15

awesome can you share a little bit about your testimony maybe if you guys would be willing to do that

2:22

yes um you don't have to if yes no that's fine it would be a little long yeah just

2:28

suggesting okay yeah that's true I know I know a couple I will say this though I Rob started going to burning man before

2:36

I did and I had some I wanted to go I was in full support of it but I did not

2:43

have a release to go until 2011 because I needed to face some issues in my own

2:52

life that would have hindered my

2:58

ability to function in the team the way I needed to as well as to give to the

3:05

people that came to see us is in the way that would be beneficial

3:10

yeah see that's that's there's a pretty amazing Insight right there like we have to be spiritually prepared to go out to

3:16

to do ministry like that which is so thank you for that yeah Rob and my name is Rob masla and I

3:26

am married to this lovely woman and I think what I'd I like to say I guess I

3:32

was the original part of the original Seven that went by invitation of an

3:40

intercessory group um from um

3:45

oh the Midwest yeah International House of Prayer Mike bickles grew

3:52

and so their job was just to pray and then they they found out about us and

3:57

basically extended an invitation to a bunch of crazy people that would do dream interpretation or spiritual

4:04

encounters or whatever so seven of us went in and the earlier early years that

4:10

would be starting 2004 and uh yeah those were the uh plowing

4:16

and strange and difficult soil years trying to figure out the culture and having the culture figure out us

4:24

and I'm I'm really happy to say God came through and we're all in one piece

4:30

yeah I'm very happy to I'm very happy to see that too yeah I had some close calls

4:35

but we made it yeah yeah I would like to hear about some of those but yeah yeah Barb go ahead yep my name is Barb Owens

4:43

and I'm actually I was the the newest to the it's my first year was 2012. and um

4:50

Andrea and another friend of ours had extended an invitation for me to be on

4:55

the team by the time I came around there were some real um good protocols in place for who was allowed to go out with

5:02

the team and just kind of a screening process to make sure that the people who went out there would do well and not get

5:08

chewed up and spit out by what was happening out there so Andrea was actually my sponsor and um I had a lot

5:16

of great reasons why it wasn't the right year for me to go and then God got a hold of me and really dealt with the

5:21

real issues which was lack of faith um and I remember one of my favorite things I remember telling Rob like I I

5:28

feel like you know what have I have to offer out there and I remember him saying I find the soccer moms do really

5:33

well out there and I'm like I can do that I can go out there and be a mom and love on the people that God brings into

5:39

our camp so that was kind of what it looked like and I actually went for six years

5:44

um we all actually retired in 2017 it was the same year that we all felt the nudge that it was our last time going

5:51

out there yeah well was that the year that the man ran into the fire did you hear us hear about that it was it wasn't

5:57

saying here it was it was wow but you guys always left on you guys always packed up and we're out by Saturday like

6:03

you didn't stick around for the burn yeah yeah right yeah one of the things they learned in the early years was that

6:09

uh by the time it got to that point we were done yeah our team was done with what we were

6:14

there for yeah and I think it's really important that you said that there were protocols in place that you know there

6:20

were processes and there's a formal structure it wasn't like you were just going out there to hang out and maybe do some Ministry work like it was it was a

6:27

it's a whole thing I don't want to say it was like a business because it wasn't business like in a commercial sense but

6:32

it was a like there was formal processes in place for your for your benefit to

6:37

run the camp and everything was a very serious thing yeah that's true yeah for our protection yeah exactly in spite of

6:45

our jovial appearance there was we were serious as a heart attack yeah yeah and

6:50

I think that came across Andrea yeah my name's Andrea berather and I

6:58

started in 2007 went for about 10 years my story is a little different than

7:03

Katie's I um had never done anything like that before ever in my life and I

7:09

grew up in church so I was in like church world and Mommy world when I got

7:14

invited to go and God made it clear that I was supposed to go but it felt like being

7:20

thrown in the deep end of the pool and I really wasn't prepared very well but I had to learn to swim really fast

7:26

and I went out you know very green and very scared and again I like Katie said

7:33

it was the most life-changing experience ministering out there yeah learned a lot yeah hands down

7:39

let's let's talk quickly about how the camp came together with the with the the Genesis of it was so to speak and then

7:46

I'm actually really curious about the sort of things like the chewing up and the spitting out and the processes and the learning like like because from my

7:52

perspective like I just go out to burning man you know in a Secular Progressive new age kind of world where it's like oh Burning Man is a great time

7:59

but that was the last time I was there but I would imagine going in with a completely different worldview there's a

8:04

completely different means of preparation that would be I would have to think about that now actually but I'm

8:10

interested to hear your side what it's like going um into quite dangerous territory so

8:15

let's talk about the origins of the camp and then we'll get into what it was actually like for you guys going there personally and collectively

8:21

yeah so um 2004 as I said uh John Paul Jackson

8:28

kind of our our mentor of sorts had this idea that he should send a team in there

8:35

from streams Ministries I'm part of and we were all a part of streams Ministries so we had this wild idea that he should

8:43

throw a bunch of us into burning man and we all looked at one another and said

8:49

but there's crazy naked people you know what are we gonna do you know confirm

8:54

but anyways we acquiesce because there was no way of saying no to John Paul he's he was a nice guy but when when he

9:03

saw something on the horizon you would go for it and we would just emulate that so we ended up going and we you know we

9:11

had we had a background in um what we call prophetic evangelism it was a

9:17

pioneering idea where we would go on the streets and look at people and just ask

9:23

God for an impression a download on who they are where they were going or

9:29

something and we would just basically say something like when I look at you I

9:34

see and that's how we made conversations on the streets and then we started going to New Age fairs and

9:42

um a few other events but Burning Man was a total immersion it wasn't like you

9:48

can go home or go in into a hotel room and decompress you have to live

9:54

and interact for a whole week so that was a game changer and Christianity was

10:01

definitely in the low low low minority numbers there yeah

10:06

um if at all in some in some cases so so there we were and the first year was

10:12

difficult because people were they were it seemed like

10:17

um they were testing us like some people wouldn't come out of character some

10:23

people would you know we'd say do you have a dream we could interpret and then they'd tell us a pornographic dream and

10:29

it was just this trying to figure out this sort of

10:35

testing thing and I remember complaining to the Lord about it and he goes actually I was

10:40

testing you the first two years to see if you would if

10:46

um you would understand the culture and work with me to find the keys of loving

10:55

them and working with them so that was an eye-opener for me like it wasn't just

11:02

blaming a bunch of crazy people stressing us out it's far different was

11:07

God's plan to get us in the mode of really listening and hearing with our

11:13

heart both them and the god that we had to lean on every stinking moment we were

11:20

there so that that was the big takeaway and um

11:26

but you know there were bright spots that even though we were the first two years were kind of like what was that

11:33

we would have these encounters and here's one I'll I'll just share one there was yeah a woman I was working

11:40

with and I I think I gave her an encouraging word something to do with her makeup how God understood her makeup

11:48

and her composition as a being yeah yeah yeah

11:54

and burning man you never know the difference people are made up there yeah exactly but we're not making this up

12:01

anyway so so we're going so uh

12:06

she kind of looks at me like well that's all well good but then she just goes for the you know she just goes for the the

12:14

artery and she just bakes these looks at me and she says how come you Christians just think you can speak at scripture

12:21

and it's supposed to change us and I'm going oh my God here we are ground zero

12:27

and and you know what what they really wanted was an encounter with Jesus

12:32

living in us look in our eyes and see Jesus kind of thing and we didn't fully

12:39

realize that to to the degree we do now but what I ended up saying to her is I

12:45

need to apologize to you I said to her I said I need to apologize

12:52

um for on behalf of the church for judging you in what we deem is your strange

12:59

appearance or strange behavior and we've missed your hunger

13:04

God never misses your hunger and I kind of lived off that little

13:12

experience for quite a while as a a ground zero feeling in those early years

13:19

is not to miss the hunger of the culture spite of their weird acting out or

13:25

whatever weird channels they might get in for spirituality it didn't matter

13:30

God was concerned about this hunger that he put in the human heart [Music]

13:36

that they were seeking to fill at that Festival but with um not the right food let's say yeah

13:42

exactly just like you yeah right absolutely it was one of the things that impressed me really early on in one of

13:50

my early years was how someone could come in and um they'd obviously been

13:55

pursuing in dark streams and yet there was this almost like clean feeling on

14:00

them and it was what I came to recognize was a genuine hunger for truth and they

14:05

were looking in places where they weren't finding it um but the the purity of the pursuit was

14:11

there and it was obvious when we'd meet people like that it didn't matter what they looked like on the outside we could

14:18

tell that there was something really genuine and true there now did you announce early on that you

14:23

were Christians or advertised at all or it just kind of came out naturally in conversation

14:29

no we we you know you know if you look back in

14:35

the Bible um it's it's kind of like Jesus wouldn't admit he wouldn't fess up that he was

14:42

the son of God you know he wouldn't fess up to all the attributes that he carried

14:47

you know it's it's just you know certain instances he would reveal something and

14:53

then you know that that famous line he said that Peter answered because who do you say I am he says to his own

14:59

disciples so a lot of ways we let them figure out by the presence we carried the peace

15:08

that was in the tent the light and they would verbalize these things they would

15:13

come and come to the entrance of our tent and say there's so much light here

15:18

but there's so much Spirit here or so much peace here how do you do that

15:25

and talk about you know a conversation opener for us to work with them and as rich

15:32

sort of a taste and see approach because we we understand that people in the

15:39

culture come pre-loaded with a whole lot of ideas and judgments about Christians and who they are yeah so you don't you

15:47

don't you don't want to come straight out with that and and hit that wall with people so we're a taste and see you know

15:54

we let them taste of what we had and let the Holy Spirit decide when it was time to reveal who we really were

16:02

yeah yeah I think the Apostle Paul said it well in Acts

16:08

26 17. he was talking to Agrippa a pagan

16:13

King and he's he's given a defense sort of sort of to save his life maybe a defense

16:19

of who he was what he was doing and basically he said uh let me tell you my story

16:25

and it so he tells him the story how a a great light came it was knocked to the

16:31

ground and then a voice came and it was Jesus and Jesus says why are you

16:37

persecuting me but but then Jesus gives him a commission and he says I'm sending you to the Gentiles and I think this is

16:45

what we've embraced to do this to open their eyes

16:50

and then to turn them from Darkness delay

16:56

right open there so it's as Andrew is saying we're doing eye-opening things

17:03

and it's different according you know each person is a little different right

17:08

yeah yeah I don't think a message of sin and repentance would go over so well at

17:14

Burning Man right but I mean but but the message of love because I remember being in the camp and I you may have heard me

17:20

say this or I may have said it to you guys I've definitely said it when speaking about the experiences you know I'm in this I'm in this I don't know

17:26

what the healing encounter with you guys for what three and a half hours something like that and while that's going on Barb and Katie you were there

17:32

I'm looking around the tent you know like trying to figure out who are these people because I didn't see any Buddhas

17:38

or vishnus or psychedelic art or anything like that which is pretty as you know pretty usual for burning man

17:44

you walk into someone's camp and you you get a sense like are they you know DMT you know drug trippies or are they you

17:51

know you know some sort of like new Eastern mysticism whatever and I didn't see any of that and that was really odd

17:56

for me because I couldn't quite triangulate who you guys were right and it was only that it was only the reveal

18:02

at the end wait what what are you doing here yeah and so that was a consciously

18:08

chosen I mean it would have to be right yeah yeah well it was a really beautiful thing too to see people experience who

18:14

Jesus really is yeah they have their misconceptions but to let them experience it firsthand uh it rocked

18:22

them and it would I know rock me and the encounters to watch them having this encounter for the first time with the

18:28

true Jesus with the true God who created them yeah and then of course I came up to

18:34

visit you guys for Christmas um a few months later thank you for hosting me by the way and um that visit

18:42

was probably as powerful as meeting you on the Playa because I got to see that

18:47

it wasn't just you just wear this out on the Playa for for work let's say it's like no you you live in this way that

18:53

I'd never encountered other Christians living especially in your interactions with each other and seeing your lives in

18:59

the way you treated me even off even off the Playa um we try

19:06

as it should be yeah yes as it should be yeah I agree I agree so so

19:12

um how did the camp then from its early days start to grow and and when did you

19:17

get a sense like okay maybe we should be doing this for more than a couple years maybe we should start pulling together

19:23

people from across the country and make it into like a thing and what did it look like in those early early days like

19:29

if there was just seven of you you probably didn't have a big a big tent all set up or maybe you did I don't know

19:34

what it what did it actually look like and then how did it Grow from there we had those we had those chintzy pop-up

19:41

things you could buy for I don't know maybe a hundred dollars a pop and the

19:46

wind promptly bloomed shreds the first year but this figure this is where we

19:52

learned about Burning Man Community we were we were out we're we're a day camp so that meant we would Minister uh

20:01

just to the point of exhaustion during the day but at night we would go out and

20:06

look at the sights and the art and whatnot but the wind picked up ferocious winds and dust out there and we came

20:14

back and all our neighbors were holding our tent poles down and helping us and

20:21

you know the community is valued in prized there so you know we're taking notes all the time like these people are

20:28

serious about um their neighbors you know feeding one another or taking care of something so

20:36

so from there I think there wasn't a time that we said we're not coming back from

20:43

the first time even though it may have been some difficult testing there was enough to say there's there's promise

20:51

here there are people there are people worth coming back for so there was never a time we thought we were going to quit

20:58

um the next year I think it at least doubled more than doubled and then by

21:03

the third year it was up to maybe 27 members wow the first year it was

21:09

actually 50. 2007. seven so four five six fourth year

21:15

yeah it really went crazy but it was kind of like um we we have to play with how we would

21:24

bring in new people and we were a little fast and loose at time but then we

21:30

developed a protocol that you have to sponsor someone yeah someone would vouch

21:35

for the person they're bringing in and have some accountability yeah because it's yeah yeah you had to

21:43

have the measure of character um and the Heart the right heart and

21:51

um well yeah and that actually there wasn't there was

21:58

a little formal thing about taking the art of hearing God class from streams Ministry because that covered

22:05

character being more important than gifting and and character would also include we

22:13

would include it now maybe a little broader um a little broader umbrella of do they

22:20

love well do they understand honor that they understand protocol

22:25

so all those things were became very important to us so so this art of hearing God class is a

22:32

21-hour class that just hits all the raw spots about about our Humanity sometimes

22:40

go ahead and um going back to the beginning when Rob went that first year the first couple of

22:46

years as he had said the IHOP people had invited the team to

22:53

join them and at that time that team just handed out water bottles and back

22:59

then it was bottles of water to pastors by and and would you know mostly do that

23:05

and then these guys show up and the scene begins to change the whole thing begins to

23:11

change and and those people then handed it over to the spirit dream team and they no

23:20

longer participated in in a physical way and so from that it went to not just

23:28

handing out water but getting the encounter tent and then there was the

23:34

process of adding the coffee Dome and their story line in that as well but it

23:40

kind of evolved one you know piece by piece I totally forgot about the coffee Dome

23:49

it's like if if there are touch points the first point are the people that give out water and just talk to people and

23:56

then we have a coffee Dome where if you went in there there'd be a chill space there'd be people to you know there's

24:03

space to talk a little deeper or a quiet a quiet space yeah and enjoy your coffee

24:08

some people would spend all day in our coffee now and then kind of the deep end

24:13

would be the encounter can a 90-foot military tent where we would seat we would have maybe

24:21

10 groups of two or three of our team that would encounter people like such as

24:26

yourself as they came in let me do the screen share real quick and because you sent me some photos of

24:32

the encounter tent and I can pull that up right now and we can take a look for the people

24:38

for the people watching on YouTube they can actually see the encounter tent can

24:43

you guys see that yeah yeah that's that's the tent and you can I mean and like I was saying earlier you can kind

24:49

of look around and you know there's nothing you know what is that like a Galaxy or an eyeball painting or

24:55

something like that but there's nothing in there that's like there's nothing in there that's psychedelic or anything like that it was very

25:01

um it was very uh very plain I guess you would say by contrast but like it

25:07

doesn't that doesn't mean it was ordinary in any way and so I just I think I'm not sure which end of the tent

25:12

I was at but I remember being at one end of the tent Yeah by about that time our our Decor

25:18

was becoming early Ezekiel okay so there's there's probably a bunch

25:24

of things that you're gonna have to unpack for a lot of people listening including me so let's maybe let's unpack John Paul Jackson's dreams Ministries

25:29

and art of hearing God and then early let's not unpack these things just because there's this context that I

25:35

think a lot of listeners even if they're Christians won't really have a lot of context for like who is John Paul Jackson's what is Jackson what is

25:42

streams Ministry what did he think about what you were doing in the whole thing so let's maybe back up for a second and talk about that

25:50

where to begin right yeah where to begin well John Paul is now passed away but um

25:58

streams Ministry lives on with a a new man in charge uh John Thomas but

26:06

um so John John Paul was a teacher and what we would call a revelatory minister you

26:13

know he operated in the gift of the prophetic and in in my opinion he was

26:18

um uh one of the more principled and a man who who walked in character which is why

26:26

personally my eye was attracted to him there was nothing flighty about it and he could unpack

26:33

um the meanings of what it is to live a prophetic lifestyle or just that everybody has gifts you just gotta

26:41

realize everyone has gifts they're given from God and but they need to be developed and they need to be developed

26:47

alongside character that was his biggest message and he would you know he would say that over

26:53

and over again so it's it's still alive today where I

26:58

still teaches teach those courses there are streams teachers that teach the courses understanding dreams and Visions

27:05

is another um very popular and needed course because all of humanity gets Dreams yeah

27:12

and there are few people that could interpret it with a hebraic or a

27:17

Biblical background and so we teach that yeah there's possible to do that it's it's a long

27:25

learning curve but it's worth pursuing yeah that was one of the things that um

27:31

that I think initially attracted me to going through your uh tent is because I had done dream

27:38

interpretation on my own after just a little bit of training in Jung Yan style dream interpretation like 15 years

27:44

earlier so when I came out with the Playa and the guy that I met said oh I just came from Spirit dream they do dream interpretation and healing I'm

27:50

like I probably was dream interpretation that hooked me that was like that was something I could kind of understand like oh that sounds cool I'll go check

27:56

that out yeah yeah please

28:04

well that was kind of your domain up front well yeah okay I don't want to do

28:09

all the talking but but we did we had a sandwich board it was kind of like you

28:15

know I had this idea like well we're like a um spiritual Cafe so we need a

28:21

menu board so they can see what they want and and it was just a kind of a cheap way to hook people

28:27

but but it works you know we had dream interpretation we had um encouraging encouraging words we had

28:35

healing I you know help me Healing Touch Healing Touch Destiny Direction okay Destiny

28:41

Direction and then we had spiritual encounter which became such a popular

28:47

one we started calling it free fall uh we thought of metaphors for everything

28:53

but essentially they're real spiritual experiences that we could back up in the

28:58

Bible but we didn't want to use religious language yes so and we know the culture is hardwired

29:06

for healing inner healing physical healing all kinds of stuff so

29:12

you know the combination of we well let me back up we know that the human Spirit

29:18

we all have a human spirit and it's hardwired to look for God in some measure you know

29:26

pre-salvation it's it's kind of dim but it's still looking because he put eternity in the heart of man

29:33

eternity is not a Earthly component that has to come from God so we know that people have their radar up and and so

29:41

they're comparing our methodologies of healing or

29:46

encouragement to theirs and the kind of ambiance the light

29:51

around us the feel the atmosphere the peace and that that's what worked you know

29:58

they might have re they might read the menu board but then they're in the door and they're gone oh wow

30:05

how do you guys do that I have this question like right off the bat they'd walk through the threshold and they go

30:11

how do you guys do this you know yeah and I go well let's sit down

30:19

yeah I've struggled to because I I would tell people you know the whole story in various levels of detail where I showed

30:25

up at the at the tent that my the guy had directed me to at my camp and

30:31

struggling to remember what was actually written on the menu board because I I want to say things that because I don't

30:37

remember exactly what was written there but I I want to say things that were

30:42

they were interesting to me but the language wasn't of any sort of like identifiable New Age Eastern mysticism

30:49

kind of thing right there was something about it's like I recognize the intention Behind these things even if I

30:56

don't know what any of the practices are besides you know like free fall like if I walked up with a free fall that sounds

31:01

cool or dream interpretation I know but anything else like that's that's I think the skill that you guys had developed is

31:09

how to speak in a language that the culture understands but that isn't the culture's language

31:15

and that's that's very difficult to do we're writing that one down yeah

31:21

I like that yeah and and the truth was so the way the the encounter tent was set up the reason I said that was Rob's

31:27

domain is because we had a waiting area at one end of the tent so because we had

31:32

a line every day of people wanting encounters and we could only do so many before we take a break for lunch and

31:38

then we'd have a window of time after lunch before dinner where we could only do so many so Rob and our other leader

31:45

Darren were in the waiting area greeting people when they came in and they had the menu board there so they would sit

31:51

with them and they'd say you know what looks appealing and the whole time they were kind of pinging in the spirit which

31:58

of the 10 encounter teams will this person fit with where is God directing

32:03

me to seat them so like for your encounter well I remember you saying you were sitting there waiting and kind of

32:09

talking to them and you were looking at the teams which one you thought you might see sit with and you told us you

32:15

saw our team as Katie and I and then a man named Larry and you thought oh I don't want to be seated with that team

32:20

is the exact team you got seated with I know yeah yeah so uh that was kind of so

32:26

they would kind of being worried the person belong and then bring the person the burner back and introduce them to

32:31

the team members and it's always kind of funny to me because we had our menu board and they would always say this is

32:37

so and so they'd make the introductions and they're here for Destiny Direction which we would you know take note of but

32:44

the fact is is that uh Holy Spirit guided every encounter we didn't really know where any of them were going to go

32:50

I mean we flew by the seat of our pants with every encounter because we didn't know what really the person was bringing

32:56

what they really needed but God knew every time and we learned to just flow with whatever was happening in the

33:03

spirit well we had to be open to the creativity of God because there were things that he

33:10

would download do this and we're like do what he would take us all on an

33:15

adventure yeah and we'd have to figure it out later what just happened oh yeah because he's very creative in how he reached people yeah yeah I had one

33:23

encounter my my newbie year where Andrea was the team lead and I was on a team and I won't do all the details of the

33:29

encounter but this she was doing this encounter with this woman and I'm watching and I was

33:35

super impressed because I'm a newbie and I'm just taking it all in right and Andrea just navigates this whole thing

33:40

with this gal and the gal gets this you know incredible experience and when she leaves at the end Andrea looks at me and

33:47

the other guy on the team she said well that was different and that's why that was the weirdest encounter okay and I

33:52

said you've never done that before no but she just flowed with it so beautifully I'm like wow you know take

33:58

notes Barb Andre knows how to do this and I need to know how to do it too but yeah yeah it was amazing something that

34:05

you said um the way you said that about the language thing it prompted a memory of

34:11

an encounter that I had maybe second or third year that I went and I was in

34:18

although at the latter years that I went I hung out mostly in the dome but with

34:25

you that time I was in the encounter tip thankfully but um

34:30

so I was in the encounter tent and two two different days uh two different

34:37

teams I would with two different teams and two women were brought you know one woman one day and or that morning and

34:45

one in the afternoon and it was so interesting because each of those gals

34:52

had had abortions and I had had that experience out of the

34:58

whole team the leaders you know prompted by the Holy Spirit brought those gals to the

35:06

team that I was on and and holy spirit gave me language

35:11

to be able to talk to them about principles

35:16

because they were born in an age and an era where this was natural and why did

35:23

if it was so not natural and accepted and the way to do life

35:29

then why did they feel so crappy afterwards after having an abortion what

35:34

why did things shift and their lives kind of fall apart well

35:40

as I said you know Holy Spirit gave me language that they could understand and

35:46

relate to using principles about the Creator and even though man's ways are

35:53

this creators ways are not and and creators ways and principles overrule

36:03

man's ways and so the things that we feel sometimes when we violate the

36:09

principles of the Creator impact us greatly and they they could really

36:15

uh register with that and it opened the doors for them to get some relief and

36:23

some cleansing and some healing I think that's one of the things that that uh you guys did so masterfully is

36:31

you provided that you provided real healing and relief and release and you

36:36

know I have that I have that painting Andrea that you made of Rob hugging that girl it's around here somewhere I don't

36:41

have a digital version but um maybe it'll maybe it'll pop up on my desk somewhere but you know that that you

36:47

came out and you actually offered that and you as you had said earlier Rob about Barb coming like soccer moms do

36:52

really well out there like that was Barb that was exactly what I needed you know even down to the point that like I

36:57

didn't have the soccer mom experience with my mom as we've talked about but you know my mom's name was also Barbara

37:02

and so that was no coincidences there of being able to receive and that was a

37:08

powerful aspect for me it was being able to see an image of the mother that I didn't have right and and be like wait

37:15

this is a thing right and and to the point where you I could see in my own

37:20

life God's hand at work putting me right where I needed to be in the same way these girls with you Katie

37:26

you know had what they needed to to be able to talk with you from a position where you could relate to their

37:31

experience and communicate truth in a way no one else really could yeah it's a

37:36

beautiful thing yeah so um so as people would how did this

37:42

process this protocol kind of develop like with Sandwich Board and you know obviously you would have had to learn on

37:49

the go about how this is all going to work getting a sense of like well we should just trust ourselves trust the

37:54

spirit to guide us in the right way flying by the seat of your pants and these healing encounters and not going

38:00

by any set playback set Playbook that all that all developed over the years I'm guessing yeah yeah it did I mean

38:08

Andrea brought up the word creativity how creative God is and I I think we're

38:14

more dialed into Heaven is an extremely creative Innovative place and there's things we

38:21

haven't even near tapped into and but we were being in an extreme environment and

38:28

basically our go-to prayer was help God we we get ideas I mean we would just get

38:36

ideas and try them and and also it was a community United in this Quest I can't

38:43

say enough about that that while we had leadership and sub leaders

38:49

I mean it was an open dialogue of ideas so anybody could have

38:55

an idea and we'd go yeah that sounds like it has weight on it let's try it you know so I don't know maybe I came up

39:02

with a menu but I think I did I think I had this sandwich board idea but you know there's so many details to doing

39:11

um this kind of Outreach and everything became an art form the serving of food

39:17

and inviting of guests and who to invite and um the kind of music we chose Katie

39:24

would come up with a playlist every year of um basically kind of secular songs there

39:31

were that were edging into values that we we appreciated you know what I mean

39:36

and then we could we can work with that you know so when you open yourself up to

39:42

the creativity of God and doing things differently one idea leads all of a sudden you have two ideas and then those

39:48

two ideas you have four ideas and you have those four ideas and you have eight ideas and it just mushrooms and there's

39:55

it's just Limitless the creativity and the ideas that can come and then when

40:01

you open that sphere up for God to do whatever he wants to do on that platform of creativity it's it's

40:08

blind mind-blowing yeah there were there were times when we would have the nudge

40:13

to do something in an encounter that we didn't have the theology for but we knew it was the spirit telling us but every

40:20

time we'd go back to scripture because that was always our Plumb line and we'd find the principle uh because it's it

40:27

was not about going outside of the the lines to the point where you're violating principle God's principles

40:32

ever um but there were definitely Times by the spirit when um we knew what we were

40:38

to to do and then we would have conversations later hey this happened somebody helped me unpack this and that

40:44

was part of the value of team is having the spiritual insight to be able to bounce off of each other and make sure

40:51

that we were staying in lined up with God's principles and I think that's really important and

40:56

I'm grateful to hear you say that because I know from uh I know from the

41:01

encounter meeting you guys and getting to spend a lot of time with you guys in

41:06

in Idaho and getting to know you personally but I've never really asked too many questions about the protocols

41:12

and practices and and the discipline that's involved to do something like that and still hold to your principles

41:18

still hold to your your your personal Integrity not any of you would ever lose that but you're being pulled in all

41:24

these different energetic directions if nothing else and if only by the overall feeling of the event I mean I and I've

41:31

been unable to speak to the amount of discipline that must have gone on behind the scenes to support you collectively

41:37

and individually in the conduct of that and maybe you can speak into some of those things because you know it's like

41:43

deep sea diving like you don't just go swimming down there like you have to build if it's suits and you know

41:48

underwater whatever maybe you can speak to that a little bit yeah um well let's talk about

41:55

um one thing that became a bit Central to what we did was a father or a mother blessing

42:02

um and it's something I I was doing quite a bit before I would stand in place for

42:10

the absent father or the abusive father and sometimes apologize and or sometimes

42:17

you know just say um I'm you know I'm not actually your father but I believe I

42:23

understand father God enough to impart something to you so you have to be very

42:30

intimate with people well you know you have to hold them close and you have to deal in your mind

42:36

that that this physical intimacy is just a buy the buy I'm I'm looking to reach

42:42

their soul their broken soul and their Spirit that's just aching

42:47

to be validated by a simple I love you yeah I bless you

42:54

and to do that you have to be absolutely clear in your mind like

42:59

um no this is I'm not going into any even though that that physical proximity

43:04

Is there I'm not going to go into any fantasy you know yeah about this there

43:09

is one significant time I'll just tell a brief story it was near the end of the

43:15

week we would have what we call popcorn encounters that were very quick because we had such an overflow of people that

43:22

we couldn't get to during the week yeah so we'd have people hanging out on Friday going when is it my turn so we

43:28

herded them into the tent and we told our team you know pair up do 10 minutes

43:33

worth so so I'm kind of standing there watching kind of directing a little bit

43:39

but mostly just watching and the coming a couple of my teammates me it was you

43:45

that's right that's me yeah we I'll I'll give the background and then you take your side of it so I was teamed up with

43:51

one of our Swedish teammates Malin and this young man came to us and he said that um

43:58

he was he was struggling with whether or not he was homosexual but he said every time he had a homosexual encounter it

44:04

felt wrong but yet he was so drawn to men and right away we knew what he was looking for was a father it was he was

44:11

thinking he was homosexual but what he was wanting was a touch of a father so we said hey Rob and brought him over and

44:18

told Rob and then Rob took it from there and yeah so and so taking it from there

44:25

but I just throw a a just a little tidbit here you know Jesus came to reveal the father

44:32

because you know I mean he even placed himself under that to reveal the father

44:37

and so we take this really seriously that there must be a crying need in humanity

44:44

for her father and we we know that to be absolutely true now yeah so there I am

44:49

standing with a short man that's very sincere very broken and and you know basically are you ready for this I'm I

44:57

just give him a little Spiel I'm just gonna hold you like a dad and and speak this blessing and I and I bless them

45:03

from conception and because God's original design was not that they go

45:09

astray but they know his Spirit from the beginning you know so I I just take him

45:15

through kind of stages in life and bless them and and confirm love upon them and

45:21

and um bless their design and their Destiny bless theirs their bodies bless

45:28

their souls bless their Spirits the way God intended so somewhere in the middle of it I mean

45:35

this is where God really turned the tables on me I I do this almost with you know just by the by in a sense not that

45:42

I'm not involved but I I know how to control yeah it gets very emotional yeah

45:48

two of us sometimes but this one I totally God took me in this different

45:54

place of almost like as Ezekiel said I sat where they sat I understood his pain

46:01

to to such a degree I wept his tears well as weird as that sounds I might

46:07

miss cheers yeah while I'm holding them and then we and and I and I actually

46:13

have this strange thought while I'm there many streets that I'm like God this is crazy uh it gets crazier all the

46:20

time but you know we're just both Sinners yeah

46:26

being smiled upon by a god of great grace and great love

46:31

I have somehow merged with this massive Humanity that's broken

46:36

and uh still chokes me up with you today yeah yeah so you know and and then the Lord

46:44

just took me on a little prophetic Journey where he's telescoping out from here he goes this is the effects of this

46:50

kind of thing that people that Embrace this we will meet

46:55

the culture um just the way they are the way Jesus did

47:01

and I could see it telescoping out for Generations this is this is God's

47:06

way that's just some profound experience that painting's actually hanging on the

47:12

wall should I grab it yeah please yeah please yeah because I've got the I found I

47:19

don't have it on my desk anymore I actually put it up my wall behind me but it's your version will be much better than the than the card that that that uh

47:27

little printout that you gave me that went around the world with me by the way [Music]

47:33

oh it's so lovely so lovely yeah and that was this that was the spirit of

47:39

everything that you did right and that came across and what's and and you know Andrea

47:45

what's so beautiful about that painting that you capture is like is how um impersonal isn't the word but like it's

47:51

personal but it's it's trans person it's larger than personal what's going on there you know it's it's like it's she

47:58

is being embraced by something so much larger than Rob through Rob right and Rob as well and you really captured that

48:05

I don't know yeah yeah yeah and that that was uh that was a young lady from

48:11

um well I don't know she just came in the tent and her story was her dad passed away

48:18

when she's two years old and she had this vague memory of her dad and she just

48:27

it was an ache in her heart yeah it was feeling an ache in her heart and it really impacted her

48:34

um really impacted her to the point where we Center um

48:40

a copy of that print yeah and she showed it to her family and her family's been

48:46

praying for it you know this is whole family and they were like astounded at how God met her in a different sort of

48:54

way you know so I think I'll just add something else uh

49:03

germane to our encounters um Burning Man changed us

49:10

as much as it changed every single person that came in there oh yeah

49:17

absolutely oh yeah yeah we did not know uh God could be that big yeah or that

49:25

good yeah yeah or that creative or that anything named the blank that that fits

49:31

in with the characteristics of God we did not know yeah until we went over the edge and and said yes to this crazy

49:39

event yeah yeah and so to me God reveals himself uh you know Greater Grace the greater

49:46

level of areas of sin there's great grace available and but I think there's few of us I'll just address the

49:53

Christians and the audiences few of us that have this yes of I'll go there just my only parachute is God

50:01

you know yeah I remember you guys being I remember being told my first year that we didn't the team we

50:09

didn't go out there with an agenda and I remember thinking you guys were full of it I'm like of course we do we're going out there to you know save people you

50:15

know well it took me I don't know a year or two when I finally really understood

50:21

Jesus died for all Humanity most of whom won't acknowledge what he did for them

50:27

what we were called to do when going out there was to just love on people in his

50:32

name with No Agenda with no needed outcome from it other than to offer the

50:38

gift of the love of God in whatever form that took and then it was God's job then

50:43

to take the deposit we'd made and do with it whatever was going to happen it really released off of me any need for

50:51

it's not about that it's not about having to get to you know the point of Salvation or anything like that I am I

50:57

was out there really just giving out of the gifts that he'd given me personally

51:02

and allowing God's love to just flow to these people and to bring healing and

51:08

the touch of the whatever it looked like and it was it is in Paradigm shifting experience to to lay

51:16

down all agenda and to step into that River of the love of God and just allow yourself to be swept with it and to do

51:23

whatever comes out of that place that was I think for me the thing that changed me the most

51:30

um we had you asked about what protocols we had I had to do my process was like

51:35

battening down the hatches there were a lot of things that I was allowed to do so to speak or that I did books I read

51:42

things I watched whatever until I became part of the Burning Man team when you

51:47

know God would say we're not gonna you can't do those things because you didn't even realize the doors it was leaving

51:52

open so my process of battening down the hatches and submitting to discipline in

51:58

some of these areas but the the reward of being part of that and getting to

52:04

experience the love of God like that was just I mean there's nothing like it you're just never the same again after

52:09

you really just Dive In with everything into that that flow of God's love

52:16

I just want to validate what you said about um submitting and really trusting because um

52:22

you know I came out there and we had such a meaningful experience then I came to visit you guys and you know celebrate

52:28

Christmas with you and ate bear and drank wine and you know listen to music and and then

52:35

um but you guys even though we became close friends and kept in touch while I was traveling he had to wait five years

52:40

for me to come around literally five years like Labor Day Labor Day weekend 2015 is when we met and then I flipped

52:47

to quarterly and get baptized on I didn't fly up there for that I came to visit but you know but five years later

52:53

and there was never a point during that time where I felt ever felt any pressure

52:58

or any need or any pull or anything like that you just you just loved me for five years while I've traveled around the

53:05

world doing the craziest things and then I found out later behind the scenes you guys were praying for me like oh yeah

53:11

what is he doing oh no but that's a real that's a real Testament you know to to everything that

53:17

you're saying that just to be so open-handed about it when that can be so difficult like my church does Ministry

53:24

at abortion abortion clinics here in Phoenix has a nationwide and almost

53:30

International now Ministry for that and then also with Mormon temples and they're they're very open about like no

53:35

you're not actually the one that does anything you know the Holy Spirit you allow the Holy Spirit to work through you and don't personalize it and so I I

53:42

relate very much to that but then to see that to be able to to be able to vouch for it a thousand percent that I never

53:48

felt anything other than just you know pure love from you guys and how powerful and how challenging that must have been

53:54

for you to want so much for the people that you give to including me but not just me but then having to be like put

54:01

it in God's hands yeah yeah love is patient right yeah yeah I read that yeah

54:06

yeah that's pretty good yeah there were definitely times when I was involved in encounters and then releasing them back

54:14

out to the defilement of the Playa was heart-wrenching because you don't know what they're

54:20

going to choose but it wasn't our job is we just made the deposit that we were able to make and

54:26

come into God's hands yeah God is God Is Bigger Than previously thought oh yeah well you said a really

54:33

important word there you said defilement to the Playa and that's that is strong

54:39

proper Christian language for what's for what's going on right because I think when I tell people like I you know I'm

54:45

at Christ that Bernie Manor introduced himself to me or however the phrase I use it it's that um the people who know

54:50

about burning man even the even the gauziest friendliest videos on on YouTube you know show Hedonism and maybe

54:58

not full-on debauchery but you know it's it's definitely we'll call it a very open culture right but viewed through of

55:04

course through the secular lens it's this Shangri-La kind of experience which we'll get back to but viewed through a

55:10

Christian lens you know has as much pain as there is that's very real about being there there is a lot of sin and it's

55:18

hard to it's it's it's impossible to avoid that and so when you say batten down the hatches like yeah it's all

55:24

around you everywhere and as much as people really are concerned about their neighbors your neighbors might have the

55:30

orgy camp or whatever right they'll hold down your tents and a wind but

55:37

they might be naked while they're doing it oh hello there

55:42

you know what's really funny about that is the power and goodness of God because

55:48

we would never address their nakedness as they entered into the encounter tent to sit with us we just said well that's

55:56

God's domain we're not we're not here to judge their dress or lack of it but so

56:01

we get a lot of practice making eye contact yes really good at it but you know they

56:07

would sit down and this happened so many times suddenly they'd be looking for a

56:13

covering for their nakedness and we wouldn't we hadn't said a word

56:18

you know they'd be looking for a scarf or a shirt or something and and you know it just kind of amuses how God would

56:25

work in that area conviction's still alive no matter how much yeah they try to wallow conviction

56:32

and still be alive so um I want to give a shout out to uh uh

56:38

Darren Zinn who the present leader but also uh Lisa machek who co-led with me

56:44

for several years and Reese Saunders and Scott eblin who were the early guys from

56:50

students that did it I mean they they laid some serious tracks for for us to grow

56:57

um the other thing I wanted to say you talked about protocols there was actually a real

57:03

um uh nuts and bolts protocol thing that we learned from the Native American people

57:10

uh when we first came to Reno a small Church

57:15

hosted us and as part of that church there were a Native American couple and

57:21

their their son-in-law and their their daughter and they they came up to us and said do

57:27

you want to do protocol tonight so they did this very formal uh Native

57:33

American protocol where they danced we did a friendship dance they they spoke blessing over us they gave us gifts they

57:40

welcomed us into the land and we thought that was spiritual these

57:45

Native American Believers that Bluer blew our minds a bit and then they waited and so we went to dinner with

57:52

them and and they kind of waited for the US to feed back and so basically we were

57:58

saying different forms of what was that and so the answer came back from Dan

58:04

Mosley it was leading the group and he said basically we did it backwards when

58:10

you enter a stranger's land or a tribe land you are supposed to introduce

58:15

yourself and ask permission to enter the land those these are the old ways

58:23

and uh and then bring a gift we would have a gift exchange

58:28

and so after that for about four years they brought us around to about four

58:33

different tribes and we would meet um the chief or the tribal chairman and

58:40

maybe some members of of uh the governing body or whatever and we

58:47

would buy you know buy a Pendleton blanket we do a very formal presentation and we would ask them for permission to

58:54

enter the land for um and the reason we are doing it is

59:01

um to in order to speak the message of Jesus you know and whether they were saved

59:09

pre-saved didn't matter they recognized you are doing the old ways of honor and

59:15

in fact they're God's ways you're not just assuming you have the right to come into an area now you know

59:22

you're doing the old ways and we would get the blessing every time

59:28

um and we we credit that with putting a whole different level of blessing on us

59:34

both um as the uh the gatekeeper people that God

59:41

had there originally and and also the blessing of the land

59:48

the Playa the yeah just the land in general you know the these were ancient

59:53

lands owned by the people and um so this there's plenty of scriptures

59:59

in the Bible about the land how the land actually is meant to uh give us light

1:00:04

cooperate with the sons of God and and such so uh that's a whole nother

1:00:11

layer that would be another conversation so um

1:00:16

so I wonder so for those of you who who showed up in the later years maybe Barb or Katie I'm I I had this image in my

1:00:25

mind of so you've heard about the spirit dream camp and maybe you've seen photos and I would still like to go through

1:00:31

some of the photos but you heard about the camp and so you finally take the leap to go for the first time and so

1:00:37

you're in the RV or or in the car or whatever and you're actually going into

1:00:43

the land of Burning Man and you drive up and you're seeing like the welcome home kind of sign you're going through the

1:00:48

whole ritual like just walk me through that moment of like you're actually venturing into the place that you've

1:00:54

heard about well by the time I went of course I had

1:01:01

heard the stories about going into the gate how the welcoming committee there

1:01:07

and so I was I was actually anticipating that with great Delight

1:01:13

getting down and applying and doing dust angels and all that and so it was really quite exciting I'll

1:01:19

tell you though when we got the camp up and running uh that very first Year Rob

1:01:25

did not go that year that I went because he took the year off he and Lisa had

1:01:31

handed over the leadership of the camp to Darren

1:01:36

and so they thought it best that for him to get um off to a good start

1:01:43

they would stay back and allow him to run and uh which is a beautiful thing

1:01:50

because then they well Lisa didn't come back although she wanted to but a job took her away from that but

1:01:57

Rob was able to come back and do that successfully so that's another example

1:02:03

of a transition in leadership that worked successfully in this Arena where Rob

1:02:11

could come under rocket and um and work successfully with

1:02:17

him but anyway I went when Rob didn't and so with this whole change of leadership there was a lot of

1:02:23

changes to the team and I'm just coming on new and um so there was a lot of

1:02:29

things that I didn't understand until later you know nuances of changes in leadership and I was supportive as I

1:02:37

could be um but there was a time when I was in

1:02:42

the the um the coffee Dome and so that was I

1:02:48

they were kind of putting me here and there and so I was in the coffee Dome and they had prepped me a little bit

1:02:55

that people would give you gifts maybe they'll give you stones and so on because it's the giving culture and and

1:03:01

you know be sure that you look at them and discern our what you need to do with them do you keep them and and pray over

1:03:09

them and cleanse them or do you throw them away and this sort of thing so this happened and uh and this somebody gave

1:03:16

me some little stones and I felt like they were defiled and but I was

1:03:23

new you know all of this was kind of new to me and so I went to

1:03:28

um one of the people and the the leaders in the dome and I and it was almost like

1:03:33

she didn't even recognize me she looked at those and and she could feel that defilement and told me what to do but it

1:03:40

was almost like that defilement almost closed off who I was to her almost it

1:03:47

was really an interesting interesting exchange and I got rid of the stones and

1:03:52

clints and all of that but it really um instructed for me it was quite quite

1:03:58

and so that from that experience that one experience and I went on and I

1:04:04

didn't I was pretty clear about receiving gifts and what to do with them but that first the initial one that

1:04:11

breaking the ice in that Arena so to speak was quite um well

1:04:18

striking yeah how are you going to know right like there's so much to figure out as

1:04:23

you get on the ground about how the whole thing works right under the weather and the dust and the people like

1:04:30

someone hands you some rocks like that's not gonna be the first thing on your mind right right yeah right yeah yeah

1:04:36

and so when I by the time I came around the protocols were pretty well established so I know there was some

1:04:42

years prior to me coming that were pretty wonky I've heard the stories but um I started in 2012 and I just felt

1:04:50

really covered I mean Andrea was my official sponsor but I had all these guys there was I don't know

1:04:55

either of us or something like that that went from North Idaho at the time and so I just kind of like held on to their

1:05:02

coattails and went along with things and if there was anything that fell off that was the beauty of the structure is my

1:05:09

first point of contact if I didn't understand or whatever would be my sponsor it would have been Andrea but I

1:05:15

knew because we were already doing Ministry together up here we had a dream interpretation Ministry that we'd been doing already for a few years together

1:05:21

um our whole team I just felt that real sense of covering but that was kind of my grafting in so I had a little bit of

1:05:27

an easier on-ramp on that front I wasn't as concerned about the spiritual aspect

1:05:33

of it I was more a big baby about the Dust yeah and the discomfort and True

1:05:40

Confession yes I dodged the rolling in the dust at the gate my new year I don't

1:05:46

have to do it either I didn't want to I'm like I'm not doing that I didn't do it you didn't no how did you get out of

1:05:51

it you just like say no I don't know we basically lied and then repented later

1:05:59

we we told we told them we were so shocked that two bikini clad women with

1:06:05

skulls tattooed down their backs entering our bus and we're looking like

1:06:11

we came out of the 4-H club in costumes you know we're we're going

1:06:18

oh yeah we're cool we've been here before yeah they just thought you Liars just play it cool yeah yeah but I I had

1:06:27

it was it was a good thing going in feeling that covered uh but for me um I had to be kicked out of the nest a

1:06:33

little bit um because I was I was afraid to stay step out and wasn't speaking up like so

1:06:40

the I remember one encounter I had and there were three people on the team and

1:06:45

um it was a young woman and I felt like she needed a mother's blessing but

1:06:52

I wasn't gonna do it right I'm a Noob I'm just learning and pass so right so

1:06:57

the other two people in the team they gave her this encounter at the end of it I turned to the team lead a woman named

1:07:03

Deborah and I told her you know I kind of felt like this and she said you you need to speak up more she said if you

1:07:09

feel something like that you can whisper in my ear um and that she was gonna she'd give me the guidance so that I wouldn't derail

1:07:16

and do something stupid right well I was kicking myself I was so mad at myself because I knew this girl needed the love

1:07:23

of a mother and I was feeling it in my heart and I didn't extend it and I was really upset with myself and so I just

1:07:30

prayed I was like you know what God she I know she needs this and I miss the boat and anyway I just had to entrust

1:07:36

god with it um this is a great testimony about the Synergy of the spirit that our camp operated in so

1:07:43

that night at dinner we had dinner and then I go up to the station where we're washing our plates and I overhear one of

1:07:51

our other teammates Rochelle who actually is one of our Idaho teammates talking about this young gal who came

1:07:56

into the coffee Dome she had an encounter and she was really undone by her encounter and so she went into the

1:08:02

coffee Dome just to process which was really common when people would do that a lot and God highlighted this gal to

1:08:09

Rochelle and she went over and sat with her and um held her and blessed her as a mother

1:08:15

and all I started crying right there at the dishwashing station because it was like God had God had it God was more

1:08:22

invested in her getting that blessing of a mother than I was I was invited to be part of that but God had my back and had

1:08:29

this young gals back and boy what a testimony to the Synergy of the spirit

1:08:34

um just between the encounter tent and the coffee Dome there wasn't the communication going back and forth

1:08:40

verbally between us but boy the spirit made it known what was going on in those places and if one needed to pick up

1:08:46

where someone else left off so great learning experience for me in that and

1:08:52

Faith Builder too and how often did that work with body art I was just gonna say

1:08:57

that one of the things on our menu board was inspired art and so we had artists

1:09:03

who had actually asked God for a prophetic picture and they would paint that somewhere on

1:09:10

the person's body and then they would prophesy to them about that body art and

1:09:15

it would speak right into their heart just like an arrow and so often there was such a Synergy between

1:09:22

um the different aspects of our camp is that person then would go and have a

1:09:27

regular encounter like um to go from the coffee Dome where they had body art and then go into the

1:09:33

encounter tent and the people didn't see their body or that they just got painted but they would have the same exact word

1:09:40

that they were just given with the with the picture and then they would show them oh my gosh yeah what they just

1:09:46

painted on me yeah and vice versa that would happen you know they would go to encounter first they'd get some

1:09:51

incredible word and then they'd go get body art and she would she would paint exactly what she the person just

1:09:57

encountered without knowing yeah I had a great story actually Katie and I were on

1:10:02

a team together and this was um early on and I remember you'd gotten a picture of

1:10:07

this gal that she was like a a water jug but there was a crack and so it was like

1:10:13

all this stuff in here just was leaking out it was a picture and it just kept leaking out and it was and so it was a

1:10:19

healing Journey that we took her on to heal this place in her heart where it was it was not a good leaking out I

1:10:25

can't remember the exact gist of it so she goes from our encounter and into the coffee Dome doesn't share what the

1:10:32

encounter was and meet up the team member in there who was painting on her painted a water pitcher on the scal's

1:10:38

arm wow no crack yeah and not knowing what had happened and we heard about that later and it was like mind blown

1:10:45

like yes and she her mind was blown oh yeah absolutely yeah yeah this is great

1:10:51

yeah I had to do that I've actually got the picture of the coffee Dome here let me share it real quick yeah I've got a

1:10:56

bunch of pictures actually it's here we go that's the coffee dome right yeah yeah

1:11:01

yes we've got the speakers and the DJ set up what was that no DJ we just said no yeah

1:11:09

speakers with music got it yes I created a uh the music the playlist and we would

1:11:15

just play it was uh I had a new several playlists that I could play during the

1:11:22

day and uh we played that it's a variety of Music we did have a real we have a

1:11:29

lot of wonderful Encounters in the Dome the coffee Dome one I think we all

1:11:34

remember is there and of course the coffee Dome we pray through it and cleanse it and so

1:11:41

on but still things get through and I'm sure there was one day when there's one spot one specific area in the coffee

1:11:48

Dome that was attracting licentiousness and

1:11:54

um naked yeah it kind of sensuality kind of things and and so we had to monitor

1:12:02

all that of course and so we're going hmm there's something up here and so uh

1:12:07

one of the gals had maybe it was was Rochelle I forget who it was Rochelle

1:12:12

had the sense of um we need a mom no no no she she went

1:12:18

she she tried all of her tricks okay didn't know what to do and so she went

1:12:23

to our kitchen lady named amphora and said please come help us this is what's

1:12:30

happening we don't know what to do and so amphora goes into the Dome and she's like praying going God what am I

1:12:36

supposed to do I don't know what to do and as she walks into the Dome she hears the Lord say to her children don't like

1:12:44

to sin in front of their mothers and so she felt like she was supposed to

1:12:49

release a mother's blessing over that spot and so she did that she released a mother's blessing over that spot and the

1:12:56

licenses never happened again oh wow a creative solution yeah yeah

1:13:02

yeah I think this was one of the things that I remember being really struck by is you know for me spending all the time

1:13:09

in Secular Progressive new age whatever mystical culture you know the perception of energy is very real

1:13:15

right and then and once you once I got a an understanding of that it's not something that I could ever forget or

1:13:22

deny was a real was a real thing right and so um and so I think what you guys did so

1:13:28

well is you had that awareness you had that understanding which gave you uh not

1:13:34

only the ability to have spiritual insight into what was going on around you but also to communicate with people

1:13:39

from the culture about this phenomenon that usually gets dismissed by so many other people that you can actually feel

1:13:46

energy things can be invested with the energy of of someone or something or an act or something like that but a lot of

1:13:52

people don't have that um that sense and so for you going out to burning man if you don't have that

1:13:58

sense you don't develop your that sense you'll be in real danger because it's real and then also for people that are

1:14:04

looking to communicate on that level about this way that they have of perceiving reality quite accurately not

1:14:10

always but sometimes quite accurately you know it you can meet them on the level that they're at especially

1:14:16

especially me to be able to understand that yeah the coexisting spiritual realm is very

1:14:24

real in both kingdoms yeah say more say more about that unpacked yes and yeah

1:14:32

well well you know and I I prefer the excuse me

1:14:37

put the put the weight on the Kingdom of Light God's kingdom yeah because

1:14:42

we all know too well how people get afraid of curses and and things that

1:14:48

satanists and witches might do but um listen in God's kingdom a curse

1:14:54

causeless shall not come in a scripture shall not land you know

1:15:00

um unless there is a cause and then but we have the out of repentance you know and we also know that who's given us all

1:15:07

authority over all works of the enemy you know so we don't have to be subject

1:15:14

to that we can change the atmosphere we can train the curses on ground but we

1:15:19

could also change the curses over people and we don't have to live with that stuff and when there's an intentionality

1:15:25

of 35 people on a team and a big yes in other words we're agreed in faith that's

1:15:33

a big yes it's easier to operate that way you know we're not wading through a

1:15:39

mass of unbelief one of the one of the unfortunate things about many of our

1:15:45

Christian circles is there's a lot of unbelief as to what God can do or who he is yeah so it's very hard to Wade

1:15:52

through a wall of unbelief and Jesus you know there's several times when you

1:15:59

have to take out the people that didn't believe would I think it was his

1:16:04

mother-in-law to heal the mother-in-law and said you people leave you're interfering with the ability to heal and

1:16:11

then there were whole cities that Jesus couldn't go because they did not their unbelief was so strong and you know if

1:16:19

your unbelief is really strong then you must be believing in something else like fear right so that's not good right

1:16:26

Peter's mother-in-law Peter's mother-in-law not Jesus's mother I was gonna ask I was like do I say

1:16:33

that's fine yeah they've got it yeah boy

1:16:38

I don't remember which book that was in yeah yeah

1:16:45

anyways uh we just know that it's it's our privilege and joy to change

1:16:54

call it change that sounds strange but change the atmosphere you know if it's dark we come to bring light in fact we

1:17:01

are the light of the world just our presence when we personalize that and be very

1:17:07

intentional because Jesus said it you're the light of the world yeah what does that mean that means you are radiating

1:17:14

something that changes the land the atmosphere the people around you we were also very intentional about

1:17:22

um creating the atmosphere within our camp where the presence of God would be

1:17:27

the you know the fullest and that that's also part of the story of you know the

1:17:32

progression of things is the art because Burning Man is an art festival and the

1:17:38

first few years I went we were you know the ladies in the in the camp were just decorating the tent

1:17:44

with some pretty fabrics and you know just kind of throwing it together but God put it on my heart about my third

1:17:51

year to be more intentional and create something specific and he put it on my

1:17:57

heart to do a tree of life and so he gave me the download of how to do that how to create this tree of life

1:18:03

with these you know branches and leaves hanging down and everything and it absolutely transformed the atmosphere

1:18:10

that was in that encounter tint just like uh when God gave specific

1:18:17

directions with his Tabernacle or his Temple he he had all kinds of specific

1:18:22

art he wanted created in there and then it was a place for him to dwell and when you go through that

1:18:30

intentionality to partner with god with his creativity what do you want to release in this space artistically then

1:18:37

his presence comes and and it just transformed we call it atmosphere design and by the time you came along we had

1:18:43

done the tree of life for four years and God gave us a new theme which was the visions of Ezekiel so you came in to

1:18:51

whirlwinds and rainbows and creatures with eyes all around a lot of strange

1:18:56

images Wheels within Wheels within Wheels yeah that was what I needed what

1:19:03

I needed to see say more because you had mentioned early Ezekiel Ezekiel earlier in the conversation

1:19:10

you know what if the very images from the Bible that God tells us to do what

1:19:17

if there's a whole power and ability to shift directions or motion there's a lot of

1:19:23

motion yeah you know this is just to get people thinking you know what if because

1:19:29

again that coexisting spiritual realm is because the bail is rent and we have

1:19:35

access to the Heavenly realm of God these things become more real to us it's

1:19:41

it's more than Fabric in color yeah yeah you had an encounter with that face

1:19:49

of Jesus yes I did yeah like wearing goggles yes yes he did that's the wild part

1:19:57

because you know I I I I tell the story and it would be easy easy it would be

1:20:03

easy to dismiss what I saw if it was just if it was just a face from a

1:20:08

painting like thoughts can be transferred between people right like you could be standing behind me Katie I

1:20:14

remember you had your hands on either side of my head and you could be concentrating on the face of Jesus and maybe I'd pick up on it right like a

1:20:20

carbon copy but that wasn't what it was it's like a man walked up to me wearing goggles like wearing Burning Man goggles

1:20:26

to protect himself from the dust like what do you what what do you even what do I even do with that like

1:20:33

exactly exactly yeah and that was part of like the four faces that was part of

1:20:38

what Ezekiel Saw that was part of your your decorative shift let's say yeah it was the living creatures with the faces

1:20:44

so the face of an ox the face of a lion the face of an eagle in the face of a man and you know it doesn't say in there

1:20:52

that the face of a man is a basic Jesus but I decided when I painted that to use

1:20:57

akiana's painting of Jesus as my model and it was just a sketch it wasn't like

1:21:04

a full painting it was just a sketch of a man's face but you're not the only one that recognized it as Jesus there was

1:21:10

another woman that came in and came to my my encounter group one day and she

1:21:17

wanted Deliverance she asked she plain out said I have two demons can you get

1:21:22

rid of them said oh yeah we can we can do that if

1:21:28

we're gonna do that I need to use the name Jesus is that okay with you and she said oh yes I recognized him

1:21:34

when I came in I saw him on that thing I'm like wow I never said that was Jesus

1:21:41

it was yeah it was apparent yeah I could kind of tell it was Jesus but I still remember Katie I asked you because yeah

1:21:48

you asked me is that Jesus I knew it but I was like okay I don't want to walk out of this moment this is the thought that

1:21:53

was going through my head is I don't want to walk out of this moment and then later be like okay maybe that was some guy who was the founder of the camp or

1:22:00

something like that some human some some other person right so I wanted to make sure so that's why I asked but do you

1:22:07

have that picture well in the the lineup of pictures you have that picture of you in front of the the face of Jesus that

1:22:13

manner oh yeah they'll pull that up right now let's see whoever had the camera got

1:22:19

some great pictures yeah oh man let's go through yeah so this one right this one of me on my knees yeah yes yeah

1:22:26

yeah and my and you can see like you can see the dirt on top of my head because I found my head down and you can see the

1:22:31

dust on my feet and everything yeah yeah and then when I took the picture with you that which I can see there also I

1:22:38

asked if you wanted to wipe because I said oh you've got some Playa dust and you said no I want to leave it there yeah yeah the one right above there yeah

1:22:45

this one yeah you can see it on your face yeah yeah and the and the and the gifts that you

1:22:52

guys gave the necklaces I'm wearing yeah you guys made those for the people who came and you also gave me apply a name I

1:22:58

never I hadn't I'd been three times and I hadn't been given one before yeah oh what was it oh was it

1:23:05

yeah because you're like a strong Oak yes I was uh I was definitely a

1:23:12

different version of myself back then as well which I think you'd probably see in the photo oh yeah totally very different

1:23:18

completely different and then so listen you've got this one you've got this photo here what's this this is Barb this

1:23:23

is you with somebody yeah at home with Mother's blessings yeah yeah there we go yeah loving on a burner

1:23:30

and so as as the so here's some you have some photos of Burning Man this is what the you know oh there's there's the man

1:23:36

I don't know what year that would have been but the man was still on the ground so I guess it was probably

1:23:41

2000s somewhere yeah yeah I don't know and then there's the man again oh that

1:23:48

was the da Vinci's yeah and she's Workshop Adventures yep oh man

1:23:56

yeah I mean I think for people who haven't been before like there's a lot of infrastructure that goes into burning

1:24:02

man and one of the things that I wanted to say earlier was that you know if you were doing Ministry at a place like um

1:24:07

North Korea or China like those countries you know and the cities in them they're fixed in in place and they

1:24:15

don't go anywhere Beijing is not going anywhere right you can go there and it's it's consistent

1:24:21

um from year to year day to day hour to hour but Burning Man really only exists for the public for one week out of the

1:24:28

year and it's constantly changing and it's very much while there are a lot of principles that stay the same it's also

1:24:34

a moving Target right to be able to be able to so when you talk about going into the culture like yes there are

1:24:40

consistent aspects of the culture that are durable from year to year but at the same time every year you went in I

1:24:47

imagine you went into somewhat very different environments especially as it grew like if you were there from 2002

1:24:54

sorry 2004 to 2016 I went in 2003 so I know what it was like back then and then

1:25:00

I came back in 2013 and I Met You in 2015 but that 10-year period I went

1:25:06

through inflationary growth I remember in 2003 it was like 30 000 people you could walk the whole festival and didn't

1:25:12

need a bike when I went back in 2013 forget walking anywhere and the festival was like 60 or it doubled in size so

1:25:20

what was like what was that like being on the ground year over year watching the festival grow and change it kind of

1:25:25

become that moving Target Shangri-La yeah I don't know we just sort of we

1:25:31

just ourselves you know that's true yeah we just rode with it it's like you said

1:25:37

if you wanted to go look at it when it's 80 000 people it's a lot different yeah

1:25:42

yeah I won't say though that I mean as as a Believer who sees what sin does to

1:25:50

people it is it was very disturbing to see the growth to see how that was

1:25:57

spreading and the lawlessness that was being bred out there and then also being

1:26:03

taken from burning man out into the world yeah it's it's grieving yeah

1:26:09

that's true because there was an intentionality too that we were aware of by The Burning Man leadership to do

1:26:16

forums across the world and to kind of spread that sort of gospel of uh

1:26:22

yeah the gospel of Burning Man so to speak so that's happened the weight of evil

1:26:29

was growing so okay let's let's talk about that for a minute because I

1:26:35

remember when I went out in 2003 and the festival had kind of this wild west kind

1:26:40

of spirit but there was like a when I say there's a lawfulness you know at least everyone's like we don't really

1:26:45

know what we're doing so here's some fire and here's some plywood and here's some crazy kind of lasers and art like cool yeah it's fun but when I went back

1:26:52

in 2013 it felt like the festival had quote gone pro right and then there was

1:26:58

a solidity to it and there was a permissiveness there was a darker permissiveness to it like the wild west

1:27:05

has a permissiveness but I would say it also had a sense of like experimentation within defined

1:27:12

boundaries somehow but then it felt like 2013 that it flipped and I don't know

1:27:17

how to articulate it but I did feel that the evil had grown quite significant and only continued to from 2013 2015 up

1:27:25

until up until the present day like talk about that experience because that's the that's the the discernment that I'm

1:27:32

trying to have is like I don't think everything there was all bad all the time but it certainly felt over time

1:27:38

there was more bad more of the time as the years went on sure yeah all I can

1:27:43

say is I've I'm I've always been a very sensitive person to atmospheres to

1:27:49

what's in people you know I'm I'm a Feeler and so I have to say in the 10

1:27:55

years I went I grew so much but every single year I would enter the Playa and be you know my

1:28:03

senses were accosted by what was out there and so as we'd be setting up our

1:28:08

camp I'm like oh God why am I here again [Laughter]

1:28:14

and then you know by the time we get rolling with the ministry then you're you know you're refocused on why you're

1:28:20

there again and you know and the grace of God comes over you but yeah you have to deal with that you have to deal with

1:28:26

that yeah well if you look at the 10 principles that Rob's got them printed out here the 10 principles of Burning Man I remember reading that before I

1:28:33

went out the first time and really they've got some pretty altruistic principles that the the event was

1:28:38

founded upon yeah but um what ended up happening is it just degenerated into a big orgy yeah uh so by the time we

1:28:46

retired in 2017 uh the tide had turned to the point that even the true burners

1:28:52

like the people who'd been around for a long time since the beginning of it they were having been a hard time with the

1:28:58

direction that it had gone because it they've gotten away from this kind of radical generosity radical Community I

1:29:05

mean the the principles essential core principles are not bad a bad thing but

1:29:11

what got built upon that was just yuckier and yuckier as they just got darker and darker as the years went on

1:29:17

yeah the principles were went by the wayside

1:29:22

uh and that people going really didn't consider them that much it seemed like

1:29:28

to me it was more like oh we're going to Burning Man and we're gonna let anything

1:29:33

fly yeah throw off all Innovations and just yeah you know dive into all the sin

1:29:39

yep you know that they didn't do in normal life yeah I remember one one year

1:29:45

there was a group of Ira young Irish uh

1:29:50

kid that had I think they had graduated high school whatever that is over there

1:29:55

and kind of were young beginning College when they a group of them came over and

1:30:01

one of the things that they were going to do while in the States was go to burning man it's like you know it had

1:30:07

grown worldwide to that kind of a oh let's go to Burning Man and you know let

1:30:13

experience anything and everything in it I I don't think any one of them really

1:30:19

uh um would say they they could quote any

1:30:24

of those principles yeah yeah it wasn't why they were there yeah yeah can you

1:30:30

read the principles real quick just so everyone knows what they are um sure

1:30:35

[Music] so um

1:30:41

radical inclusion No Stranger you know got uh we we worked

1:30:48

under when when we're the first year we were there we were with IHOP and the leader Randy Bollinger he was actually a

1:30:55

pastor and he actually befriended um Larry Harvard Larry Harvey the the

1:31:01

founder Visionary he befriended him I mean they became Buds and there was a

1:31:06

video that came out called Pastor on the Playa they interviewed him and and he

1:31:11

went and said you know God can work with any of these principles yep and so the

1:31:17

bigger thing as I read these is choice and how you do that people got at the

1:31:22

center or do you put your own desires at the center so radical inclusion next one

1:31:28

is gifting we're all about God's greatest gift you're all about gifting uh D

1:31:34

commodification um in order to preserve the spirit of

1:31:40

gifting our community seeks to create social environments that are un mediated by commercial sponsorships transactions

1:31:47

or advertising and I remember in the early days you have to even block lettering like U-Haul on a trailer they

1:31:55

didn't want any commercial thing at all uh radical self-reliance Burning Man

1:32:01

encouraged individuals to discover exercise and rely on their inner

1:32:06

resources radical self-expression uh unique recognizing the unique gifts

1:32:14

of the individual and no one is like you and you should have Liberty to exercise that well you can see where that can go

1:32:21

off the cliff or produce beautiful art you know communal effort our community

1:32:27

creates Cooperative cooperation and collaboration we strive to produce promote and protect social networks

1:32:34

public spaces works of art methods of communication civic responsibility we value Civil

1:32:41

Society committee members who organize events should assume responsibility for public

1:32:49

welfare um

1:32:55

makes sense I'll read that again you broke up for just a second God created when yeah leaving no Trace was

1:33:02

yeah yeah yeah our participation is committed to

1:33:09

radically participatory ethic and uh

1:33:15

I only wish churches were more like pets All In

1:33:21

and then immediacy uh immediate experience is in many ways the most important Touchstone of value in our

1:33:28

culture we seek to overcome barriers that stand between us and recognition of our inner selves the reality of those

1:33:34

around us participation in society and contact with a natural world exceeding

1:33:41

human powers no idea can substitute for this experience of immediacy

1:33:49

yeah I mean you can see yeah I mean they're they're good for what they are but definitely it's easy to see how you

1:33:55

could build anything off of that especially the what is radical self-expression because my experience of

1:34:01

going to Burning Man from secular culture was at at least by 2013 2015. it had become that however you choose to

1:34:10

express yourself is is innately spiritual and therefore

1:34:15

good so if you want to go out there and you want to and and you can be whoever you are in in the everyday life and then

1:34:22

you go out to Burning Man you go quote home right home was where you belong not the 51 weeks out of the year but that

1:34:28

one weekend of the year you're home and then you go out to Burning Man and then if you want to walk around naked and

1:34:33

paint yourself blue and get into orgies and do all the drugs and do all the stuff that is your self that is your radical self-expression your

1:34:40

self-expression is inherently spiritual and if inherently spiritual it is inherently good and that that definitely

1:34:47

grew and even to the point where it became almost expected then you know

1:34:53

back in 2003 I remember you didn't have to dress up if you did cool you know it was encouraged but by 2013 15 there was

1:35:00

like a uniform it's kind of expected you had a furry vest and if you're not doing that then you're not properly

1:35:05

participating so it was like almost this real subtle air of shaming around like no you're supposed to be crazier if

1:35:11

you're not crazy you're not at Burning Man it's like why do I gotta be that I want to be that way like I'm here for

1:35:16

different reasons but it almost it almost tried to start pulling the worst out of people and I think it succeeded in many ways

1:35:23

for for an art community who said we all have to look like a Mad Max movie yeah

1:35:29

right steampunk whatever yeah yeah who said that was a standard yeah yeah

1:35:35

so as you guys you guys would do your your ministry work during the day what was it like when you would go riding

1:35:41

around at night like I knowing what we've talked about that the day is full of so many protocols and so much

1:35:47

spiritual cleansing and so much keeping yourself safe within your own God protected space then you really Venture

1:35:53

into the the Heart of Darkness in some ways the night that burning man would be coming this is where we went yeah

1:36:00

we wanted to see the cool art we didn't go into the dark dark places yeah we

1:36:06

just stayed away from that yeah we I remember one year going to see we typically we'd want to see the man and

1:36:12

maybe see the temple um and the one year was a carnival I don't remember what the theme was but it

1:36:18

was a Carnival Carnival of mirrors yeah I mean carnivals are already creepy enough and then you throw the Burning

1:36:23

Man element at it and we went to see the man but it was amazed that you had to go through and we didn't realize we got

1:36:30

into it and it got darker and we'd always travel in groups also we didn't go anywhere Alone

1:36:35

um and then um we realized uh actually this is too too far too dark and trying

1:36:41

to get out of there um I kind of started to panic I was like looking the walls were so tall I was thinking can I climb that like I want it

1:36:47

out so bad because it was just too far it was too dark so we were we were

1:36:52

careful where we went and right yeah plus I don't know it was it every night

1:36:58

was different but usually when I would only go out maybe once maybe twice uh on

1:37:05

the Playa at night do because I wanted to see the the cars and the and like

1:37:10

they said the the man and so on but I you know once I saw that it was like

1:37:16

okay well I'm just good with chilling in our camp and sitting around and chatting

1:37:21

with people drinking some wine and oftentimes we were so exhausted yeah by the end of the day because we would be

1:37:27

ministering heavily all day I didn't want to go out I went out once just to

1:37:33

see the cool things and then I would stay at home yeah and rest I'm an old guy I want to go to bed at night yeah by

1:37:40

my last couple years I didn't go out at night anymore I didn't I don't think I went out the

1:37:45

last time there was a couple times when a couple of our team members their son had an art car yeah and he would take us

1:37:52

out and that was different because we were all together on this car and it just felt a lot more protected so that

1:37:57

was fun now there was one year when uh just down the street not too far from us

1:38:03

um there was a little camp that was showing these old movies and and we did

1:38:08

Venture down there and watched uh Princess Bride Princess Bride Monty Python the whole it was a quotable movie

1:38:14

so the expectation is that you could quote it the entire movie if you wanted to which was so cool that was fun yeah

1:38:20

yeah yeah there were a couple camps we would find that were lighter yeah uh and there was a wine Camp down the way a

1:38:27

couple years yeah and they had like corn hole in the hula hoops and um but that was pretty clean you know

1:38:33

the bottom line is if you give people the freedom to do whatever they want to do without being judged there are people

1:38:40

who will Choose Wisely and people who will choose badly yeah yeah so you find

1:38:46

it all out there oh yeah yeah and as you guys started to get more well known and people started to realize like

1:38:53

there's this thing going on over there what was that like when people started to figure out kind of who you guys who

1:38:58

you guys were I mean there must have been a moment where that happened yeah but you know I think

1:39:04

by then um they have they honored us they respected us I mean I even in the part

1:39:11

of the early years uh part of our learning curve is they would encourage us they would go oh

1:39:18

no don't leave early you're part of our community you know and we you know we told them

1:39:23

listen we're kind of done when they're going to burn the man and yeah Saturday night but but you know they they would

1:39:33

they did a lot to say you're you are part of us you're burners and indeed we had to embrace that to go no we're

1:39:40

we fit we were sent into this culture to fit in a way but but with a difference

1:39:47

you know yeah so they honored that yeah and we definitely developed relationships with certain other camps

1:39:53

there was one camp in particular Rhythm wave there were five rhythms dance camp and um

1:39:59

what's that ecstatic dance where you just kind of move your body yeah yeah uh

1:40:04

they would actually send their new team members to have an encounter and they would say go Monday or Tuesday first

1:40:12

part of the week because that we weren't as busy um and so the first couple of days it was really common for us to have rhythm

1:40:18

waiver after Rhythm weather in our encounters because they just had them all come or the people who had been before they knew show up early in the

1:40:25

week it's easier to get in and get an encounter so we would see them and then we would um we got to the point where we'd have a meal with them every year

1:40:32

um so really neat relationship developed there with that we also had people that said that told us they they would come

1:40:39

to Burning Man in order to come to our campus yes it was their privilege to come to our camp Yeah Yeah Carl or

1:40:46

people just you know get so blown away they go

1:40:51

I don't have to see the rest of Burning Man they need to go home or they just do what Andrew just said they just hang out

1:40:57

in the coffee Dome all the time yeah so they sort of adopted us yeah and I think

1:41:03

some of those that seemed like there were also some that were repeaters to our camp that also began to leave early

1:41:11

before the burning of a man because it was getting so dark even too dark for them it's like nah we're done yeah

1:41:18

yeah I completely get that um you know it's it's I I I think of you

1:41:25

guys as as odd as as odd as it sounds embodying the best principles of Burning

1:41:30

Man right like like you took it in the right direction you know rather than towards darkness and self-indulgence and

1:41:37

and uh and uh what we might call spiritual materialism or material spiritualism right like oh what I do

1:41:43

with my body is spiritual right spiritual materialism you guys actually took it in in the right direction embodied all the same principles but in

1:41:50

the direction of of light and goodness and beauty and virtue and of course God but you didn't wear God on the outside

1:41:56

like there wasn't a big cross at the front you know what I mean it wasn't it wasn't like a church it was you wore

1:42:02

these principles in who you were and what you did and let them speak for themselves in a way towards virtue so it

1:42:08

makes sense to me that people would come and experience what you have to offer and be like yeah I've gotten everything I need out of Burning Man other than

1:42:14

like oh look at the cool Blinky things and then I go home right right yeah and it all goes back to that

1:42:20

hunger inherent and so many of the people that spirituality was there

1:42:26

and basically our mission was to find it to meet it and to redefine it redefine

1:42:33

it for people over there or give it an interpretation if they didn't know what

1:42:38

they were feeling yeah that's the beauty of God I think he I think he likes doing that you know he

1:42:46

put the hunger there originally you put put the empty hole in the human heart that needs to be filled only within yeah

1:42:53

yeah with that note it's 110 and I have an appointment at 1 30. oh

1:43:00

I have a couple more questions but I mean I can take for the rest of the three of you and Andrea if you have to go by all means or we can wrap it up now

1:43:06

if you guys have to all go together but it's no problem they can carry on okay it's lovely to see you thank you for

1:43:12

thank you great to be part of this thank you good to see you

1:43:17

oh nice Kim yes oh no I said hi

1:43:23

hi Andrew yeah so I I think for me the one part of

1:43:28

my story and we'll just go for just a few more minutes if that's okay the one part of the story that I don't often talk about is how I actually how I

1:43:35

actually should we move our we look a little lopsided now exactly yeah is

1:43:41

actually how I came reorganizing the frame

1:43:51

all right anyway we feel better now perfect more balanced right feng shui is

1:43:58

actually how I came to even meet the guy who directed me to your camp in the first place so as I've I've mentioned

1:44:05

other other places I was dating this woman for a number of years and that relationship ended and this was at the

1:44:11

end of August 2015 and suddenly it's like well I'm not in this relationship anymore I'm okay with camping in tents

1:44:18

she was more of an RV kind of girl and I was like well now I can go so I just decided I felt a strong call to go to

1:44:24

Burning Man and so I went and people are always selling tickets at the last minute but the thing is I rode with a

1:44:30

bunch of people in with an RV and we we wrote we wrote Into the to the festival and the thing was no one no one knew

1:44:38

that I was coming you know so it's like suddenly I'm just showing up normally people spend a year planning what camp they're going to be

1:44:43

with and they contribute to camps monetarily and organizationally I'm just showing up kind of like as an orphan

1:44:48

right and so I'm in this RV full of guys I don't remember who's in the RV and they don't know where to park either not

1:44:54

because of me because they don't know where they're going right and so the RV as we're driving onto the Playa tries to

1:45:02

stop at three or four different locations right now and I know that I have friends I have the coordinates for

1:45:07

my friends camps are all over all over the Playa from like you know uh 11

1:45:12

o'clock you know on the clock face it's five o'clock and I think like you know three or four o'clock and so trying to

1:45:19

figure out where to park and we end up just parking the first place they could find a spot to fit their RV because it

1:45:26

was like Wednesday right and so by that point the festival's kind of filling up and finding places to park your RV

1:45:32

closer to the center versus The Rim you know is really difficult so we park in this uh particular spot that isn't part

1:45:40

of anyone's Camp it's just a free space so that meant I was closer to one Camp than another one and we were drove

1:45:46

around for like an hour and a half trying to find a place to park and that meant I was closer to one camp and then another so I'm like okay I can either

1:45:52

hitch a ride an art car all the way to the other side of the festival to meet up with one group of group of friends or

1:45:58

I can just carry all my stuff two or three blocks to this other Camp it's like okay I'll just carry my stuff and

1:46:04

see what they have and so if the RV had parked somewhere else and because I went there and set up when I did and put my

1:46:10

tent right where it was went to sleep woke up in the morning and then that morning is when I met the guy who

1:46:16

directed meteor Camp because he was an attempt next to me like if I had arrived if I had if we had parked on the other

1:46:22

side of the Playa I would I never would have I mean who knows right like you know God makes all things work right right you know what the coincidence

1:46:30

Coincidence of me of the RV struggling to find a place to park so we could park

1:46:35

in that space so that I could be at that camp and meet that guy the morning after

1:46:40

he had seen you guys yeah all those pieces lining up that got me there in the first place yeah I mean it's it

1:46:47

blows my mind yeah I love that kind of hindsight when you see the hand of God orchestrating things behind the scenes

1:46:53

that you're completely unaware of and the outcome is phenomous it is mind-blowing yeah

1:46:59

yeah and then you know just last couple questions like are you still other than

1:47:05

me are you still in touch with anybody from the um from the event or do you ever get feedback of like oh I met you

1:47:11

guys and you set my life in a whole new direction or yeah yeah I heard from a um

1:47:17

a guy that he lives in New York City he had a radical in common with God uh the

1:47:23

year we were with him um yeah he just was wondering if we were going and

1:47:29

um I don't perceive you know it was a slight chat and he was getting ready to

1:47:34

get on a plane to come here it was like a last minute getting ready to go to burning man it was a last minute thing

1:47:41

so we didn't carry on a big chat but yeah I thought it was significant he got

1:47:46

in touch yeah there was a one man from Rhythm wave um named Rich actually I was involved in

1:47:54

an encounter with him it was my newbie year and coming to find out it was his also and Rob had been telling me

1:48:01

there'll come a moment when the penny will drop which is that moment when you just it's like something in you just

1:48:09

grasp into what's happening there the move of God and um it was in the encounter with Rich it's when it

1:48:15

happened and um I was undone by it and he was undone by it he went over in the coffee Dome afterwards apparently and

1:48:21

was in there weeping and crying and anyway the next year he came back for an encounter and randomly was seated with

1:48:29

my encounter team and it was that moment of recognition and excitement to see each other well after that every year

1:48:35

when he came he would actually ask to be seated with me and watching the process of him coming to the Lord over the years

1:48:43

how so the encounters that he had with us were significant touch points so he

1:48:49

and I still keep in touch Loosely you guys ran into him randomly at a Native

1:48:54

American uh event that you guys went to yeah yeah um and then also there was one year

1:49:01

where there was this young German gal that came to our camp and she had come with her sister and her sister was

1:49:08

wholly embracing The Burning Man experience and this gal was completely freaked out by the Bernie Mac experience

1:49:14

and ended up coming I think every day for an encounter um as she hung out in

1:49:20

the coffee Dome a lot we were a safe space for her um she and I have been communicating a little bit also which has been really

1:49:26

cool so um I know and there was a maybe not so much now but um for a few

1:49:34

years there was a another gal in San Francisco and she might be in touch with

1:49:39

some of the other uh team members yeah uh yeah and Shannon and yeah yeah

1:49:46

I think there's some of the other team members that are in touch with some of

1:49:51

the people they came across as well yeah like this yeah so you know it's one of the things that we've learned actually

1:49:56

through the ministry um that I mean me learning it through the dream interpretation Ministry you

1:50:02

guys had already had a lot of experience with that is the whole thing of God entrusts us with this whatever

1:50:07

Encounters in front of us are responsible for that and then beyond that it's up to God where he's going to take things so learning to release

1:50:15

to God the responsibility for what happens after that yeah um because like

1:50:21

I said it's pretty hard sometimes to you know watch them walk out of our encounter tent back out into whatever

1:50:27

was going to happen out there but uh we just you know would do what we were called to do in the little time that we

1:50:33

had with them and then beyond that it's up to God you know and I learned so much also about the the reach of God's arm

1:50:40

you know if if he can direct people to our camp at Burning Man to get that

1:50:46

significant of an encounter he can do it anywhere yeah yeah exactly

1:50:51

and I just one one more question is is uh I don't I don't want to ask but that means that I that I that I I have to ask

1:50:58

is that I want to walk through my encounter through your eyes because I've told the story through my eyes so many

1:51:03

times and I think about it all the time so like just just walk through like this guy shows up in front of you in like

1:51:10

three and a half hours later and then five years later if there's anything you want to share for that that um yeah

1:51:15

please feel free you know for for from my perspective as

1:51:21

I was thinking about this I I loved how it unfolded because I could see uh when

1:51:30

you sat down we get started and you know I could I could feel and sense and see

1:51:37

um your and feel that that thing in the spirit where you're you're coming

1:51:45

forward and you're sharing some stuff and then you pull back this back and forth and how how much can we go and it

1:51:51

was like almost like an onion you know like we get through

1:51:56

one thing and you go wow you kind of be really impacted and then yeah yeah I

1:52:01

want some more and we would just keep going and I remember it was a beautiful

1:52:06

thing um and I remember which I really highly

1:52:12

value this will because not everybody would do this but when that point in

1:52:18

time when you said uh I forget the words that you use but basically you were

1:52:24

talking about your relationship with men and father figures and so on and and uh

1:52:29

questioned Larry yeah and I thought that was brilliant I was I still to this day

1:52:34

it's like that was so cool that you had the courage you had the fortitude go no I'm

1:52:41

here now and I'm not gonna bail because I'm I'm questioning this guy's

1:52:48

intentions or whatever and you just brought it out and that gave Larry the

1:52:53

opening to be able to express his heart to you and I just thought that was a beautiful beautiful thing and I loved

1:53:00

how you how that common that coming forward and coming back and this whole

1:53:06

thing and and going yeah no that was good I think I can take some more let's go yeah yeah yeah yeah your

1:53:13

voraciousness came through in that encounter yeah you were actually an easy encounter in that way because of your

1:53:21

hunger or your willingness your openness uh that we definitely had encounters over the years where we were really

1:53:27

having to try to draw people out and you were there to you were like bring it and

1:53:34

I just and the of the unfolding is a great way of saying it you know we we

1:53:40

wouldn't know it was kind of a weird sensation to be sitting in our seats and waiting for someone to be seated in

1:53:45

front of us like from one encounter the next we had no idea idea what was going to be seated with us and I would always

1:53:52

try to guess you know like you were saying you were looking and seeing which team you want to be with I would try to guess like okay which one are they going

1:53:58

to seat next and yeah I was almost always wrong but anyway not knowing what was going to happen and then to have you sit down with just your um

1:54:06

just openness and hunger and um it was an incredible faith-building encounter

1:54:12

for me and probably for you also just walking through the whole thing and then when you shared that thing about seeing

1:54:19

Jesus with the dust mask and the goggles that was kind of one of those things

1:54:25

that kind of like oh gee like he would show up I mean on the plyo full gear you

1:54:33

know so we're getting wrecked right along with you in that encounter it was amazing

1:54:39

when uh when I had that that inspiration was like just dropped to take you over

1:54:45

and and lead you over it's like yeah take him over and lead him over and introduce him and it was like that whole

1:54:53

thing was like almost as I think about it now it's almost like a slow-mo play I

1:54:59

Can Read revisit that and it was such it impacted me profoundly as well as you

1:55:06

hit the floor you know you just hit the floor and and coming undone there and

1:55:11

like I was coming it was a powerful powerful moment uh

1:55:18

enveloped with the infused with the power of God in in that moment and who

1:55:26

you can't help but be wrecked basically and that was a powerful moment for me as

1:55:32

as well as for you it was so so I'm so I feel privileged to have that

1:55:39

moment with you mm-hmm yeah and then having you come up here for Christmas yes and um I remember I

1:55:47

don't even know how many times throughout the course of the time you were here you kept grabbing your head and saying too much goodness too much

1:55:55

goodness you couldn't process what you were experiencing

1:56:01

um but you know when you see somebody encountering the the reality of the

1:56:07

bigness and the love of the father and you see them like trying to even process

1:56:12

and like their physical body can't even handle what they're experiencing it does

1:56:17

something to you too you know it's like a it refreshes our own faith to see that

1:56:22

kind of a thing and uh what a a joy watching your journey and um I remember

1:56:29

you bringing up the thing about traveling and you had this in your heart uh to do this traveling and so Katie and

1:56:35

I as moms we're like well why wouldn't you do it like blessing you to go and explore and to live this stream not

1:56:44

knowing it was going to be this five-year journey into every possible spiritual

1:56:52

experience and Katie and I have talked about this I had a lot of oh God oh God moments reading your Facebook post and

1:56:59

Katie said she's just had a lot of faith I did I I had the Assurance I mean it

1:57:04

wasn't like I was happy you were you know I was like oh yeah he's gonna try that it was like no I just had this

1:57:11

assurance that that uh Jesus was with you and that he he wasn't gonna

1:57:19

let you go yeah that he was covering you somehow he was protecting you and I was

1:57:25

like I just have that faith and that Assurance even though it's like I'd squirm a little bit he's doing this okay

1:57:31

no no he's God's got this yeah yeah I remember you you uh telling the story

1:57:38

about I think you might have messaged just about it you were in I think it was Australia and you were in some town that

1:57:45

was known for its new age offerings Iron Bay maybe okay you're walking down the

1:57:50

street and there was a sign on the street prayer or it was something like that yes the prayer room yeah yeah yeah

1:57:56

and when you share that story it's like okay okay God's got it God's got it he's

1:58:01

okay yeah thank you for reminding me about that yeah there was Byron Bay is like it's like Sedona or Bali or Goa or

1:58:09

something like that and then I walked it I remember there was a prayer sign I don't even remember I remember what the denomination was or what it said but I

1:58:15

did go I did did go in there and you guys were with me like I was messaging you regularly you know on on Facebook

1:58:20

the four of you like we were adding chatting regularly yeah good and then

1:58:25

and then all of a sudden we get this message I've traveled the world and experienced all this and come to the realization

1:58:32

that Jesus is the truth it was like yeah yeah he stressed us

1:58:41

oh I mean my faith went through that just watching what you'd been through

1:58:46

and God just guiding you through it all really incredible well you know I

1:58:51

probably haven't told you this part of the story Rob but this is the part that you play into is you know so I met you

1:58:57

guys on the Playa and it was it was that moment with Larry that I was really stuck on was like I was I was projecting

1:59:03

he had some judgments towards me and it was just strictly coming out of me but I was like I'm not going to be able to get

1:59:09

past this and so it was a real maybe a 10 or 15 minute period where it's like okay this is in my heart I'm either gonna say it or not it's either gonna

1:59:15

stop either I'm gonna either I'm gonna give in to it and stop and leave or I'm gonna speak it and so I spoke it right

1:59:21

and that was a profoundly healing go ahead yeah let me just interject because I just reframed that here in this again

1:59:28

and that was a masterful cooperation with

1:59:34

Holy Spirit on your part because you brought something to the light most people go oh I don't want to

1:59:41

bring that I want to bring that up but you were honest you just brought it to the light you weren't vindictive or you know didn't have an edge you just

1:59:47

brought it to the light and that gave Larry um that opening to say oh no this is my

1:59:55

heart let me let me put you at these so two bits of light coming together you

2:00:01

know and if only we all would do that more in our daily lives more more

2:00:08

problems that get resolved like I'll give you a chance to speak now you know I'm struggling with this judgment I'm

2:00:15

not sure if it's right or wrong please speak yeah well that was the thing is I had to get my get my hands around but

2:00:21

there's a picture forming by the way of like how um how I guess providential it is that it's

2:00:28

was the four of you on the call today and then I wish Larry could be here but you know I'll speak I'll send him a message and we're done but like you know

2:00:35

uh but Larry had such an important role to play all four of you did but Larry's role because I'm sitting there for 15

2:00:40

minutes like struggling with us how am I going to express this and I'm having to separate like I'm having this projection

2:00:47

moment I'm not aware that it's a projection like am I actually feeling something and so I'm wrestling with it

2:00:53

like okay I've got to separate myself from it and find the right way to speak it in a way that isn't confrontational

2:00:58

or it's like okay I just need to check this out real quick like getting my hands around it like that to say you

2:01:04

know because I had announced that I wanted to travel and that I wanted to travel the world and what I was experiencing

2:01:11

um uh was that like he was judging me for that like oh who's this kid to do this privileged kid or whatever

2:01:17

something like that and that was that it was my own voice but I couldn't hear that it was my own voice I was projecting it onto him and so that I had

2:01:23

to take that out and be able to get it to the point where it's like okay this thing is happening I need to check out whether it's real or not and what I was

2:01:30

actually scared of was him be like yeah it's real it's like I don't know that was the fear right yeah right yeah right

2:01:37

but to be able to but to be like and I'll never forget the way that he said like no I don't feel that way at all I'm

2:01:44

happy and excited for you I was like really right well you know the people

2:01:49

who are listening to this podcast they know me in a certain way now but I was not always this guy like I remember I

2:01:55

had had this dream in my heart to travel for 15 years by the by the time that I met you guys almost 16 years and I had

2:02:02

to ask you guys for permission I had to ask total strangers for permission to to fulfill my own dreams and you guys I

2:02:09

remember Barbara I think you and Katie you guys looked at me like you don't need to ask us for permission but I still needed to ask right and the I and

2:02:16

that's completely alien to the way that I am now but that's the guy that I was back then because I was carrying this

2:02:22

internalized judgment that I needed to be able to get out into the space between me and Larry and then also Barb

2:02:27

you and me like the stuff that I had around mother and stuff like that to be able to separate that because I remember

2:02:33

you saying so meaningfully like no it's my job as a mom to let my son go like

2:02:38

I'm not supposed to hold him here forever like of course it breaks my heart of course it hurts to send him out

2:02:44

in the world but that's still what I have to do as a mother and that was not my experience of mothering at all and

2:02:50

that you had my mom's name Barbara that you offered that experience that was like what like that's what a mother is

2:02:57

you know and so on the same so you had a piece of it and Larry had a piece of it as well yeah thank you for sharing that well

2:03:05

that's uh that uh that fills it out

2:03:10

we knew some of that but you filled it out now even more and and thank you for

2:03:16

doing that you're welcome thank you I mean it was the space that the three of you created yeah because I was hungry

2:03:23

for it but while you're while you're doing the healing work with me I'm also testing you because I've done so much

2:03:29

healing stuff work do these people know what they're doing you know what I mean like they know what they're doing okay let's let's you know and there was a

2:03:36

point at which the ball just starts rolling downhill you know when the really deep stuff around mother and

2:03:41

father starts coming out you know that really liberated me to be like oh wow you mean like I can leave leave the

2:03:48

mother energy and go be myself and travel the world and and I can depart from this father energy and like no it's

2:03:54

okay and free myself like that was very powerful for me but there's no way that you guys would have known what was going

2:04:00

on behind my eyes yeah yeah yeah yeah and just really just the piece that you

2:04:06

had Rob is that um I've got it excuse me one second

2:04:16

oh yeah yeah yeah yeah because when I got back from my travels

2:04:22

the day I got back December February 2020. the day I got back you had shipped

2:04:29

this to my friend Jeff and I arrived into San Francisco

2:04:34

and he uh to stay with him for a couple nights and pick up my stuff and move to Phoenix the day I got back he put this

2:04:41

book into my hands simply Christian by NT writing which you had sent to me right and so now looking back I

2:04:47

understand that I met Christ on the Playa through you guys with you guys and he sent me on

2:04:54

this adventure to go and do all the things Ayahuasca you know the kumala Hindu

2:05:02

festival vipassana meditation all this different New Age stuff and medicines to go experience it all and to go do all

2:05:09

these things and when I got back Christ was waiting for me yes

2:05:14

because you sent me this Rob as a gift yeah yeah

2:05:19

thank you it was it was God's timing you know and you know another wrinkle to

2:05:25

that is uh you'd had so much experiences even including ours on the planet

2:05:33

um you needed some teaching yeah which is valid Jesus sat and taught so many times in the Bible he didn't just preach

2:05:39

or do Miracles he taught them principles of the Kingdom so so God has that for us

2:05:45

and I think that was your timing like you were ready yeah you're ready to be taught

2:05:53

old Chinese proverb when the student is ready the teacher will come you know

2:06:00

but God sent a book your way he sent a lot of blessings my way

2:06:06

yeah I'm like in tears here just um marveling that we

2:06:13

get to enjoy and see and and Marvel at

2:06:20

this transformation the you know you're not just your transformation all of us but as we're been recounting uh for the

2:06:29

last hour and a half or whatever it just is so wonderful

2:06:35

how God Works things out because he says my ways

2:06:41

are not your ways your ways are not my ways and I and so hearing all of this

2:06:47

and and hearing more and more you filling out your own story

2:06:53

um I just I just can't help but fall more in love with God he's so I love his

2:07:00

intricacies and his his creativity and just how cool he is amen

2:07:07

one other little piece of that real quick okay so the cover of this book simply Christian this

2:07:14

is caprianga which is the northernmost point of New Zealand which is which is a very special place

2:07:21

to me for my travels New Zealand and this place so when I got back having moved here from New Zealand

2:07:28

uh this book put in my hands from you rob as again I get chills that's amazing

2:07:37

yeah wow that's incredible yeah

2:07:44

oh God yeah he's good than previously thought

2:07:50

yeah right yeah oh we make him so small yeah this keeps getting bigger yeah

2:07:56

answering again God do you see me of course I do yeah yeah

2:08:02

well thank you all so much this has been a real blessing of a conversation after after many years of blessings of uh

2:08:09

friendship and fellowship with you guys thank you so much yeah you're welcome to have the conversation with you and yeah

2:08:15

relive the moments yeah don't be a stranger come back up here yeah or maybe

2:08:20

we'll get down there we'll see yeah yeah anytime and I I definitely have some people that I want to come visit up

2:08:26

there in Idaho as well yeah do you uh are there any place that

2:08:31

um that you send people for more information about you and or streams Ministries or any of the things that you

2:08:37

do online and know that you are doing dream interpretation online for a while wow that was more a factor of covid

2:08:44

um most of the work we do is pretty local um yeah Spirit drink Facebook we do have a

2:08:51

Facebook page where we put stuff in I mean it's just really for like our local dream interpretation Ministry that we do

2:08:58

um um yeah Spirit dream North Idaho yeah I

2:09:04

mean if somebody wanted to get in touch with us that would be the way because we do monitor that page so Spirit dream

2:09:09

North Idaho on Facebook we don't mind questions yeah put kindly yeah

2:09:15

Pearl calls everything remember yeah that's right yeah yeah I mean your your

2:09:20

everyday everyday people like there's no you know great magic to it in that way

2:09:25

it's like you're you're people who took on a a pretty brave and pretty bold calling to go uh right into the heart of

2:09:31

some pretty difficult and Dark Places and uh that's you know but that doesn't mean there's any greatness it's just

2:09:37

it's the it's the small things that confound the big things right yeah act

2:09:42

the privilege of getting to be part of what God's doing thank you all so much yeah thank you

2:09:52

we love you in person yeah I love you guys too love you