Show Notes
2-YEAR ANNIVERSARY EPISODE! – Rob, Katie, Barb, and Andrea might be names you don’t immediately recognize. But if you listen to this podcast, the contribution they made to my life should be familiar: they introduced me to Christ at Burning Man, and baptized me 5 years later, almost to the day. They ran a ministry at that New Age, pagan, hedonistic festival, for over a decade, reaching out to some of the most lost and rebellious seekers. But even those men and women were in need of a Father’s blessing. They just didn’t know it. In our conversation we discussed:
The genesis of Spirit Dream, and its rapid growth
Fitting in with the unique festival culture
Lessons learned and dangers confronted, and why they stopped going
Behind the scenes of the camp protocols
The co-existing spiritual kingdoms
Meeting me and watching my transformation
A sign that God may be bigger than previously thought
This episode is a dream come true for me, in part because these were the first four people I ever told about my vision for the Renaissance of Men. I pray that I can be a living example of the fruit of their ministry.
Show Notes
2-YEAR ANNIVERSARY EPISODE! – Rob, Katie, Barb, and Andrea might be names you don’t immediately recognize. But if you listen to this podcast, the contribution they made to my life should be familiar: they introduced me to Christ at Burning Man, and baptized me 5 years later, almost to the day. They ran a ministry at that New Age, pagan, hedonistic festival, for over a decade, reaching out to some of the most lost and rebellious seekers. But even those men and women were in need of a Father’s blessing. They just didn’t know it. In our conversation we discussed:
The genesis of Spirit Dream, and its rapid growth
Fitting in with the unique festival culture
Lessons learned and dangers confronted, and why they stopped going
Behind the scenes of the camp protocols
The co-existing spiritual kingdoms
Meeting me and watching my transformation
A sign that God may be bigger than previously thought
This episode is a dream come true for me, in part because these were the first four people I ever told about my vision for the Renaissance of Men. I pray that I can be a living example of the fruit of their ministry.
Show Notes
2-YEAR ANNIVERSARY EPISODE! – Rob, Katie, Barb, and Andrea might be names you don’t immediately recognize. But if you listen to this podcast, the contribution they made to my life should be familiar: they introduced me to Christ at Burning Man, and baptized me 5 years later, almost to the day. They ran a ministry at that New Age, pagan, hedonistic festival, for over a decade, reaching out to some of the most lost and rebellious seekers. But even those men and women were in need of a Father’s blessing. They just didn’t know it. In our conversation we discussed:
The genesis of Spirit Dream, and its rapid growth
Fitting in with the unique festival culture
Lessons learned and dangers confronted, and why they stopped going
Behind the scenes of the camp protocols
The co-existing spiritual kingdoms
Meeting me and watching my transformation
A sign that God may be bigger than previously thought
This episode is a dream come true for me, in part because these were the first four people I ever told about my vision for the Renaissance of Men. I pray that I can be a living example of the fruit of their ministry.
Show Notes
2-YEAR ANNIVERSARY EPISODE! – Rob, Katie, Barb, and Andrea might be names you don’t immediately recognize. But if you listen to this podcast, the contribution they made to my life should be familiar: they introduced me to Christ at Burning Man, and baptized me 5 years later, almost to the day. They ran a ministry at that New Age, pagan, hedonistic festival, for over a decade, reaching out to some of the most lost and rebellious seekers. But even those men and women were in need of a Father’s blessing. They just didn’t know it. In our conversation we discussed:
The genesis of Spirit Dream, and its rapid growth
Fitting in with the unique festival culture
Lessons learned and dangers confronted, and why they stopped going
Behind the scenes of the camp protocols
The co-existing spiritual kingdoms
Meeting me and watching my transformation
A sign that God may be bigger than previously thought
This episode is a dream come true for me, in part because these were the first four people I ever told about my vision for the Renaissance of Men. I pray that I can be a living example of the fruit of their ministry.
Guest's Links
facebook / spiritdreamni
Guest's Links
facebook / spiritdreamni
Guest's Links
facebook / spiritdreamni
Guest's Links
facebook / spiritdreamni
Transcript
0:00
there were definitely times when I was involved in encounters and then releasing them back out to the
0:06
defilement of the Playa was heart-wrenching because you don't know what they're going to choose but it
0:13
wasn't our job is we just made the deposit that we were able to make and came into God's hands
0:26
hey and thank you for joining me for my very special two-year anniversary episode it's been an amazing year with
0:32
some of my biggest guests ever including Pastor Doug Wilson laser huddle and
0:37
feminine not feminist thank you so much for being a part of it but this episode is really special it's sort of a dream
0:44
come true because my guests this week aren't famous authors pastors or content
0:49
creators they're everyday people but ones who have had an incredible impact on my life their names are Rob Katie
0:56
Barb and Andrea and they're from Camp Spirit dream who introduced me to Christ at Burning Man so please enjoy this very
1:03
special two-year anniversary episode and once again thank you so much for being part of the Renaissance of men Katie Rob
1:11
Barb and Andrea from spiritream thanks so much for joining me on the podcast thanks for having us thanks for having
1:16
us uh you know I you guys have made such a huge difference in my life and I think everyone who listens to
1:23
um listens to the podcast listen to my podcast and has heard me on other podcasts has heard me tell the story of
1:28
how I met you at Burning Man and the impact you've had on my life so I'm really grateful that you're taking the time to talk with me today and to share
1:34
some of the stories um share some of the stories in the background that even I don't know
1:40
we're glad to be here yeah so let's let's start by um by allowing
1:46
you guys to introduce yourself so maybe Katie we'll start with you and we'll just go go across and you can share as
1:51
much about yourself and your story as you as you'd like to and then we'll get to the camp and and and all that
1:58
yes my name is Katie Mazza and I'm married to Rob here and I went to Burning Man for seven years
2:05
starting in 2011 ending in 2017 and at
2:10
was life-changing for me to say the least and a privilege to go
2:15
awesome can you share a little bit about your testimony maybe if you guys would be willing to do that
2:22
yes um you don't have to if yes no that's fine it would be a little long yeah just
2:28
suggesting okay yeah that's true I know I know a couple I will say this though I Rob started going to burning man before
2:36
I did and I had some I wanted to go I was in full support of it but I did not
2:43
have a release to go until 2011 because I needed to face some issues in my own
2:52
life that would have hindered my
2:58
ability to function in the team the way I needed to as well as to give to the
3:05
people that came to see us is in the way that would be beneficial
3:10
yeah see that's that's there's a pretty amazing Insight right there like we have to be spiritually prepared to go out to
3:16
to do ministry like that which is so thank you for that yeah Rob and my name is Rob masla and I
3:26
am married to this lovely woman and I think what I'd I like to say I guess I
3:32
was the original part of the original Seven that went by invitation of an
3:40
intercessory group um from um
3:45
oh the Midwest yeah International House of Prayer Mike bickles grew
3:52
and so their job was just to pray and then they they found out about us and
3:57
basically extended an invitation to a bunch of crazy people that would do dream interpretation or spiritual
4:04
encounters or whatever so seven of us went in and the earlier early years that
4:10
would be starting 2004 and uh yeah those were the uh plowing
4:16
and strange and difficult soil years trying to figure out the culture and having the culture figure out us
4:24
and I'm I'm really happy to say God came through and we're all in one piece
4:30
yeah I'm very happy to I'm very happy to see that too yeah I had some close calls
4:35
but we made it yeah yeah I would like to hear about some of those but yeah yeah Barb go ahead yep my name is Barb Owens
4:43
and I'm actually I was the the newest to the it's my first year was 2012. and um
4:50
Andrea and another friend of ours had extended an invitation for me to be on
4:55
the team by the time I came around there were some real um good protocols in place for who was allowed to go out with
5:02
the team and just kind of a screening process to make sure that the people who went out there would do well and not get
5:08
chewed up and spit out by what was happening out there so Andrea was actually my sponsor and um I had a lot
5:16
of great reasons why it wasn't the right year for me to go and then God got a hold of me and really dealt with the
5:21
real issues which was lack of faith um and I remember one of my favorite things I remember telling Rob like I I
5:28
feel like you know what have I have to offer out there and I remember him saying I find the soccer moms do really
5:33
well out there and I'm like I can do that I can go out there and be a mom and love on the people that God brings into
5:39
our camp so that was kind of what it looked like and I actually went for six years
5:44
um we all actually retired in 2017 it was the same year that we all felt the nudge that it was our last time going
5:51
out there yeah well was that the year that the man ran into the fire did you hear us hear about that it was it wasn't
5:57
saying here it was it was wow but you guys always left on you guys always packed up and we're out by Saturday like
6:03
you didn't stick around for the burn yeah yeah right yeah one of the things they learned in the early years was that
6:09
uh by the time it got to that point we were done yeah our team was done with what we were
6:14
there for yeah and I think it's really important that you said that there were protocols in place that you know there
6:20
were processes and there's a formal structure it wasn't like you were just going out there to hang out and maybe do some Ministry work like it was it was a
6:27
it's a whole thing I don't want to say it was like a business because it wasn't business like in a commercial sense but
6:32
it was a like there was formal processes in place for your for your benefit to
6:37
run the camp and everything was a very serious thing yeah that's true yeah for our protection yeah exactly in spite of
6:45
our jovial appearance there was we were serious as a heart attack yeah yeah and
6:50
I think that came across Andrea yeah my name's Andrea berather and I
6:58
started in 2007 went for about 10 years my story is a little different than
7:03
Katie's I um had never done anything like that before ever in my life and I
7:09
grew up in church so I was in like church world and Mommy world when I got
7:14
invited to go and God made it clear that I was supposed to go but it felt like being
7:20
thrown in the deep end of the pool and I really wasn't prepared very well but I had to learn to swim really fast
7:26
and I went out you know very green and very scared and again I like Katie said
7:33
it was the most life-changing experience ministering out there yeah learned a lot yeah hands down
7:39
let's let's talk quickly about how the camp came together with the with the the Genesis of it was so to speak and then
7:46
I'm actually really curious about the sort of things like the chewing up and the spitting out and the processes and the learning like like because from my
7:52
perspective like I just go out to burning man you know in a Secular Progressive new age kind of world where it's like oh Burning Man is a great time
7:59
but that was the last time I was there but I would imagine going in with a completely different worldview there's a
8:04
completely different means of preparation that would be I would have to think about that now actually but I'm
8:10
interested to hear your side what it's like going um into quite dangerous territory so
8:15
let's talk about the origins of the camp and then we'll get into what it was actually like for you guys going there personally and collectively
8:21
yeah so um 2004 as I said uh John Paul Jackson
8:28
kind of our our mentor of sorts had this idea that he should send a team in there
8:35
from streams Ministries I'm part of and we were all a part of streams Ministries so we had this wild idea that he should
8:43
throw a bunch of us into burning man and we all looked at one another and said
8:49
but there's crazy naked people you know what are we gonna do you know confirm
8:54
but anyways we acquiesce because there was no way of saying no to John Paul he's he was a nice guy but when when he
9:03
saw something on the horizon you would go for it and we would just emulate that so we ended up going and we you know we
9:11
had we had a background in um what we call prophetic evangelism it was a
9:17
pioneering idea where we would go on the streets and look at people and just ask
9:23
God for an impression a download on who they are where they were going or
9:29
something and we would just basically say something like when I look at you I
9:34
see and that's how we made conversations on the streets and then we started going to New Age fairs and
9:42
um a few other events but Burning Man was a total immersion it wasn't like you
9:48
can go home or go in into a hotel room and decompress you have to live
9:54
and interact for a whole week so that was a game changer and Christianity was
10:01
definitely in the low low low minority numbers there yeah
10:06
um if at all in some in some cases so so there we were and the first year was
10:12
difficult because people were they were it seemed like
10:17
um they were testing us like some people wouldn't come out of character some
10:23
people would you know we'd say do you have a dream we could interpret and then they'd tell us a pornographic dream and
10:29
it was just this trying to figure out this sort of
10:35
testing thing and I remember complaining to the Lord about it and he goes actually I was
10:40
testing you the first two years to see if you would if
10:46
um you would understand the culture and work with me to find the keys of loving
10:55
them and working with them so that was an eye-opener for me like it wasn't just
11:02
blaming a bunch of crazy people stressing us out it's far different was
11:07
God's plan to get us in the mode of really listening and hearing with our
11:13
heart both them and the god that we had to lean on every stinking moment we were
11:20
there so that that was the big takeaway and um
11:26
but you know there were bright spots that even though we were the first two years were kind of like what was that
11:33
we would have these encounters and here's one I'll I'll just share one there was yeah a woman I was working
11:40
with and I I think I gave her an encouraging word something to do with her makeup how God understood her makeup
11:48
and her composition as a being yeah yeah yeah
11:54
and burning man you never know the difference people are made up there yeah exactly but we're not making this up
12:01
anyway so so we're going so uh
12:06
she kind of looks at me like well that's all well good but then she just goes for the you know she just goes for the the
12:14
artery and she just bakes these looks at me and she says how come you Christians just think you can speak at scripture
12:21
and it's supposed to change us and I'm going oh my God here we are ground zero
12:27
and and you know what what they really wanted was an encounter with Jesus
12:32
living in us look in our eyes and see Jesus kind of thing and we didn't fully
12:39
realize that to to the degree we do now but what I ended up saying to her is I
12:45
need to apologize to you I said to her I said I need to apologize
12:52
um for on behalf of the church for judging you in what we deem is your strange
12:59
appearance or strange behavior and we've missed your hunger
13:04
God never misses your hunger and I kind of lived off that little
13:12
experience for quite a while as a a ground zero feeling in those early years
13:19
is not to miss the hunger of the culture spite of their weird acting out or
13:25
whatever weird channels they might get in for spirituality it didn't matter
13:30
God was concerned about this hunger that he put in the human heart [Music]
13:36
that they were seeking to fill at that Festival but with um not the right food let's say yeah
13:42
exactly just like you yeah right absolutely it was one of the things that impressed me really early on in one of
13:50
my early years was how someone could come in and um they'd obviously been
13:55
pursuing in dark streams and yet there was this almost like clean feeling on
14:00
them and it was what I came to recognize was a genuine hunger for truth and they
14:05
were looking in places where they weren't finding it um but the the purity of the pursuit was
14:11
there and it was obvious when we'd meet people like that it didn't matter what they looked like on the outside we could
14:18
tell that there was something really genuine and true there now did you announce early on that you
14:23
were Christians or advertised at all or it just kind of came out naturally in conversation
14:29
no we we you know you know if you look back in
14:35
the Bible um it's it's kind of like Jesus wouldn't admit he wouldn't fess up that he was
14:42
the son of God you know he wouldn't fess up to all the attributes that he carried
14:47
you know it's it's just you know certain instances he would reveal something and
14:53
then you know that that famous line he said that Peter answered because who do you say I am he says to his own
14:59
disciples so a lot of ways we let them figure out by the presence we carried the peace
15:08
that was in the tent the light and they would verbalize these things they would
15:13
come and come to the entrance of our tent and say there's so much light here
15:18
but there's so much Spirit here or so much peace here how do you do that
15:25
and talk about you know a conversation opener for us to work with them and as rich
15:32
sort of a taste and see approach because we we understand that people in the
15:39
culture come pre-loaded with a whole lot of ideas and judgments about Christians and who they are yeah so you don't you
15:47
don't you don't want to come straight out with that and and hit that wall with people so we're a taste and see you know
15:54
we let them taste of what we had and let the Holy Spirit decide when it was time to reveal who we really were
16:02
yeah yeah I think the Apostle Paul said it well in Acts
16:08
26 17. he was talking to Agrippa a pagan
16:13
King and he's he's given a defense sort of sort of to save his life maybe a defense
16:19
of who he was what he was doing and basically he said uh let me tell you my story
16:25
and it so he tells him the story how a a great light came it was knocked to the
16:31
ground and then a voice came and it was Jesus and Jesus says why are you
16:37
persecuting me but but then Jesus gives him a commission and he says I'm sending you to the Gentiles and I think this is
16:45
what we've embraced to do this to open their eyes
16:50
and then to turn them from Darkness delay
16:56
right open there so it's as Andrew is saying we're doing eye-opening things
17:03
and it's different according you know each person is a little different right
17:08
yeah yeah I don't think a message of sin and repentance would go over so well at
17:14
Burning Man right but I mean but but the message of love because I remember being in the camp and I you may have heard me
17:20
say this or I may have said it to you guys I've definitely said it when speaking about the experiences you know I'm in this I'm in this I don't know
17:26
what the healing encounter with you guys for what three and a half hours something like that and while that's going on Barb and Katie you were there
17:32
I'm looking around the tent you know like trying to figure out who are these people because I didn't see any Buddhas
17:38
or vishnus or psychedelic art or anything like that which is pretty as you know pretty usual for burning man
17:44
you walk into someone's camp and you you get a sense like are they you know DMT you know drug trippies or are they you
17:51
know you know some sort of like new Eastern mysticism whatever and I didn't see any of that and that was really odd
17:56
for me because I couldn't quite triangulate who you guys were right and it was only that it was only the reveal
18:02
at the end wait what what are you doing here yeah and so that was a consciously
18:08
chosen I mean it would have to be right yeah yeah well it was a really beautiful thing too to see people experience who
18:14
Jesus really is yeah they have their misconceptions but to let them experience it firsthand uh it rocked
18:22
them and it would I know rock me and the encounters to watch them having this encounter for the first time with the
18:28
true Jesus with the true God who created them yeah and then of course I came up to
18:34
visit you guys for Christmas um a few months later thank you for hosting me by the way and um that visit
18:42
was probably as powerful as meeting you on the Playa because I got to see that
18:47
it wasn't just you just wear this out on the Playa for for work let's say it's like no you you live in this way that
18:53
I'd never encountered other Christians living especially in your interactions with each other and seeing your lives in
18:59
the way you treated me even off even off the Playa um we try
19:06
as it should be yeah yes as it should be yeah I agree I agree so so
19:12
um how did the camp then from its early days start to grow and and when did you
19:17
get a sense like okay maybe we should be doing this for more than a couple years maybe we should start pulling together
19:23
people from across the country and make it into like a thing and what did it look like in those early early days like
19:29
if there was just seven of you you probably didn't have a big a big tent all set up or maybe you did I don't know
19:34
what it what did it actually look like and then how did it Grow from there we had those we had those chintzy pop-up
19:41
things you could buy for I don't know maybe a hundred dollars a pop and the
19:46
wind promptly bloomed shreds the first year but this figure this is where we
19:52
learned about Burning Man Community we were we were out we're we're a day camp so that meant we would Minister uh
20:01
just to the point of exhaustion during the day but at night we would go out and
20:06
look at the sights and the art and whatnot but the wind picked up ferocious winds and dust out there and we came
20:14
back and all our neighbors were holding our tent poles down and helping us and
20:21
you know the community is valued in prized there so you know we're taking notes all the time like these people are
20:28
serious about um their neighbors you know feeding one another or taking care of something so
20:36
so from there I think there wasn't a time that we said we're not coming back from
20:43
the first time even though it may have been some difficult testing there was enough to say there's there's promise
20:51
here there are people there are people worth coming back for so there was never a time we thought we were going to quit
20:58
um the next year I think it at least doubled more than doubled and then by
21:03
the third year it was up to maybe 27 members wow the first year it was
21:09
actually 50. 2007. seven so four five six fourth year
21:15
yeah it really went crazy but it was kind of like um we we have to play with how we would
21:24
bring in new people and we were a little fast and loose at time but then we
21:30
developed a protocol that you have to sponsor someone yeah someone would vouch
21:35
for the person they're bringing in and have some accountability yeah because it's yeah yeah you had to
21:43
have the measure of character um and the Heart the right heart and
21:51
um well yeah and that actually there wasn't there was
21:58
a little formal thing about taking the art of hearing God class from streams Ministry because that covered
22:05
character being more important than gifting and and character would also include we
22:13
would include it now maybe a little broader um a little broader umbrella of do they
22:20
love well do they understand honor that they understand protocol
22:25
so all those things were became very important to us so so this art of hearing God class is a
22:32
21-hour class that just hits all the raw spots about about our Humanity sometimes
22:40
go ahead and um going back to the beginning when Rob went that first year the first couple of
22:46
years as he had said the IHOP people had invited the team to
22:53
join them and at that time that team just handed out water bottles and back
22:59
then it was bottles of water to pastors by and and would you know mostly do that
23:05
and then these guys show up and the scene begins to change the whole thing begins to
23:11
change and and those people then handed it over to the spirit dream team and they no
23:20
longer participated in in a physical way and so from that it went to not just
23:28
handing out water but getting the encounter tent and then there was the
23:34
process of adding the coffee Dome and their story line in that as well but it
23:40
kind of evolved one you know piece by piece I totally forgot about the coffee Dome
23:49
it's like if if there are touch points the first point are the people that give out water and just talk to people and
23:56
then we have a coffee Dome where if you went in there there'd be a chill space there'd be people to you know there's
24:03
space to talk a little deeper or a quiet a quiet space yeah and enjoy your coffee
24:08
some people would spend all day in our coffee now and then kind of the deep end
24:13
would be the encounter can a 90-foot military tent where we would seat we would have maybe
24:21
10 groups of two or three of our team that would encounter people like such as
24:26
yourself as they came in let me do the screen share real quick and because you sent me some photos of
24:32
the encounter tent and I can pull that up right now and we can take a look for the people
24:38
for the people watching on YouTube they can actually see the encounter tent can
24:43
you guys see that yeah yeah that's that's the tent and you can I mean and like I was saying earlier you can kind
24:49
of look around and you know there's nothing you know what is that like a Galaxy or an eyeball painting or
24:55
something like that but there's nothing in there that's like there's nothing in there that's psychedelic or anything like that it was very
25:01
um it was very uh very plain I guess you would say by contrast but like it
25:07
doesn't that doesn't mean it was ordinary in any way and so I just I think I'm not sure which end of the tent
25:12
I was at but I remember being at one end of the tent Yeah by about that time our our Decor
25:18
was becoming early Ezekiel okay so there's there's probably a bunch
25:24
of things that you're gonna have to unpack for a lot of people listening including me so let's maybe let's unpack John Paul Jackson's dreams Ministries
25:29
and art of hearing God and then early let's not unpack these things just because there's this context that I
25:35
think a lot of listeners even if they're Christians won't really have a lot of context for like who is John Paul Jackson's what is Jackson what is
25:42
streams Ministry what did he think about what you were doing in the whole thing so let's maybe back up for a second and talk about that
25:50
where to begin right yeah where to begin well John Paul is now passed away but um
25:58
streams Ministry lives on with a a new man in charge uh John Thomas but
26:06
um so John John Paul was a teacher and what we would call a revelatory minister you
26:13
know he operated in the gift of the prophetic and in in my opinion he was
26:18
um uh one of the more principled and a man who who walked in character which is why
26:26
personally my eye was attracted to him there was nothing flighty about it and he could unpack
26:33
um the meanings of what it is to live a prophetic lifestyle or just that everybody has gifts you just gotta
26:41
realize everyone has gifts they're given from God and but they need to be developed and they need to be developed
26:47
alongside character that was his biggest message and he would you know he would say that over
26:53
and over again so it's it's still alive today where I
26:58
still teaches teach those courses there are streams teachers that teach the courses understanding dreams and Visions
27:05
is another um very popular and needed course because all of humanity gets Dreams yeah
27:12
and there are few people that could interpret it with a hebraic or a
27:17
Biblical background and so we teach that yeah there's possible to do that it's it's a long
27:25
learning curve but it's worth pursuing yeah that was one of the things that um
27:31
that I think initially attracted me to going through your uh tent is because I had done dream
27:38
interpretation on my own after just a little bit of training in Jung Yan style dream interpretation like 15 years
27:44
earlier so when I came out with the Playa and the guy that I met said oh I just came from Spirit dream they do dream interpretation and healing I'm
27:50
like I probably was dream interpretation that hooked me that was like that was something I could kind of understand like oh that sounds cool I'll go check
27:56
that out yeah yeah please
28:04
well that was kind of your domain up front well yeah okay I don't want to do
28:09
all the talking but but we did we had a sandwich board it was kind of like you
28:15
know I had this idea like well we're like a um spiritual Cafe so we need a
28:21
menu board so they can see what they want and and it was just a kind of a cheap way to hook people
28:27
but but it works you know we had dream interpretation we had um encouraging encouraging words we had
28:35
healing I you know help me Healing Touch Healing Touch Destiny Direction okay Destiny
28:41
Direction and then we had spiritual encounter which became such a popular
28:47
one we started calling it free fall uh we thought of metaphors for everything
28:53
but essentially they're real spiritual experiences that we could back up in the
28:58
Bible but we didn't want to use religious language yes so and we know the culture is hardwired
29:06
for healing inner healing physical healing all kinds of stuff so
29:12
you know the combination of we well let me back up we know that the human Spirit
29:18
we all have a human spirit and it's hardwired to look for God in some measure you know
29:26
pre-salvation it's it's kind of dim but it's still looking because he put eternity in the heart of man
29:33
eternity is not a Earthly component that has to come from God so we know that people have their radar up and and so
29:41
they're comparing our methodologies of healing or
29:46
encouragement to theirs and the kind of ambiance the light
29:51
around us the feel the atmosphere the peace and that that's what worked you know
29:58
they might have re they might read the menu board but then they're in the door and they're gone oh wow
30:05
how do you guys do that I have this question like right off the bat they'd walk through the threshold and they go
30:11
how do you guys do this you know yeah and I go well let's sit down
30:19
yeah I've struggled to because I I would tell people you know the whole story in various levels of detail where I showed
30:25
up at the at the tent that my the guy had directed me to at my camp and
30:31
struggling to remember what was actually written on the menu board because I I want to say things that because I don't
30:37
remember exactly what was written there but I I want to say things that were
30:42
they were interesting to me but the language wasn't of any sort of like identifiable New Age Eastern mysticism
30:49
kind of thing right there was something about it's like I recognize the intention Behind these things even if I
30:56
don't know what any of the practices are besides you know like free fall like if I walked up with a free fall that sounds
31:01
cool or dream interpretation I know but anything else like that's that's I think the skill that you guys had developed is
31:09
how to speak in a language that the culture understands but that isn't the culture's language
31:15
and that's that's very difficult to do we're writing that one down yeah
31:21
I like that yeah and and the truth was so the way the the encounter tent was set up the reason I said that was Rob's
31:27
domain is because we had a waiting area at one end of the tent so because we had
31:32
a line every day of people wanting encounters and we could only do so many before we take a break for lunch and
31:38
then we'd have a window of time after lunch before dinner where we could only do so many so Rob and our other leader
31:45
Darren were in the waiting area greeting people when they came in and they had the menu board there so they would sit
31:51
with them and they'd say you know what looks appealing and the whole time they were kind of pinging in the spirit which
31:58
of the 10 encounter teams will this person fit with where is God directing
32:03
me to seat them so like for your encounter well I remember you saying you were sitting there waiting and kind of
32:09
talking to them and you were looking at the teams which one you thought you might see sit with and you told us you
32:15
saw our team as Katie and I and then a man named Larry and you thought oh I don't want to be seated with that team
32:20
is the exact team you got seated with I know yeah yeah so uh that was kind of so
32:26
they would kind of being worried the person belong and then bring the person the burner back and introduce them to
32:31
the team members and it's always kind of funny to me because we had our menu board and they would always say this is
32:37
so and so they'd make the introductions and they're here for Destiny Direction which we would you know take note of but
32:44
the fact is is that uh Holy Spirit guided every encounter we didn't really know where any of them were going to go
32:50
I mean we flew by the seat of our pants with every encounter because we didn't know what really the person was bringing
32:56
what they really needed but God knew every time and we learned to just flow with whatever was happening in the
33:03
spirit well we had to be open to the creativity of God because there were things that he
33:10
would download do this and we're like do what he would take us all on an
33:15
adventure yeah and we'd have to figure it out later what just happened oh yeah because he's very creative in how he reached people yeah yeah I had one
33:23
encounter my my newbie year where Andrea was the team lead and I was on a team and I won't do all the details of the
33:29
encounter but this she was doing this encounter with this woman and I'm watching and I was
33:35
super impressed because I'm a newbie and I'm just taking it all in right and Andrea just navigates this whole thing
33:40
with this gal and the gal gets this you know incredible experience and when she leaves at the end Andrea looks at me and
33:47
the other guy on the team she said well that was different and that's why that was the weirdest encounter okay and I
33:52
said you've never done that before no but she just flowed with it so beautifully I'm like wow you know take
33:58
notes Barb Andre knows how to do this and I need to know how to do it too but yeah yeah it was amazing something that
34:05
you said um the way you said that about the language thing it prompted a memory of
34:11
an encounter that I had maybe second or third year that I went and I was in
34:18
although at the latter years that I went I hung out mostly in the dome but with
34:25
you that time I was in the encounter tip thankfully but um
34:30
so I was in the encounter tent and two two different days uh two different
34:37
teams I would with two different teams and two women were brought you know one woman one day and or that morning and
34:45
one in the afternoon and it was so interesting because each of those gals
34:52
had had abortions and I had had that experience out of the
34:58
whole team the leaders you know prompted by the Holy Spirit brought those gals to the
35:06
team that I was on and and holy spirit gave me language
35:11
to be able to talk to them about principles
35:16
because they were born in an age and an era where this was natural and why did
35:23
if it was so not natural and accepted and the way to do life
35:29
then why did they feel so crappy afterwards after having an abortion what
35:34
why did things shift and their lives kind of fall apart well
35:40
as I said you know Holy Spirit gave me language that they could understand and
35:46
relate to using principles about the Creator and even though man's ways are
35:53
this creators ways are not and and creators ways and principles overrule
36:03
man's ways and so the things that we feel sometimes when we violate the
36:09
principles of the Creator impact us greatly and they they could really
36:15
uh register with that and it opened the doors for them to get some relief and
36:23
some cleansing and some healing I think that's one of the things that that uh you guys did so masterfully is
36:31
you provided that you provided real healing and relief and release and you
36:36
know I have that I have that painting Andrea that you made of Rob hugging that girl it's around here somewhere I don't
36:41
have a digital version but um maybe it'll maybe it'll pop up on my desk somewhere but you know that that you
36:47
came out and you actually offered that and you as you had said earlier Rob about Barb coming like soccer moms do
36:52
really well out there like that was Barb that was exactly what I needed you know even down to the point that like I
36:57
didn't have the soccer mom experience with my mom as we've talked about but you know my mom's name was also Barbara
37:02
and so that was no coincidences there of being able to receive and that was a
37:08
powerful aspect for me it was being able to see an image of the mother that I didn't have right and and be like wait
37:15
this is a thing right and and to the point where you I could see in my own
37:20
life God's hand at work putting me right where I needed to be in the same way these girls with you Katie
37:26
you know had what they needed to to be able to talk with you from a position where you could relate to their
37:31
experience and communicate truth in a way no one else really could yeah it's a
37:36
beautiful thing yeah so um so as people would how did this
37:42
process this protocol kind of develop like with Sandwich Board and you know obviously you would have had to learn on
37:49
the go about how this is all going to work getting a sense of like well we should just trust ourselves trust the
37:54
spirit to guide us in the right way flying by the seat of your pants and these healing encounters and not going
38:00
by any set playback set Playbook that all that all developed over the years I'm guessing yeah yeah it did I mean
38:08
Andrea brought up the word creativity how creative God is and I I think we're
38:14
more dialed into Heaven is an extremely creative Innovative place and there's things we
38:21
haven't even near tapped into and but we were being in an extreme environment and
38:28
basically our go-to prayer was help God we we get ideas I mean we would just get
38:36
ideas and try them and and also it was a community United in this Quest I can't
38:43
say enough about that that while we had leadership and sub leaders
38:49
I mean it was an open dialogue of ideas so anybody could have
38:55
an idea and we'd go yeah that sounds like it has weight on it let's try it you know so I don't know maybe I came up
39:02
with a menu but I think I did I think I had this sandwich board idea but you know there's so many details to doing
39:11
um this kind of Outreach and everything became an art form the serving of food
39:17
and inviting of guests and who to invite and um the kind of music we chose Katie
39:24
would come up with a playlist every year of um basically kind of secular songs there
39:31
were that were edging into values that we we appreciated you know what I mean
39:36
and then we could we can work with that you know so when you open yourself up to
39:42
the creativity of God and doing things differently one idea leads all of a sudden you have two ideas and then those
39:48
two ideas you have four ideas and you have those four ideas and you have eight ideas and it just mushrooms and there's
39:55
it's just Limitless the creativity and the ideas that can come and then when
40:01
you open that sphere up for God to do whatever he wants to do on that platform of creativity it's it's
40:08
blind mind-blowing yeah there were there were times when we would have the nudge
40:13
to do something in an encounter that we didn't have the theology for but we knew it was the spirit telling us but every
40:20
time we'd go back to scripture because that was always our Plumb line and we'd find the principle uh because it's it
40:27
was not about going outside of the the lines to the point where you're violating principle God's principles
40:32
ever um but there were definitely Times by the spirit when um we knew what we were
40:38
to to do and then we would have conversations later hey this happened somebody helped me unpack this and that
40:44
was part of the value of team is having the spiritual insight to be able to bounce off of each other and make sure
40:51
that we were staying in lined up with God's principles and I think that's really important and
40:56
I'm grateful to hear you say that because I know from uh I know from the
41:01
encounter meeting you guys and getting to spend a lot of time with you guys in
41:06
in Idaho and getting to know you personally but I've never really asked too many questions about the protocols
41:12
and practices and and the discipline that's involved to do something like that and still hold to your principles
41:18
still hold to your your your personal Integrity not any of you would ever lose that but you're being pulled in all
41:24
these different energetic directions if nothing else and if only by the overall feeling of the event I mean I and I've
41:31
been unable to speak to the amount of discipline that must have gone on behind the scenes to support you collectively
41:37
and individually in the conduct of that and maybe you can speak into some of those things because you know it's like
41:43
deep sea diving like you don't just go swimming down there like you have to build if it's suits and you know
41:48
underwater whatever maybe you can speak to that a little bit yeah um well let's talk about
41:55
um one thing that became a bit Central to what we did was a father or a mother blessing
42:02
um and it's something I I was doing quite a bit before I would stand in place for
42:10
the absent father or the abusive father and sometimes apologize and or sometimes
42:17
you know just say um I'm you know I'm not actually your father but I believe I
42:23
understand father God enough to impart something to you so you have to be very
42:30
intimate with people well you know you have to hold them close and you have to deal in your mind
42:36
that that this physical intimacy is just a buy the buy I'm I'm looking to reach
42:42
their soul their broken soul and their Spirit that's just aching
42:47
to be validated by a simple I love you yeah I bless you
42:54
and to do that you have to be absolutely clear in your mind like
42:59
um no this is I'm not going into any even though that that physical proximity
43:04
Is there I'm not going to go into any fantasy you know yeah about this there
43:09
is one significant time I'll just tell a brief story it was near the end of the
43:15
week we would have what we call popcorn encounters that were very quick because we had such an overflow of people that
43:22
we couldn't get to during the week yeah so we'd have people hanging out on Friday going when is it my turn so we
43:28
herded them into the tent and we told our team you know pair up do 10 minutes
43:33
worth so so I'm kind of standing there watching kind of directing a little bit
43:39
but mostly just watching and the coming a couple of my teammates me it was you
43:45
that's right that's me yeah we I'll I'll give the background and then you take your side of it so I was teamed up with
43:51
one of our Swedish teammates Malin and this young man came to us and he said that um
43:58
he was he was struggling with whether or not he was homosexual but he said every time he had a homosexual encounter it
44:04
felt wrong but yet he was so drawn to men and right away we knew what he was looking for was a father it was he was
44:11
thinking he was homosexual but what he was wanting was a touch of a father so we said hey Rob and brought him over and
44:18
told Rob and then Rob took it from there and yeah so and so taking it from there
44:25
but I just throw a a just a little tidbit here you know Jesus came to reveal the father
44:32
because you know I mean he even placed himself under that to reveal the father
44:37
and so we take this really seriously that there must be a crying need in humanity
44:44
for her father and we we know that to be absolutely true now yeah so there I am
44:49
standing with a short man that's very sincere very broken and and you know basically are you ready for this I'm I
44:57
just give him a little Spiel I'm just gonna hold you like a dad and and speak this blessing and I and I bless them
45:03
from conception and because God's original design was not that they go
45:09
astray but they know his Spirit from the beginning you know so I I just take him
45:15
through kind of stages in life and bless them and and confirm love upon them and
45:21
and um bless their design and their Destiny bless theirs their bodies bless
45:28
their souls bless their Spirits the way God intended so somewhere in the middle of it I mean
45:35
this is where God really turned the tables on me I I do this almost with you know just by the by in a sense not that
45:42
I'm not involved but I I know how to control yeah it gets very emotional yeah
45:48
two of us sometimes but this one I totally God took me in this different
45:54
place of almost like as Ezekiel said I sat where they sat I understood his pain
46:01
to to such a degree I wept his tears well as weird as that sounds I might
46:07
miss cheers yeah while I'm holding them and then we and and I and I actually
46:13
have this strange thought while I'm there many streets that I'm like God this is crazy uh it gets crazier all the
46:20
time but you know we're just both Sinners yeah
46:26
being smiled upon by a god of great grace and great love
46:31
I have somehow merged with this massive Humanity that's broken
46:36
and uh still chokes me up with you today yeah yeah so you know and and then the Lord
46:44
just took me on a little prophetic Journey where he's telescoping out from here he goes this is the effects of this
46:50
kind of thing that people that Embrace this we will meet
46:55
the culture um just the way they are the way Jesus did
47:01
and I could see it telescoping out for Generations this is this is God's
47:06
way that's just some profound experience that painting's actually hanging on the
47:12
wall should I grab it yeah please yeah please yeah because I've got the I found I
47:19
don't have it on my desk anymore I actually put it up my wall behind me but it's your version will be much better than the than the card that that that uh
47:27
little printout that you gave me that went around the world with me by the way [Music]
47:33
oh it's so lovely so lovely yeah and that was this that was the spirit of
47:39
everything that you did right and that came across and what's and and you know Andrea
47:45
what's so beautiful about that painting that you capture is like is how um impersonal isn't the word but like it's
47:51
personal but it's it's trans person it's larger than personal what's going on there you know it's it's like it's she
47:58
is being embraced by something so much larger than Rob through Rob right and Rob as well and you really captured that
48:05
I don't know yeah yeah yeah and that that was uh that was a young lady from
48:11
um well I don't know she just came in the tent and her story was her dad passed away
48:18
when she's two years old and she had this vague memory of her dad and she just
48:27
it was an ache in her heart yeah it was feeling an ache in her heart and it really impacted her
48:34
um really impacted her to the point where we Center um
48:40
a copy of that print yeah and she showed it to her family and her family's been
48:46
praying for it you know this is whole family and they were like astounded at how God met her in a different sort of
48:54
way you know so I think I'll just add something else uh
49:03
germane to our encounters um Burning Man changed us
49:10
as much as it changed every single person that came in there oh yeah
49:17
absolutely oh yeah yeah we did not know uh God could be that big yeah or that
49:25
good yeah yeah or that creative or that anything named the blank that that fits
49:31
in with the characteristics of God we did not know yeah until we went over the edge and and said yes to this crazy
49:39
event yeah yeah and so to me God reveals himself uh you know Greater Grace the greater
49:46
level of areas of sin there's great grace available and but I think there's few of us I'll just address the
49:53
Christians and the audiences few of us that have this yes of I'll go there just my only parachute is God
50:01
you know yeah I remember you guys being I remember being told my first year that we didn't the team we
50:09
didn't go out there with an agenda and I remember thinking you guys were full of it I'm like of course we do we're going out there to you know save people you
50:15
know well it took me I don't know a year or two when I finally really understood
50:21
Jesus died for all Humanity most of whom won't acknowledge what he did for them
50:27
what we were called to do when going out there was to just love on people in his
50:32
name with No Agenda with no needed outcome from it other than to offer the
50:38
gift of the love of God in whatever form that took and then it was God's job then
50:43
to take the deposit we'd made and do with it whatever was going to happen it really released off of me any need for
50:51
it's not about that it's not about having to get to you know the point of Salvation or anything like that I am I
50:57
was out there really just giving out of the gifts that he'd given me personally
51:02
and allowing God's love to just flow to these people and to bring healing and
51:08
the touch of the whatever it looked like and it was it is in Paradigm shifting experience to to lay
51:16
down all agenda and to step into that River of the love of God and just allow yourself to be swept with it and to do
51:23
whatever comes out of that place that was I think for me the thing that changed me the most
51:30
um we had you asked about what protocols we had I had to do my process was like
51:35
battening down the hatches there were a lot of things that I was allowed to do so to speak or that I did books I read
51:42
things I watched whatever until I became part of the Burning Man team when you
51:47
know God would say we're not gonna you can't do those things because you didn't even realize the doors it was leaving
51:52
open so my process of battening down the hatches and submitting to discipline in
51:58
some of these areas but the the reward of being part of that and getting to
52:04
experience the love of God like that was just I mean there's nothing like it you're just never the same again after
52:09
you really just Dive In with everything into that that flow of God's love
52:16
I just want to validate what you said about um submitting and really trusting because um
52:22
you know I came out there and we had such a meaningful experience then I came to visit you guys and you know celebrate
52:28
Christmas with you and ate bear and drank wine and you know listen to music and and then
52:35
um but you guys even though we became close friends and kept in touch while I was traveling he had to wait five years
52:40
for me to come around literally five years like Labor Day Labor Day weekend 2015 is when we met and then I flipped
52:47
to quarterly and get baptized on I didn't fly up there for that I came to visit but you know but five years later
52:53
and there was never a point during that time where I felt ever felt any pressure
52:58
or any need or any pull or anything like that you just you just loved me for five years while I've traveled around the
53:05
world doing the craziest things and then I found out later behind the scenes you guys were praying for me like oh yeah
53:11
what is he doing oh no but that's a real that's a real Testament you know to to everything that
53:17
you're saying that just to be so open-handed about it when that can be so difficult like my church does Ministry
53:24
at abortion abortion clinics here in Phoenix has a nationwide and almost
53:30
International now Ministry for that and then also with Mormon temples and they're they're very open about like no
53:35
you're not actually the one that does anything you know the Holy Spirit you allow the Holy Spirit to work through you and don't personalize it and so I I
53:42
relate very much to that but then to see that to be able to to be able to vouch for it a thousand percent that I never
53:48
felt anything other than just you know pure love from you guys and how powerful and how challenging that must have been
53:54
for you to want so much for the people that you give to including me but not just me but then having to be like put
54:01
it in God's hands yeah yeah love is patient right yeah yeah I read that yeah
54:06
yeah that's pretty good yeah there were definitely times when I was involved in encounters and then releasing them back
54:14
out to the defilement of the Playa was heart-wrenching because you don't know what they're
54:20
going to choose but it wasn't our job is we just made the deposit that we were able to make and
54:26
come into God's hands yeah God is God Is Bigger Than previously thought oh yeah well you said a really
54:33
important word there you said defilement to the Playa and that's that is strong
54:39
proper Christian language for what's for what's going on right because I think when I tell people like I you know I'm
54:45
at Christ that Bernie Manor introduced himself to me or however the phrase I use it it's that um the people who know
54:50
about burning man even the even the gauziest friendliest videos on on YouTube you know show Hedonism and maybe
54:58
not full-on debauchery but you know it's it's definitely we'll call it a very open culture right but viewed through of
55:04
course through the secular lens it's this Shangri-La kind of experience which we'll get back to but viewed through a
55:10
Christian lens you know has as much pain as there is that's very real about being there there is a lot of sin and it's
55:18
hard to it's it's it's impossible to avoid that and so when you say batten down the hatches like yeah it's all
55:24
around you everywhere and as much as people really are concerned about their neighbors your neighbors might have the
55:30
orgy camp or whatever right they'll hold down your tents and a wind but
55:37
they might be naked while they're doing it oh hello there
55:42
you know what's really funny about that is the power and goodness of God because
55:48
we would never address their nakedness as they entered into the encounter tent to sit with us we just said well that's
55:56
God's domain we're not we're not here to judge their dress or lack of it but so
56:01
we get a lot of practice making eye contact yes really good at it but you know they
56:07
would sit down and this happened so many times suddenly they'd be looking for a
56:13
covering for their nakedness and we wouldn't we hadn't said a word
56:18
you know they'd be looking for a scarf or a shirt or something and and you know it just kind of amuses how God would
56:25
work in that area conviction's still alive no matter how much yeah they try to wallow conviction
56:32
and still be alive so um I want to give a shout out to uh uh
56:38
Darren Zinn who the present leader but also uh Lisa machek who co-led with me
56:44
for several years and Reese Saunders and Scott eblin who were the early guys from
56:50
students that did it I mean they they laid some serious tracks for for us to grow
56:57
um the other thing I wanted to say you talked about protocols there was actually a real
57:03
um uh nuts and bolts protocol thing that we learned from the Native American people
57:10
uh when we first came to Reno a small Church
57:15
hosted us and as part of that church there were a Native American couple and
57:21
their their son-in-law and their their daughter and they they came up to us and said do
57:27
you want to do protocol tonight so they did this very formal uh Native
57:33
American protocol where they danced we did a friendship dance they they spoke blessing over us they gave us gifts they
57:40
welcomed us into the land and we thought that was spiritual these
57:45
Native American Believers that Bluer blew our minds a bit and then they waited and so we went to dinner with
57:52
them and and they kind of waited for the US to feed back and so basically we were
57:58
saying different forms of what was that and so the answer came back from Dan
58:04
Mosley it was leading the group and he said basically we did it backwards when
58:10
you enter a stranger's land or a tribe land you are supposed to introduce
58:15
yourself and ask permission to enter the land those these are the old ways
58:23
and uh and then bring a gift we would have a gift exchange
58:28
and so after that for about four years they brought us around to about four
58:33
different tribes and we would meet um the chief or the tribal chairman and
58:40
maybe some members of of uh the governing body or whatever and we
58:47
would buy you know buy a Pendleton blanket we do a very formal presentation and we would ask them for permission to
58:54
enter the land for um and the reason we are doing it is
59:01
um to in order to speak the message of Jesus you know and whether they were saved
59:09
pre-saved didn't matter they recognized you are doing the old ways of honor and
59:15
in fact they're God's ways you're not just assuming you have the right to come into an area now you know
59:22
you're doing the old ways and we would get the blessing every time
59:28
um and we we credit that with putting a whole different level of blessing on us
59:34
both um as the uh the gatekeeper people that God
59:41
had there originally and and also the blessing of the land
59:48
the Playa the yeah just the land in general you know the these were ancient
59:53
lands owned by the people and um so this there's plenty of scriptures
59:59
in the Bible about the land how the land actually is meant to uh give us light
1:00:04
cooperate with the sons of God and and such so uh that's a whole nother
1:00:11
layer that would be another conversation so um
1:00:16
so I wonder so for those of you who who showed up in the later years maybe Barb or Katie I'm I I had this image in my
1:00:25
mind of so you've heard about the spirit dream camp and maybe you've seen photos and I would still like to go through
1:00:31
some of the photos but you heard about the camp and so you finally take the leap to go for the first time and so
1:00:37
you're in the RV or or in the car or whatever and you're actually going into
1:00:43
the land of Burning Man and you drive up and you're seeing like the welcome home kind of sign you're going through the
1:00:48
whole ritual like just walk me through that moment of like you're actually venturing into the place that you've
1:00:54
heard about well by the time I went of course I had
1:01:01
heard the stories about going into the gate how the welcoming committee there
1:01:07
and so I was I was actually anticipating that with great Delight
1:01:13
getting down and applying and doing dust angels and all that and so it was really quite exciting I'll
1:01:19
tell you though when we got the camp up and running uh that very first Year Rob
1:01:25
did not go that year that I went because he took the year off he and Lisa had
1:01:31
handed over the leadership of the camp to Darren
1:01:36
and so they thought it best that for him to get um off to a good start
1:01:43
they would stay back and allow him to run and uh which is a beautiful thing
1:01:50
because then they well Lisa didn't come back although she wanted to but a job took her away from that but
1:01:57
Rob was able to come back and do that successfully so that's another example
1:02:03
of a transition in leadership that worked successfully in this Arena where Rob
1:02:11
could come under rocket and um and work successfully with
1:02:17
him but anyway I went when Rob didn't and so with this whole change of leadership there was a lot of
1:02:23
changes to the team and I'm just coming on new and um so there was a lot of
1:02:29
things that I didn't understand until later you know nuances of changes in leadership and I was supportive as I
1:02:37
could be um but there was a time when I was in
1:02:42
the the um the coffee Dome and so that was I
1:02:48
they were kind of putting me here and there and so I was in the coffee Dome and they had prepped me a little bit
1:02:55
that people would give you gifts maybe they'll give you stones and so on because it's the giving culture and and
1:03:01
you know be sure that you look at them and discern our what you need to do with them do you keep them and and pray over
1:03:09
them and cleanse them or do you throw them away and this sort of thing so this happened and uh and this somebody gave
1:03:16
me some little stones and I felt like they were defiled and but I was
1:03:23
new you know all of this was kind of new to me and so I went to
1:03:28
um one of the people and the the leaders in the dome and I and it was almost like
1:03:33
she didn't even recognize me she looked at those and and she could feel that defilement and told me what to do but it
1:03:40
was almost like that defilement almost closed off who I was to her almost it
1:03:47
was really an interesting interesting exchange and I got rid of the stones and
1:03:52
clints and all of that but it really um instructed for me it was quite quite
1:03:58
and so that from that experience that one experience and I went on and I
1:04:04
didn't I was pretty clear about receiving gifts and what to do with them but that first the initial one that
1:04:11
breaking the ice in that Arena so to speak was quite um well
1:04:18
striking yeah how are you going to know right like there's so much to figure out as
1:04:23
you get on the ground about how the whole thing works right under the weather and the dust and the people like
1:04:30
someone hands you some rocks like that's not gonna be the first thing on your mind right right yeah right yeah yeah
1:04:36
and so when I by the time I came around the protocols were pretty well established so I know there was some
1:04:42
years prior to me coming that were pretty wonky I've heard the stories but um I started in 2012 and I just felt
1:04:50
really covered I mean Andrea was my official sponsor but I had all these guys there was I don't know
1:04:55
either of us or something like that that went from North Idaho at the time and so I just kind of like held on to their
1:05:02
coattails and went along with things and if there was anything that fell off that was the beauty of the structure is my
1:05:09
first point of contact if I didn't understand or whatever would be my sponsor it would have been Andrea but I
1:05:15
knew because we were already doing Ministry together up here we had a dream interpretation Ministry that we'd been doing already for a few years together
1:05:21
um our whole team I just felt that real sense of covering but that was kind of my grafting in so I had a little bit of
1:05:27
an easier on-ramp on that front I wasn't as concerned about the spiritual aspect
1:05:33
of it I was more a big baby about the Dust yeah and the discomfort and True
1:05:40
Confession yes I dodged the rolling in the dust at the gate my new year I don't
1:05:46
have to do it either I didn't want to I'm like I'm not doing that I didn't do it you didn't no how did you get out of
1:05:51
it you just like say no I don't know we basically lied and then repented later
1:05:59
we we told we told them we were so shocked that two bikini clad women with
1:06:05
skulls tattooed down their backs entering our bus and we're looking like
1:06:11
we came out of the 4-H club in costumes you know we're we're going
1:06:18
oh yeah we're cool we've been here before yeah they just thought you Liars just play it cool yeah yeah but I I had
1:06:27
it was it was a good thing going in feeling that covered uh but for me um I had to be kicked out of the nest a
1:06:33
little bit um because I was I was afraid to stay step out and wasn't speaking up like so
1:06:40
the I remember one encounter I had and there were three people on the team and
1:06:45
um it was a young woman and I felt like she needed a mother's blessing but
1:06:52
I wasn't gonna do it right I'm a Noob I'm just learning and pass so right so
1:06:57
the other two people in the team they gave her this encounter at the end of it I turned to the team lead a woman named
1:07:03
Deborah and I told her you know I kind of felt like this and she said you you need to speak up more she said if you
1:07:09
feel something like that you can whisper in my ear um and that she was gonna she'd give me the guidance so that I wouldn't derail
1:07:16
and do something stupid right well I was kicking myself I was so mad at myself because I knew this girl needed the love
1:07:23
of a mother and I was feeling it in my heart and I didn't extend it and I was really upset with myself and so I just
1:07:30
prayed I was like you know what God she I know she needs this and I miss the boat and anyway I just had to entrust
1:07:36
god with it um this is a great testimony about the Synergy of the spirit that our camp operated in so
1:07:43
that night at dinner we had dinner and then I go up to the station where we're washing our plates and I overhear one of
1:07:51
our other teammates Rochelle who actually is one of our Idaho teammates talking about this young gal who came
1:07:56
into the coffee Dome she had an encounter and she was really undone by her encounter and so she went into the
1:08:02
coffee Dome just to process which was really common when people would do that a lot and God highlighted this gal to
1:08:09
Rochelle and she went over and sat with her and um held her and blessed her as a mother
1:08:15
and all I started crying right there at the dishwashing station because it was like God had God had it God was more
1:08:22
invested in her getting that blessing of a mother than I was I was invited to be part of that but God had my back and had
1:08:29
this young gals back and boy what a testimony to the Synergy of the spirit
1:08:34
um just between the encounter tent and the coffee Dome there wasn't the communication going back and forth
1:08:40
verbally between us but boy the spirit made it known what was going on in those places and if one needed to pick up
1:08:46
where someone else left off so great learning experience for me in that and
1:08:52
Faith Builder too and how often did that work with body art I was just gonna say
1:08:57
that one of the things on our menu board was inspired art and so we had artists
1:09:03
who had actually asked God for a prophetic picture and they would paint that somewhere on
1:09:10
the person's body and then they would prophesy to them about that body art and
1:09:15
it would speak right into their heart just like an arrow and so often there was such a Synergy between
1:09:22
um the different aspects of our camp is that person then would go and have a
1:09:27
regular encounter like um to go from the coffee Dome where they had body art and then go into the
1:09:33
encounter tent and the people didn't see their body or that they just got painted but they would have the same exact word
1:09:40
that they were just given with the with the picture and then they would show them oh my gosh yeah what they just
1:09:46
painted on me yeah and vice versa that would happen you know they would go to encounter first they'd get some
1:09:51
incredible word and then they'd go get body art and she would she would paint exactly what she the person just
1:09:57
encountered without knowing yeah I had a great story actually Katie and I were on
1:10:02
a team together and this was um early on and I remember you'd gotten a picture of
1:10:07
this gal that she was like a a water jug but there was a crack and so it was like
1:10:13
all this stuff in here just was leaking out it was a picture and it just kept leaking out and it was and so it was a
1:10:19
healing Journey that we took her on to heal this place in her heart where it was it was not a good leaking out I
1:10:25
can't remember the exact gist of it so she goes from our encounter and into the coffee Dome doesn't share what the
1:10:32
encounter was and meet up the team member in there who was painting on her painted a water pitcher on the scal's
1:10:38
arm wow no crack yeah and not knowing what had happened and we heard about that later and it was like mind blown
1:10:45
like yes and she her mind was blown oh yeah absolutely yeah yeah this is great
1:10:51
yeah I had to do that I've actually got the picture of the coffee Dome here let me share it real quick yeah I've got a
1:10:56
bunch of pictures actually it's here we go that's the coffee dome right yeah yeah
1:11:01
yes we've got the speakers and the DJ set up what was that no DJ we just said no yeah
1:11:09
speakers with music got it yes I created a uh the music the playlist and we would
1:11:15
just play it was uh I had a new several playlists that I could play during the
1:11:22
day and uh we played that it's a variety of Music we did have a real we have a
1:11:29
lot of wonderful Encounters in the Dome the coffee Dome one I think we all
1:11:34
remember is there and of course the coffee Dome we pray through it and cleanse it and so
1:11:41
on but still things get through and I'm sure there was one day when there's one spot one specific area in the coffee
1:11:48
Dome that was attracting licentiousness and
1:11:54
um naked yeah it kind of sensuality kind of things and and so we had to monitor
1:12:02
all that of course and so we're going hmm there's something up here and so uh
1:12:07
one of the gals had maybe it was was Rochelle I forget who it was Rochelle
1:12:12
had the sense of um we need a mom no no no she she went
1:12:18
she she tried all of her tricks okay didn't know what to do and so she went
1:12:23
to our kitchen lady named amphora and said please come help us this is what's
1:12:30
happening we don't know what to do and so amphora goes into the Dome and she's like praying going God what am I
1:12:36
supposed to do I don't know what to do and as she walks into the Dome she hears the Lord say to her children don't like
1:12:44
to sin in front of their mothers and so she felt like she was supposed to
1:12:49
release a mother's blessing over that spot and so she did that she released a mother's blessing over that spot and the
1:12:56
licenses never happened again oh wow a creative solution yeah yeah
1:13:02
yeah I think this was one of the things that I remember being really struck by is you know for me spending all the time
1:13:09
in Secular Progressive new age whatever mystical culture you know the perception of energy is very real
1:13:15
right and then and once you once I got a an understanding of that it's not something that I could ever forget or
1:13:22
deny was a real was a real thing right and so um and so I think what you guys did so
1:13:28
well is you had that awareness you had that understanding which gave you uh not
1:13:34
only the ability to have spiritual insight into what was going on around you but also to communicate with people
1:13:39
from the culture about this phenomenon that usually gets dismissed by so many other people that you can actually feel
1:13:46
energy things can be invested with the energy of of someone or something or an act or something like that but a lot of
1:13:52
people don't have that um that sense and so for you going out to burning man if you don't have that
1:13:58
sense you don't develop your that sense you'll be in real danger because it's real and then also for people that are
1:14:04
looking to communicate on that level about this way that they have of perceiving reality quite accurately not
1:14:10
always but sometimes quite accurately you know it you can meet them on the level that they're at especially
1:14:16
especially me to be able to understand that yeah the coexisting spiritual realm is very
1:14:24
real in both kingdoms yeah say more say more about that unpacked yes and yeah
1:14:32
well well you know and I I prefer the excuse me
1:14:37
put the put the weight on the Kingdom of Light God's kingdom yeah because
1:14:42
we all know too well how people get afraid of curses and and things that
1:14:48
satanists and witches might do but um listen in God's kingdom a curse
1:14:54
causeless shall not come in a scripture shall not land you know
1:15:00
um unless there is a cause and then but we have the out of repentance you know and we also know that who's given us all
1:15:07
authority over all works of the enemy you know so we don't have to be subject
1:15:14
to that we can change the atmosphere we can train the curses on ground but we
1:15:19
could also change the curses over people and we don't have to live with that stuff and when there's an intentionality
1:15:25
of 35 people on a team and a big yes in other words we're agreed in faith that's
1:15:33
a big yes it's easier to operate that way you know we're not wading through a
1:15:39
mass of unbelief one of the one of the unfortunate things about many of our
1:15:45
Christian circles is there's a lot of unbelief as to what God can do or who he is yeah so it's very hard to Wade
1:15:52
through a wall of unbelief and Jesus you know there's several times when you
1:15:59
have to take out the people that didn't believe would I think it was his
1:16:04
mother-in-law to heal the mother-in-law and said you people leave you're interfering with the ability to heal and
1:16:11
then there were whole cities that Jesus couldn't go because they did not their unbelief was so strong and you know if
1:16:19
your unbelief is really strong then you must be believing in something else like fear right so that's not good right
1:16:26
Peter's mother-in-law Peter's mother-in-law not Jesus's mother I was gonna ask I was like do I say
1:16:33
that's fine yeah they've got it yeah boy
1:16:38
I don't remember which book that was in yeah yeah
1:16:45
anyways uh we just know that it's it's our privilege and joy to change
1:16:54
call it change that sounds strange but change the atmosphere you know if it's dark we come to bring light in fact we
1:17:01
are the light of the world just our presence when we personalize that and be very
1:17:07
intentional because Jesus said it you're the light of the world yeah what does that mean that means you are radiating
1:17:14
something that changes the land the atmosphere the people around you we were also very intentional about
1:17:22
um creating the atmosphere within our camp where the presence of God would be
1:17:27
the you know the fullest and that that's also part of the story of you know the
1:17:32
progression of things is the art because Burning Man is an art festival and the
1:17:38
first few years I went we were you know the ladies in the in the camp were just decorating the tent
1:17:44
with some pretty fabrics and you know just kind of throwing it together but God put it on my heart about my third
1:17:51
year to be more intentional and create something specific and he put it on my
1:17:57
heart to do a tree of life and so he gave me the download of how to do that how to create this tree of life
1:18:03
with these you know branches and leaves hanging down and everything and it absolutely transformed the atmosphere
1:18:10
that was in that encounter tint just like uh when God gave specific
1:18:17
directions with his Tabernacle or his Temple he he had all kinds of specific
1:18:22
art he wanted created in there and then it was a place for him to dwell and when you go through that
1:18:30
intentionality to partner with god with his creativity what do you want to release in this space artistically then
1:18:37
his presence comes and and it just transformed we call it atmosphere design and by the time you came along we had
1:18:43
done the tree of life for four years and God gave us a new theme which was the visions of Ezekiel so you came in to
1:18:51
whirlwinds and rainbows and creatures with eyes all around a lot of strange
1:18:56
images Wheels within Wheels within Wheels yeah that was what I needed what
1:19:03
I needed to see say more because you had mentioned early Ezekiel Ezekiel earlier in the conversation
1:19:10
you know what if the very images from the Bible that God tells us to do what
1:19:17
if there's a whole power and ability to shift directions or motion there's a lot of
1:19:23
motion yeah you know this is just to get people thinking you know what if because
1:19:29
again that coexisting spiritual realm is because the bail is rent and we have
1:19:35
access to the Heavenly realm of God these things become more real to us it's
1:19:41
it's more than Fabric in color yeah yeah you had an encounter with that face
1:19:49
of Jesus yes I did yeah like wearing goggles yes yes he did that's the wild part
1:19:57
because you know I I I I tell the story and it would be easy easy it would be
1:20:03
easy to dismiss what I saw if it was just if it was just a face from a
1:20:08
painting like thoughts can be transferred between people right like you could be standing behind me Katie I
1:20:14
remember you had your hands on either side of my head and you could be concentrating on the face of Jesus and maybe I'd pick up on it right like a
1:20:20
carbon copy but that wasn't what it was it's like a man walked up to me wearing goggles like wearing Burning Man goggles
1:20:26
to protect himself from the dust like what do you what what do you even what do I even do with that like
1:20:33
exactly exactly yeah and that was part of like the four faces that was part of
1:20:38
what Ezekiel Saw that was part of your your decorative shift let's say yeah it was the living creatures with the faces
1:20:44
so the face of an ox the face of a lion the face of an eagle in the face of a man and you know it doesn't say in there
1:20:52
that the face of a man is a basic Jesus but I decided when I painted that to use
1:20:57
akiana's painting of Jesus as my model and it was just a sketch it wasn't like
1:21:04
a full painting it was just a sketch of a man's face but you're not the only one that recognized it as Jesus there was
1:21:10
another woman that came in and came to my my encounter group one day and she
1:21:17
wanted Deliverance she asked she plain out said I have two demons can you get
1:21:22
rid of them said oh yeah we can we can do that if
1:21:28
we're gonna do that I need to use the name Jesus is that okay with you and she said oh yes I recognized him
1:21:34
when I came in I saw him on that thing I'm like wow I never said that was Jesus
1:21:41
it was yeah it was apparent yeah I could kind of tell it was Jesus but I still remember Katie I asked you because yeah
1:21:48
you asked me is that Jesus I knew it but I was like okay I don't want to walk out of this moment this is the thought that
1:21:53
was going through my head is I don't want to walk out of this moment and then later be like okay maybe that was some guy who was the founder of the camp or
1:22:00
something like that some human some some other person right so I wanted to make sure so that's why I asked but do you
1:22:07
have that picture well in the the lineup of pictures you have that picture of you in front of the the face of Jesus that
1:22:13
manner oh yeah they'll pull that up right now let's see whoever had the camera got
1:22:19
some great pictures yeah oh man let's go through yeah so this one right this one of me on my knees yeah yes yeah
1:22:26
yeah and my and you can see like you can see the dirt on top of my head because I found my head down and you can see the
1:22:31
dust on my feet and everything yeah yeah and then when I took the picture with you that which I can see there also I
1:22:38
asked if you wanted to wipe because I said oh you've got some Playa dust and you said no I want to leave it there yeah yeah the one right above there yeah
1:22:45
this one yeah you can see it on your face yeah yeah and the and the and the gifts that you
1:22:52
guys gave the necklaces I'm wearing yeah you guys made those for the people who came and you also gave me apply a name I
1:22:58
never I hadn't I'd been three times and I hadn't been given one before yeah oh what was it oh was it
1:23:05
yeah because you're like a strong Oak yes I was uh I was definitely a
1:23:12
different version of myself back then as well which I think you'd probably see in the photo oh yeah totally very different
1:23:18
completely different and then so listen you've got this one you've got this photo here what's this this is Barb this
1:23:23
is you with somebody yeah at home with Mother's blessings yeah yeah there we go yeah loving on a burner
1:23:30
and so as as the so here's some you have some photos of Burning Man this is what the you know oh there's there's the man
1:23:36
I don't know what year that would have been but the man was still on the ground so I guess it was probably
1:23:41
2000s somewhere yeah yeah I don't know and then there's the man again oh that
1:23:48
was the da Vinci's yeah and she's Workshop Adventures yep oh man
1:23:56
yeah I mean I think for people who haven't been before like there's a lot of infrastructure that goes into burning
1:24:02
man and one of the things that I wanted to say earlier was that you know if you were doing Ministry at a place like um
1:24:07
North Korea or China like those countries you know and the cities in them they're fixed in in place and they
1:24:15
don't go anywhere Beijing is not going anywhere right you can go there and it's it's consistent
1:24:21
um from year to year day to day hour to hour but Burning Man really only exists for the public for one week out of the
1:24:28
year and it's constantly changing and it's very much while there are a lot of principles that stay the same it's also
1:24:34
a moving Target right to be able to be able to so when you talk about going into the culture like yes there are
1:24:40
consistent aspects of the culture that are durable from year to year but at the same time every year you went in I
1:24:47
imagine you went into somewhat very different environments especially as it grew like if you were there from 2002
1:24:54
sorry 2004 to 2016 I went in 2003 so I know what it was like back then and then
1:25:00
I came back in 2013 and I Met You in 2015 but that 10-year period I went
1:25:06
through inflationary growth I remember in 2003 it was like 30 000 people you could walk the whole festival and didn't
1:25:12
need a bike when I went back in 2013 forget walking anywhere and the festival was like 60 or it doubled in size so
1:25:20
what was like what was that like being on the ground year over year watching the festival grow and change it kind of
1:25:25
become that moving Target Shangri-La yeah I don't know we just sort of we
1:25:31
just ourselves you know that's true yeah we just rode with it it's like you said
1:25:37
if you wanted to go look at it when it's 80 000 people it's a lot different yeah
1:25:42
yeah I won't say though that I mean as as a Believer who sees what sin does to
1:25:50
people it is it was very disturbing to see the growth to see how that was
1:25:57
spreading and the lawlessness that was being bred out there and then also being
1:26:03
taken from burning man out into the world yeah it's it's grieving yeah
1:26:09
that's true because there was an intentionality too that we were aware of by The Burning Man leadership to do
1:26:16
forums across the world and to kind of spread that sort of gospel of uh
1:26:22
yeah the gospel of Burning Man so to speak so that's happened the weight of evil
1:26:29
was growing so okay let's let's talk about that for a minute because I
1:26:35
remember when I went out in 2003 and the festival had kind of this wild west kind
1:26:40
of spirit but there was like a when I say there's a lawfulness you know at least everyone's like we don't really
1:26:45
know what we're doing so here's some fire and here's some plywood and here's some crazy kind of lasers and art like cool yeah it's fun but when I went back
1:26:52
in 2013 it felt like the festival had quote gone pro right and then there was
1:26:58
a solidity to it and there was a permissiveness there was a darker permissiveness to it like the wild west
1:27:05
has a permissiveness but I would say it also had a sense of like experimentation within defined
1:27:12
boundaries somehow but then it felt like 2013 that it flipped and I don't know
1:27:17
how to articulate it but I did feel that the evil had grown quite significant and only continued to from 2013 2015 up
1:27:25
until up until the present day like talk about that experience because that's the that's the the discernment that I'm
1:27:32
trying to have is like I don't think everything there was all bad all the time but it certainly felt over time
1:27:38
there was more bad more of the time as the years went on sure yeah all I can
1:27:43
say is I've I'm I've always been a very sensitive person to atmospheres to
1:27:49
what's in people you know I'm I'm a Feeler and so I have to say in the 10
1:27:55
years I went I grew so much but every single year I would enter the Playa and be you know my
1:28:03
senses were accosted by what was out there and so as we'd be setting up our
1:28:08
camp I'm like oh God why am I here again [Laughter]
1:28:14
and then you know by the time we get rolling with the ministry then you're you know you're refocused on why you're
1:28:20
there again and you know and the grace of God comes over you but yeah you have to deal with that you have to deal with
1:28:26
that yeah well if you look at the 10 principles that Rob's got them printed out here the 10 principles of Burning Man I remember reading that before I
1:28:33
went out the first time and really they've got some pretty altruistic principles that the the event was
1:28:38
founded upon yeah but um what ended up happening is it just degenerated into a big orgy yeah uh so by the time we
1:28:46
retired in 2017 uh the tide had turned to the point that even the true burners
1:28:52
like the people who'd been around for a long time since the beginning of it they were having been a hard time with the
1:28:58
direction that it had gone because it they've gotten away from this kind of radical generosity radical Community I
1:29:05
mean the the principles essential core principles are not bad a bad thing but
1:29:11
what got built upon that was just yuckier and yuckier as they just got darker and darker as the years went on
1:29:17
yeah the principles were went by the wayside
1:29:22
uh and that people going really didn't consider them that much it seemed like
1:29:28
to me it was more like oh we're going to Burning Man and we're gonna let anything
1:29:33
fly yeah throw off all Innovations and just yeah you know dive into all the sin
1:29:39
yep you know that they didn't do in normal life yeah I remember one one year
1:29:45
there was a group of Ira young Irish uh
1:29:50
kid that had I think they had graduated high school whatever that is over there
1:29:55
and kind of were young beginning College when they a group of them came over and
1:30:01
one of the things that they were going to do while in the States was go to burning man it's like you know it had
1:30:07
grown worldwide to that kind of a oh let's go to Burning Man and you know let
1:30:13
experience anything and everything in it I I don't think any one of them really
1:30:19
uh um would say they they could quote any
1:30:24
of those principles yeah yeah it wasn't why they were there yeah yeah can you
1:30:30
read the principles real quick just so everyone knows what they are um sure
1:30:35
[Music] so um
1:30:41
radical inclusion No Stranger you know got uh we we worked
1:30:48
under when when we're the first year we were there we were with IHOP and the leader Randy Bollinger he was actually a
1:30:55
pastor and he actually befriended um Larry Harvard Larry Harvey the the
1:31:01
founder Visionary he befriended him I mean they became Buds and there was a
1:31:06
video that came out called Pastor on the Playa they interviewed him and and he
1:31:11
went and said you know God can work with any of these principles yep and so the
1:31:17
bigger thing as I read these is choice and how you do that people got at the
1:31:22
center or do you put your own desires at the center so radical inclusion next one
1:31:28
is gifting we're all about God's greatest gift you're all about gifting uh D
1:31:34
commodification um in order to preserve the spirit of
1:31:40
gifting our community seeks to create social environments that are un mediated by commercial sponsorships transactions
1:31:47
or advertising and I remember in the early days you have to even block lettering like U-Haul on a trailer they
1:31:55
didn't want any commercial thing at all uh radical self-reliance Burning Man
1:32:01
encouraged individuals to discover exercise and rely on their inner
1:32:06
resources radical self-expression uh unique recognizing the unique gifts
1:32:14
of the individual and no one is like you and you should have Liberty to exercise that well you can see where that can go
1:32:21
off the cliff or produce beautiful art you know communal effort our community
1:32:27
creates Cooperative cooperation and collaboration we strive to produce promote and protect social networks
1:32:34
public spaces works of art methods of communication civic responsibility we value Civil
1:32:41
Society committee members who organize events should assume responsibility for public
1:32:49
welfare um
1:32:55
makes sense I'll read that again you broke up for just a second God created when yeah leaving no Trace was
1:33:02
yeah yeah yeah our participation is committed to
1:33:09
radically participatory ethic and uh
1:33:15
I only wish churches were more like pets All In
1:33:21
and then immediacy uh immediate experience is in many ways the most important Touchstone of value in our
1:33:28
culture we seek to overcome barriers that stand between us and recognition of our inner selves the reality of those
1:33:34
around us participation in society and contact with a natural world exceeding
1:33:41
human powers no idea can substitute for this experience of immediacy
1:33:49
yeah I mean you can see yeah I mean they're they're good for what they are but definitely it's easy to see how you
1:33:55
could build anything off of that especially the what is radical self-expression because my experience of
1:34:01
going to Burning Man from secular culture was at at least by 2013 2015. it had become that however you choose to
1:34:10
express yourself is is innately spiritual and therefore
1:34:15
good so if you want to go out there and you want to and and you can be whoever you are in in the everyday life and then
1:34:22
you go out to Burning Man you go quote home right home was where you belong not the 51 weeks out of the year but that
1:34:28
one weekend of the year you're home and then you go out to Burning Man and then if you want to walk around naked and
1:34:33
paint yourself blue and get into orgies and do all the drugs and do all the stuff that is your self that is your radical self-expression your
1:34:40
self-expression is inherently spiritual and if inherently spiritual it is inherently good and that that definitely
1:34:47
grew and even to the point where it became almost expected then you know
1:34:53
back in 2003 I remember you didn't have to dress up if you did cool you know it was encouraged but by 2013 15 there was
1:35:00
like a uniform it's kind of expected you had a furry vest and if you're not doing that then you're not properly
1:35:05
participating so it was like almost this real subtle air of shaming around like no you're supposed to be crazier if
1:35:11
you're not crazy you're not at Burning Man it's like why do I gotta be that I want to be that way like I'm here for
1:35:16
different reasons but it almost it almost tried to start pulling the worst out of people and I think it succeeded in many ways
1:35:23
for for an art community who said we all have to look like a Mad Max movie yeah
1:35:29
right steampunk whatever yeah yeah who said that was a standard yeah yeah
1:35:35
so as you guys you guys would do your your ministry work during the day what was it like when you would go riding
1:35:41
around at night like I knowing what we've talked about that the day is full of so many protocols and so much
1:35:47
spiritual cleansing and so much keeping yourself safe within your own God protected space then you really Venture
1:35:53
into the the Heart of Darkness in some ways the night that burning man would be coming this is where we went yeah
1:36:00
we wanted to see the cool art we didn't go into the dark dark places yeah we
1:36:06
just stayed away from that yeah we I remember one year going to see we typically we'd want to see the man and
1:36:12
maybe see the temple um and the one year was a carnival I don't remember what the theme was but it
1:36:18
was a Carnival Carnival of mirrors yeah I mean carnivals are already creepy enough and then you throw the Burning
1:36:23
Man element at it and we went to see the man but it was amazed that you had to go through and we didn't realize we got
1:36:30
into it and it got darker and we'd always travel in groups also we didn't go anywhere Alone
1:36:35
um and then um we realized uh actually this is too too far too dark and trying
1:36:41
to get out of there um I kind of started to panic I was like looking the walls were so tall I was thinking can I climb that like I want it
1:36:47
out so bad because it was just too far it was too dark so we were we were
1:36:52
careful where we went and right yeah plus I don't know it was it every night
1:36:58
was different but usually when I would only go out maybe once maybe twice uh on
1:37:05
the Playa at night do because I wanted to see the the cars and the and like
1:37:10
they said the the man and so on but I you know once I saw that it was like
1:37:16
okay well I'm just good with chilling in our camp and sitting around and chatting
1:37:21
with people drinking some wine and oftentimes we were so exhausted yeah by the end of the day because we would be
1:37:27
ministering heavily all day I didn't want to go out I went out once just to
1:37:33
see the cool things and then I would stay at home yeah and rest I'm an old guy I want to go to bed at night yeah by
1:37:40
my last couple years I didn't go out at night anymore I didn't I don't think I went out the
1:37:45
last time there was a couple times when a couple of our team members their son had an art car yeah and he would take us
1:37:52
out and that was different because we were all together on this car and it just felt a lot more protected so that
1:37:57
was fun now there was one year when uh just down the street not too far from us
1:38:03
um there was a little camp that was showing these old movies and and we did
1:38:08
Venture down there and watched uh Princess Bride Princess Bride Monty Python the whole it was a quotable movie
1:38:14
so the expectation is that you could quote it the entire movie if you wanted to which was so cool that was fun yeah
1:38:20
yeah yeah there were a couple camps we would find that were lighter yeah uh and there was a wine Camp down the way a
1:38:27
couple years yeah and they had like corn hole in the hula hoops and um but that was pretty clean you know
1:38:33
the bottom line is if you give people the freedom to do whatever they want to do without being judged there are people
1:38:40
who will Choose Wisely and people who will choose badly yeah yeah so you find
1:38:46
it all out there oh yeah yeah and as you guys started to get more well known and people started to realize like
1:38:53
there's this thing going on over there what was that like when people started to figure out kind of who you guys who
1:38:58
you guys were I mean there must have been a moment where that happened yeah but you know I think
1:39:04
by then um they have they honored us they respected us I mean I even in the part
1:39:11
of the early years uh part of our learning curve is they would encourage us they would go oh
1:39:18
no don't leave early you're part of our community you know and we you know we told them
1:39:23
listen we're kind of done when they're going to burn the man and yeah Saturday night but but you know they they would
1:39:33
they did a lot to say you're you are part of us you're burners and indeed we had to embrace that to go no we're
1:39:40
we fit we were sent into this culture to fit in a way but but with a difference
1:39:47
you know yeah so they honored that yeah and we definitely developed relationships with certain other camps
1:39:53
there was one camp in particular Rhythm wave there were five rhythms dance camp and um
1:39:59
what's that ecstatic dance where you just kind of move your body yeah yeah uh
1:40:04
they would actually send their new team members to have an encounter and they would say go Monday or Tuesday first
1:40:12
part of the week because that we weren't as busy um and so the first couple of days it was really common for us to have rhythm
1:40:18
waiver after Rhythm weather in our encounters because they just had them all come or the people who had been before they knew show up early in the
1:40:25
week it's easier to get in and get an encounter so we would see them and then we would um we got to the point where we'd have a meal with them every year
1:40:32
um so really neat relationship developed there with that we also had people that said that told us they they would come
1:40:39
to Burning Man in order to come to our campus yes it was their privilege to come to our camp Yeah Yeah Carl or
1:40:46
people just you know get so blown away they go
1:40:51
I don't have to see the rest of Burning Man they need to go home or they just do what Andrew just said they just hang out
1:40:57
in the coffee Dome all the time yeah so they sort of adopted us yeah and I think
1:41:03
some of those that seemed like there were also some that were repeaters to our camp that also began to leave early
1:41:11
before the burning of a man because it was getting so dark even too dark for them it's like nah we're done yeah
1:41:18
yeah I completely get that um you know it's it's I I I think of you
1:41:25
guys as as odd as as odd as it sounds embodying the best principles of Burning
1:41:30
Man right like like you took it in the right direction you know rather than towards darkness and self-indulgence and
1:41:37
and uh and uh what we might call spiritual materialism or material spiritualism right like oh what I do
1:41:43
with my body is spiritual right spiritual materialism you guys actually took it in in the right direction embodied all the same principles but in
1:41:50
the direction of of light and goodness and beauty and virtue and of course God but you didn't wear God on the outside
1:41:56
like there wasn't a big cross at the front you know what I mean it wasn't it wasn't like a church it was you wore
1:42:02
these principles in who you were and what you did and let them speak for themselves in a way towards virtue so it
1:42:08
makes sense to me that people would come and experience what you have to offer and be like yeah I've gotten everything I need out of Burning Man other than
1:42:14
like oh look at the cool Blinky things and then I go home right right yeah and it all goes back to that
1:42:20
hunger inherent and so many of the people that spirituality was there
1:42:26
and basically our mission was to find it to meet it and to redefine it redefine
1:42:33
it for people over there or give it an interpretation if they didn't know what
1:42:38
they were feeling yeah that's the beauty of God I think he I think he likes doing that you know he
1:42:46
put the hunger there originally you put put the empty hole in the human heart that needs to be filled only within yeah
1:42:53
yeah with that note it's 110 and I have an appointment at 1 30. oh
1:43:00
I have a couple more questions but I mean I can take for the rest of the three of you and Andrea if you have to go by all means or we can wrap it up now
1:43:06
if you guys have to all go together but it's no problem they can carry on okay it's lovely to see you thank you for
1:43:12
thank you great to be part of this thank you good to see you
1:43:17
oh nice Kim yes oh no I said hi
1:43:23
hi Andrew yeah so I I think for me the one part of
1:43:28
my story and we'll just go for just a few more minutes if that's okay the one part of the story that I don't often talk about is how I actually how I
1:43:35
actually should we move our we look a little lopsided now exactly yeah is
1:43:41
actually how I came reorganizing the frame
1:43:51
all right anyway we feel better now perfect more balanced right feng shui is
1:43:58
actually how I came to even meet the guy who directed me to your camp in the first place so as I've I've mentioned
1:44:05
other other places I was dating this woman for a number of years and that relationship ended and this was at the
1:44:11
end of August 2015 and suddenly it's like well I'm not in this relationship anymore I'm okay with camping in tents
1:44:18
she was more of an RV kind of girl and I was like well now I can go so I just decided I felt a strong call to go to
1:44:24
Burning Man and so I went and people are always selling tickets at the last minute but the thing is I rode with a
1:44:30
bunch of people in with an RV and we we wrote we wrote Into the to the festival and the thing was no one no one knew
1:44:38
that I was coming you know so it's like suddenly I'm just showing up normally people spend a year planning what camp they're going to be
1:44:43
with and they contribute to camps monetarily and organizationally I'm just showing up kind of like as an orphan
1:44:48
right and so I'm in this RV full of guys I don't remember who's in the RV and they don't know where to park either not
1:44:54
because of me because they don't know where they're going right and so the RV as we're driving onto the Playa tries to
1:45:02
stop at three or four different locations right now and I know that I have friends I have the coordinates for
1:45:07
my friends camps are all over all over the Playa from like you know uh 11
1:45:12
o'clock you know on the clock face it's five o'clock and I think like you know three or four o'clock and so trying to
1:45:19
figure out where to park and we end up just parking the first place they could find a spot to fit their RV because it
1:45:26
was like Wednesday right and so by that point the festival's kind of filling up and finding places to park your RV
1:45:32
closer to the center versus The Rim you know is really difficult so we park in this uh particular spot that isn't part
1:45:40
of anyone's Camp it's just a free space so that meant I was closer to one Camp than another one and we were drove
1:45:46
around for like an hour and a half trying to find a place to park and that meant I was closer to one camp and then another so I'm like okay I can either
1:45:52
hitch a ride an art car all the way to the other side of the festival to meet up with one group of group of friends or
1:45:58
I can just carry all my stuff two or three blocks to this other Camp it's like okay I'll just carry my stuff and
1:46:04
see what they have and so if the RV had parked somewhere else and because I went there and set up when I did and put my
1:46:10
tent right where it was went to sleep woke up in the morning and then that morning is when I met the guy who
1:46:16
directed meteor Camp because he was an attempt next to me like if I had arrived if I had if we had parked on the other
1:46:22
side of the Playa I would I never would have I mean who knows right like you know God makes all things work right right you know what the coincidence
1:46:30
Coincidence of me of the RV struggling to find a place to park so we could park
1:46:35
in that space so that I could be at that camp and meet that guy the morning after
1:46:40
he had seen you guys yeah all those pieces lining up that got me there in the first place yeah I mean it's it
1:46:47
blows my mind yeah I love that kind of hindsight when you see the hand of God orchestrating things behind the scenes
1:46:53
that you're completely unaware of and the outcome is phenomous it is mind-blowing yeah
1:46:59
yeah and then you know just last couple questions like are you still other than
1:47:05
me are you still in touch with anybody from the um from the event or do you ever get feedback of like oh I met you
1:47:11
guys and you set my life in a whole new direction or yeah yeah I heard from a um
1:47:17
a guy that he lives in New York City he had a radical in common with God uh the
1:47:23
year we were with him um yeah he just was wondering if we were going and
1:47:29
um I don't perceive you know it was a slight chat and he was getting ready to
1:47:34
get on a plane to come here it was like a last minute getting ready to go to burning man it was a last minute thing
1:47:41
so we didn't carry on a big chat but yeah I thought it was significant he got
1:47:46
in touch yeah there was a one man from Rhythm wave um named Rich actually I was involved in
1:47:54
an encounter with him it was my newbie year and coming to find out it was his also and Rob had been telling me
1:48:01
there'll come a moment when the penny will drop which is that moment when you just it's like something in you just
1:48:09
grasp into what's happening there the move of God and um it was in the encounter with Rich it's when it
1:48:15
happened and um I was undone by it and he was undone by it he went over in the coffee Dome afterwards apparently and
1:48:21
was in there weeping and crying and anyway the next year he came back for an encounter and randomly was seated with
1:48:29
my encounter team and it was that moment of recognition and excitement to see each other well after that every year
1:48:35
when he came he would actually ask to be seated with me and watching the process of him coming to the Lord over the years
1:48:43
how so the encounters that he had with us were significant touch points so he
1:48:49
and I still keep in touch Loosely you guys ran into him randomly at a Native
1:48:54
American uh event that you guys went to yeah yeah um and then also there was one year
1:49:01
where there was this young German gal that came to our camp and she had come with her sister and her sister was
1:49:08
wholly embracing The Burning Man experience and this gal was completely freaked out by the Bernie Mac experience
1:49:14
and ended up coming I think every day for an encounter um as she hung out in
1:49:20
the coffee Dome a lot we were a safe space for her um she and I have been communicating a little bit also which has been really
1:49:26
cool so um I know and there was a maybe not so much now but um for a few
1:49:34
years there was a another gal in San Francisco and she might be in touch with
1:49:39
some of the other uh team members yeah uh yeah and Shannon and yeah yeah
1:49:46
I think there's some of the other team members that are in touch with some of
1:49:51
the people they came across as well yeah like this yeah so you know it's one of the things that we've learned actually
1:49:56
through the ministry um that I mean me learning it through the dream interpretation Ministry you
1:50:02
guys had already had a lot of experience with that is the whole thing of God entrusts us with this whatever
1:50:07
Encounters in front of us are responsible for that and then beyond that it's up to God where he's going to take things so learning to release
1:50:15
to God the responsibility for what happens after that yeah um because like
1:50:21
I said it's pretty hard sometimes to you know watch them walk out of our encounter tent back out into whatever
1:50:27
was going to happen out there but uh we just you know would do what we were called to do in the little time that we
1:50:33
had with them and then beyond that it's up to God you know and I learned so much also about the the reach of God's arm
1:50:40
you know if if he can direct people to our camp at Burning Man to get that
1:50:46
significant of an encounter he can do it anywhere yeah yeah exactly
1:50:51
and I just one one more question is is uh I don't I don't want to ask but that means that I that I that I I have to ask
1:50:58
is that I want to walk through my encounter through your eyes because I've told the story through my eyes so many
1:51:03
times and I think about it all the time so like just just walk through like this guy shows up in front of you in like
1:51:10
three and a half hours later and then five years later if there's anything you want to share for that that um yeah
1:51:15
please feel free you know for for from my perspective as
1:51:21
I was thinking about this I I loved how it unfolded because I could see uh when
1:51:30
you sat down we get started and you know I could I could feel and sense and see
1:51:37
um your and feel that that thing in the spirit where you're you're coming
1:51:45
forward and you're sharing some stuff and then you pull back this back and forth and how how much can we go and it
1:51:51
was like almost like an onion you know like we get through
1:51:56
one thing and you go wow you kind of be really impacted and then yeah yeah I
1:52:01
want some more and we would just keep going and I remember it was a beautiful
1:52:06
thing um and I remember which I really highly
1:52:12
value this will because not everybody would do this but when that point in
1:52:18
time when you said uh I forget the words that you use but basically you were
1:52:24
talking about your relationship with men and father figures and so on and and uh
1:52:29
questioned Larry yeah and I thought that was brilliant I was I still to this day
1:52:34
it's like that was so cool that you had the courage you had the fortitude go no I'm
1:52:41
here now and I'm not gonna bail because I'm I'm questioning this guy's
1:52:48
intentions or whatever and you just brought it out and that gave Larry the
1:52:53
opening to be able to express his heart to you and I just thought that was a beautiful beautiful thing and I loved
1:53:00
how you how that common that coming forward and coming back and this whole
1:53:06
thing and and going yeah no that was good I think I can take some more let's go yeah yeah yeah yeah your
1:53:13
voraciousness came through in that encounter yeah you were actually an easy encounter in that way because of your
1:53:21
hunger or your willingness your openness uh that we definitely had encounters over the years where we were really
1:53:27
having to try to draw people out and you were there to you were like bring it and
1:53:34
I just and the of the unfolding is a great way of saying it you know we we
1:53:40
wouldn't know it was kind of a weird sensation to be sitting in our seats and waiting for someone to be seated in
1:53:45
front of us like from one encounter the next we had no idea idea what was going to be seated with us and I would always
1:53:52
try to guess you know like you were saying you were looking and seeing which team you want to be with I would try to guess like okay which one are they going
1:53:58
to seat next and yeah I was almost always wrong but anyway not knowing what was going to happen and then to have you sit down with just your um
1:54:06
just openness and hunger and um it was an incredible faith-building encounter
1:54:12
for me and probably for you also just walking through the whole thing and then when you shared that thing about seeing
1:54:19
Jesus with the dust mask and the goggles that was kind of one of those things
1:54:25
that kind of like oh gee like he would show up I mean on the plyo full gear you
1:54:33
know so we're getting wrecked right along with you in that encounter it was amazing
1:54:39
when uh when I had that that inspiration was like just dropped to take you over
1:54:45
and and lead you over it's like yeah take him over and lead him over and introduce him and it was like that whole
1:54:53
thing was like almost as I think about it now it's almost like a slow-mo play I
1:54:59
Can Read revisit that and it was such it impacted me profoundly as well as you
1:55:06
hit the floor you know you just hit the floor and and coming undone there and
1:55:11
like I was coming it was a powerful powerful moment uh
1:55:18
enveloped with the infused with the power of God in in that moment and who
1:55:26
you can't help but be wrecked basically and that was a powerful moment for me as
1:55:32
as well as for you it was so so I'm so I feel privileged to have that
1:55:39
moment with you mm-hmm yeah and then having you come up here for Christmas yes and um I remember I
1:55:47
don't even know how many times throughout the course of the time you were here you kept grabbing your head and saying too much goodness too much
1:55:55
goodness you couldn't process what you were experiencing
1:56:01
um but you know when you see somebody encountering the the reality of the
1:56:07
bigness and the love of the father and you see them like trying to even process
1:56:12
and like their physical body can't even handle what they're experiencing it does
1:56:17
something to you too you know it's like a it refreshes our own faith to see that
1:56:22
kind of a thing and uh what a a joy watching your journey and um I remember
1:56:29
you bringing up the thing about traveling and you had this in your heart uh to do this traveling and so Katie and
1:56:35
I as moms we're like well why wouldn't you do it like blessing you to go and explore and to live this stream not
1:56:44
knowing it was going to be this five-year journey into every possible spiritual
1:56:52
experience and Katie and I have talked about this I had a lot of oh God oh God moments reading your Facebook post and
1:56:59
Katie said she's just had a lot of faith I did I I had the Assurance I mean it
1:57:04
wasn't like I was happy you were you know I was like oh yeah he's gonna try that it was like no I just had this
1:57:11
assurance that that uh Jesus was with you and that he he wasn't gonna
1:57:19
let you go yeah that he was covering you somehow he was protecting you and I was
1:57:25
like I just have that faith and that Assurance even though it's like I'd squirm a little bit he's doing this okay
1:57:31
no no he's God's got this yeah yeah I remember you you uh telling the story
1:57:38
about I think you might have messaged just about it you were in I think it was Australia and you were in some town that
1:57:45
was known for its new age offerings Iron Bay maybe okay you're walking down the
1:57:50
street and there was a sign on the street prayer or it was something like that yes the prayer room yeah yeah yeah
1:57:56
and when you share that story it's like okay okay God's got it God's got it he's
1:58:01
okay yeah thank you for reminding me about that yeah there was Byron Bay is like it's like Sedona or Bali or Goa or
1:58:09
something like that and then I walked it I remember there was a prayer sign I don't even remember I remember what the denomination was or what it said but I
1:58:15
did go I did did go in there and you guys were with me like I was messaging you regularly you know on on Facebook
1:58:20
the four of you like we were adding chatting regularly yeah good and then
1:58:25
and then all of a sudden we get this message I've traveled the world and experienced all this and come to the realization
1:58:32
that Jesus is the truth it was like yeah yeah he stressed us
1:58:41
oh I mean my faith went through that just watching what you'd been through
1:58:46
and God just guiding you through it all really incredible well you know I
1:58:51
probably haven't told you this part of the story Rob but this is the part that you play into is you know so I met you
1:58:57
guys on the Playa and it was it was that moment with Larry that I was really stuck on was like I was I was projecting
1:59:03
he had some judgments towards me and it was just strictly coming out of me but I was like I'm not going to be able to get
1:59:09
past this and so it was a real maybe a 10 or 15 minute period where it's like okay this is in my heart I'm either gonna say it or not it's either gonna
1:59:15
stop either I'm gonna either I'm gonna give in to it and stop and leave or I'm gonna speak it and so I spoke it right
1:59:21
and that was a profoundly healing go ahead yeah let me just interject because I just reframed that here in this again
1:59:28
and that was a masterful cooperation with
1:59:34
Holy Spirit on your part because you brought something to the light most people go oh I don't want to
1:59:41
bring that I want to bring that up but you were honest you just brought it to the light you weren't vindictive or you know didn't have an edge you just
1:59:47
brought it to the light and that gave Larry um that opening to say oh no this is my
1:59:55
heart let me let me put you at these so two bits of light coming together you
2:00:01
know and if only we all would do that more in our daily lives more more
2:00:08
problems that get resolved like I'll give you a chance to speak now you know I'm struggling with this judgment I'm
2:00:15
not sure if it's right or wrong please speak yeah well that was the thing is I had to get my get my hands around but
2:00:21
there's a picture forming by the way of like how um how I guess providential it is that it's
2:00:28
was the four of you on the call today and then I wish Larry could be here but you know I'll speak I'll send him a message and we're done but like you know
2:00:35
uh but Larry had such an important role to play all four of you did but Larry's role because I'm sitting there for 15
2:00:40
minutes like struggling with us how am I going to express this and I'm having to separate like I'm having this projection
2:00:47
moment I'm not aware that it's a projection like am I actually feeling something and so I'm wrestling with it
2:00:53
like okay I've got to separate myself from it and find the right way to speak it in a way that isn't confrontational
2:00:58
or it's like okay I just need to check this out real quick like getting my hands around it like that to say you
2:01:04
know because I had announced that I wanted to travel and that I wanted to travel the world and what I was experiencing
2:01:11
um uh was that like he was judging me for that like oh who's this kid to do this privileged kid or whatever
2:01:17
something like that and that was that it was my own voice but I couldn't hear that it was my own voice I was projecting it onto him and so that I had
2:01:23
to take that out and be able to get it to the point where it's like okay this thing is happening I need to check out whether it's real or not and what I was
2:01:30
actually scared of was him be like yeah it's real it's like I don't know that was the fear right yeah right yeah right
2:01:37
but to be able to but to be like and I'll never forget the way that he said like no I don't feel that way at all I'm
2:01:44
happy and excited for you I was like really right well you know the people
2:01:49
who are listening to this podcast they know me in a certain way now but I was not always this guy like I remember I
2:01:55
had had this dream in my heart to travel for 15 years by the by the time that I met you guys almost 16 years and I had
2:02:02
to ask you guys for permission I had to ask total strangers for permission to to fulfill my own dreams and you guys I
2:02:09
remember Barbara I think you and Katie you guys looked at me like you don't need to ask us for permission but I still needed to ask right and the I and
2:02:16
that's completely alien to the way that I am now but that's the guy that I was back then because I was carrying this
2:02:22
internalized judgment that I needed to be able to get out into the space between me and Larry and then also Barb
2:02:27
you and me like the stuff that I had around mother and stuff like that to be able to separate that because I remember
2:02:33
you saying so meaningfully like no it's my job as a mom to let my son go like
2:02:38
I'm not supposed to hold him here forever like of course it breaks my heart of course it hurts to send him out
2:02:44
in the world but that's still what I have to do as a mother and that was not my experience of mothering at all and
2:02:50
that you had my mom's name Barbara that you offered that experience that was like what like that's what a mother is
2:02:57
you know and so on the same so you had a piece of it and Larry had a piece of it as well yeah thank you for sharing that well
2:03:05
that's uh that uh that fills it out
2:03:10
we knew some of that but you filled it out now even more and and thank you for
2:03:16
doing that you're welcome thank you I mean it was the space that the three of you created yeah because I was hungry
2:03:23
for it but while you're while you're doing the healing work with me I'm also testing you because I've done so much
2:03:29
healing stuff work do these people know what they're doing you know what I mean like they know what they're doing okay let's let's you know and there was a
2:03:36
point at which the ball just starts rolling downhill you know when the really deep stuff around mother and
2:03:41
father starts coming out you know that really liberated me to be like oh wow you mean like I can leave leave the
2:03:48
mother energy and go be myself and travel the world and and I can depart from this father energy and like no it's
2:03:54
okay and free myself like that was very powerful for me but there's no way that you guys would have known what was going
2:04:00
on behind my eyes yeah yeah yeah yeah and just really just the piece that you
2:04:06
had Rob is that um I've got it excuse me one second
2:04:16
oh yeah yeah yeah yeah because when I got back from my travels
2:04:22
the day I got back December February 2020. the day I got back you had shipped
2:04:29
this to my friend Jeff and I arrived into San Francisco
2:04:34
and he uh to stay with him for a couple nights and pick up my stuff and move to Phoenix the day I got back he put this
2:04:41
book into my hands simply Christian by NT writing which you had sent to me right and so now looking back I
2:04:47
understand that I met Christ on the Playa through you guys with you guys and he sent me on
2:04:54
this adventure to go and do all the things Ayahuasca you know the kumala Hindu
2:05:02
festival vipassana meditation all this different New Age stuff and medicines to go experience it all and to go do all
2:05:09
these things and when I got back Christ was waiting for me yes
2:05:14
because you sent me this Rob as a gift yeah yeah
2:05:19
thank you it was it was God's timing you know and you know another wrinkle to
2:05:25
that is uh you'd had so much experiences even including ours on the planet
2:05:33
um you needed some teaching yeah which is valid Jesus sat and taught so many times in the Bible he didn't just preach
2:05:39
or do Miracles he taught them principles of the Kingdom so so God has that for us
2:05:45
and I think that was your timing like you were ready yeah you're ready to be taught
2:05:53
old Chinese proverb when the student is ready the teacher will come you know
2:06:00
but God sent a book your way he sent a lot of blessings my way
2:06:06
yeah I'm like in tears here just um marveling that we
2:06:13
get to enjoy and see and and Marvel at
2:06:20
this transformation the you know you're not just your transformation all of us but as we're been recounting uh for the
2:06:29
last hour and a half or whatever it just is so wonderful
2:06:35
how God Works things out because he says my ways
2:06:41
are not your ways your ways are not my ways and I and so hearing all of this
2:06:47
and and hearing more and more you filling out your own story
2:06:53
um I just I just can't help but fall more in love with God he's so I love his
2:07:00
intricacies and his his creativity and just how cool he is amen
2:07:07
one other little piece of that real quick okay so the cover of this book simply Christian this
2:07:14
is caprianga which is the northernmost point of New Zealand which is which is a very special place
2:07:21
to me for my travels New Zealand and this place so when I got back having moved here from New Zealand
2:07:28
uh this book put in my hands from you rob as again I get chills that's amazing
2:07:37
yeah wow that's incredible yeah
2:07:44
oh God yeah he's good than previously thought
2:07:50
yeah right yeah oh we make him so small yeah this keeps getting bigger yeah
2:07:56
answering again God do you see me of course I do yeah yeah
2:08:02
well thank you all so much this has been a real blessing of a conversation after after many years of blessings of uh
2:08:09
friendship and fellowship with you guys thank you so much yeah you're welcome to have the conversation with you and yeah
2:08:15
relive the moments yeah don't be a stranger come back up here yeah or maybe
2:08:20
we'll get down there we'll see yeah yeah anytime and I I definitely have some people that I want to come visit up
2:08:26
there in Idaho as well yeah do you uh are there any place that
2:08:31
um that you send people for more information about you and or streams Ministries or any of the things that you
2:08:37
do online and know that you are doing dream interpretation online for a while wow that was more a factor of covid
2:08:44
um most of the work we do is pretty local um yeah Spirit drink Facebook we do have a
2:08:51
Facebook page where we put stuff in I mean it's just really for like our local dream interpretation Ministry that we do
2:08:58
um um yeah Spirit dream North Idaho yeah I
2:09:04
mean if somebody wanted to get in touch with us that would be the way because we do monitor that page so Spirit dream
2:09:09
North Idaho on Facebook we don't mind questions yeah put kindly yeah
2:09:15
Pearl calls everything remember yeah that's right yeah yeah I mean your your
2:09:20
everyday everyday people like there's no you know great magic to it in that way
2:09:25
it's like you're you're people who took on a a pretty brave and pretty bold calling to go uh right into the heart of
2:09:31
some pretty difficult and Dark Places and uh that's you know but that doesn't mean there's any greatness it's just
2:09:37
it's the it's the small things that confound the big things right yeah act
2:09:42
the privilege of getting to be part of what God's doing thank you all so much yeah thank you
2:09:52
we love you in person yeah I love you guys too love you
Transcript
0:00
there were definitely times when I was involved in encounters and then releasing them back out to the
0:06
defilement of the Playa was heart-wrenching because you don't know what they're going to choose but it
0:13
wasn't our job is we just made the deposit that we were able to make and came into God's hands
0:26
hey and thank you for joining me for my very special two-year anniversary episode it's been an amazing year with
0:32
some of my biggest guests ever including Pastor Doug Wilson laser huddle and
0:37
feminine not feminist thank you so much for being a part of it but this episode is really special it's sort of a dream
0:44
come true because my guests this week aren't famous authors pastors or content
0:49
creators they're everyday people but ones who have had an incredible impact on my life their names are Rob Katie
0:56
Barb and Andrea and they're from Camp Spirit dream who introduced me to Christ at Burning Man so please enjoy this very
1:03
special two-year anniversary episode and once again thank you so much for being part of the Renaissance of men Katie Rob
1:11
Barb and Andrea from spiritream thanks so much for joining me on the podcast thanks for having us thanks for having
1:16
us uh you know I you guys have made such a huge difference in my life and I think everyone who listens to
1:23
um listens to the podcast listen to my podcast and has heard me on other podcasts has heard me tell the story of
1:28
how I met you at Burning Man and the impact you've had on my life so I'm really grateful that you're taking the time to talk with me today and to share
1:34
some of the stories um share some of the stories in the background that even I don't know
1:40
we're glad to be here yeah so let's let's start by um by allowing
1:46
you guys to introduce yourself so maybe Katie we'll start with you and we'll just go go across and you can share as
1:51
much about yourself and your story as you as you'd like to and then we'll get to the camp and and and all that
1:58
yes my name is Katie Mazza and I'm married to Rob here and I went to Burning Man for seven years
2:05
starting in 2011 ending in 2017 and at
2:10
was life-changing for me to say the least and a privilege to go
2:15
awesome can you share a little bit about your testimony maybe if you guys would be willing to do that
2:22
yes um you don't have to if yes no that's fine it would be a little long yeah just
2:28
suggesting okay yeah that's true I know I know a couple I will say this though I Rob started going to burning man before
2:36
I did and I had some I wanted to go I was in full support of it but I did not
2:43
have a release to go until 2011 because I needed to face some issues in my own
2:52
life that would have hindered my
2:58
ability to function in the team the way I needed to as well as to give to the
3:05
people that came to see us is in the way that would be beneficial
3:10
yeah see that's that's there's a pretty amazing Insight right there like we have to be spiritually prepared to go out to
3:16
to do ministry like that which is so thank you for that yeah Rob and my name is Rob masla and I
3:26
am married to this lovely woman and I think what I'd I like to say I guess I
3:32
was the original part of the original Seven that went by invitation of an
3:40
intercessory group um from um
3:45
oh the Midwest yeah International House of Prayer Mike bickles grew
3:52
and so their job was just to pray and then they they found out about us and
3:57
basically extended an invitation to a bunch of crazy people that would do dream interpretation or spiritual
4:04
encounters or whatever so seven of us went in and the earlier early years that
4:10
would be starting 2004 and uh yeah those were the uh plowing
4:16
and strange and difficult soil years trying to figure out the culture and having the culture figure out us
4:24
and I'm I'm really happy to say God came through and we're all in one piece
4:30
yeah I'm very happy to I'm very happy to see that too yeah I had some close calls
4:35
but we made it yeah yeah I would like to hear about some of those but yeah yeah Barb go ahead yep my name is Barb Owens
4:43
and I'm actually I was the the newest to the it's my first year was 2012. and um
4:50
Andrea and another friend of ours had extended an invitation for me to be on
4:55
the team by the time I came around there were some real um good protocols in place for who was allowed to go out with
5:02
the team and just kind of a screening process to make sure that the people who went out there would do well and not get
5:08
chewed up and spit out by what was happening out there so Andrea was actually my sponsor and um I had a lot
5:16
of great reasons why it wasn't the right year for me to go and then God got a hold of me and really dealt with the
5:21
real issues which was lack of faith um and I remember one of my favorite things I remember telling Rob like I I
5:28
feel like you know what have I have to offer out there and I remember him saying I find the soccer moms do really
5:33
well out there and I'm like I can do that I can go out there and be a mom and love on the people that God brings into
5:39
our camp so that was kind of what it looked like and I actually went for six years
5:44
um we all actually retired in 2017 it was the same year that we all felt the nudge that it was our last time going
5:51
out there yeah well was that the year that the man ran into the fire did you hear us hear about that it was it wasn't
5:57
saying here it was it was wow but you guys always left on you guys always packed up and we're out by Saturday like
6:03
you didn't stick around for the burn yeah yeah right yeah one of the things they learned in the early years was that
6:09
uh by the time it got to that point we were done yeah our team was done with what we were
6:14
there for yeah and I think it's really important that you said that there were protocols in place that you know there
6:20
were processes and there's a formal structure it wasn't like you were just going out there to hang out and maybe do some Ministry work like it was it was a
6:27
it's a whole thing I don't want to say it was like a business because it wasn't business like in a commercial sense but
6:32
it was a like there was formal processes in place for your for your benefit to
6:37
run the camp and everything was a very serious thing yeah that's true yeah for our protection yeah exactly in spite of
6:45
our jovial appearance there was we were serious as a heart attack yeah yeah and
6:50
I think that came across Andrea yeah my name's Andrea berather and I
6:58
started in 2007 went for about 10 years my story is a little different than
7:03
Katie's I um had never done anything like that before ever in my life and I
7:09
grew up in church so I was in like church world and Mommy world when I got
7:14
invited to go and God made it clear that I was supposed to go but it felt like being
7:20
thrown in the deep end of the pool and I really wasn't prepared very well but I had to learn to swim really fast
7:26
and I went out you know very green and very scared and again I like Katie said
7:33
it was the most life-changing experience ministering out there yeah learned a lot yeah hands down
7:39
let's let's talk quickly about how the camp came together with the with the the Genesis of it was so to speak and then
7:46
I'm actually really curious about the sort of things like the chewing up and the spitting out and the processes and the learning like like because from my
7:52
perspective like I just go out to burning man you know in a Secular Progressive new age kind of world where it's like oh Burning Man is a great time
7:59
but that was the last time I was there but I would imagine going in with a completely different worldview there's a
8:04
completely different means of preparation that would be I would have to think about that now actually but I'm
8:10
interested to hear your side what it's like going um into quite dangerous territory so
8:15
let's talk about the origins of the camp and then we'll get into what it was actually like for you guys going there personally and collectively
8:21
yeah so um 2004 as I said uh John Paul Jackson
8:28
kind of our our mentor of sorts had this idea that he should send a team in there
8:35
from streams Ministries I'm part of and we were all a part of streams Ministries so we had this wild idea that he should
8:43
throw a bunch of us into burning man and we all looked at one another and said
8:49
but there's crazy naked people you know what are we gonna do you know confirm
8:54
but anyways we acquiesce because there was no way of saying no to John Paul he's he was a nice guy but when when he
9:03
saw something on the horizon you would go for it and we would just emulate that so we ended up going and we you know we
9:11
had we had a background in um what we call prophetic evangelism it was a
9:17
pioneering idea where we would go on the streets and look at people and just ask
9:23
God for an impression a download on who they are where they were going or
9:29
something and we would just basically say something like when I look at you I
9:34
see and that's how we made conversations on the streets and then we started going to New Age fairs and
9:42
um a few other events but Burning Man was a total immersion it wasn't like you
9:48
can go home or go in into a hotel room and decompress you have to live
9:54
and interact for a whole week so that was a game changer and Christianity was
10:01
definitely in the low low low minority numbers there yeah
10:06
um if at all in some in some cases so so there we were and the first year was
10:12
difficult because people were they were it seemed like
10:17
um they were testing us like some people wouldn't come out of character some
10:23
people would you know we'd say do you have a dream we could interpret and then they'd tell us a pornographic dream and
10:29
it was just this trying to figure out this sort of
10:35
testing thing and I remember complaining to the Lord about it and he goes actually I was
10:40
testing you the first two years to see if you would if
10:46
um you would understand the culture and work with me to find the keys of loving
10:55
them and working with them so that was an eye-opener for me like it wasn't just
11:02
blaming a bunch of crazy people stressing us out it's far different was
11:07
God's plan to get us in the mode of really listening and hearing with our
11:13
heart both them and the god that we had to lean on every stinking moment we were
11:20
there so that that was the big takeaway and um
11:26
but you know there were bright spots that even though we were the first two years were kind of like what was that
11:33
we would have these encounters and here's one I'll I'll just share one there was yeah a woman I was working
11:40
with and I I think I gave her an encouraging word something to do with her makeup how God understood her makeup
11:48
and her composition as a being yeah yeah yeah
11:54
and burning man you never know the difference people are made up there yeah exactly but we're not making this up
12:01
anyway so so we're going so uh
12:06
she kind of looks at me like well that's all well good but then she just goes for the you know she just goes for the the
12:14
artery and she just bakes these looks at me and she says how come you Christians just think you can speak at scripture
12:21
and it's supposed to change us and I'm going oh my God here we are ground zero
12:27
and and you know what what they really wanted was an encounter with Jesus
12:32
living in us look in our eyes and see Jesus kind of thing and we didn't fully
12:39
realize that to to the degree we do now but what I ended up saying to her is I
12:45
need to apologize to you I said to her I said I need to apologize
12:52
um for on behalf of the church for judging you in what we deem is your strange
12:59
appearance or strange behavior and we've missed your hunger
13:04
God never misses your hunger and I kind of lived off that little
13:12
experience for quite a while as a a ground zero feeling in those early years
13:19
is not to miss the hunger of the culture spite of their weird acting out or
13:25
whatever weird channels they might get in for spirituality it didn't matter
13:30
God was concerned about this hunger that he put in the human heart [Music]
13:36
that they were seeking to fill at that Festival but with um not the right food let's say yeah
13:42
exactly just like you yeah right absolutely it was one of the things that impressed me really early on in one of
13:50
my early years was how someone could come in and um they'd obviously been
13:55
pursuing in dark streams and yet there was this almost like clean feeling on
14:00
them and it was what I came to recognize was a genuine hunger for truth and they
14:05
were looking in places where they weren't finding it um but the the purity of the pursuit was
14:11
there and it was obvious when we'd meet people like that it didn't matter what they looked like on the outside we could
14:18
tell that there was something really genuine and true there now did you announce early on that you
14:23
were Christians or advertised at all or it just kind of came out naturally in conversation
14:29
no we we you know you know if you look back in
14:35
the Bible um it's it's kind of like Jesus wouldn't admit he wouldn't fess up that he was
14:42
the son of God you know he wouldn't fess up to all the attributes that he carried
14:47
you know it's it's just you know certain instances he would reveal something and
14:53
then you know that that famous line he said that Peter answered because who do you say I am he says to his own
14:59
disciples so a lot of ways we let them figure out by the presence we carried the peace
15:08
that was in the tent the light and they would verbalize these things they would
15:13
come and come to the entrance of our tent and say there's so much light here
15:18
but there's so much Spirit here or so much peace here how do you do that
15:25
and talk about you know a conversation opener for us to work with them and as rich
15:32
sort of a taste and see approach because we we understand that people in the
15:39
culture come pre-loaded with a whole lot of ideas and judgments about Christians and who they are yeah so you don't you
15:47
don't you don't want to come straight out with that and and hit that wall with people so we're a taste and see you know
15:54
we let them taste of what we had and let the Holy Spirit decide when it was time to reveal who we really were
16:02
yeah yeah I think the Apostle Paul said it well in Acts
16:08
26 17. he was talking to Agrippa a pagan
16:13
King and he's he's given a defense sort of sort of to save his life maybe a defense
16:19
of who he was what he was doing and basically he said uh let me tell you my story
16:25
and it so he tells him the story how a a great light came it was knocked to the
16:31
ground and then a voice came and it was Jesus and Jesus says why are you
16:37
persecuting me but but then Jesus gives him a commission and he says I'm sending you to the Gentiles and I think this is
16:45
what we've embraced to do this to open their eyes
16:50
and then to turn them from Darkness delay
16:56
right open there so it's as Andrew is saying we're doing eye-opening things
17:03
and it's different according you know each person is a little different right
17:08
yeah yeah I don't think a message of sin and repentance would go over so well at
17:14
Burning Man right but I mean but but the message of love because I remember being in the camp and I you may have heard me
17:20
say this or I may have said it to you guys I've definitely said it when speaking about the experiences you know I'm in this I'm in this I don't know
17:26
what the healing encounter with you guys for what three and a half hours something like that and while that's going on Barb and Katie you were there
17:32
I'm looking around the tent you know like trying to figure out who are these people because I didn't see any Buddhas
17:38
or vishnus or psychedelic art or anything like that which is pretty as you know pretty usual for burning man
17:44
you walk into someone's camp and you you get a sense like are they you know DMT you know drug trippies or are they you
17:51
know you know some sort of like new Eastern mysticism whatever and I didn't see any of that and that was really odd
17:56
for me because I couldn't quite triangulate who you guys were right and it was only that it was only the reveal
18:02
at the end wait what what are you doing here yeah and so that was a consciously
18:08
chosen I mean it would have to be right yeah yeah well it was a really beautiful thing too to see people experience who
18:14
Jesus really is yeah they have their misconceptions but to let them experience it firsthand uh it rocked
18:22
them and it would I know rock me and the encounters to watch them having this encounter for the first time with the
18:28
true Jesus with the true God who created them yeah and then of course I came up to
18:34
visit you guys for Christmas um a few months later thank you for hosting me by the way and um that visit
18:42
was probably as powerful as meeting you on the Playa because I got to see that
18:47
it wasn't just you just wear this out on the Playa for for work let's say it's like no you you live in this way that
18:53
I'd never encountered other Christians living especially in your interactions with each other and seeing your lives in
18:59
the way you treated me even off even off the Playa um we try
19:06
as it should be yeah yes as it should be yeah I agree I agree so so
19:12
um how did the camp then from its early days start to grow and and when did you
19:17
get a sense like okay maybe we should be doing this for more than a couple years maybe we should start pulling together
19:23
people from across the country and make it into like a thing and what did it look like in those early early days like
19:29
if there was just seven of you you probably didn't have a big a big tent all set up or maybe you did I don't know
19:34
what it what did it actually look like and then how did it Grow from there we had those we had those chintzy pop-up
19:41
things you could buy for I don't know maybe a hundred dollars a pop and the
19:46
wind promptly bloomed shreds the first year but this figure this is where we
19:52
learned about Burning Man Community we were we were out we're we're a day camp so that meant we would Minister uh
20:01
just to the point of exhaustion during the day but at night we would go out and
20:06
look at the sights and the art and whatnot but the wind picked up ferocious winds and dust out there and we came
20:14
back and all our neighbors were holding our tent poles down and helping us and
20:21
you know the community is valued in prized there so you know we're taking notes all the time like these people are
20:28
serious about um their neighbors you know feeding one another or taking care of something so
20:36
so from there I think there wasn't a time that we said we're not coming back from
20:43
the first time even though it may have been some difficult testing there was enough to say there's there's promise
20:51
here there are people there are people worth coming back for so there was never a time we thought we were going to quit
20:58
um the next year I think it at least doubled more than doubled and then by
21:03
the third year it was up to maybe 27 members wow the first year it was
21:09
actually 50. 2007. seven so four five six fourth year
21:15
yeah it really went crazy but it was kind of like um we we have to play with how we would
21:24
bring in new people and we were a little fast and loose at time but then we
21:30
developed a protocol that you have to sponsor someone yeah someone would vouch
21:35
for the person they're bringing in and have some accountability yeah because it's yeah yeah you had to
21:43
have the measure of character um and the Heart the right heart and
21:51
um well yeah and that actually there wasn't there was
21:58
a little formal thing about taking the art of hearing God class from streams Ministry because that covered
22:05
character being more important than gifting and and character would also include we
22:13
would include it now maybe a little broader um a little broader umbrella of do they
22:20
love well do they understand honor that they understand protocol
22:25
so all those things were became very important to us so so this art of hearing God class is a
22:32
21-hour class that just hits all the raw spots about about our Humanity sometimes
22:40
go ahead and um going back to the beginning when Rob went that first year the first couple of
22:46
years as he had said the IHOP people had invited the team to
22:53
join them and at that time that team just handed out water bottles and back
22:59
then it was bottles of water to pastors by and and would you know mostly do that
23:05
and then these guys show up and the scene begins to change the whole thing begins to
23:11
change and and those people then handed it over to the spirit dream team and they no
23:20
longer participated in in a physical way and so from that it went to not just
23:28
handing out water but getting the encounter tent and then there was the
23:34
process of adding the coffee Dome and their story line in that as well but it
23:40
kind of evolved one you know piece by piece I totally forgot about the coffee Dome
23:49
it's like if if there are touch points the first point are the people that give out water and just talk to people and
23:56
then we have a coffee Dome where if you went in there there'd be a chill space there'd be people to you know there's
24:03
space to talk a little deeper or a quiet a quiet space yeah and enjoy your coffee
24:08
some people would spend all day in our coffee now and then kind of the deep end
24:13
would be the encounter can a 90-foot military tent where we would seat we would have maybe
24:21
10 groups of two or three of our team that would encounter people like such as
24:26
yourself as they came in let me do the screen share real quick and because you sent me some photos of
24:32
the encounter tent and I can pull that up right now and we can take a look for the people
24:38
for the people watching on YouTube they can actually see the encounter tent can
24:43
you guys see that yeah yeah that's that's the tent and you can I mean and like I was saying earlier you can kind
24:49
of look around and you know there's nothing you know what is that like a Galaxy or an eyeball painting or
24:55
something like that but there's nothing in there that's like there's nothing in there that's psychedelic or anything like that it was very
25:01
um it was very uh very plain I guess you would say by contrast but like it
25:07
doesn't that doesn't mean it was ordinary in any way and so I just I think I'm not sure which end of the tent
25:12
I was at but I remember being at one end of the tent Yeah by about that time our our Decor
25:18
was becoming early Ezekiel okay so there's there's probably a bunch
25:24
of things that you're gonna have to unpack for a lot of people listening including me so let's maybe let's unpack John Paul Jackson's dreams Ministries
25:29
and art of hearing God and then early let's not unpack these things just because there's this context that I
25:35
think a lot of listeners even if they're Christians won't really have a lot of context for like who is John Paul Jackson's what is Jackson what is
25:42
streams Ministry what did he think about what you were doing in the whole thing so let's maybe back up for a second and talk about that
25:50
where to begin right yeah where to begin well John Paul is now passed away but um
25:58
streams Ministry lives on with a a new man in charge uh John Thomas but
26:06
um so John John Paul was a teacher and what we would call a revelatory minister you
26:13
know he operated in the gift of the prophetic and in in my opinion he was
26:18
um uh one of the more principled and a man who who walked in character which is why
26:26
personally my eye was attracted to him there was nothing flighty about it and he could unpack
26:33
um the meanings of what it is to live a prophetic lifestyle or just that everybody has gifts you just gotta
26:41
realize everyone has gifts they're given from God and but they need to be developed and they need to be developed
26:47
alongside character that was his biggest message and he would you know he would say that over
26:53
and over again so it's it's still alive today where I
26:58
still teaches teach those courses there are streams teachers that teach the courses understanding dreams and Visions
27:05
is another um very popular and needed course because all of humanity gets Dreams yeah
27:12
and there are few people that could interpret it with a hebraic or a
27:17
Biblical background and so we teach that yeah there's possible to do that it's it's a long
27:25
learning curve but it's worth pursuing yeah that was one of the things that um
27:31
that I think initially attracted me to going through your uh tent is because I had done dream
27:38
interpretation on my own after just a little bit of training in Jung Yan style dream interpretation like 15 years
27:44
earlier so when I came out with the Playa and the guy that I met said oh I just came from Spirit dream they do dream interpretation and healing I'm
27:50
like I probably was dream interpretation that hooked me that was like that was something I could kind of understand like oh that sounds cool I'll go check
27:56
that out yeah yeah please
28:04
well that was kind of your domain up front well yeah okay I don't want to do
28:09
all the talking but but we did we had a sandwich board it was kind of like you
28:15
know I had this idea like well we're like a um spiritual Cafe so we need a
28:21
menu board so they can see what they want and and it was just a kind of a cheap way to hook people
28:27
but but it works you know we had dream interpretation we had um encouraging encouraging words we had
28:35
healing I you know help me Healing Touch Healing Touch Destiny Direction okay Destiny
28:41
Direction and then we had spiritual encounter which became such a popular
28:47
one we started calling it free fall uh we thought of metaphors for everything
28:53
but essentially they're real spiritual experiences that we could back up in the
28:58
Bible but we didn't want to use religious language yes so and we know the culture is hardwired
29:06
for healing inner healing physical healing all kinds of stuff so
29:12
you know the combination of we well let me back up we know that the human Spirit
29:18
we all have a human spirit and it's hardwired to look for God in some measure you know
29:26
pre-salvation it's it's kind of dim but it's still looking because he put eternity in the heart of man
29:33
eternity is not a Earthly component that has to come from God so we know that people have their radar up and and so
29:41
they're comparing our methodologies of healing or
29:46
encouragement to theirs and the kind of ambiance the light
29:51
around us the feel the atmosphere the peace and that that's what worked you know
29:58
they might have re they might read the menu board but then they're in the door and they're gone oh wow
30:05
how do you guys do that I have this question like right off the bat they'd walk through the threshold and they go
30:11
how do you guys do this you know yeah and I go well let's sit down
30:19
yeah I've struggled to because I I would tell people you know the whole story in various levels of detail where I showed
30:25
up at the at the tent that my the guy had directed me to at my camp and
30:31
struggling to remember what was actually written on the menu board because I I want to say things that because I don't
30:37
remember exactly what was written there but I I want to say things that were
30:42
they were interesting to me but the language wasn't of any sort of like identifiable New Age Eastern mysticism
30:49
kind of thing right there was something about it's like I recognize the intention Behind these things even if I
30:56
don't know what any of the practices are besides you know like free fall like if I walked up with a free fall that sounds
31:01
cool or dream interpretation I know but anything else like that's that's I think the skill that you guys had developed is
31:09
how to speak in a language that the culture understands but that isn't the culture's language
31:15
and that's that's very difficult to do we're writing that one down yeah
31:21
I like that yeah and and the truth was so the way the the encounter tent was set up the reason I said that was Rob's
31:27
domain is because we had a waiting area at one end of the tent so because we had
31:32
a line every day of people wanting encounters and we could only do so many before we take a break for lunch and
31:38
then we'd have a window of time after lunch before dinner where we could only do so many so Rob and our other leader
31:45
Darren were in the waiting area greeting people when they came in and they had the menu board there so they would sit
31:51
with them and they'd say you know what looks appealing and the whole time they were kind of pinging in the spirit which
31:58
of the 10 encounter teams will this person fit with where is God directing
32:03
me to seat them so like for your encounter well I remember you saying you were sitting there waiting and kind of
32:09
talking to them and you were looking at the teams which one you thought you might see sit with and you told us you
32:15
saw our team as Katie and I and then a man named Larry and you thought oh I don't want to be seated with that team
32:20
is the exact team you got seated with I know yeah yeah so uh that was kind of so
32:26
they would kind of being worried the person belong and then bring the person the burner back and introduce them to
32:31
the team members and it's always kind of funny to me because we had our menu board and they would always say this is
32:37
so and so they'd make the introductions and they're here for Destiny Direction which we would you know take note of but
32:44
the fact is is that uh Holy Spirit guided every encounter we didn't really know where any of them were going to go
32:50
I mean we flew by the seat of our pants with every encounter because we didn't know what really the person was bringing
32:56
what they really needed but God knew every time and we learned to just flow with whatever was happening in the
33:03
spirit well we had to be open to the creativity of God because there were things that he
33:10
would download do this and we're like do what he would take us all on an
33:15
adventure yeah and we'd have to figure it out later what just happened oh yeah because he's very creative in how he reached people yeah yeah I had one
33:23
encounter my my newbie year where Andrea was the team lead and I was on a team and I won't do all the details of the
33:29
encounter but this she was doing this encounter with this woman and I'm watching and I was
33:35
super impressed because I'm a newbie and I'm just taking it all in right and Andrea just navigates this whole thing
33:40
with this gal and the gal gets this you know incredible experience and when she leaves at the end Andrea looks at me and
33:47
the other guy on the team she said well that was different and that's why that was the weirdest encounter okay and I
33:52
said you've never done that before no but she just flowed with it so beautifully I'm like wow you know take
33:58
notes Barb Andre knows how to do this and I need to know how to do it too but yeah yeah it was amazing something that
34:05
you said um the way you said that about the language thing it prompted a memory of
34:11
an encounter that I had maybe second or third year that I went and I was in
34:18
although at the latter years that I went I hung out mostly in the dome but with
34:25
you that time I was in the encounter tip thankfully but um
34:30
so I was in the encounter tent and two two different days uh two different
34:37
teams I would with two different teams and two women were brought you know one woman one day and or that morning and
34:45
one in the afternoon and it was so interesting because each of those gals
34:52
had had abortions and I had had that experience out of the
34:58
whole team the leaders you know prompted by the Holy Spirit brought those gals to the
35:06
team that I was on and and holy spirit gave me language
35:11
to be able to talk to them about principles
35:16
because they were born in an age and an era where this was natural and why did
35:23
if it was so not natural and accepted and the way to do life
35:29
then why did they feel so crappy afterwards after having an abortion what
35:34
why did things shift and their lives kind of fall apart well
35:40
as I said you know Holy Spirit gave me language that they could understand and
35:46
relate to using principles about the Creator and even though man's ways are
35:53
this creators ways are not and and creators ways and principles overrule
36:03
man's ways and so the things that we feel sometimes when we violate the
36:09
principles of the Creator impact us greatly and they they could really
36:15
uh register with that and it opened the doors for them to get some relief and
36:23
some cleansing and some healing I think that's one of the things that that uh you guys did so masterfully is
36:31
you provided that you provided real healing and relief and release and you
36:36
know I have that I have that painting Andrea that you made of Rob hugging that girl it's around here somewhere I don't
36:41
have a digital version but um maybe it'll maybe it'll pop up on my desk somewhere but you know that that you
36:47
came out and you actually offered that and you as you had said earlier Rob about Barb coming like soccer moms do
36:52
really well out there like that was Barb that was exactly what I needed you know even down to the point that like I
36:57
didn't have the soccer mom experience with my mom as we've talked about but you know my mom's name was also Barbara
37:02
and so that was no coincidences there of being able to receive and that was a
37:08
powerful aspect for me it was being able to see an image of the mother that I didn't have right and and be like wait
37:15
this is a thing right and and to the point where you I could see in my own
37:20
life God's hand at work putting me right where I needed to be in the same way these girls with you Katie
37:26
you know had what they needed to to be able to talk with you from a position where you could relate to their
37:31
experience and communicate truth in a way no one else really could yeah it's a
37:36
beautiful thing yeah so um so as people would how did this
37:42
process this protocol kind of develop like with Sandwich Board and you know obviously you would have had to learn on
37:49
the go about how this is all going to work getting a sense of like well we should just trust ourselves trust the
37:54
spirit to guide us in the right way flying by the seat of your pants and these healing encounters and not going
38:00
by any set playback set Playbook that all that all developed over the years I'm guessing yeah yeah it did I mean
38:08
Andrea brought up the word creativity how creative God is and I I think we're
38:14
more dialed into Heaven is an extremely creative Innovative place and there's things we
38:21
haven't even near tapped into and but we were being in an extreme environment and
38:28
basically our go-to prayer was help God we we get ideas I mean we would just get
38:36
ideas and try them and and also it was a community United in this Quest I can't
38:43
say enough about that that while we had leadership and sub leaders
38:49
I mean it was an open dialogue of ideas so anybody could have
38:55
an idea and we'd go yeah that sounds like it has weight on it let's try it you know so I don't know maybe I came up
39:02
with a menu but I think I did I think I had this sandwich board idea but you know there's so many details to doing
39:11
um this kind of Outreach and everything became an art form the serving of food
39:17
and inviting of guests and who to invite and um the kind of music we chose Katie
39:24
would come up with a playlist every year of um basically kind of secular songs there
39:31
were that were edging into values that we we appreciated you know what I mean
39:36
and then we could we can work with that you know so when you open yourself up to
39:42
the creativity of God and doing things differently one idea leads all of a sudden you have two ideas and then those
39:48
two ideas you have four ideas and you have those four ideas and you have eight ideas and it just mushrooms and there's
39:55
it's just Limitless the creativity and the ideas that can come and then when
40:01
you open that sphere up for God to do whatever he wants to do on that platform of creativity it's it's
40:08
blind mind-blowing yeah there were there were times when we would have the nudge
40:13
to do something in an encounter that we didn't have the theology for but we knew it was the spirit telling us but every
40:20
time we'd go back to scripture because that was always our Plumb line and we'd find the principle uh because it's it
40:27
was not about going outside of the the lines to the point where you're violating principle God's principles
40:32
ever um but there were definitely Times by the spirit when um we knew what we were
40:38
to to do and then we would have conversations later hey this happened somebody helped me unpack this and that
40:44
was part of the value of team is having the spiritual insight to be able to bounce off of each other and make sure
40:51
that we were staying in lined up with God's principles and I think that's really important and
40:56
I'm grateful to hear you say that because I know from uh I know from the
41:01
encounter meeting you guys and getting to spend a lot of time with you guys in
41:06
in Idaho and getting to know you personally but I've never really asked too many questions about the protocols
41:12
and practices and and the discipline that's involved to do something like that and still hold to your principles
41:18
still hold to your your your personal Integrity not any of you would ever lose that but you're being pulled in all
41:24
these different energetic directions if nothing else and if only by the overall feeling of the event I mean I and I've
41:31
been unable to speak to the amount of discipline that must have gone on behind the scenes to support you collectively
41:37
and individually in the conduct of that and maybe you can speak into some of those things because you know it's like
41:43
deep sea diving like you don't just go swimming down there like you have to build if it's suits and you know
41:48
underwater whatever maybe you can speak to that a little bit yeah um well let's talk about
41:55
um one thing that became a bit Central to what we did was a father or a mother blessing
42:02
um and it's something I I was doing quite a bit before I would stand in place for
42:10
the absent father or the abusive father and sometimes apologize and or sometimes
42:17
you know just say um I'm you know I'm not actually your father but I believe I
42:23
understand father God enough to impart something to you so you have to be very
42:30
intimate with people well you know you have to hold them close and you have to deal in your mind
42:36
that that this physical intimacy is just a buy the buy I'm I'm looking to reach
42:42
their soul their broken soul and their Spirit that's just aching
42:47
to be validated by a simple I love you yeah I bless you
42:54
and to do that you have to be absolutely clear in your mind like
42:59
um no this is I'm not going into any even though that that physical proximity
43:04
Is there I'm not going to go into any fantasy you know yeah about this there
43:09
is one significant time I'll just tell a brief story it was near the end of the
43:15
week we would have what we call popcorn encounters that were very quick because we had such an overflow of people that
43:22
we couldn't get to during the week yeah so we'd have people hanging out on Friday going when is it my turn so we
43:28
herded them into the tent and we told our team you know pair up do 10 minutes
43:33
worth so so I'm kind of standing there watching kind of directing a little bit
43:39
but mostly just watching and the coming a couple of my teammates me it was you
43:45
that's right that's me yeah we I'll I'll give the background and then you take your side of it so I was teamed up with
43:51
one of our Swedish teammates Malin and this young man came to us and he said that um
43:58
he was he was struggling with whether or not he was homosexual but he said every time he had a homosexual encounter it
44:04
felt wrong but yet he was so drawn to men and right away we knew what he was looking for was a father it was he was
44:11
thinking he was homosexual but what he was wanting was a touch of a father so we said hey Rob and brought him over and
44:18
told Rob and then Rob took it from there and yeah so and so taking it from there
44:25
but I just throw a a just a little tidbit here you know Jesus came to reveal the father
44:32
because you know I mean he even placed himself under that to reveal the father
44:37
and so we take this really seriously that there must be a crying need in humanity
44:44
for her father and we we know that to be absolutely true now yeah so there I am
44:49
standing with a short man that's very sincere very broken and and you know basically are you ready for this I'm I
44:57
just give him a little Spiel I'm just gonna hold you like a dad and and speak this blessing and I and I bless them
45:03
from conception and because God's original design was not that they go
45:09
astray but they know his Spirit from the beginning you know so I I just take him
45:15
through kind of stages in life and bless them and and confirm love upon them and
45:21
and um bless their design and their Destiny bless theirs their bodies bless
45:28
their souls bless their Spirits the way God intended so somewhere in the middle of it I mean
45:35
this is where God really turned the tables on me I I do this almost with you know just by the by in a sense not that
45:42
I'm not involved but I I know how to control yeah it gets very emotional yeah
45:48
two of us sometimes but this one I totally God took me in this different
45:54
place of almost like as Ezekiel said I sat where they sat I understood his pain
46:01
to to such a degree I wept his tears well as weird as that sounds I might
46:07
miss cheers yeah while I'm holding them and then we and and I and I actually
46:13
have this strange thought while I'm there many streets that I'm like God this is crazy uh it gets crazier all the
46:20
time but you know we're just both Sinners yeah
46:26
being smiled upon by a god of great grace and great love
46:31
I have somehow merged with this massive Humanity that's broken
46:36
and uh still chokes me up with you today yeah yeah so you know and and then the Lord
46:44
just took me on a little prophetic Journey where he's telescoping out from here he goes this is the effects of this
46:50
kind of thing that people that Embrace this we will meet
46:55
the culture um just the way they are the way Jesus did
47:01
and I could see it telescoping out for Generations this is this is God's
47:06
way that's just some profound experience that painting's actually hanging on the
47:12
wall should I grab it yeah please yeah please yeah because I've got the I found I
47:19
don't have it on my desk anymore I actually put it up my wall behind me but it's your version will be much better than the than the card that that that uh
47:27
little printout that you gave me that went around the world with me by the way [Music]
47:33
oh it's so lovely so lovely yeah and that was this that was the spirit of
47:39
everything that you did right and that came across and what's and and you know Andrea
47:45
what's so beautiful about that painting that you capture is like is how um impersonal isn't the word but like it's
47:51
personal but it's it's trans person it's larger than personal what's going on there you know it's it's like it's she
47:58
is being embraced by something so much larger than Rob through Rob right and Rob as well and you really captured that
48:05
I don't know yeah yeah yeah and that that was uh that was a young lady from
48:11
um well I don't know she just came in the tent and her story was her dad passed away
48:18
when she's two years old and she had this vague memory of her dad and she just
48:27
it was an ache in her heart yeah it was feeling an ache in her heart and it really impacted her
48:34
um really impacted her to the point where we Center um
48:40
a copy of that print yeah and she showed it to her family and her family's been
48:46
praying for it you know this is whole family and they were like astounded at how God met her in a different sort of
48:54
way you know so I think I'll just add something else uh
49:03
germane to our encounters um Burning Man changed us
49:10
as much as it changed every single person that came in there oh yeah
49:17
absolutely oh yeah yeah we did not know uh God could be that big yeah or that
49:25
good yeah yeah or that creative or that anything named the blank that that fits
49:31
in with the characteristics of God we did not know yeah until we went over the edge and and said yes to this crazy
49:39
event yeah yeah and so to me God reveals himself uh you know Greater Grace the greater
49:46
level of areas of sin there's great grace available and but I think there's few of us I'll just address the
49:53
Christians and the audiences few of us that have this yes of I'll go there just my only parachute is God
50:01
you know yeah I remember you guys being I remember being told my first year that we didn't the team we
50:09
didn't go out there with an agenda and I remember thinking you guys were full of it I'm like of course we do we're going out there to you know save people you
50:15
know well it took me I don't know a year or two when I finally really understood
50:21
Jesus died for all Humanity most of whom won't acknowledge what he did for them
50:27
what we were called to do when going out there was to just love on people in his
50:32
name with No Agenda with no needed outcome from it other than to offer the
50:38
gift of the love of God in whatever form that took and then it was God's job then
50:43
to take the deposit we'd made and do with it whatever was going to happen it really released off of me any need for
50:51
it's not about that it's not about having to get to you know the point of Salvation or anything like that I am I
50:57
was out there really just giving out of the gifts that he'd given me personally
51:02
and allowing God's love to just flow to these people and to bring healing and
51:08
the touch of the whatever it looked like and it was it is in Paradigm shifting experience to to lay
51:16
down all agenda and to step into that River of the love of God and just allow yourself to be swept with it and to do
51:23
whatever comes out of that place that was I think for me the thing that changed me the most
51:30
um we had you asked about what protocols we had I had to do my process was like
51:35
battening down the hatches there were a lot of things that I was allowed to do so to speak or that I did books I read
51:42
things I watched whatever until I became part of the Burning Man team when you
51:47
know God would say we're not gonna you can't do those things because you didn't even realize the doors it was leaving
51:52
open so my process of battening down the hatches and submitting to discipline in
51:58
some of these areas but the the reward of being part of that and getting to
52:04
experience the love of God like that was just I mean there's nothing like it you're just never the same again after
52:09
you really just Dive In with everything into that that flow of God's love
52:16
I just want to validate what you said about um submitting and really trusting because um
52:22
you know I came out there and we had such a meaningful experience then I came to visit you guys and you know celebrate
52:28
Christmas with you and ate bear and drank wine and you know listen to music and and then
52:35
um but you guys even though we became close friends and kept in touch while I was traveling he had to wait five years
52:40
for me to come around literally five years like Labor Day Labor Day weekend 2015 is when we met and then I flipped
52:47
to quarterly and get baptized on I didn't fly up there for that I came to visit but you know but five years later
52:53
and there was never a point during that time where I felt ever felt any pressure
52:58
or any need or any pull or anything like that you just you just loved me for five years while I've traveled around the
53:05
world doing the craziest things and then I found out later behind the scenes you guys were praying for me like oh yeah
53:11
what is he doing oh no but that's a real that's a real Testament you know to to everything that
53:17
you're saying that just to be so open-handed about it when that can be so difficult like my church does Ministry
53:24
at abortion abortion clinics here in Phoenix has a nationwide and almost
53:30
International now Ministry for that and then also with Mormon temples and they're they're very open about like no
53:35
you're not actually the one that does anything you know the Holy Spirit you allow the Holy Spirit to work through you and don't personalize it and so I I
53:42
relate very much to that but then to see that to be able to to be able to vouch for it a thousand percent that I never
53:48
felt anything other than just you know pure love from you guys and how powerful and how challenging that must have been
53:54
for you to want so much for the people that you give to including me but not just me but then having to be like put
54:01
it in God's hands yeah yeah love is patient right yeah yeah I read that yeah
54:06
yeah that's pretty good yeah there were definitely times when I was involved in encounters and then releasing them back
54:14
out to the defilement of the Playa was heart-wrenching because you don't know what they're
54:20
going to choose but it wasn't our job is we just made the deposit that we were able to make and
54:26
come into God's hands yeah God is God Is Bigger Than previously thought oh yeah well you said a really
54:33
important word there you said defilement to the Playa and that's that is strong
54:39
proper Christian language for what's for what's going on right because I think when I tell people like I you know I'm
54:45
at Christ that Bernie Manor introduced himself to me or however the phrase I use it it's that um the people who know
54:50
about burning man even the even the gauziest friendliest videos on on YouTube you know show Hedonism and maybe
54:58
not full-on debauchery but you know it's it's definitely we'll call it a very open culture right but viewed through of
55:04
course through the secular lens it's this Shangri-La kind of experience which we'll get back to but viewed through a
55:10
Christian lens you know has as much pain as there is that's very real about being there there is a lot of sin and it's
55:18
hard to it's it's it's impossible to avoid that and so when you say batten down the hatches like yeah it's all
55:24
around you everywhere and as much as people really are concerned about their neighbors your neighbors might have the
55:30
orgy camp or whatever right they'll hold down your tents and a wind but
55:37
they might be naked while they're doing it oh hello there
55:42
you know what's really funny about that is the power and goodness of God because
55:48
we would never address their nakedness as they entered into the encounter tent to sit with us we just said well that's
55:56
God's domain we're not we're not here to judge their dress or lack of it but so
56:01
we get a lot of practice making eye contact yes really good at it but you know they
56:07
would sit down and this happened so many times suddenly they'd be looking for a
56:13
covering for their nakedness and we wouldn't we hadn't said a word
56:18
you know they'd be looking for a scarf or a shirt or something and and you know it just kind of amuses how God would
56:25
work in that area conviction's still alive no matter how much yeah they try to wallow conviction
56:32
and still be alive so um I want to give a shout out to uh uh
56:38
Darren Zinn who the present leader but also uh Lisa machek who co-led with me
56:44
for several years and Reese Saunders and Scott eblin who were the early guys from
56:50
students that did it I mean they they laid some serious tracks for for us to grow
56:57
um the other thing I wanted to say you talked about protocols there was actually a real
57:03
um uh nuts and bolts protocol thing that we learned from the Native American people
57:10
uh when we first came to Reno a small Church
57:15
hosted us and as part of that church there were a Native American couple and
57:21
their their son-in-law and their their daughter and they they came up to us and said do
57:27
you want to do protocol tonight so they did this very formal uh Native
57:33
American protocol where they danced we did a friendship dance they they spoke blessing over us they gave us gifts they
57:40
welcomed us into the land and we thought that was spiritual these
57:45
Native American Believers that Bluer blew our minds a bit and then they waited and so we went to dinner with
57:52
them and and they kind of waited for the US to feed back and so basically we were
57:58
saying different forms of what was that and so the answer came back from Dan
58:04
Mosley it was leading the group and he said basically we did it backwards when
58:10
you enter a stranger's land or a tribe land you are supposed to introduce
58:15
yourself and ask permission to enter the land those these are the old ways
58:23
and uh and then bring a gift we would have a gift exchange
58:28
and so after that for about four years they brought us around to about four
58:33
different tribes and we would meet um the chief or the tribal chairman and
58:40
maybe some members of of uh the governing body or whatever and we
58:47
would buy you know buy a Pendleton blanket we do a very formal presentation and we would ask them for permission to
58:54
enter the land for um and the reason we are doing it is
59:01
um to in order to speak the message of Jesus you know and whether they were saved
59:09
pre-saved didn't matter they recognized you are doing the old ways of honor and
59:15
in fact they're God's ways you're not just assuming you have the right to come into an area now you know
59:22
you're doing the old ways and we would get the blessing every time
59:28
um and we we credit that with putting a whole different level of blessing on us
59:34
both um as the uh the gatekeeper people that God
59:41
had there originally and and also the blessing of the land
59:48
the Playa the yeah just the land in general you know the these were ancient
59:53
lands owned by the people and um so this there's plenty of scriptures
59:59
in the Bible about the land how the land actually is meant to uh give us light
1:00:04
cooperate with the sons of God and and such so uh that's a whole nother
1:00:11
layer that would be another conversation so um
1:00:16
so I wonder so for those of you who who showed up in the later years maybe Barb or Katie I'm I I had this image in my
1:00:25
mind of so you've heard about the spirit dream camp and maybe you've seen photos and I would still like to go through
1:00:31
some of the photos but you heard about the camp and so you finally take the leap to go for the first time and so
1:00:37
you're in the RV or or in the car or whatever and you're actually going into
1:00:43
the land of Burning Man and you drive up and you're seeing like the welcome home kind of sign you're going through the
1:00:48
whole ritual like just walk me through that moment of like you're actually venturing into the place that you've
1:00:54
heard about well by the time I went of course I had
1:01:01
heard the stories about going into the gate how the welcoming committee there
1:01:07
and so I was I was actually anticipating that with great Delight
1:01:13
getting down and applying and doing dust angels and all that and so it was really quite exciting I'll
1:01:19
tell you though when we got the camp up and running uh that very first Year Rob
1:01:25
did not go that year that I went because he took the year off he and Lisa had
1:01:31
handed over the leadership of the camp to Darren
1:01:36
and so they thought it best that for him to get um off to a good start
1:01:43
they would stay back and allow him to run and uh which is a beautiful thing
1:01:50
because then they well Lisa didn't come back although she wanted to but a job took her away from that but
1:01:57
Rob was able to come back and do that successfully so that's another example
1:02:03
of a transition in leadership that worked successfully in this Arena where Rob
1:02:11
could come under rocket and um and work successfully with
1:02:17
him but anyway I went when Rob didn't and so with this whole change of leadership there was a lot of
1:02:23
changes to the team and I'm just coming on new and um so there was a lot of
1:02:29
things that I didn't understand until later you know nuances of changes in leadership and I was supportive as I
1:02:37
could be um but there was a time when I was in
1:02:42
the the um the coffee Dome and so that was I
1:02:48
they were kind of putting me here and there and so I was in the coffee Dome and they had prepped me a little bit
1:02:55
that people would give you gifts maybe they'll give you stones and so on because it's the giving culture and and
1:03:01
you know be sure that you look at them and discern our what you need to do with them do you keep them and and pray over
1:03:09
them and cleanse them or do you throw them away and this sort of thing so this happened and uh and this somebody gave
1:03:16
me some little stones and I felt like they were defiled and but I was
1:03:23
new you know all of this was kind of new to me and so I went to
1:03:28
um one of the people and the the leaders in the dome and I and it was almost like
1:03:33
she didn't even recognize me she looked at those and and she could feel that defilement and told me what to do but it
1:03:40
was almost like that defilement almost closed off who I was to her almost it
1:03:47
was really an interesting interesting exchange and I got rid of the stones and
1:03:52
clints and all of that but it really um instructed for me it was quite quite
1:03:58
and so that from that experience that one experience and I went on and I
1:04:04
didn't I was pretty clear about receiving gifts and what to do with them but that first the initial one that
1:04:11
breaking the ice in that Arena so to speak was quite um well
1:04:18
striking yeah how are you going to know right like there's so much to figure out as
1:04:23
you get on the ground about how the whole thing works right under the weather and the dust and the people like
1:04:30
someone hands you some rocks like that's not gonna be the first thing on your mind right right yeah right yeah yeah
1:04:36
and so when I by the time I came around the protocols were pretty well established so I know there was some
1:04:42
years prior to me coming that were pretty wonky I've heard the stories but um I started in 2012 and I just felt
1:04:50
really covered I mean Andrea was my official sponsor but I had all these guys there was I don't know
1:04:55
either of us or something like that that went from North Idaho at the time and so I just kind of like held on to their
1:05:02
coattails and went along with things and if there was anything that fell off that was the beauty of the structure is my
1:05:09
first point of contact if I didn't understand or whatever would be my sponsor it would have been Andrea but I
1:05:15
knew because we were already doing Ministry together up here we had a dream interpretation Ministry that we'd been doing already for a few years together
1:05:21
um our whole team I just felt that real sense of covering but that was kind of my grafting in so I had a little bit of
1:05:27
an easier on-ramp on that front I wasn't as concerned about the spiritual aspect
1:05:33
of it I was more a big baby about the Dust yeah and the discomfort and True
1:05:40
Confession yes I dodged the rolling in the dust at the gate my new year I don't
1:05:46
have to do it either I didn't want to I'm like I'm not doing that I didn't do it you didn't no how did you get out of
1:05:51
it you just like say no I don't know we basically lied and then repented later
1:05:59
we we told we told them we were so shocked that two bikini clad women with
1:06:05
skulls tattooed down their backs entering our bus and we're looking like
1:06:11
we came out of the 4-H club in costumes you know we're we're going
1:06:18
oh yeah we're cool we've been here before yeah they just thought you Liars just play it cool yeah yeah but I I had
1:06:27
it was it was a good thing going in feeling that covered uh but for me um I had to be kicked out of the nest a
1:06:33
little bit um because I was I was afraid to stay step out and wasn't speaking up like so
1:06:40
the I remember one encounter I had and there were three people on the team and
1:06:45
um it was a young woman and I felt like she needed a mother's blessing but
1:06:52
I wasn't gonna do it right I'm a Noob I'm just learning and pass so right so
1:06:57
the other two people in the team they gave her this encounter at the end of it I turned to the team lead a woman named
1:07:03
Deborah and I told her you know I kind of felt like this and she said you you need to speak up more she said if you
1:07:09
feel something like that you can whisper in my ear um and that she was gonna she'd give me the guidance so that I wouldn't derail
1:07:16
and do something stupid right well I was kicking myself I was so mad at myself because I knew this girl needed the love
1:07:23
of a mother and I was feeling it in my heart and I didn't extend it and I was really upset with myself and so I just
1:07:30
prayed I was like you know what God she I know she needs this and I miss the boat and anyway I just had to entrust
1:07:36
god with it um this is a great testimony about the Synergy of the spirit that our camp operated in so
1:07:43
that night at dinner we had dinner and then I go up to the station where we're washing our plates and I overhear one of
1:07:51
our other teammates Rochelle who actually is one of our Idaho teammates talking about this young gal who came
1:07:56
into the coffee Dome she had an encounter and she was really undone by her encounter and so she went into the
1:08:02
coffee Dome just to process which was really common when people would do that a lot and God highlighted this gal to
1:08:09
Rochelle and she went over and sat with her and um held her and blessed her as a mother
1:08:15
and all I started crying right there at the dishwashing station because it was like God had God had it God was more
1:08:22
invested in her getting that blessing of a mother than I was I was invited to be part of that but God had my back and had
1:08:29
this young gals back and boy what a testimony to the Synergy of the spirit
1:08:34
um just between the encounter tent and the coffee Dome there wasn't the communication going back and forth
1:08:40
verbally between us but boy the spirit made it known what was going on in those places and if one needed to pick up
1:08:46
where someone else left off so great learning experience for me in that and
1:08:52
Faith Builder too and how often did that work with body art I was just gonna say
1:08:57
that one of the things on our menu board was inspired art and so we had artists
1:09:03
who had actually asked God for a prophetic picture and they would paint that somewhere on
1:09:10
the person's body and then they would prophesy to them about that body art and
1:09:15
it would speak right into their heart just like an arrow and so often there was such a Synergy between
1:09:22
um the different aspects of our camp is that person then would go and have a
1:09:27
regular encounter like um to go from the coffee Dome where they had body art and then go into the
1:09:33
encounter tent and the people didn't see their body or that they just got painted but they would have the same exact word
1:09:40
that they were just given with the with the picture and then they would show them oh my gosh yeah what they just
1:09:46
painted on me yeah and vice versa that would happen you know they would go to encounter first they'd get some
1:09:51
incredible word and then they'd go get body art and she would she would paint exactly what she the person just
1:09:57
encountered without knowing yeah I had a great story actually Katie and I were on
1:10:02
a team together and this was um early on and I remember you'd gotten a picture of
1:10:07
this gal that she was like a a water jug but there was a crack and so it was like
1:10:13
all this stuff in here just was leaking out it was a picture and it just kept leaking out and it was and so it was a
1:10:19
healing Journey that we took her on to heal this place in her heart where it was it was not a good leaking out I
1:10:25
can't remember the exact gist of it so she goes from our encounter and into the coffee Dome doesn't share what the
1:10:32
encounter was and meet up the team member in there who was painting on her painted a water pitcher on the scal's
1:10:38
arm wow no crack yeah and not knowing what had happened and we heard about that later and it was like mind blown
1:10:45
like yes and she her mind was blown oh yeah absolutely yeah yeah this is great
1:10:51
yeah I had to do that I've actually got the picture of the coffee Dome here let me share it real quick yeah I've got a
1:10:56
bunch of pictures actually it's here we go that's the coffee dome right yeah yeah
1:11:01
yes we've got the speakers and the DJ set up what was that no DJ we just said no yeah
1:11:09
speakers with music got it yes I created a uh the music the playlist and we would
1:11:15
just play it was uh I had a new several playlists that I could play during the
1:11:22
day and uh we played that it's a variety of Music we did have a real we have a
1:11:29
lot of wonderful Encounters in the Dome the coffee Dome one I think we all
1:11:34
remember is there and of course the coffee Dome we pray through it and cleanse it and so
1:11:41
on but still things get through and I'm sure there was one day when there's one spot one specific area in the coffee
1:11:48
Dome that was attracting licentiousness and
1:11:54
um naked yeah it kind of sensuality kind of things and and so we had to monitor
1:12:02
all that of course and so we're going hmm there's something up here and so uh
1:12:07
one of the gals had maybe it was was Rochelle I forget who it was Rochelle
1:12:12
had the sense of um we need a mom no no no she she went
1:12:18
she she tried all of her tricks okay didn't know what to do and so she went
1:12:23
to our kitchen lady named amphora and said please come help us this is what's
1:12:30
happening we don't know what to do and so amphora goes into the Dome and she's like praying going God what am I
1:12:36
supposed to do I don't know what to do and as she walks into the Dome she hears the Lord say to her children don't like
1:12:44
to sin in front of their mothers and so she felt like she was supposed to
1:12:49
release a mother's blessing over that spot and so she did that she released a mother's blessing over that spot and the
1:12:56
licenses never happened again oh wow a creative solution yeah yeah
1:13:02
yeah I think this was one of the things that I remember being really struck by is you know for me spending all the time
1:13:09
in Secular Progressive new age whatever mystical culture you know the perception of energy is very real
1:13:15
right and then and once you once I got a an understanding of that it's not something that I could ever forget or
1:13:22
deny was a real was a real thing right and so um and so I think what you guys did so
1:13:28
well is you had that awareness you had that understanding which gave you uh not
1:13:34
only the ability to have spiritual insight into what was going on around you but also to communicate with people
1:13:39
from the culture about this phenomenon that usually gets dismissed by so many other people that you can actually feel
1:13:46
energy things can be invested with the energy of of someone or something or an act or something like that but a lot of
1:13:52
people don't have that um that sense and so for you going out to burning man if you don't have that
1:13:58
sense you don't develop your that sense you'll be in real danger because it's real and then also for people that are
1:14:04
looking to communicate on that level about this way that they have of perceiving reality quite accurately not
1:14:10
always but sometimes quite accurately you know it you can meet them on the level that they're at especially
1:14:16
especially me to be able to understand that yeah the coexisting spiritual realm is very
1:14:24
real in both kingdoms yeah say more say more about that unpacked yes and yeah
1:14:32
well well you know and I I prefer the excuse me
1:14:37
put the put the weight on the Kingdom of Light God's kingdom yeah because
1:14:42
we all know too well how people get afraid of curses and and things that
1:14:48
satanists and witches might do but um listen in God's kingdom a curse
1:14:54
causeless shall not come in a scripture shall not land you know
1:15:00
um unless there is a cause and then but we have the out of repentance you know and we also know that who's given us all
1:15:07
authority over all works of the enemy you know so we don't have to be subject
1:15:14
to that we can change the atmosphere we can train the curses on ground but we
1:15:19
could also change the curses over people and we don't have to live with that stuff and when there's an intentionality
1:15:25
of 35 people on a team and a big yes in other words we're agreed in faith that's
1:15:33
a big yes it's easier to operate that way you know we're not wading through a
1:15:39
mass of unbelief one of the one of the unfortunate things about many of our
1:15:45
Christian circles is there's a lot of unbelief as to what God can do or who he is yeah so it's very hard to Wade
1:15:52
through a wall of unbelief and Jesus you know there's several times when you
1:15:59
have to take out the people that didn't believe would I think it was his
1:16:04
mother-in-law to heal the mother-in-law and said you people leave you're interfering with the ability to heal and
1:16:11
then there were whole cities that Jesus couldn't go because they did not their unbelief was so strong and you know if
1:16:19
your unbelief is really strong then you must be believing in something else like fear right so that's not good right
1:16:26
Peter's mother-in-law Peter's mother-in-law not Jesus's mother I was gonna ask I was like do I say
1:16:33
that's fine yeah they've got it yeah boy
1:16:38
I don't remember which book that was in yeah yeah
1:16:45
anyways uh we just know that it's it's our privilege and joy to change
1:16:54
call it change that sounds strange but change the atmosphere you know if it's dark we come to bring light in fact we
1:17:01
are the light of the world just our presence when we personalize that and be very
1:17:07
intentional because Jesus said it you're the light of the world yeah what does that mean that means you are radiating
1:17:14
something that changes the land the atmosphere the people around you we were also very intentional about
1:17:22
um creating the atmosphere within our camp where the presence of God would be
1:17:27
the you know the fullest and that that's also part of the story of you know the
1:17:32
progression of things is the art because Burning Man is an art festival and the
1:17:38
first few years I went we were you know the ladies in the in the camp were just decorating the tent
1:17:44
with some pretty fabrics and you know just kind of throwing it together but God put it on my heart about my third
1:17:51
year to be more intentional and create something specific and he put it on my
1:17:57
heart to do a tree of life and so he gave me the download of how to do that how to create this tree of life
1:18:03
with these you know branches and leaves hanging down and everything and it absolutely transformed the atmosphere
1:18:10
that was in that encounter tint just like uh when God gave specific
1:18:17
directions with his Tabernacle or his Temple he he had all kinds of specific
1:18:22
art he wanted created in there and then it was a place for him to dwell and when you go through that
1:18:30
intentionality to partner with god with his creativity what do you want to release in this space artistically then
1:18:37
his presence comes and and it just transformed we call it atmosphere design and by the time you came along we had
1:18:43
done the tree of life for four years and God gave us a new theme which was the visions of Ezekiel so you came in to
1:18:51
whirlwinds and rainbows and creatures with eyes all around a lot of strange
1:18:56
images Wheels within Wheels within Wheels yeah that was what I needed what
1:19:03
I needed to see say more because you had mentioned early Ezekiel Ezekiel earlier in the conversation
1:19:10
you know what if the very images from the Bible that God tells us to do what
1:19:17
if there's a whole power and ability to shift directions or motion there's a lot of
1:19:23
motion yeah you know this is just to get people thinking you know what if because
1:19:29
again that coexisting spiritual realm is because the bail is rent and we have
1:19:35
access to the Heavenly realm of God these things become more real to us it's
1:19:41
it's more than Fabric in color yeah yeah you had an encounter with that face
1:19:49
of Jesus yes I did yeah like wearing goggles yes yes he did that's the wild part
1:19:57
because you know I I I I tell the story and it would be easy easy it would be
1:20:03
easy to dismiss what I saw if it was just if it was just a face from a
1:20:08
painting like thoughts can be transferred between people right like you could be standing behind me Katie I
1:20:14
remember you had your hands on either side of my head and you could be concentrating on the face of Jesus and maybe I'd pick up on it right like a
1:20:20
carbon copy but that wasn't what it was it's like a man walked up to me wearing goggles like wearing Burning Man goggles
1:20:26
to protect himself from the dust like what do you what what do you even what do I even do with that like
1:20:33
exactly exactly yeah and that was part of like the four faces that was part of
1:20:38
what Ezekiel Saw that was part of your your decorative shift let's say yeah it was the living creatures with the faces
1:20:44
so the face of an ox the face of a lion the face of an eagle in the face of a man and you know it doesn't say in there
1:20:52
that the face of a man is a basic Jesus but I decided when I painted that to use
1:20:57
akiana's painting of Jesus as my model and it was just a sketch it wasn't like
1:21:04
a full painting it was just a sketch of a man's face but you're not the only one that recognized it as Jesus there was
1:21:10
another woman that came in and came to my my encounter group one day and she
1:21:17
wanted Deliverance she asked she plain out said I have two demons can you get
1:21:22
rid of them said oh yeah we can we can do that if
1:21:28
we're gonna do that I need to use the name Jesus is that okay with you and she said oh yes I recognized him
1:21:34
when I came in I saw him on that thing I'm like wow I never said that was Jesus
1:21:41
it was yeah it was apparent yeah I could kind of tell it was Jesus but I still remember Katie I asked you because yeah
1:21:48
you asked me is that Jesus I knew it but I was like okay I don't want to walk out of this moment this is the thought that
1:21:53
was going through my head is I don't want to walk out of this moment and then later be like okay maybe that was some guy who was the founder of the camp or
1:22:00
something like that some human some some other person right so I wanted to make sure so that's why I asked but do you
1:22:07
have that picture well in the the lineup of pictures you have that picture of you in front of the the face of Jesus that
1:22:13
manner oh yeah they'll pull that up right now let's see whoever had the camera got
1:22:19
some great pictures yeah oh man let's go through yeah so this one right this one of me on my knees yeah yes yeah
1:22:26
yeah and my and you can see like you can see the dirt on top of my head because I found my head down and you can see the
1:22:31
dust on my feet and everything yeah yeah and then when I took the picture with you that which I can see there also I
1:22:38
asked if you wanted to wipe because I said oh you've got some Playa dust and you said no I want to leave it there yeah yeah the one right above there yeah
1:22:45
this one yeah you can see it on your face yeah yeah and the and the and the gifts that you
1:22:52
guys gave the necklaces I'm wearing yeah you guys made those for the people who came and you also gave me apply a name I
1:22:58
never I hadn't I'd been three times and I hadn't been given one before yeah oh what was it oh was it
1:23:05
yeah because you're like a strong Oak yes I was uh I was definitely a
1:23:12
different version of myself back then as well which I think you'd probably see in the photo oh yeah totally very different
1:23:18
completely different and then so listen you've got this one you've got this photo here what's this this is Barb this
1:23:23
is you with somebody yeah at home with Mother's blessings yeah yeah there we go yeah loving on a burner
1:23:30
and so as as the so here's some you have some photos of Burning Man this is what the you know oh there's there's the man
1:23:36
I don't know what year that would have been but the man was still on the ground so I guess it was probably
1:23:41
2000s somewhere yeah yeah I don't know and then there's the man again oh that
1:23:48
was the da Vinci's yeah and she's Workshop Adventures yep oh man
1:23:56
yeah I mean I think for people who haven't been before like there's a lot of infrastructure that goes into burning
1:24:02
man and one of the things that I wanted to say earlier was that you know if you were doing Ministry at a place like um
1:24:07
North Korea or China like those countries you know and the cities in them they're fixed in in place and they
1:24:15
don't go anywhere Beijing is not going anywhere right you can go there and it's it's consistent
1:24:21
um from year to year day to day hour to hour but Burning Man really only exists for the public for one week out of the
1:24:28
year and it's constantly changing and it's very much while there are a lot of principles that stay the same it's also
1:24:34
a moving Target right to be able to be able to so when you talk about going into the culture like yes there are
1:24:40
consistent aspects of the culture that are durable from year to year but at the same time every year you went in I
1:24:47
imagine you went into somewhat very different environments especially as it grew like if you were there from 2002
1:24:54
sorry 2004 to 2016 I went in 2003 so I know what it was like back then and then
1:25:00
I came back in 2013 and I Met You in 2015 but that 10-year period I went
1:25:06
through inflationary growth I remember in 2003 it was like 30 000 people you could walk the whole festival and didn't
1:25:12
need a bike when I went back in 2013 forget walking anywhere and the festival was like 60 or it doubled in size so
1:25:20
what was like what was that like being on the ground year over year watching the festival grow and change it kind of
1:25:25
become that moving Target Shangri-La yeah I don't know we just sort of we
1:25:31
just ourselves you know that's true yeah we just rode with it it's like you said
1:25:37
if you wanted to go look at it when it's 80 000 people it's a lot different yeah
1:25:42
yeah I won't say though that I mean as as a Believer who sees what sin does to
1:25:50
people it is it was very disturbing to see the growth to see how that was
1:25:57
spreading and the lawlessness that was being bred out there and then also being
1:26:03
taken from burning man out into the world yeah it's it's grieving yeah
1:26:09
that's true because there was an intentionality too that we were aware of by The Burning Man leadership to do
1:26:16
forums across the world and to kind of spread that sort of gospel of uh
1:26:22
yeah the gospel of Burning Man so to speak so that's happened the weight of evil
1:26:29
was growing so okay let's let's talk about that for a minute because I
1:26:35
remember when I went out in 2003 and the festival had kind of this wild west kind
1:26:40
of spirit but there was like a when I say there's a lawfulness you know at least everyone's like we don't really
1:26:45
know what we're doing so here's some fire and here's some plywood and here's some crazy kind of lasers and art like cool yeah it's fun but when I went back
1:26:52
in 2013 it felt like the festival had quote gone pro right and then there was
1:26:58
a solidity to it and there was a permissiveness there was a darker permissiveness to it like the wild west
1:27:05
has a permissiveness but I would say it also had a sense of like experimentation within defined
1:27:12
boundaries somehow but then it felt like 2013 that it flipped and I don't know
1:27:17
how to articulate it but I did feel that the evil had grown quite significant and only continued to from 2013 2015 up
1:27:25
until up until the present day like talk about that experience because that's the that's the the discernment that I'm
1:27:32
trying to have is like I don't think everything there was all bad all the time but it certainly felt over time
1:27:38
there was more bad more of the time as the years went on sure yeah all I can
1:27:43
say is I've I'm I've always been a very sensitive person to atmospheres to
1:27:49
what's in people you know I'm I'm a Feeler and so I have to say in the 10
1:27:55
years I went I grew so much but every single year I would enter the Playa and be you know my
1:28:03
senses were accosted by what was out there and so as we'd be setting up our
1:28:08
camp I'm like oh God why am I here again [Laughter]
1:28:14
and then you know by the time we get rolling with the ministry then you're you know you're refocused on why you're
1:28:20
there again and you know and the grace of God comes over you but yeah you have to deal with that you have to deal with
1:28:26
that yeah well if you look at the 10 principles that Rob's got them printed out here the 10 principles of Burning Man I remember reading that before I
1:28:33
went out the first time and really they've got some pretty altruistic principles that the the event was
1:28:38
founded upon yeah but um what ended up happening is it just degenerated into a big orgy yeah uh so by the time we
1:28:46
retired in 2017 uh the tide had turned to the point that even the true burners
1:28:52
like the people who'd been around for a long time since the beginning of it they were having been a hard time with the
1:28:58
direction that it had gone because it they've gotten away from this kind of radical generosity radical Community I
1:29:05
mean the the principles essential core principles are not bad a bad thing but
1:29:11
what got built upon that was just yuckier and yuckier as they just got darker and darker as the years went on
1:29:17
yeah the principles were went by the wayside
1:29:22
uh and that people going really didn't consider them that much it seemed like
1:29:28
to me it was more like oh we're going to Burning Man and we're gonna let anything
1:29:33
fly yeah throw off all Innovations and just yeah you know dive into all the sin
1:29:39
yep you know that they didn't do in normal life yeah I remember one one year
1:29:45
there was a group of Ira young Irish uh
1:29:50
kid that had I think they had graduated high school whatever that is over there
1:29:55
and kind of were young beginning College when they a group of them came over and
1:30:01
one of the things that they were going to do while in the States was go to burning man it's like you know it had
1:30:07
grown worldwide to that kind of a oh let's go to Burning Man and you know let
1:30:13
experience anything and everything in it I I don't think any one of them really
1:30:19
uh um would say they they could quote any
1:30:24
of those principles yeah yeah it wasn't why they were there yeah yeah can you
1:30:30
read the principles real quick just so everyone knows what they are um sure
1:30:35
[Music] so um
1:30:41
radical inclusion No Stranger you know got uh we we worked
1:30:48
under when when we're the first year we were there we were with IHOP and the leader Randy Bollinger he was actually a
1:30:55
pastor and he actually befriended um Larry Harvard Larry Harvey the the
1:31:01
founder Visionary he befriended him I mean they became Buds and there was a
1:31:06
video that came out called Pastor on the Playa they interviewed him and and he
1:31:11
went and said you know God can work with any of these principles yep and so the
1:31:17
bigger thing as I read these is choice and how you do that people got at the
1:31:22
center or do you put your own desires at the center so radical inclusion next one
1:31:28
is gifting we're all about God's greatest gift you're all about gifting uh D
1:31:34
commodification um in order to preserve the spirit of
1:31:40
gifting our community seeks to create social environments that are un mediated by commercial sponsorships transactions
1:31:47
or advertising and I remember in the early days you have to even block lettering like U-Haul on a trailer they
1:31:55
didn't want any commercial thing at all uh radical self-reliance Burning Man
1:32:01
encouraged individuals to discover exercise and rely on their inner
1:32:06
resources radical self-expression uh unique recognizing the unique gifts
1:32:14
of the individual and no one is like you and you should have Liberty to exercise that well you can see where that can go
1:32:21
off the cliff or produce beautiful art you know communal effort our community
1:32:27
creates Cooperative cooperation and collaboration we strive to produce promote and protect social networks
1:32:34
public spaces works of art methods of communication civic responsibility we value Civil
1:32:41
Society committee members who organize events should assume responsibility for public
1:32:49
welfare um
1:32:55
makes sense I'll read that again you broke up for just a second God created when yeah leaving no Trace was
1:33:02
yeah yeah yeah our participation is committed to
1:33:09
radically participatory ethic and uh
1:33:15
I only wish churches were more like pets All In
1:33:21
and then immediacy uh immediate experience is in many ways the most important Touchstone of value in our
1:33:28
culture we seek to overcome barriers that stand between us and recognition of our inner selves the reality of those
1:33:34
around us participation in society and contact with a natural world exceeding
1:33:41
human powers no idea can substitute for this experience of immediacy
1:33:49
yeah I mean you can see yeah I mean they're they're good for what they are but definitely it's easy to see how you
1:33:55
could build anything off of that especially the what is radical self-expression because my experience of
1:34:01
going to Burning Man from secular culture was at at least by 2013 2015. it had become that however you choose to
1:34:10
express yourself is is innately spiritual and therefore
1:34:15
good so if you want to go out there and you want to and and you can be whoever you are in in the everyday life and then
1:34:22
you go out to Burning Man you go quote home right home was where you belong not the 51 weeks out of the year but that
1:34:28
one weekend of the year you're home and then you go out to Burning Man and then if you want to walk around naked and
1:34:33
paint yourself blue and get into orgies and do all the drugs and do all the stuff that is your self that is your radical self-expression your
1:34:40
self-expression is inherently spiritual and if inherently spiritual it is inherently good and that that definitely
1:34:47
grew and even to the point where it became almost expected then you know
1:34:53
back in 2003 I remember you didn't have to dress up if you did cool you know it was encouraged but by 2013 15 there was
1:35:00
like a uniform it's kind of expected you had a furry vest and if you're not doing that then you're not properly
1:35:05
participating so it was like almost this real subtle air of shaming around like no you're supposed to be crazier if
1:35:11
you're not crazy you're not at Burning Man it's like why do I gotta be that I want to be that way like I'm here for
1:35:16
different reasons but it almost it almost tried to start pulling the worst out of people and I think it succeeded in many ways
1:35:23
for for an art community who said we all have to look like a Mad Max movie yeah
1:35:29
right steampunk whatever yeah yeah who said that was a standard yeah yeah
1:35:35
so as you guys you guys would do your your ministry work during the day what was it like when you would go riding
1:35:41
around at night like I knowing what we've talked about that the day is full of so many protocols and so much
1:35:47
spiritual cleansing and so much keeping yourself safe within your own God protected space then you really Venture
1:35:53
into the the Heart of Darkness in some ways the night that burning man would be coming this is where we went yeah
1:36:00
we wanted to see the cool art we didn't go into the dark dark places yeah we
1:36:06
just stayed away from that yeah we I remember one year going to see we typically we'd want to see the man and
1:36:12
maybe see the temple um and the one year was a carnival I don't remember what the theme was but it
1:36:18
was a Carnival Carnival of mirrors yeah I mean carnivals are already creepy enough and then you throw the Burning
1:36:23
Man element at it and we went to see the man but it was amazed that you had to go through and we didn't realize we got
1:36:30
into it and it got darker and we'd always travel in groups also we didn't go anywhere Alone
1:36:35
um and then um we realized uh actually this is too too far too dark and trying
1:36:41
to get out of there um I kind of started to panic I was like looking the walls were so tall I was thinking can I climb that like I want it
1:36:47
out so bad because it was just too far it was too dark so we were we were
1:36:52
careful where we went and right yeah plus I don't know it was it every night
1:36:58
was different but usually when I would only go out maybe once maybe twice uh on
1:37:05
the Playa at night do because I wanted to see the the cars and the and like
1:37:10
they said the the man and so on but I you know once I saw that it was like
1:37:16
okay well I'm just good with chilling in our camp and sitting around and chatting
1:37:21
with people drinking some wine and oftentimes we were so exhausted yeah by the end of the day because we would be
1:37:27
ministering heavily all day I didn't want to go out I went out once just to
1:37:33
see the cool things and then I would stay at home yeah and rest I'm an old guy I want to go to bed at night yeah by
1:37:40
my last couple years I didn't go out at night anymore I didn't I don't think I went out the
1:37:45
last time there was a couple times when a couple of our team members their son had an art car yeah and he would take us
1:37:52
out and that was different because we were all together on this car and it just felt a lot more protected so that
1:37:57
was fun now there was one year when uh just down the street not too far from us
1:38:03
um there was a little camp that was showing these old movies and and we did
1:38:08
Venture down there and watched uh Princess Bride Princess Bride Monty Python the whole it was a quotable movie
1:38:14
so the expectation is that you could quote it the entire movie if you wanted to which was so cool that was fun yeah
1:38:20
yeah yeah there were a couple camps we would find that were lighter yeah uh and there was a wine Camp down the way a
1:38:27
couple years yeah and they had like corn hole in the hula hoops and um but that was pretty clean you know
1:38:33
the bottom line is if you give people the freedom to do whatever they want to do without being judged there are people
1:38:40
who will Choose Wisely and people who will choose badly yeah yeah so you find
1:38:46
it all out there oh yeah yeah and as you guys started to get more well known and people started to realize like
1:38:53
there's this thing going on over there what was that like when people started to figure out kind of who you guys who
1:38:58
you guys were I mean there must have been a moment where that happened yeah but you know I think
1:39:04
by then um they have they honored us they respected us I mean I even in the part
1:39:11
of the early years uh part of our learning curve is they would encourage us they would go oh
1:39:18
no don't leave early you're part of our community you know and we you know we told them
1:39:23
listen we're kind of done when they're going to burn the man and yeah Saturday night but but you know they they would
1:39:33
they did a lot to say you're you are part of us you're burners and indeed we had to embrace that to go no we're
1:39:40
we fit we were sent into this culture to fit in a way but but with a difference
1:39:47
you know yeah so they honored that yeah and we definitely developed relationships with certain other camps
1:39:53
there was one camp in particular Rhythm wave there were five rhythms dance camp and um
1:39:59
what's that ecstatic dance where you just kind of move your body yeah yeah uh
1:40:04
they would actually send their new team members to have an encounter and they would say go Monday or Tuesday first
1:40:12
part of the week because that we weren't as busy um and so the first couple of days it was really common for us to have rhythm
1:40:18
waiver after Rhythm weather in our encounters because they just had them all come or the people who had been before they knew show up early in the
1:40:25
week it's easier to get in and get an encounter so we would see them and then we would um we got to the point where we'd have a meal with them every year
1:40:32
um so really neat relationship developed there with that we also had people that said that told us they they would come
1:40:39
to Burning Man in order to come to our campus yes it was their privilege to come to our camp Yeah Yeah Carl or
1:40:46
people just you know get so blown away they go
1:40:51
I don't have to see the rest of Burning Man they need to go home or they just do what Andrew just said they just hang out
1:40:57
in the coffee Dome all the time yeah so they sort of adopted us yeah and I think
1:41:03
some of those that seemed like there were also some that were repeaters to our camp that also began to leave early
1:41:11
before the burning of a man because it was getting so dark even too dark for them it's like nah we're done yeah
1:41:18
yeah I completely get that um you know it's it's I I I think of you
1:41:25
guys as as odd as as odd as it sounds embodying the best principles of Burning
1:41:30
Man right like like you took it in the right direction you know rather than towards darkness and self-indulgence and
1:41:37
and uh and uh what we might call spiritual materialism or material spiritualism right like oh what I do
1:41:43
with my body is spiritual right spiritual materialism you guys actually took it in in the right direction embodied all the same principles but in
1:41:50
the direction of of light and goodness and beauty and virtue and of course God but you didn't wear God on the outside
1:41:56
like there wasn't a big cross at the front you know what I mean it wasn't it wasn't like a church it was you wore
1:42:02
these principles in who you were and what you did and let them speak for themselves in a way towards virtue so it
1:42:08
makes sense to me that people would come and experience what you have to offer and be like yeah I've gotten everything I need out of Burning Man other than
1:42:14
like oh look at the cool Blinky things and then I go home right right yeah and it all goes back to that
1:42:20
hunger inherent and so many of the people that spirituality was there
1:42:26
and basically our mission was to find it to meet it and to redefine it redefine
1:42:33
it for people over there or give it an interpretation if they didn't know what
1:42:38
they were feeling yeah that's the beauty of God I think he I think he likes doing that you know he
1:42:46
put the hunger there originally you put put the empty hole in the human heart that needs to be filled only within yeah
1:42:53
yeah with that note it's 110 and I have an appointment at 1 30. oh
1:43:00
I have a couple more questions but I mean I can take for the rest of the three of you and Andrea if you have to go by all means or we can wrap it up now
1:43:06
if you guys have to all go together but it's no problem they can carry on okay it's lovely to see you thank you for
1:43:12
thank you great to be part of this thank you good to see you
1:43:17
oh nice Kim yes oh no I said hi
1:43:23
hi Andrew yeah so I I think for me the one part of
1:43:28
my story and we'll just go for just a few more minutes if that's okay the one part of the story that I don't often talk about is how I actually how I
1:43:35
actually should we move our we look a little lopsided now exactly yeah is
1:43:41
actually how I came reorganizing the frame
1:43:51
all right anyway we feel better now perfect more balanced right feng shui is
1:43:58
actually how I came to even meet the guy who directed me to your camp in the first place so as I've I've mentioned
1:44:05
other other places I was dating this woman for a number of years and that relationship ended and this was at the
1:44:11
end of August 2015 and suddenly it's like well I'm not in this relationship anymore I'm okay with camping in tents
1:44:18
she was more of an RV kind of girl and I was like well now I can go so I just decided I felt a strong call to go to
1:44:24
Burning Man and so I went and people are always selling tickets at the last minute but the thing is I rode with a
1:44:30
bunch of people in with an RV and we we wrote we wrote Into the to the festival and the thing was no one no one knew
1:44:38
that I was coming you know so it's like suddenly I'm just showing up normally people spend a year planning what camp they're going to be
1:44:43
with and they contribute to camps monetarily and organizationally I'm just showing up kind of like as an orphan
1:44:48
right and so I'm in this RV full of guys I don't remember who's in the RV and they don't know where to park either not
1:44:54
because of me because they don't know where they're going right and so the RV as we're driving onto the Playa tries to
1:45:02
stop at three or four different locations right now and I know that I have friends I have the coordinates for
1:45:07
my friends camps are all over all over the Playa from like you know uh 11
1:45:12
o'clock you know on the clock face it's five o'clock and I think like you know three or four o'clock and so trying to
1:45:19
figure out where to park and we end up just parking the first place they could find a spot to fit their RV because it
1:45:26
was like Wednesday right and so by that point the festival's kind of filling up and finding places to park your RV
1:45:32
closer to the center versus The Rim you know is really difficult so we park in this uh particular spot that isn't part
1:45:40
of anyone's Camp it's just a free space so that meant I was closer to one Camp than another one and we were drove
1:45:46
around for like an hour and a half trying to find a place to park and that meant I was closer to one camp and then another so I'm like okay I can either
1:45:52
hitch a ride an art car all the way to the other side of the festival to meet up with one group of group of friends or
1:45:58
I can just carry all my stuff two or three blocks to this other Camp it's like okay I'll just carry my stuff and
1:46:04
see what they have and so if the RV had parked somewhere else and because I went there and set up when I did and put my
1:46:10
tent right where it was went to sleep woke up in the morning and then that morning is when I met the guy who
1:46:16
directed meteor Camp because he was an attempt next to me like if I had arrived if I had if we had parked on the other
1:46:22
side of the Playa I would I never would have I mean who knows right like you know God makes all things work right right you know what the coincidence
1:46:30
Coincidence of me of the RV struggling to find a place to park so we could park
1:46:35
in that space so that I could be at that camp and meet that guy the morning after
1:46:40
he had seen you guys yeah all those pieces lining up that got me there in the first place yeah I mean it's it
1:46:47
blows my mind yeah I love that kind of hindsight when you see the hand of God orchestrating things behind the scenes
1:46:53
that you're completely unaware of and the outcome is phenomous it is mind-blowing yeah
1:46:59
yeah and then you know just last couple questions like are you still other than
1:47:05
me are you still in touch with anybody from the um from the event or do you ever get feedback of like oh I met you
1:47:11
guys and you set my life in a whole new direction or yeah yeah I heard from a um
1:47:17
a guy that he lives in New York City he had a radical in common with God uh the
1:47:23
year we were with him um yeah he just was wondering if we were going and
1:47:29
um I don't perceive you know it was a slight chat and he was getting ready to
1:47:34
get on a plane to come here it was like a last minute getting ready to go to burning man it was a last minute thing
1:47:41
so we didn't carry on a big chat but yeah I thought it was significant he got
1:47:46
in touch yeah there was a one man from Rhythm wave um named Rich actually I was involved in
1:47:54
an encounter with him it was my newbie year and coming to find out it was his also and Rob had been telling me
1:48:01
there'll come a moment when the penny will drop which is that moment when you just it's like something in you just
1:48:09
grasp into what's happening there the move of God and um it was in the encounter with Rich it's when it
1:48:15
happened and um I was undone by it and he was undone by it he went over in the coffee Dome afterwards apparently and
1:48:21
was in there weeping and crying and anyway the next year he came back for an encounter and randomly was seated with
1:48:29
my encounter team and it was that moment of recognition and excitement to see each other well after that every year
1:48:35
when he came he would actually ask to be seated with me and watching the process of him coming to the Lord over the years
1:48:43
how so the encounters that he had with us were significant touch points so he
1:48:49
and I still keep in touch Loosely you guys ran into him randomly at a Native
1:48:54
American uh event that you guys went to yeah yeah um and then also there was one year
1:49:01
where there was this young German gal that came to our camp and she had come with her sister and her sister was
1:49:08
wholly embracing The Burning Man experience and this gal was completely freaked out by the Bernie Mac experience
1:49:14
and ended up coming I think every day for an encounter um as she hung out in
1:49:20
the coffee Dome a lot we were a safe space for her um she and I have been communicating a little bit also which has been really
1:49:26
cool so um I know and there was a maybe not so much now but um for a few
1:49:34
years there was a another gal in San Francisco and she might be in touch with
1:49:39
some of the other uh team members yeah uh yeah and Shannon and yeah yeah
1:49:46
I think there's some of the other team members that are in touch with some of
1:49:51
the people they came across as well yeah like this yeah so you know it's one of the things that we've learned actually
1:49:56
through the ministry um that I mean me learning it through the dream interpretation Ministry you
1:50:02
guys had already had a lot of experience with that is the whole thing of God entrusts us with this whatever
1:50:07
Encounters in front of us are responsible for that and then beyond that it's up to God where he's going to take things so learning to release
1:50:15
to God the responsibility for what happens after that yeah um because like
1:50:21
I said it's pretty hard sometimes to you know watch them walk out of our encounter tent back out into whatever
1:50:27
was going to happen out there but uh we just you know would do what we were called to do in the little time that we
1:50:33
had with them and then beyond that it's up to God you know and I learned so much also about the the reach of God's arm
1:50:40
you know if if he can direct people to our camp at Burning Man to get that
1:50:46
significant of an encounter he can do it anywhere yeah yeah exactly
1:50:51
and I just one one more question is is uh I don't I don't want to ask but that means that I that I that I I have to ask
1:50:58
is that I want to walk through my encounter through your eyes because I've told the story through my eyes so many
1:51:03
times and I think about it all the time so like just just walk through like this guy shows up in front of you in like
1:51:10
three and a half hours later and then five years later if there's anything you want to share for that that um yeah
1:51:15
please feel free you know for for from my perspective as
1:51:21
I was thinking about this I I loved how it unfolded because I could see uh when
1:51:30
you sat down we get started and you know I could I could feel and sense and see
1:51:37
um your and feel that that thing in the spirit where you're you're coming
1:51:45
forward and you're sharing some stuff and then you pull back this back and forth and how how much can we go and it
1:51:51
was like almost like an onion you know like we get through
1:51:56
one thing and you go wow you kind of be really impacted and then yeah yeah I
1:52:01
want some more and we would just keep going and I remember it was a beautiful
1:52:06
thing um and I remember which I really highly
1:52:12
value this will because not everybody would do this but when that point in
1:52:18
time when you said uh I forget the words that you use but basically you were
1:52:24
talking about your relationship with men and father figures and so on and and uh
1:52:29
questioned Larry yeah and I thought that was brilliant I was I still to this day
1:52:34
it's like that was so cool that you had the courage you had the fortitude go no I'm
1:52:41
here now and I'm not gonna bail because I'm I'm questioning this guy's
1:52:48
intentions or whatever and you just brought it out and that gave Larry the
1:52:53
opening to be able to express his heart to you and I just thought that was a beautiful beautiful thing and I loved
1:53:00
how you how that common that coming forward and coming back and this whole
1:53:06
thing and and going yeah no that was good I think I can take some more let's go yeah yeah yeah yeah your
1:53:13
voraciousness came through in that encounter yeah you were actually an easy encounter in that way because of your
1:53:21
hunger or your willingness your openness uh that we definitely had encounters over the years where we were really
1:53:27
having to try to draw people out and you were there to you were like bring it and
1:53:34
I just and the of the unfolding is a great way of saying it you know we we
1:53:40
wouldn't know it was kind of a weird sensation to be sitting in our seats and waiting for someone to be seated in
1:53:45
front of us like from one encounter the next we had no idea idea what was going to be seated with us and I would always
1:53:52
try to guess you know like you were saying you were looking and seeing which team you want to be with I would try to guess like okay which one are they going
1:53:58
to seat next and yeah I was almost always wrong but anyway not knowing what was going to happen and then to have you sit down with just your um
1:54:06
just openness and hunger and um it was an incredible faith-building encounter
1:54:12
for me and probably for you also just walking through the whole thing and then when you shared that thing about seeing
1:54:19
Jesus with the dust mask and the goggles that was kind of one of those things
1:54:25
that kind of like oh gee like he would show up I mean on the plyo full gear you
1:54:33
know so we're getting wrecked right along with you in that encounter it was amazing
1:54:39
when uh when I had that that inspiration was like just dropped to take you over
1:54:45
and and lead you over it's like yeah take him over and lead him over and introduce him and it was like that whole
1:54:53
thing was like almost as I think about it now it's almost like a slow-mo play I
1:54:59
Can Read revisit that and it was such it impacted me profoundly as well as you
1:55:06
hit the floor you know you just hit the floor and and coming undone there and
1:55:11
like I was coming it was a powerful powerful moment uh
1:55:18
enveloped with the infused with the power of God in in that moment and who
1:55:26
you can't help but be wrecked basically and that was a powerful moment for me as
1:55:32
as well as for you it was so so I'm so I feel privileged to have that
1:55:39
moment with you mm-hmm yeah and then having you come up here for Christmas yes and um I remember I
1:55:47
don't even know how many times throughout the course of the time you were here you kept grabbing your head and saying too much goodness too much
1:55:55
goodness you couldn't process what you were experiencing
1:56:01
um but you know when you see somebody encountering the the reality of the
1:56:07
bigness and the love of the father and you see them like trying to even process
1:56:12
and like their physical body can't even handle what they're experiencing it does
1:56:17
something to you too you know it's like a it refreshes our own faith to see that
1:56:22
kind of a thing and uh what a a joy watching your journey and um I remember
1:56:29
you bringing up the thing about traveling and you had this in your heart uh to do this traveling and so Katie and
1:56:35
I as moms we're like well why wouldn't you do it like blessing you to go and explore and to live this stream not
1:56:44
knowing it was going to be this five-year journey into every possible spiritual
1:56:52
experience and Katie and I have talked about this I had a lot of oh God oh God moments reading your Facebook post and
1:56:59
Katie said she's just had a lot of faith I did I I had the Assurance I mean it
1:57:04
wasn't like I was happy you were you know I was like oh yeah he's gonna try that it was like no I just had this
1:57:11
assurance that that uh Jesus was with you and that he he wasn't gonna
1:57:19
let you go yeah that he was covering you somehow he was protecting you and I was
1:57:25
like I just have that faith and that Assurance even though it's like I'd squirm a little bit he's doing this okay
1:57:31
no no he's God's got this yeah yeah I remember you you uh telling the story
1:57:38
about I think you might have messaged just about it you were in I think it was Australia and you were in some town that
1:57:45
was known for its new age offerings Iron Bay maybe okay you're walking down the
1:57:50
street and there was a sign on the street prayer or it was something like that yes the prayer room yeah yeah yeah
1:57:56
and when you share that story it's like okay okay God's got it God's got it he's
1:58:01
okay yeah thank you for reminding me about that yeah there was Byron Bay is like it's like Sedona or Bali or Goa or
1:58:09
something like that and then I walked it I remember there was a prayer sign I don't even remember I remember what the denomination was or what it said but I
1:58:15
did go I did did go in there and you guys were with me like I was messaging you regularly you know on on Facebook
1:58:20
the four of you like we were adding chatting regularly yeah good and then
1:58:25
and then all of a sudden we get this message I've traveled the world and experienced all this and come to the realization
1:58:32
that Jesus is the truth it was like yeah yeah he stressed us
1:58:41
oh I mean my faith went through that just watching what you'd been through
1:58:46
and God just guiding you through it all really incredible well you know I
1:58:51
probably haven't told you this part of the story Rob but this is the part that you play into is you know so I met you
1:58:57
guys on the Playa and it was it was that moment with Larry that I was really stuck on was like I was I was projecting
1:59:03
he had some judgments towards me and it was just strictly coming out of me but I was like I'm not going to be able to get
1:59:09
past this and so it was a real maybe a 10 or 15 minute period where it's like okay this is in my heart I'm either gonna say it or not it's either gonna
1:59:15
stop either I'm gonna either I'm gonna give in to it and stop and leave or I'm gonna speak it and so I spoke it right
1:59:21
and that was a profoundly healing go ahead yeah let me just interject because I just reframed that here in this again
1:59:28
and that was a masterful cooperation with
1:59:34
Holy Spirit on your part because you brought something to the light most people go oh I don't want to
1:59:41
bring that I want to bring that up but you were honest you just brought it to the light you weren't vindictive or you know didn't have an edge you just
1:59:47
brought it to the light and that gave Larry um that opening to say oh no this is my
1:59:55
heart let me let me put you at these so two bits of light coming together you
2:00:01
know and if only we all would do that more in our daily lives more more
2:00:08
problems that get resolved like I'll give you a chance to speak now you know I'm struggling with this judgment I'm
2:00:15
not sure if it's right or wrong please speak yeah well that was the thing is I had to get my get my hands around but
2:00:21
there's a picture forming by the way of like how um how I guess providential it is that it's
2:00:28
was the four of you on the call today and then I wish Larry could be here but you know I'll speak I'll send him a message and we're done but like you know
2:00:35
uh but Larry had such an important role to play all four of you did but Larry's role because I'm sitting there for 15
2:00:40
minutes like struggling with us how am I going to express this and I'm having to separate like I'm having this projection
2:00:47
moment I'm not aware that it's a projection like am I actually feeling something and so I'm wrestling with it
2:00:53
like okay I've got to separate myself from it and find the right way to speak it in a way that isn't confrontational
2:00:58
or it's like okay I just need to check this out real quick like getting my hands around it like that to say you
2:01:04
know because I had announced that I wanted to travel and that I wanted to travel the world and what I was experiencing
2:01:11
um uh was that like he was judging me for that like oh who's this kid to do this privileged kid or whatever
2:01:17
something like that and that was that it was my own voice but I couldn't hear that it was my own voice I was projecting it onto him and so that I had
2:01:23
to take that out and be able to get it to the point where it's like okay this thing is happening I need to check out whether it's real or not and what I was
2:01:30
actually scared of was him be like yeah it's real it's like I don't know that was the fear right yeah right yeah right
2:01:37
but to be able to but to be like and I'll never forget the way that he said like no I don't feel that way at all I'm
2:01:44
happy and excited for you I was like really right well you know the people
2:01:49
who are listening to this podcast they know me in a certain way now but I was not always this guy like I remember I
2:01:55
had had this dream in my heart to travel for 15 years by the by the time that I met you guys almost 16 years and I had
2:02:02
to ask you guys for permission I had to ask total strangers for permission to to fulfill my own dreams and you guys I
2:02:09
remember Barbara I think you and Katie you guys looked at me like you don't need to ask us for permission but I still needed to ask right and the I and
2:02:16
that's completely alien to the way that I am now but that's the guy that I was back then because I was carrying this
2:02:22
internalized judgment that I needed to be able to get out into the space between me and Larry and then also Barb
2:02:27
you and me like the stuff that I had around mother and stuff like that to be able to separate that because I remember
2:02:33
you saying so meaningfully like no it's my job as a mom to let my son go like
2:02:38
I'm not supposed to hold him here forever like of course it breaks my heart of course it hurts to send him out
2:02:44
in the world but that's still what I have to do as a mother and that was not my experience of mothering at all and
2:02:50
that you had my mom's name Barbara that you offered that experience that was like what like that's what a mother is
2:02:57
you know and so on the same so you had a piece of it and Larry had a piece of it as well yeah thank you for sharing that well
2:03:05
that's uh that uh that fills it out
2:03:10
we knew some of that but you filled it out now even more and and thank you for
2:03:16
doing that you're welcome thank you I mean it was the space that the three of you created yeah because I was hungry
2:03:23
for it but while you're while you're doing the healing work with me I'm also testing you because I've done so much
2:03:29
healing stuff work do these people know what they're doing you know what I mean like they know what they're doing okay let's let's you know and there was a
2:03:36
point at which the ball just starts rolling downhill you know when the really deep stuff around mother and
2:03:41
father starts coming out you know that really liberated me to be like oh wow you mean like I can leave leave the
2:03:48
mother energy and go be myself and travel the world and and I can depart from this father energy and like no it's
2:03:54
okay and free myself like that was very powerful for me but there's no way that you guys would have known what was going
2:04:00
on behind my eyes yeah yeah yeah yeah and just really just the piece that you
2:04:06
had Rob is that um I've got it excuse me one second
2:04:16
oh yeah yeah yeah yeah because when I got back from my travels
2:04:22
the day I got back December February 2020. the day I got back you had shipped
2:04:29
this to my friend Jeff and I arrived into San Francisco
2:04:34
and he uh to stay with him for a couple nights and pick up my stuff and move to Phoenix the day I got back he put this
2:04:41
book into my hands simply Christian by NT writing which you had sent to me right and so now looking back I
2:04:47
understand that I met Christ on the Playa through you guys with you guys and he sent me on
2:04:54
this adventure to go and do all the things Ayahuasca you know the kumala Hindu
2:05:02
festival vipassana meditation all this different New Age stuff and medicines to go experience it all and to go do all
2:05:09
these things and when I got back Christ was waiting for me yes
2:05:14
because you sent me this Rob as a gift yeah yeah
2:05:19
thank you it was it was God's timing you know and you know another wrinkle to
2:05:25
that is uh you'd had so much experiences even including ours on the planet
2:05:33
um you needed some teaching yeah which is valid Jesus sat and taught so many times in the Bible he didn't just preach
2:05:39
or do Miracles he taught them principles of the Kingdom so so God has that for us
2:05:45
and I think that was your timing like you were ready yeah you're ready to be taught
2:05:53
old Chinese proverb when the student is ready the teacher will come you know
2:06:00
but God sent a book your way he sent a lot of blessings my way
2:06:06
yeah I'm like in tears here just um marveling that we
2:06:13
get to enjoy and see and and Marvel at
2:06:20
this transformation the you know you're not just your transformation all of us but as we're been recounting uh for the
2:06:29
last hour and a half or whatever it just is so wonderful
2:06:35
how God Works things out because he says my ways
2:06:41
are not your ways your ways are not my ways and I and so hearing all of this
2:06:47
and and hearing more and more you filling out your own story
2:06:53
um I just I just can't help but fall more in love with God he's so I love his
2:07:00
intricacies and his his creativity and just how cool he is amen
2:07:07
one other little piece of that real quick okay so the cover of this book simply Christian this
2:07:14
is caprianga which is the northernmost point of New Zealand which is which is a very special place
2:07:21
to me for my travels New Zealand and this place so when I got back having moved here from New Zealand
2:07:28
uh this book put in my hands from you rob as again I get chills that's amazing
2:07:37
yeah wow that's incredible yeah
2:07:44
oh God yeah he's good than previously thought
2:07:50
yeah right yeah oh we make him so small yeah this keeps getting bigger yeah
2:07:56
answering again God do you see me of course I do yeah yeah
2:08:02
well thank you all so much this has been a real blessing of a conversation after after many years of blessings of uh
2:08:09
friendship and fellowship with you guys thank you so much yeah you're welcome to have the conversation with you and yeah
2:08:15
relive the moments yeah don't be a stranger come back up here yeah or maybe
2:08:20
we'll get down there we'll see yeah yeah anytime and I I definitely have some people that I want to come visit up
2:08:26
there in Idaho as well yeah do you uh are there any place that
2:08:31
um that you send people for more information about you and or streams Ministries or any of the things that you
2:08:37
do online and know that you are doing dream interpretation online for a while wow that was more a factor of covid
2:08:44
um most of the work we do is pretty local um yeah Spirit drink Facebook we do have a
2:08:51
Facebook page where we put stuff in I mean it's just really for like our local dream interpretation Ministry that we do
2:08:58
um um yeah Spirit dream North Idaho yeah I
2:09:04
mean if somebody wanted to get in touch with us that would be the way because we do monitor that page so Spirit dream
2:09:09
North Idaho on Facebook we don't mind questions yeah put kindly yeah
2:09:15
Pearl calls everything remember yeah that's right yeah yeah I mean your your
2:09:20
everyday everyday people like there's no you know great magic to it in that way
2:09:25
it's like you're you're people who took on a a pretty brave and pretty bold calling to go uh right into the heart of
2:09:31
some pretty difficult and Dark Places and uh that's you know but that doesn't mean there's any greatness it's just
2:09:37
it's the it's the small things that confound the big things right yeah act
2:09:42
the privilege of getting to be part of what God's doing thank you all so much yeah thank you
2:09:52
we love you in person yeah I love you guys too love you
Transcript
0:00
there were definitely times when I was involved in encounters and then releasing them back out to the
0:06
defilement of the Playa was heart-wrenching because you don't know what they're going to choose but it
0:13
wasn't our job is we just made the deposit that we were able to make and came into God's hands
0:26
hey and thank you for joining me for my very special two-year anniversary episode it's been an amazing year with
0:32
some of my biggest guests ever including Pastor Doug Wilson laser huddle and
0:37
feminine not feminist thank you so much for being a part of it but this episode is really special it's sort of a dream
0:44
come true because my guests this week aren't famous authors pastors or content
0:49
creators they're everyday people but ones who have had an incredible impact on my life their names are Rob Katie
0:56
Barb and Andrea and they're from Camp Spirit dream who introduced me to Christ at Burning Man so please enjoy this very
1:03
special two-year anniversary episode and once again thank you so much for being part of the Renaissance of men Katie Rob
1:11
Barb and Andrea from spiritream thanks so much for joining me on the podcast thanks for having us thanks for having
1:16
us uh you know I you guys have made such a huge difference in my life and I think everyone who listens to
1:23
um listens to the podcast listen to my podcast and has heard me on other podcasts has heard me tell the story of
1:28
how I met you at Burning Man and the impact you've had on my life so I'm really grateful that you're taking the time to talk with me today and to share
1:34
some of the stories um share some of the stories in the background that even I don't know
1:40
we're glad to be here yeah so let's let's start by um by allowing
1:46
you guys to introduce yourself so maybe Katie we'll start with you and we'll just go go across and you can share as
1:51
much about yourself and your story as you as you'd like to and then we'll get to the camp and and and all that
1:58
yes my name is Katie Mazza and I'm married to Rob here and I went to Burning Man for seven years
2:05
starting in 2011 ending in 2017 and at
2:10
was life-changing for me to say the least and a privilege to go
2:15
awesome can you share a little bit about your testimony maybe if you guys would be willing to do that
2:22
yes um you don't have to if yes no that's fine it would be a little long yeah just
2:28
suggesting okay yeah that's true I know I know a couple I will say this though I Rob started going to burning man before
2:36
I did and I had some I wanted to go I was in full support of it but I did not
2:43
have a release to go until 2011 because I needed to face some issues in my own
2:52
life that would have hindered my
2:58
ability to function in the team the way I needed to as well as to give to the
3:05
people that came to see us is in the way that would be beneficial
3:10
yeah see that's that's there's a pretty amazing Insight right there like we have to be spiritually prepared to go out to
3:16
to do ministry like that which is so thank you for that yeah Rob and my name is Rob masla and I
3:26
am married to this lovely woman and I think what I'd I like to say I guess I
3:32
was the original part of the original Seven that went by invitation of an
3:40
intercessory group um from um
3:45
oh the Midwest yeah International House of Prayer Mike bickles grew
3:52
and so their job was just to pray and then they they found out about us and
3:57
basically extended an invitation to a bunch of crazy people that would do dream interpretation or spiritual
4:04
encounters or whatever so seven of us went in and the earlier early years that
4:10
would be starting 2004 and uh yeah those were the uh plowing
4:16
and strange and difficult soil years trying to figure out the culture and having the culture figure out us
4:24
and I'm I'm really happy to say God came through and we're all in one piece
4:30
yeah I'm very happy to I'm very happy to see that too yeah I had some close calls
4:35
but we made it yeah yeah I would like to hear about some of those but yeah yeah Barb go ahead yep my name is Barb Owens
4:43
and I'm actually I was the the newest to the it's my first year was 2012. and um
4:50
Andrea and another friend of ours had extended an invitation for me to be on
4:55
the team by the time I came around there were some real um good protocols in place for who was allowed to go out with
5:02
the team and just kind of a screening process to make sure that the people who went out there would do well and not get
5:08
chewed up and spit out by what was happening out there so Andrea was actually my sponsor and um I had a lot
5:16
of great reasons why it wasn't the right year for me to go and then God got a hold of me and really dealt with the
5:21
real issues which was lack of faith um and I remember one of my favorite things I remember telling Rob like I I
5:28
feel like you know what have I have to offer out there and I remember him saying I find the soccer moms do really
5:33
well out there and I'm like I can do that I can go out there and be a mom and love on the people that God brings into
5:39
our camp so that was kind of what it looked like and I actually went for six years
5:44
um we all actually retired in 2017 it was the same year that we all felt the nudge that it was our last time going
5:51
out there yeah well was that the year that the man ran into the fire did you hear us hear about that it was it wasn't
5:57
saying here it was it was wow but you guys always left on you guys always packed up and we're out by Saturday like
6:03
you didn't stick around for the burn yeah yeah right yeah one of the things they learned in the early years was that
6:09
uh by the time it got to that point we were done yeah our team was done with what we were
6:14
there for yeah and I think it's really important that you said that there were protocols in place that you know there
6:20
were processes and there's a formal structure it wasn't like you were just going out there to hang out and maybe do some Ministry work like it was it was a
6:27
it's a whole thing I don't want to say it was like a business because it wasn't business like in a commercial sense but
6:32
it was a like there was formal processes in place for your for your benefit to
6:37
run the camp and everything was a very serious thing yeah that's true yeah for our protection yeah exactly in spite of
6:45
our jovial appearance there was we were serious as a heart attack yeah yeah and
6:50
I think that came across Andrea yeah my name's Andrea berather and I
6:58
started in 2007 went for about 10 years my story is a little different than
7:03
Katie's I um had never done anything like that before ever in my life and I
7:09
grew up in church so I was in like church world and Mommy world when I got
7:14
invited to go and God made it clear that I was supposed to go but it felt like being
7:20
thrown in the deep end of the pool and I really wasn't prepared very well but I had to learn to swim really fast
7:26
and I went out you know very green and very scared and again I like Katie said
7:33
it was the most life-changing experience ministering out there yeah learned a lot yeah hands down
7:39
let's let's talk quickly about how the camp came together with the with the the Genesis of it was so to speak and then
7:46
I'm actually really curious about the sort of things like the chewing up and the spitting out and the processes and the learning like like because from my
7:52
perspective like I just go out to burning man you know in a Secular Progressive new age kind of world where it's like oh Burning Man is a great time
7:59
but that was the last time I was there but I would imagine going in with a completely different worldview there's a
8:04
completely different means of preparation that would be I would have to think about that now actually but I'm
8:10
interested to hear your side what it's like going um into quite dangerous territory so
8:15
let's talk about the origins of the camp and then we'll get into what it was actually like for you guys going there personally and collectively
8:21
yeah so um 2004 as I said uh John Paul Jackson
8:28
kind of our our mentor of sorts had this idea that he should send a team in there
8:35
from streams Ministries I'm part of and we were all a part of streams Ministries so we had this wild idea that he should
8:43
throw a bunch of us into burning man and we all looked at one another and said
8:49
but there's crazy naked people you know what are we gonna do you know confirm
8:54
but anyways we acquiesce because there was no way of saying no to John Paul he's he was a nice guy but when when he
9:03
saw something on the horizon you would go for it and we would just emulate that so we ended up going and we you know we
9:11
had we had a background in um what we call prophetic evangelism it was a
9:17
pioneering idea where we would go on the streets and look at people and just ask
9:23
God for an impression a download on who they are where they were going or
9:29
something and we would just basically say something like when I look at you I
9:34
see and that's how we made conversations on the streets and then we started going to New Age fairs and
9:42
um a few other events but Burning Man was a total immersion it wasn't like you
9:48
can go home or go in into a hotel room and decompress you have to live
9:54
and interact for a whole week so that was a game changer and Christianity was
10:01
definitely in the low low low minority numbers there yeah
10:06
um if at all in some in some cases so so there we were and the first year was
10:12
difficult because people were they were it seemed like
10:17
um they were testing us like some people wouldn't come out of character some
10:23
people would you know we'd say do you have a dream we could interpret and then they'd tell us a pornographic dream and
10:29
it was just this trying to figure out this sort of
10:35
testing thing and I remember complaining to the Lord about it and he goes actually I was
10:40
testing you the first two years to see if you would if
10:46
um you would understand the culture and work with me to find the keys of loving
10:55
them and working with them so that was an eye-opener for me like it wasn't just
11:02
blaming a bunch of crazy people stressing us out it's far different was
11:07
God's plan to get us in the mode of really listening and hearing with our
11:13
heart both them and the god that we had to lean on every stinking moment we were
11:20
there so that that was the big takeaway and um
11:26
but you know there were bright spots that even though we were the first two years were kind of like what was that
11:33
we would have these encounters and here's one I'll I'll just share one there was yeah a woman I was working
11:40
with and I I think I gave her an encouraging word something to do with her makeup how God understood her makeup
11:48
and her composition as a being yeah yeah yeah
11:54
and burning man you never know the difference people are made up there yeah exactly but we're not making this up
12:01
anyway so so we're going so uh
12:06
she kind of looks at me like well that's all well good but then she just goes for the you know she just goes for the the
12:14
artery and she just bakes these looks at me and she says how come you Christians just think you can speak at scripture
12:21
and it's supposed to change us and I'm going oh my God here we are ground zero
12:27
and and you know what what they really wanted was an encounter with Jesus
12:32
living in us look in our eyes and see Jesus kind of thing and we didn't fully
12:39
realize that to to the degree we do now but what I ended up saying to her is I
12:45
need to apologize to you I said to her I said I need to apologize
12:52
um for on behalf of the church for judging you in what we deem is your strange
12:59
appearance or strange behavior and we've missed your hunger
13:04
God never misses your hunger and I kind of lived off that little
13:12
experience for quite a while as a a ground zero feeling in those early years
13:19
is not to miss the hunger of the culture spite of their weird acting out or
13:25
whatever weird channels they might get in for spirituality it didn't matter
13:30
God was concerned about this hunger that he put in the human heart [Music]
13:36
that they were seeking to fill at that Festival but with um not the right food let's say yeah
13:42
exactly just like you yeah right absolutely it was one of the things that impressed me really early on in one of
13:50
my early years was how someone could come in and um they'd obviously been
13:55
pursuing in dark streams and yet there was this almost like clean feeling on
14:00
them and it was what I came to recognize was a genuine hunger for truth and they
14:05
were looking in places where they weren't finding it um but the the purity of the pursuit was
14:11
there and it was obvious when we'd meet people like that it didn't matter what they looked like on the outside we could
14:18
tell that there was something really genuine and true there now did you announce early on that you
14:23
were Christians or advertised at all or it just kind of came out naturally in conversation
14:29
no we we you know you know if you look back in
14:35
the Bible um it's it's kind of like Jesus wouldn't admit he wouldn't fess up that he was
14:42
the son of God you know he wouldn't fess up to all the attributes that he carried
14:47
you know it's it's just you know certain instances he would reveal something and
14:53
then you know that that famous line he said that Peter answered because who do you say I am he says to his own
14:59
disciples so a lot of ways we let them figure out by the presence we carried the peace
15:08
that was in the tent the light and they would verbalize these things they would
15:13
come and come to the entrance of our tent and say there's so much light here
15:18
but there's so much Spirit here or so much peace here how do you do that
15:25
and talk about you know a conversation opener for us to work with them and as rich
15:32
sort of a taste and see approach because we we understand that people in the
15:39
culture come pre-loaded with a whole lot of ideas and judgments about Christians and who they are yeah so you don't you
15:47
don't you don't want to come straight out with that and and hit that wall with people so we're a taste and see you know
15:54
we let them taste of what we had and let the Holy Spirit decide when it was time to reveal who we really were
16:02
yeah yeah I think the Apostle Paul said it well in Acts
16:08
26 17. he was talking to Agrippa a pagan
16:13
King and he's he's given a defense sort of sort of to save his life maybe a defense
16:19
of who he was what he was doing and basically he said uh let me tell you my story
16:25
and it so he tells him the story how a a great light came it was knocked to the
16:31
ground and then a voice came and it was Jesus and Jesus says why are you
16:37
persecuting me but but then Jesus gives him a commission and he says I'm sending you to the Gentiles and I think this is
16:45
what we've embraced to do this to open their eyes
16:50
and then to turn them from Darkness delay
16:56
right open there so it's as Andrew is saying we're doing eye-opening things
17:03
and it's different according you know each person is a little different right
17:08
yeah yeah I don't think a message of sin and repentance would go over so well at
17:14
Burning Man right but I mean but but the message of love because I remember being in the camp and I you may have heard me
17:20
say this or I may have said it to you guys I've definitely said it when speaking about the experiences you know I'm in this I'm in this I don't know
17:26
what the healing encounter with you guys for what three and a half hours something like that and while that's going on Barb and Katie you were there
17:32
I'm looking around the tent you know like trying to figure out who are these people because I didn't see any Buddhas
17:38
or vishnus or psychedelic art or anything like that which is pretty as you know pretty usual for burning man
17:44
you walk into someone's camp and you you get a sense like are they you know DMT you know drug trippies or are they you
17:51
know you know some sort of like new Eastern mysticism whatever and I didn't see any of that and that was really odd
17:56
for me because I couldn't quite triangulate who you guys were right and it was only that it was only the reveal
18:02
at the end wait what what are you doing here yeah and so that was a consciously
18:08
chosen I mean it would have to be right yeah yeah well it was a really beautiful thing too to see people experience who
18:14
Jesus really is yeah they have their misconceptions but to let them experience it firsthand uh it rocked
18:22
them and it would I know rock me and the encounters to watch them having this encounter for the first time with the
18:28
true Jesus with the true God who created them yeah and then of course I came up to
18:34
visit you guys for Christmas um a few months later thank you for hosting me by the way and um that visit
18:42
was probably as powerful as meeting you on the Playa because I got to see that
18:47
it wasn't just you just wear this out on the Playa for for work let's say it's like no you you live in this way that
18:53
I'd never encountered other Christians living especially in your interactions with each other and seeing your lives in
18:59
the way you treated me even off even off the Playa um we try
19:06
as it should be yeah yes as it should be yeah I agree I agree so so
19:12
um how did the camp then from its early days start to grow and and when did you
19:17
get a sense like okay maybe we should be doing this for more than a couple years maybe we should start pulling together
19:23
people from across the country and make it into like a thing and what did it look like in those early early days like
19:29
if there was just seven of you you probably didn't have a big a big tent all set up or maybe you did I don't know
19:34
what it what did it actually look like and then how did it Grow from there we had those we had those chintzy pop-up
19:41
things you could buy for I don't know maybe a hundred dollars a pop and the
19:46
wind promptly bloomed shreds the first year but this figure this is where we
19:52
learned about Burning Man Community we were we were out we're we're a day camp so that meant we would Minister uh
20:01
just to the point of exhaustion during the day but at night we would go out and
20:06
look at the sights and the art and whatnot but the wind picked up ferocious winds and dust out there and we came
20:14
back and all our neighbors were holding our tent poles down and helping us and
20:21
you know the community is valued in prized there so you know we're taking notes all the time like these people are
20:28
serious about um their neighbors you know feeding one another or taking care of something so
20:36
so from there I think there wasn't a time that we said we're not coming back from
20:43
the first time even though it may have been some difficult testing there was enough to say there's there's promise
20:51
here there are people there are people worth coming back for so there was never a time we thought we were going to quit
20:58
um the next year I think it at least doubled more than doubled and then by
21:03
the third year it was up to maybe 27 members wow the first year it was
21:09
actually 50. 2007. seven so four five six fourth year
21:15
yeah it really went crazy but it was kind of like um we we have to play with how we would
21:24
bring in new people and we were a little fast and loose at time but then we
21:30
developed a protocol that you have to sponsor someone yeah someone would vouch
21:35
for the person they're bringing in and have some accountability yeah because it's yeah yeah you had to
21:43
have the measure of character um and the Heart the right heart and
21:51
um well yeah and that actually there wasn't there was
21:58
a little formal thing about taking the art of hearing God class from streams Ministry because that covered
22:05
character being more important than gifting and and character would also include we
22:13
would include it now maybe a little broader um a little broader umbrella of do they
22:20
love well do they understand honor that they understand protocol
22:25
so all those things were became very important to us so so this art of hearing God class is a
22:32
21-hour class that just hits all the raw spots about about our Humanity sometimes
22:40
go ahead and um going back to the beginning when Rob went that first year the first couple of
22:46
years as he had said the IHOP people had invited the team to
22:53
join them and at that time that team just handed out water bottles and back
22:59
then it was bottles of water to pastors by and and would you know mostly do that
23:05
and then these guys show up and the scene begins to change the whole thing begins to
23:11
change and and those people then handed it over to the spirit dream team and they no
23:20
longer participated in in a physical way and so from that it went to not just
23:28
handing out water but getting the encounter tent and then there was the
23:34
process of adding the coffee Dome and their story line in that as well but it
23:40
kind of evolved one you know piece by piece I totally forgot about the coffee Dome
23:49
it's like if if there are touch points the first point are the people that give out water and just talk to people and
23:56
then we have a coffee Dome where if you went in there there'd be a chill space there'd be people to you know there's
24:03
space to talk a little deeper or a quiet a quiet space yeah and enjoy your coffee
24:08
some people would spend all day in our coffee now and then kind of the deep end
24:13
would be the encounter can a 90-foot military tent where we would seat we would have maybe
24:21
10 groups of two or three of our team that would encounter people like such as
24:26
yourself as they came in let me do the screen share real quick and because you sent me some photos of
24:32
the encounter tent and I can pull that up right now and we can take a look for the people
24:38
for the people watching on YouTube they can actually see the encounter tent can
24:43
you guys see that yeah yeah that's that's the tent and you can I mean and like I was saying earlier you can kind
24:49
of look around and you know there's nothing you know what is that like a Galaxy or an eyeball painting or
24:55
something like that but there's nothing in there that's like there's nothing in there that's psychedelic or anything like that it was very
25:01
um it was very uh very plain I guess you would say by contrast but like it
25:07
doesn't that doesn't mean it was ordinary in any way and so I just I think I'm not sure which end of the tent
25:12
I was at but I remember being at one end of the tent Yeah by about that time our our Decor
25:18
was becoming early Ezekiel okay so there's there's probably a bunch
25:24
of things that you're gonna have to unpack for a lot of people listening including me so let's maybe let's unpack John Paul Jackson's dreams Ministries
25:29
and art of hearing God and then early let's not unpack these things just because there's this context that I
25:35
think a lot of listeners even if they're Christians won't really have a lot of context for like who is John Paul Jackson's what is Jackson what is
25:42
streams Ministry what did he think about what you were doing in the whole thing so let's maybe back up for a second and talk about that
25:50
where to begin right yeah where to begin well John Paul is now passed away but um
25:58
streams Ministry lives on with a a new man in charge uh John Thomas but
26:06
um so John John Paul was a teacher and what we would call a revelatory minister you
26:13
know he operated in the gift of the prophetic and in in my opinion he was
26:18
um uh one of the more principled and a man who who walked in character which is why
26:26
personally my eye was attracted to him there was nothing flighty about it and he could unpack
26:33
um the meanings of what it is to live a prophetic lifestyle or just that everybody has gifts you just gotta
26:41
realize everyone has gifts they're given from God and but they need to be developed and they need to be developed
26:47
alongside character that was his biggest message and he would you know he would say that over
26:53
and over again so it's it's still alive today where I
26:58
still teaches teach those courses there are streams teachers that teach the courses understanding dreams and Visions
27:05
is another um very popular and needed course because all of humanity gets Dreams yeah
27:12
and there are few people that could interpret it with a hebraic or a
27:17
Biblical background and so we teach that yeah there's possible to do that it's it's a long
27:25
learning curve but it's worth pursuing yeah that was one of the things that um
27:31
that I think initially attracted me to going through your uh tent is because I had done dream
27:38
interpretation on my own after just a little bit of training in Jung Yan style dream interpretation like 15 years
27:44
earlier so when I came out with the Playa and the guy that I met said oh I just came from Spirit dream they do dream interpretation and healing I'm
27:50
like I probably was dream interpretation that hooked me that was like that was something I could kind of understand like oh that sounds cool I'll go check
27:56
that out yeah yeah please
28:04
well that was kind of your domain up front well yeah okay I don't want to do
28:09
all the talking but but we did we had a sandwich board it was kind of like you
28:15
know I had this idea like well we're like a um spiritual Cafe so we need a
28:21
menu board so they can see what they want and and it was just a kind of a cheap way to hook people
28:27
but but it works you know we had dream interpretation we had um encouraging encouraging words we had
28:35
healing I you know help me Healing Touch Healing Touch Destiny Direction okay Destiny
28:41
Direction and then we had spiritual encounter which became such a popular
28:47
one we started calling it free fall uh we thought of metaphors for everything
28:53
but essentially they're real spiritual experiences that we could back up in the
28:58
Bible but we didn't want to use religious language yes so and we know the culture is hardwired
29:06
for healing inner healing physical healing all kinds of stuff so
29:12
you know the combination of we well let me back up we know that the human Spirit
29:18
we all have a human spirit and it's hardwired to look for God in some measure you know
29:26
pre-salvation it's it's kind of dim but it's still looking because he put eternity in the heart of man
29:33
eternity is not a Earthly component that has to come from God so we know that people have their radar up and and so
29:41
they're comparing our methodologies of healing or
29:46
encouragement to theirs and the kind of ambiance the light
29:51
around us the feel the atmosphere the peace and that that's what worked you know
29:58
they might have re they might read the menu board but then they're in the door and they're gone oh wow
30:05
how do you guys do that I have this question like right off the bat they'd walk through the threshold and they go
30:11
how do you guys do this you know yeah and I go well let's sit down
30:19
yeah I've struggled to because I I would tell people you know the whole story in various levels of detail where I showed
30:25
up at the at the tent that my the guy had directed me to at my camp and
30:31
struggling to remember what was actually written on the menu board because I I want to say things that because I don't
30:37
remember exactly what was written there but I I want to say things that were
30:42
they were interesting to me but the language wasn't of any sort of like identifiable New Age Eastern mysticism
30:49
kind of thing right there was something about it's like I recognize the intention Behind these things even if I
30:56
don't know what any of the practices are besides you know like free fall like if I walked up with a free fall that sounds
31:01
cool or dream interpretation I know but anything else like that's that's I think the skill that you guys had developed is
31:09
how to speak in a language that the culture understands but that isn't the culture's language
31:15
and that's that's very difficult to do we're writing that one down yeah
31:21
I like that yeah and and the truth was so the way the the encounter tent was set up the reason I said that was Rob's
31:27
domain is because we had a waiting area at one end of the tent so because we had
31:32
a line every day of people wanting encounters and we could only do so many before we take a break for lunch and
31:38
then we'd have a window of time after lunch before dinner where we could only do so many so Rob and our other leader
31:45
Darren were in the waiting area greeting people when they came in and they had the menu board there so they would sit
31:51
with them and they'd say you know what looks appealing and the whole time they were kind of pinging in the spirit which
31:58
of the 10 encounter teams will this person fit with where is God directing
32:03
me to seat them so like for your encounter well I remember you saying you were sitting there waiting and kind of
32:09
talking to them and you were looking at the teams which one you thought you might see sit with and you told us you
32:15
saw our team as Katie and I and then a man named Larry and you thought oh I don't want to be seated with that team
32:20
is the exact team you got seated with I know yeah yeah so uh that was kind of so
32:26
they would kind of being worried the person belong and then bring the person the burner back and introduce them to
32:31
the team members and it's always kind of funny to me because we had our menu board and they would always say this is
32:37
so and so they'd make the introductions and they're here for Destiny Direction which we would you know take note of but
32:44
the fact is is that uh Holy Spirit guided every encounter we didn't really know where any of them were going to go
32:50
I mean we flew by the seat of our pants with every encounter because we didn't know what really the person was bringing
32:56
what they really needed but God knew every time and we learned to just flow with whatever was happening in the
33:03
spirit well we had to be open to the creativity of God because there were things that he
33:10
would download do this and we're like do what he would take us all on an
33:15
adventure yeah and we'd have to figure it out later what just happened oh yeah because he's very creative in how he reached people yeah yeah I had one
33:23
encounter my my newbie year where Andrea was the team lead and I was on a team and I won't do all the details of the
33:29
encounter but this she was doing this encounter with this woman and I'm watching and I was
33:35
super impressed because I'm a newbie and I'm just taking it all in right and Andrea just navigates this whole thing
33:40
with this gal and the gal gets this you know incredible experience and when she leaves at the end Andrea looks at me and
33:47
the other guy on the team she said well that was different and that's why that was the weirdest encounter okay and I
33:52
said you've never done that before no but she just flowed with it so beautifully I'm like wow you know take
33:58
notes Barb Andre knows how to do this and I need to know how to do it too but yeah yeah it was amazing something that
34:05
you said um the way you said that about the language thing it prompted a memory of
34:11
an encounter that I had maybe second or third year that I went and I was in
34:18
although at the latter years that I went I hung out mostly in the dome but with
34:25
you that time I was in the encounter tip thankfully but um
34:30
so I was in the encounter tent and two two different days uh two different
34:37
teams I would with two different teams and two women were brought you know one woman one day and or that morning and
34:45
one in the afternoon and it was so interesting because each of those gals
34:52
had had abortions and I had had that experience out of the
34:58
whole team the leaders you know prompted by the Holy Spirit brought those gals to the
35:06
team that I was on and and holy spirit gave me language
35:11
to be able to talk to them about principles
35:16
because they were born in an age and an era where this was natural and why did
35:23
if it was so not natural and accepted and the way to do life
35:29
then why did they feel so crappy afterwards after having an abortion what
35:34
why did things shift and their lives kind of fall apart well
35:40
as I said you know Holy Spirit gave me language that they could understand and
35:46
relate to using principles about the Creator and even though man's ways are
35:53
this creators ways are not and and creators ways and principles overrule
36:03
man's ways and so the things that we feel sometimes when we violate the
36:09
principles of the Creator impact us greatly and they they could really
36:15
uh register with that and it opened the doors for them to get some relief and
36:23
some cleansing and some healing I think that's one of the things that that uh you guys did so masterfully is
36:31
you provided that you provided real healing and relief and release and you
36:36
know I have that I have that painting Andrea that you made of Rob hugging that girl it's around here somewhere I don't
36:41
have a digital version but um maybe it'll maybe it'll pop up on my desk somewhere but you know that that you
36:47
came out and you actually offered that and you as you had said earlier Rob about Barb coming like soccer moms do
36:52
really well out there like that was Barb that was exactly what I needed you know even down to the point that like I
36:57
didn't have the soccer mom experience with my mom as we've talked about but you know my mom's name was also Barbara
37:02
and so that was no coincidences there of being able to receive and that was a
37:08
powerful aspect for me it was being able to see an image of the mother that I didn't have right and and be like wait
37:15
this is a thing right and and to the point where you I could see in my own
37:20
life God's hand at work putting me right where I needed to be in the same way these girls with you Katie
37:26
you know had what they needed to to be able to talk with you from a position where you could relate to their
37:31
experience and communicate truth in a way no one else really could yeah it's a
37:36
beautiful thing yeah so um so as people would how did this
37:42
process this protocol kind of develop like with Sandwich Board and you know obviously you would have had to learn on
37:49
the go about how this is all going to work getting a sense of like well we should just trust ourselves trust the
37:54
spirit to guide us in the right way flying by the seat of your pants and these healing encounters and not going
38:00
by any set playback set Playbook that all that all developed over the years I'm guessing yeah yeah it did I mean
38:08
Andrea brought up the word creativity how creative God is and I I think we're
38:14
more dialed into Heaven is an extremely creative Innovative place and there's things we
38:21
haven't even near tapped into and but we were being in an extreme environment and
38:28
basically our go-to prayer was help God we we get ideas I mean we would just get
38:36
ideas and try them and and also it was a community United in this Quest I can't
38:43
say enough about that that while we had leadership and sub leaders
38:49
I mean it was an open dialogue of ideas so anybody could have
38:55
an idea and we'd go yeah that sounds like it has weight on it let's try it you know so I don't know maybe I came up
39:02
with a menu but I think I did I think I had this sandwich board idea but you know there's so many details to doing
39:11
um this kind of Outreach and everything became an art form the serving of food
39:17
and inviting of guests and who to invite and um the kind of music we chose Katie
39:24
would come up with a playlist every year of um basically kind of secular songs there
39:31
were that were edging into values that we we appreciated you know what I mean
39:36
and then we could we can work with that you know so when you open yourself up to
39:42
the creativity of God and doing things differently one idea leads all of a sudden you have two ideas and then those
39:48
two ideas you have four ideas and you have those four ideas and you have eight ideas and it just mushrooms and there's
39:55
it's just Limitless the creativity and the ideas that can come and then when
40:01
you open that sphere up for God to do whatever he wants to do on that platform of creativity it's it's
40:08
blind mind-blowing yeah there were there were times when we would have the nudge
40:13
to do something in an encounter that we didn't have the theology for but we knew it was the spirit telling us but every
40:20
time we'd go back to scripture because that was always our Plumb line and we'd find the principle uh because it's it
40:27
was not about going outside of the the lines to the point where you're violating principle God's principles
40:32
ever um but there were definitely Times by the spirit when um we knew what we were
40:38
to to do and then we would have conversations later hey this happened somebody helped me unpack this and that
40:44
was part of the value of team is having the spiritual insight to be able to bounce off of each other and make sure
40:51
that we were staying in lined up with God's principles and I think that's really important and
40:56
I'm grateful to hear you say that because I know from uh I know from the
41:01
encounter meeting you guys and getting to spend a lot of time with you guys in
41:06
in Idaho and getting to know you personally but I've never really asked too many questions about the protocols
41:12
and practices and and the discipline that's involved to do something like that and still hold to your principles
41:18
still hold to your your your personal Integrity not any of you would ever lose that but you're being pulled in all
41:24
these different energetic directions if nothing else and if only by the overall feeling of the event I mean I and I've
41:31
been unable to speak to the amount of discipline that must have gone on behind the scenes to support you collectively
41:37
and individually in the conduct of that and maybe you can speak into some of those things because you know it's like
41:43
deep sea diving like you don't just go swimming down there like you have to build if it's suits and you know
41:48
underwater whatever maybe you can speak to that a little bit yeah um well let's talk about
41:55
um one thing that became a bit Central to what we did was a father or a mother blessing
42:02
um and it's something I I was doing quite a bit before I would stand in place for
42:10
the absent father or the abusive father and sometimes apologize and or sometimes
42:17
you know just say um I'm you know I'm not actually your father but I believe I
42:23
understand father God enough to impart something to you so you have to be very
42:30
intimate with people well you know you have to hold them close and you have to deal in your mind
42:36
that that this physical intimacy is just a buy the buy I'm I'm looking to reach
42:42
their soul their broken soul and their Spirit that's just aching
42:47
to be validated by a simple I love you yeah I bless you
42:54
and to do that you have to be absolutely clear in your mind like
42:59
um no this is I'm not going into any even though that that physical proximity
43:04
Is there I'm not going to go into any fantasy you know yeah about this there
43:09
is one significant time I'll just tell a brief story it was near the end of the
43:15
week we would have what we call popcorn encounters that were very quick because we had such an overflow of people that
43:22
we couldn't get to during the week yeah so we'd have people hanging out on Friday going when is it my turn so we
43:28
herded them into the tent and we told our team you know pair up do 10 minutes
43:33
worth so so I'm kind of standing there watching kind of directing a little bit
43:39
but mostly just watching and the coming a couple of my teammates me it was you
43:45
that's right that's me yeah we I'll I'll give the background and then you take your side of it so I was teamed up with
43:51
one of our Swedish teammates Malin and this young man came to us and he said that um
43:58
he was he was struggling with whether or not he was homosexual but he said every time he had a homosexual encounter it
44:04
felt wrong but yet he was so drawn to men and right away we knew what he was looking for was a father it was he was
44:11
thinking he was homosexual but what he was wanting was a touch of a father so we said hey Rob and brought him over and
44:18
told Rob and then Rob took it from there and yeah so and so taking it from there
44:25
but I just throw a a just a little tidbit here you know Jesus came to reveal the father
44:32
because you know I mean he even placed himself under that to reveal the father
44:37
and so we take this really seriously that there must be a crying need in humanity
44:44
for her father and we we know that to be absolutely true now yeah so there I am
44:49
standing with a short man that's very sincere very broken and and you know basically are you ready for this I'm I
44:57
just give him a little Spiel I'm just gonna hold you like a dad and and speak this blessing and I and I bless them
45:03
from conception and because God's original design was not that they go
45:09
astray but they know his Spirit from the beginning you know so I I just take him
45:15
through kind of stages in life and bless them and and confirm love upon them and
45:21
and um bless their design and their Destiny bless theirs their bodies bless
45:28
their souls bless their Spirits the way God intended so somewhere in the middle of it I mean
45:35
this is where God really turned the tables on me I I do this almost with you know just by the by in a sense not that
45:42
I'm not involved but I I know how to control yeah it gets very emotional yeah
45:48
two of us sometimes but this one I totally God took me in this different
45:54
place of almost like as Ezekiel said I sat where they sat I understood his pain
46:01
to to such a degree I wept his tears well as weird as that sounds I might
46:07
miss cheers yeah while I'm holding them and then we and and I and I actually
46:13
have this strange thought while I'm there many streets that I'm like God this is crazy uh it gets crazier all the
46:20
time but you know we're just both Sinners yeah
46:26
being smiled upon by a god of great grace and great love
46:31
I have somehow merged with this massive Humanity that's broken
46:36
and uh still chokes me up with you today yeah yeah so you know and and then the Lord
46:44
just took me on a little prophetic Journey where he's telescoping out from here he goes this is the effects of this
46:50
kind of thing that people that Embrace this we will meet
46:55
the culture um just the way they are the way Jesus did
47:01
and I could see it telescoping out for Generations this is this is God's
47:06
way that's just some profound experience that painting's actually hanging on the
47:12
wall should I grab it yeah please yeah please yeah because I've got the I found I
47:19
don't have it on my desk anymore I actually put it up my wall behind me but it's your version will be much better than the than the card that that that uh
47:27
little printout that you gave me that went around the world with me by the way [Music]
47:33
oh it's so lovely so lovely yeah and that was this that was the spirit of
47:39
everything that you did right and that came across and what's and and you know Andrea
47:45
what's so beautiful about that painting that you capture is like is how um impersonal isn't the word but like it's
47:51
personal but it's it's trans person it's larger than personal what's going on there you know it's it's like it's she
47:58
is being embraced by something so much larger than Rob through Rob right and Rob as well and you really captured that
48:05
I don't know yeah yeah yeah and that that was uh that was a young lady from
48:11
um well I don't know she just came in the tent and her story was her dad passed away
48:18
when she's two years old and she had this vague memory of her dad and she just
48:27
it was an ache in her heart yeah it was feeling an ache in her heart and it really impacted her
48:34
um really impacted her to the point where we Center um
48:40
a copy of that print yeah and she showed it to her family and her family's been
48:46
praying for it you know this is whole family and they were like astounded at how God met her in a different sort of
48:54
way you know so I think I'll just add something else uh
49:03
germane to our encounters um Burning Man changed us
49:10
as much as it changed every single person that came in there oh yeah
49:17
absolutely oh yeah yeah we did not know uh God could be that big yeah or that
49:25
good yeah yeah or that creative or that anything named the blank that that fits
49:31
in with the characteristics of God we did not know yeah until we went over the edge and and said yes to this crazy
49:39
event yeah yeah and so to me God reveals himself uh you know Greater Grace the greater
49:46
level of areas of sin there's great grace available and but I think there's few of us I'll just address the
49:53
Christians and the audiences few of us that have this yes of I'll go there just my only parachute is God
50:01
you know yeah I remember you guys being I remember being told my first year that we didn't the team we
50:09
didn't go out there with an agenda and I remember thinking you guys were full of it I'm like of course we do we're going out there to you know save people you
50:15
know well it took me I don't know a year or two when I finally really understood
50:21
Jesus died for all Humanity most of whom won't acknowledge what he did for them
50:27
what we were called to do when going out there was to just love on people in his
50:32
name with No Agenda with no needed outcome from it other than to offer the
50:38
gift of the love of God in whatever form that took and then it was God's job then
50:43
to take the deposit we'd made and do with it whatever was going to happen it really released off of me any need for
50:51
it's not about that it's not about having to get to you know the point of Salvation or anything like that I am I
50:57
was out there really just giving out of the gifts that he'd given me personally
51:02
and allowing God's love to just flow to these people and to bring healing and
51:08
the touch of the whatever it looked like and it was it is in Paradigm shifting experience to to lay
51:16
down all agenda and to step into that River of the love of God and just allow yourself to be swept with it and to do
51:23
whatever comes out of that place that was I think for me the thing that changed me the most
51:30
um we had you asked about what protocols we had I had to do my process was like
51:35
battening down the hatches there were a lot of things that I was allowed to do so to speak or that I did books I read
51:42
things I watched whatever until I became part of the Burning Man team when you
51:47
know God would say we're not gonna you can't do those things because you didn't even realize the doors it was leaving
51:52
open so my process of battening down the hatches and submitting to discipline in
51:58
some of these areas but the the reward of being part of that and getting to
52:04
experience the love of God like that was just I mean there's nothing like it you're just never the same again after
52:09
you really just Dive In with everything into that that flow of God's love
52:16
I just want to validate what you said about um submitting and really trusting because um
52:22
you know I came out there and we had such a meaningful experience then I came to visit you guys and you know celebrate
52:28
Christmas with you and ate bear and drank wine and you know listen to music and and then
52:35
um but you guys even though we became close friends and kept in touch while I was traveling he had to wait five years
52:40
for me to come around literally five years like Labor Day Labor Day weekend 2015 is when we met and then I flipped
52:47
to quarterly and get baptized on I didn't fly up there for that I came to visit but you know but five years later
52:53
and there was never a point during that time where I felt ever felt any pressure
52:58
or any need or any pull or anything like that you just you just loved me for five years while I've traveled around the
53:05
world doing the craziest things and then I found out later behind the scenes you guys were praying for me like oh yeah
53:11
what is he doing oh no but that's a real that's a real Testament you know to to everything that
53:17
you're saying that just to be so open-handed about it when that can be so difficult like my church does Ministry
53:24
at abortion abortion clinics here in Phoenix has a nationwide and almost
53:30
International now Ministry for that and then also with Mormon temples and they're they're very open about like no
53:35
you're not actually the one that does anything you know the Holy Spirit you allow the Holy Spirit to work through you and don't personalize it and so I I
53:42
relate very much to that but then to see that to be able to to be able to vouch for it a thousand percent that I never
53:48
felt anything other than just you know pure love from you guys and how powerful and how challenging that must have been
53:54
for you to want so much for the people that you give to including me but not just me but then having to be like put
54:01
it in God's hands yeah yeah love is patient right yeah yeah I read that yeah
54:06
yeah that's pretty good yeah there were definitely times when I was involved in encounters and then releasing them back
54:14
out to the defilement of the Playa was heart-wrenching because you don't know what they're
54:20
going to choose but it wasn't our job is we just made the deposit that we were able to make and
54:26
come into God's hands yeah God is God Is Bigger Than previously thought oh yeah well you said a really
54:33
important word there you said defilement to the Playa and that's that is strong
54:39
proper Christian language for what's for what's going on right because I think when I tell people like I you know I'm
54:45
at Christ that Bernie Manor introduced himself to me or however the phrase I use it it's that um the people who know
54:50
about burning man even the even the gauziest friendliest videos on on YouTube you know show Hedonism and maybe
54:58
not full-on debauchery but you know it's it's definitely we'll call it a very open culture right but viewed through of
55:04
course through the secular lens it's this Shangri-La kind of experience which we'll get back to but viewed through a
55:10
Christian lens you know has as much pain as there is that's very real about being there there is a lot of sin and it's
55:18
hard to it's it's it's impossible to avoid that and so when you say batten down the hatches like yeah it's all
55:24
around you everywhere and as much as people really are concerned about their neighbors your neighbors might have the
55:30
orgy camp or whatever right they'll hold down your tents and a wind but
55:37
they might be naked while they're doing it oh hello there
55:42
you know what's really funny about that is the power and goodness of God because
55:48
we would never address their nakedness as they entered into the encounter tent to sit with us we just said well that's
55:56
God's domain we're not we're not here to judge their dress or lack of it but so
56:01
we get a lot of practice making eye contact yes really good at it but you know they
56:07
would sit down and this happened so many times suddenly they'd be looking for a
56:13
covering for their nakedness and we wouldn't we hadn't said a word
56:18
you know they'd be looking for a scarf or a shirt or something and and you know it just kind of amuses how God would
56:25
work in that area conviction's still alive no matter how much yeah they try to wallow conviction
56:32
and still be alive so um I want to give a shout out to uh uh
56:38
Darren Zinn who the present leader but also uh Lisa machek who co-led with me
56:44
for several years and Reese Saunders and Scott eblin who were the early guys from
56:50
students that did it I mean they they laid some serious tracks for for us to grow
56:57
um the other thing I wanted to say you talked about protocols there was actually a real
57:03
um uh nuts and bolts protocol thing that we learned from the Native American people
57:10
uh when we first came to Reno a small Church
57:15
hosted us and as part of that church there were a Native American couple and
57:21
their their son-in-law and their their daughter and they they came up to us and said do
57:27
you want to do protocol tonight so they did this very formal uh Native
57:33
American protocol where they danced we did a friendship dance they they spoke blessing over us they gave us gifts they
57:40
welcomed us into the land and we thought that was spiritual these
57:45
Native American Believers that Bluer blew our minds a bit and then they waited and so we went to dinner with
57:52
them and and they kind of waited for the US to feed back and so basically we were
57:58
saying different forms of what was that and so the answer came back from Dan
58:04
Mosley it was leading the group and he said basically we did it backwards when
58:10
you enter a stranger's land or a tribe land you are supposed to introduce
58:15
yourself and ask permission to enter the land those these are the old ways
58:23
and uh and then bring a gift we would have a gift exchange
58:28
and so after that for about four years they brought us around to about four
58:33
different tribes and we would meet um the chief or the tribal chairman and
58:40
maybe some members of of uh the governing body or whatever and we
58:47
would buy you know buy a Pendleton blanket we do a very formal presentation and we would ask them for permission to
58:54
enter the land for um and the reason we are doing it is
59:01
um to in order to speak the message of Jesus you know and whether they were saved
59:09
pre-saved didn't matter they recognized you are doing the old ways of honor and
59:15
in fact they're God's ways you're not just assuming you have the right to come into an area now you know
59:22
you're doing the old ways and we would get the blessing every time
59:28
um and we we credit that with putting a whole different level of blessing on us
59:34
both um as the uh the gatekeeper people that God
59:41
had there originally and and also the blessing of the land
59:48
the Playa the yeah just the land in general you know the these were ancient
59:53
lands owned by the people and um so this there's plenty of scriptures
59:59
in the Bible about the land how the land actually is meant to uh give us light
1:00:04
cooperate with the sons of God and and such so uh that's a whole nother
1:00:11
layer that would be another conversation so um
1:00:16
so I wonder so for those of you who who showed up in the later years maybe Barb or Katie I'm I I had this image in my
1:00:25
mind of so you've heard about the spirit dream camp and maybe you've seen photos and I would still like to go through
1:00:31
some of the photos but you heard about the camp and so you finally take the leap to go for the first time and so
1:00:37
you're in the RV or or in the car or whatever and you're actually going into
1:00:43
the land of Burning Man and you drive up and you're seeing like the welcome home kind of sign you're going through the
1:00:48
whole ritual like just walk me through that moment of like you're actually venturing into the place that you've
1:00:54
heard about well by the time I went of course I had
1:01:01
heard the stories about going into the gate how the welcoming committee there
1:01:07
and so I was I was actually anticipating that with great Delight
1:01:13
getting down and applying and doing dust angels and all that and so it was really quite exciting I'll
1:01:19
tell you though when we got the camp up and running uh that very first Year Rob
1:01:25
did not go that year that I went because he took the year off he and Lisa had
1:01:31
handed over the leadership of the camp to Darren
1:01:36
and so they thought it best that for him to get um off to a good start
1:01:43
they would stay back and allow him to run and uh which is a beautiful thing
1:01:50
because then they well Lisa didn't come back although she wanted to but a job took her away from that but
1:01:57
Rob was able to come back and do that successfully so that's another example
1:02:03
of a transition in leadership that worked successfully in this Arena where Rob
1:02:11
could come under rocket and um and work successfully with
1:02:17
him but anyway I went when Rob didn't and so with this whole change of leadership there was a lot of
1:02:23
changes to the team and I'm just coming on new and um so there was a lot of
1:02:29
things that I didn't understand until later you know nuances of changes in leadership and I was supportive as I
1:02:37
could be um but there was a time when I was in
1:02:42
the the um the coffee Dome and so that was I
1:02:48
they were kind of putting me here and there and so I was in the coffee Dome and they had prepped me a little bit
1:02:55
that people would give you gifts maybe they'll give you stones and so on because it's the giving culture and and
1:03:01
you know be sure that you look at them and discern our what you need to do with them do you keep them and and pray over
1:03:09
them and cleanse them or do you throw them away and this sort of thing so this happened and uh and this somebody gave
1:03:16
me some little stones and I felt like they were defiled and but I was
1:03:23
new you know all of this was kind of new to me and so I went to
1:03:28
um one of the people and the the leaders in the dome and I and it was almost like
1:03:33
she didn't even recognize me she looked at those and and she could feel that defilement and told me what to do but it
1:03:40
was almost like that defilement almost closed off who I was to her almost it
1:03:47
was really an interesting interesting exchange and I got rid of the stones and
1:03:52
clints and all of that but it really um instructed for me it was quite quite
1:03:58
and so that from that experience that one experience and I went on and I
1:04:04
didn't I was pretty clear about receiving gifts and what to do with them but that first the initial one that
1:04:11
breaking the ice in that Arena so to speak was quite um well
1:04:18
striking yeah how are you going to know right like there's so much to figure out as
1:04:23
you get on the ground about how the whole thing works right under the weather and the dust and the people like
1:04:30
someone hands you some rocks like that's not gonna be the first thing on your mind right right yeah right yeah yeah
1:04:36
and so when I by the time I came around the protocols were pretty well established so I know there was some
1:04:42
years prior to me coming that were pretty wonky I've heard the stories but um I started in 2012 and I just felt
1:04:50
really covered I mean Andrea was my official sponsor but I had all these guys there was I don't know
1:04:55
either of us or something like that that went from North Idaho at the time and so I just kind of like held on to their
1:05:02
coattails and went along with things and if there was anything that fell off that was the beauty of the structure is my
1:05:09
first point of contact if I didn't understand or whatever would be my sponsor it would have been Andrea but I
1:05:15
knew because we were already doing Ministry together up here we had a dream interpretation Ministry that we'd been doing already for a few years together
1:05:21
um our whole team I just felt that real sense of covering but that was kind of my grafting in so I had a little bit of
1:05:27
an easier on-ramp on that front I wasn't as concerned about the spiritual aspect
1:05:33
of it I was more a big baby about the Dust yeah and the discomfort and True
1:05:40
Confession yes I dodged the rolling in the dust at the gate my new year I don't
1:05:46
have to do it either I didn't want to I'm like I'm not doing that I didn't do it you didn't no how did you get out of
1:05:51
it you just like say no I don't know we basically lied and then repented later
1:05:59
we we told we told them we were so shocked that two bikini clad women with
1:06:05
skulls tattooed down their backs entering our bus and we're looking like
1:06:11
we came out of the 4-H club in costumes you know we're we're going
1:06:18
oh yeah we're cool we've been here before yeah they just thought you Liars just play it cool yeah yeah but I I had
1:06:27
it was it was a good thing going in feeling that covered uh but for me um I had to be kicked out of the nest a
1:06:33
little bit um because I was I was afraid to stay step out and wasn't speaking up like so
1:06:40
the I remember one encounter I had and there were three people on the team and
1:06:45
um it was a young woman and I felt like she needed a mother's blessing but
1:06:52
I wasn't gonna do it right I'm a Noob I'm just learning and pass so right so
1:06:57
the other two people in the team they gave her this encounter at the end of it I turned to the team lead a woman named
1:07:03
Deborah and I told her you know I kind of felt like this and she said you you need to speak up more she said if you
1:07:09
feel something like that you can whisper in my ear um and that she was gonna she'd give me the guidance so that I wouldn't derail
1:07:16
and do something stupid right well I was kicking myself I was so mad at myself because I knew this girl needed the love
1:07:23
of a mother and I was feeling it in my heart and I didn't extend it and I was really upset with myself and so I just
1:07:30
prayed I was like you know what God she I know she needs this and I miss the boat and anyway I just had to entrust
1:07:36
god with it um this is a great testimony about the Synergy of the spirit that our camp operated in so
1:07:43
that night at dinner we had dinner and then I go up to the station where we're washing our plates and I overhear one of
1:07:51
our other teammates Rochelle who actually is one of our Idaho teammates talking about this young gal who came
1:07:56
into the coffee Dome she had an encounter and she was really undone by her encounter and so she went into the
1:08:02
coffee Dome just to process which was really common when people would do that a lot and God highlighted this gal to
1:08:09
Rochelle and she went over and sat with her and um held her and blessed her as a mother
1:08:15
and all I started crying right there at the dishwashing station because it was like God had God had it God was more
1:08:22
invested in her getting that blessing of a mother than I was I was invited to be part of that but God had my back and had
1:08:29
this young gals back and boy what a testimony to the Synergy of the spirit
1:08:34
um just between the encounter tent and the coffee Dome there wasn't the communication going back and forth
1:08:40
verbally between us but boy the spirit made it known what was going on in those places and if one needed to pick up
1:08:46
where someone else left off so great learning experience for me in that and
1:08:52
Faith Builder too and how often did that work with body art I was just gonna say
1:08:57
that one of the things on our menu board was inspired art and so we had artists
1:09:03
who had actually asked God for a prophetic picture and they would paint that somewhere on
1:09:10
the person's body and then they would prophesy to them about that body art and
1:09:15
it would speak right into their heart just like an arrow and so often there was such a Synergy between
1:09:22
um the different aspects of our camp is that person then would go and have a
1:09:27
regular encounter like um to go from the coffee Dome where they had body art and then go into the
1:09:33
encounter tent and the people didn't see their body or that they just got painted but they would have the same exact word
1:09:40
that they were just given with the with the picture and then they would show them oh my gosh yeah what they just
1:09:46
painted on me yeah and vice versa that would happen you know they would go to encounter first they'd get some
1:09:51
incredible word and then they'd go get body art and she would she would paint exactly what she the person just
1:09:57
encountered without knowing yeah I had a great story actually Katie and I were on
1:10:02
a team together and this was um early on and I remember you'd gotten a picture of
1:10:07
this gal that she was like a a water jug but there was a crack and so it was like
1:10:13
all this stuff in here just was leaking out it was a picture and it just kept leaking out and it was and so it was a
1:10:19
healing Journey that we took her on to heal this place in her heart where it was it was not a good leaking out I
1:10:25
can't remember the exact gist of it so she goes from our encounter and into the coffee Dome doesn't share what the
1:10:32
encounter was and meet up the team member in there who was painting on her painted a water pitcher on the scal's
1:10:38
arm wow no crack yeah and not knowing what had happened and we heard about that later and it was like mind blown
1:10:45
like yes and she her mind was blown oh yeah absolutely yeah yeah this is great
1:10:51
yeah I had to do that I've actually got the picture of the coffee Dome here let me share it real quick yeah I've got a
1:10:56
bunch of pictures actually it's here we go that's the coffee dome right yeah yeah
1:11:01
yes we've got the speakers and the DJ set up what was that no DJ we just said no yeah
1:11:09
speakers with music got it yes I created a uh the music the playlist and we would
1:11:15
just play it was uh I had a new several playlists that I could play during the
1:11:22
day and uh we played that it's a variety of Music we did have a real we have a
1:11:29
lot of wonderful Encounters in the Dome the coffee Dome one I think we all
1:11:34
remember is there and of course the coffee Dome we pray through it and cleanse it and so
1:11:41
on but still things get through and I'm sure there was one day when there's one spot one specific area in the coffee
1:11:48
Dome that was attracting licentiousness and
1:11:54
um naked yeah it kind of sensuality kind of things and and so we had to monitor
1:12:02
all that of course and so we're going hmm there's something up here and so uh
1:12:07
one of the gals had maybe it was was Rochelle I forget who it was Rochelle
1:12:12
had the sense of um we need a mom no no no she she went
1:12:18
she she tried all of her tricks okay didn't know what to do and so she went
1:12:23
to our kitchen lady named amphora and said please come help us this is what's
1:12:30
happening we don't know what to do and so amphora goes into the Dome and she's like praying going God what am I
1:12:36
supposed to do I don't know what to do and as she walks into the Dome she hears the Lord say to her children don't like
1:12:44
to sin in front of their mothers and so she felt like she was supposed to
1:12:49
release a mother's blessing over that spot and so she did that she released a mother's blessing over that spot and the
1:12:56
licenses never happened again oh wow a creative solution yeah yeah
1:13:02
yeah I think this was one of the things that I remember being really struck by is you know for me spending all the time
1:13:09
in Secular Progressive new age whatever mystical culture you know the perception of energy is very real
1:13:15
right and then and once you once I got a an understanding of that it's not something that I could ever forget or
1:13:22
deny was a real was a real thing right and so um and so I think what you guys did so
1:13:28
well is you had that awareness you had that understanding which gave you uh not
1:13:34
only the ability to have spiritual insight into what was going on around you but also to communicate with people
1:13:39
from the culture about this phenomenon that usually gets dismissed by so many other people that you can actually feel
1:13:46
energy things can be invested with the energy of of someone or something or an act or something like that but a lot of
1:13:52
people don't have that um that sense and so for you going out to burning man if you don't have that
1:13:58
sense you don't develop your that sense you'll be in real danger because it's real and then also for people that are
1:14:04
looking to communicate on that level about this way that they have of perceiving reality quite accurately not
1:14:10
always but sometimes quite accurately you know it you can meet them on the level that they're at especially
1:14:16
especially me to be able to understand that yeah the coexisting spiritual realm is very
1:14:24
real in both kingdoms yeah say more say more about that unpacked yes and yeah
1:14:32
well well you know and I I prefer the excuse me
1:14:37
put the put the weight on the Kingdom of Light God's kingdom yeah because
1:14:42
we all know too well how people get afraid of curses and and things that
1:14:48
satanists and witches might do but um listen in God's kingdom a curse
1:14:54
causeless shall not come in a scripture shall not land you know
1:15:00
um unless there is a cause and then but we have the out of repentance you know and we also know that who's given us all
1:15:07
authority over all works of the enemy you know so we don't have to be subject
1:15:14
to that we can change the atmosphere we can train the curses on ground but we
1:15:19
could also change the curses over people and we don't have to live with that stuff and when there's an intentionality
1:15:25
of 35 people on a team and a big yes in other words we're agreed in faith that's
1:15:33
a big yes it's easier to operate that way you know we're not wading through a
1:15:39
mass of unbelief one of the one of the unfortunate things about many of our
1:15:45
Christian circles is there's a lot of unbelief as to what God can do or who he is yeah so it's very hard to Wade
1:15:52
through a wall of unbelief and Jesus you know there's several times when you
1:15:59
have to take out the people that didn't believe would I think it was his
1:16:04
mother-in-law to heal the mother-in-law and said you people leave you're interfering with the ability to heal and
1:16:11
then there were whole cities that Jesus couldn't go because they did not their unbelief was so strong and you know if
1:16:19
your unbelief is really strong then you must be believing in something else like fear right so that's not good right
1:16:26
Peter's mother-in-law Peter's mother-in-law not Jesus's mother I was gonna ask I was like do I say
1:16:33
that's fine yeah they've got it yeah boy
1:16:38
I don't remember which book that was in yeah yeah
1:16:45
anyways uh we just know that it's it's our privilege and joy to change
1:16:54
call it change that sounds strange but change the atmosphere you know if it's dark we come to bring light in fact we
1:17:01
are the light of the world just our presence when we personalize that and be very
1:17:07
intentional because Jesus said it you're the light of the world yeah what does that mean that means you are radiating
1:17:14
something that changes the land the atmosphere the people around you we were also very intentional about
1:17:22
um creating the atmosphere within our camp where the presence of God would be
1:17:27
the you know the fullest and that that's also part of the story of you know the
1:17:32
progression of things is the art because Burning Man is an art festival and the
1:17:38
first few years I went we were you know the ladies in the in the camp were just decorating the tent
1:17:44
with some pretty fabrics and you know just kind of throwing it together but God put it on my heart about my third
1:17:51
year to be more intentional and create something specific and he put it on my
1:17:57
heart to do a tree of life and so he gave me the download of how to do that how to create this tree of life
1:18:03
with these you know branches and leaves hanging down and everything and it absolutely transformed the atmosphere
1:18:10
that was in that encounter tint just like uh when God gave specific
1:18:17
directions with his Tabernacle or his Temple he he had all kinds of specific
1:18:22
art he wanted created in there and then it was a place for him to dwell and when you go through that
1:18:30
intentionality to partner with god with his creativity what do you want to release in this space artistically then
1:18:37
his presence comes and and it just transformed we call it atmosphere design and by the time you came along we had
1:18:43
done the tree of life for four years and God gave us a new theme which was the visions of Ezekiel so you came in to
1:18:51
whirlwinds and rainbows and creatures with eyes all around a lot of strange
1:18:56
images Wheels within Wheels within Wheels yeah that was what I needed what
1:19:03
I needed to see say more because you had mentioned early Ezekiel Ezekiel earlier in the conversation
1:19:10
you know what if the very images from the Bible that God tells us to do what
1:19:17
if there's a whole power and ability to shift directions or motion there's a lot of
1:19:23
motion yeah you know this is just to get people thinking you know what if because
1:19:29
again that coexisting spiritual realm is because the bail is rent and we have
1:19:35
access to the Heavenly realm of God these things become more real to us it's
1:19:41
it's more than Fabric in color yeah yeah you had an encounter with that face
1:19:49
of Jesus yes I did yeah like wearing goggles yes yes he did that's the wild part
1:19:57
because you know I I I I tell the story and it would be easy easy it would be
1:20:03
easy to dismiss what I saw if it was just if it was just a face from a
1:20:08
painting like thoughts can be transferred between people right like you could be standing behind me Katie I
1:20:14
remember you had your hands on either side of my head and you could be concentrating on the face of Jesus and maybe I'd pick up on it right like a
1:20:20
carbon copy but that wasn't what it was it's like a man walked up to me wearing goggles like wearing Burning Man goggles
1:20:26
to protect himself from the dust like what do you what what do you even what do I even do with that like
1:20:33
exactly exactly yeah and that was part of like the four faces that was part of
1:20:38
what Ezekiel Saw that was part of your your decorative shift let's say yeah it was the living creatures with the faces
1:20:44
so the face of an ox the face of a lion the face of an eagle in the face of a man and you know it doesn't say in there
1:20:52
that the face of a man is a basic Jesus but I decided when I painted that to use
1:20:57
akiana's painting of Jesus as my model and it was just a sketch it wasn't like
1:21:04
a full painting it was just a sketch of a man's face but you're not the only one that recognized it as Jesus there was
1:21:10
another woman that came in and came to my my encounter group one day and she
1:21:17
wanted Deliverance she asked she plain out said I have two demons can you get
1:21:22
rid of them said oh yeah we can we can do that if
1:21:28
we're gonna do that I need to use the name Jesus is that okay with you and she said oh yes I recognized him
1:21:34
when I came in I saw him on that thing I'm like wow I never said that was Jesus
1:21:41
it was yeah it was apparent yeah I could kind of tell it was Jesus but I still remember Katie I asked you because yeah
1:21:48
you asked me is that Jesus I knew it but I was like okay I don't want to walk out of this moment this is the thought that
1:21:53
was going through my head is I don't want to walk out of this moment and then later be like okay maybe that was some guy who was the founder of the camp or
1:22:00
something like that some human some some other person right so I wanted to make sure so that's why I asked but do you
1:22:07
have that picture well in the the lineup of pictures you have that picture of you in front of the the face of Jesus that
1:22:13
manner oh yeah they'll pull that up right now let's see whoever had the camera got
1:22:19
some great pictures yeah oh man let's go through yeah so this one right this one of me on my knees yeah yes yeah
1:22:26
yeah and my and you can see like you can see the dirt on top of my head because I found my head down and you can see the
1:22:31
dust on my feet and everything yeah yeah and then when I took the picture with you that which I can see there also I
1:22:38
asked if you wanted to wipe because I said oh you've got some Playa dust and you said no I want to leave it there yeah yeah the one right above there yeah
1:22:45
this one yeah you can see it on your face yeah yeah and the and the and the gifts that you
1:22:52
guys gave the necklaces I'm wearing yeah you guys made those for the people who came and you also gave me apply a name I
1:22:58
never I hadn't I'd been three times and I hadn't been given one before yeah oh what was it oh was it
1:23:05
yeah because you're like a strong Oak yes I was uh I was definitely a
1:23:12
different version of myself back then as well which I think you'd probably see in the photo oh yeah totally very different
1:23:18
completely different and then so listen you've got this one you've got this photo here what's this this is Barb this
1:23:23
is you with somebody yeah at home with Mother's blessings yeah yeah there we go yeah loving on a burner
1:23:30
and so as as the so here's some you have some photos of Burning Man this is what the you know oh there's there's the man
1:23:36
I don't know what year that would have been but the man was still on the ground so I guess it was probably
1:23:41
2000s somewhere yeah yeah I don't know and then there's the man again oh that
1:23:48
was the da Vinci's yeah and she's Workshop Adventures yep oh man
1:23:56
yeah I mean I think for people who haven't been before like there's a lot of infrastructure that goes into burning
1:24:02
man and one of the things that I wanted to say earlier was that you know if you were doing Ministry at a place like um
1:24:07
North Korea or China like those countries you know and the cities in them they're fixed in in place and they
1:24:15
don't go anywhere Beijing is not going anywhere right you can go there and it's it's consistent
1:24:21
um from year to year day to day hour to hour but Burning Man really only exists for the public for one week out of the
1:24:28
year and it's constantly changing and it's very much while there are a lot of principles that stay the same it's also
1:24:34
a moving Target right to be able to be able to so when you talk about going into the culture like yes there are
1:24:40
consistent aspects of the culture that are durable from year to year but at the same time every year you went in I
1:24:47
imagine you went into somewhat very different environments especially as it grew like if you were there from 2002
1:24:54
sorry 2004 to 2016 I went in 2003 so I know what it was like back then and then
1:25:00
I came back in 2013 and I Met You in 2015 but that 10-year period I went
1:25:06
through inflationary growth I remember in 2003 it was like 30 000 people you could walk the whole festival and didn't
1:25:12
need a bike when I went back in 2013 forget walking anywhere and the festival was like 60 or it doubled in size so
1:25:20
what was like what was that like being on the ground year over year watching the festival grow and change it kind of
1:25:25
become that moving Target Shangri-La yeah I don't know we just sort of we
1:25:31
just ourselves you know that's true yeah we just rode with it it's like you said
1:25:37
if you wanted to go look at it when it's 80 000 people it's a lot different yeah
1:25:42
yeah I won't say though that I mean as as a Believer who sees what sin does to
1:25:50
people it is it was very disturbing to see the growth to see how that was
1:25:57
spreading and the lawlessness that was being bred out there and then also being
1:26:03
taken from burning man out into the world yeah it's it's grieving yeah
1:26:09
that's true because there was an intentionality too that we were aware of by The Burning Man leadership to do
1:26:16
forums across the world and to kind of spread that sort of gospel of uh
1:26:22
yeah the gospel of Burning Man so to speak so that's happened the weight of evil
1:26:29
was growing so okay let's let's talk about that for a minute because I
1:26:35
remember when I went out in 2003 and the festival had kind of this wild west kind
1:26:40
of spirit but there was like a when I say there's a lawfulness you know at least everyone's like we don't really
1:26:45
know what we're doing so here's some fire and here's some plywood and here's some crazy kind of lasers and art like cool yeah it's fun but when I went back
1:26:52
in 2013 it felt like the festival had quote gone pro right and then there was
1:26:58
a solidity to it and there was a permissiveness there was a darker permissiveness to it like the wild west
1:27:05
has a permissiveness but I would say it also had a sense of like experimentation within defined
1:27:12
boundaries somehow but then it felt like 2013 that it flipped and I don't know
1:27:17
how to articulate it but I did feel that the evil had grown quite significant and only continued to from 2013 2015 up
1:27:25
until up until the present day like talk about that experience because that's the that's the the discernment that I'm
1:27:32
trying to have is like I don't think everything there was all bad all the time but it certainly felt over time
1:27:38
there was more bad more of the time as the years went on sure yeah all I can
1:27:43
say is I've I'm I've always been a very sensitive person to atmospheres to
1:27:49
what's in people you know I'm I'm a Feeler and so I have to say in the 10
1:27:55
years I went I grew so much but every single year I would enter the Playa and be you know my
1:28:03
senses were accosted by what was out there and so as we'd be setting up our
1:28:08
camp I'm like oh God why am I here again [Laughter]
1:28:14
and then you know by the time we get rolling with the ministry then you're you know you're refocused on why you're
1:28:20
there again and you know and the grace of God comes over you but yeah you have to deal with that you have to deal with
1:28:26
that yeah well if you look at the 10 principles that Rob's got them printed out here the 10 principles of Burning Man I remember reading that before I
1:28:33
went out the first time and really they've got some pretty altruistic principles that the the event was
1:28:38
founded upon yeah but um what ended up happening is it just degenerated into a big orgy yeah uh so by the time we
1:28:46
retired in 2017 uh the tide had turned to the point that even the true burners
1:28:52
like the people who'd been around for a long time since the beginning of it they were having been a hard time with the
1:28:58
direction that it had gone because it they've gotten away from this kind of radical generosity radical Community I
1:29:05
mean the the principles essential core principles are not bad a bad thing but
1:29:11
what got built upon that was just yuckier and yuckier as they just got darker and darker as the years went on
1:29:17
yeah the principles were went by the wayside
1:29:22
uh and that people going really didn't consider them that much it seemed like
1:29:28
to me it was more like oh we're going to Burning Man and we're gonna let anything
1:29:33
fly yeah throw off all Innovations and just yeah you know dive into all the sin
1:29:39
yep you know that they didn't do in normal life yeah I remember one one year
1:29:45
there was a group of Ira young Irish uh
1:29:50
kid that had I think they had graduated high school whatever that is over there
1:29:55
and kind of were young beginning College when they a group of them came over and
1:30:01
one of the things that they were going to do while in the States was go to burning man it's like you know it had
1:30:07
grown worldwide to that kind of a oh let's go to Burning Man and you know let
1:30:13
experience anything and everything in it I I don't think any one of them really
1:30:19
uh um would say they they could quote any
1:30:24
of those principles yeah yeah it wasn't why they were there yeah yeah can you
1:30:30
read the principles real quick just so everyone knows what they are um sure
1:30:35
[Music] so um
1:30:41
radical inclusion No Stranger you know got uh we we worked
1:30:48
under when when we're the first year we were there we were with IHOP and the leader Randy Bollinger he was actually a
1:30:55
pastor and he actually befriended um Larry Harvard Larry Harvey the the
1:31:01
founder Visionary he befriended him I mean they became Buds and there was a
1:31:06
video that came out called Pastor on the Playa they interviewed him and and he
1:31:11
went and said you know God can work with any of these principles yep and so the
1:31:17
bigger thing as I read these is choice and how you do that people got at the
1:31:22
center or do you put your own desires at the center so radical inclusion next one
1:31:28
is gifting we're all about God's greatest gift you're all about gifting uh D
1:31:34
commodification um in order to preserve the spirit of
1:31:40
gifting our community seeks to create social environments that are un mediated by commercial sponsorships transactions
1:31:47
or advertising and I remember in the early days you have to even block lettering like U-Haul on a trailer they
1:31:55
didn't want any commercial thing at all uh radical self-reliance Burning Man
1:32:01
encouraged individuals to discover exercise and rely on their inner
1:32:06
resources radical self-expression uh unique recognizing the unique gifts
1:32:14
of the individual and no one is like you and you should have Liberty to exercise that well you can see where that can go
1:32:21
off the cliff or produce beautiful art you know communal effort our community
1:32:27
creates Cooperative cooperation and collaboration we strive to produce promote and protect social networks
1:32:34
public spaces works of art methods of communication civic responsibility we value Civil
1:32:41
Society committee members who organize events should assume responsibility for public
1:32:49
welfare um
1:32:55
makes sense I'll read that again you broke up for just a second God created when yeah leaving no Trace was
1:33:02
yeah yeah yeah our participation is committed to
1:33:09
radically participatory ethic and uh
1:33:15
I only wish churches were more like pets All In
1:33:21
and then immediacy uh immediate experience is in many ways the most important Touchstone of value in our
1:33:28
culture we seek to overcome barriers that stand between us and recognition of our inner selves the reality of those
1:33:34
around us participation in society and contact with a natural world exceeding
1:33:41
human powers no idea can substitute for this experience of immediacy
1:33:49
yeah I mean you can see yeah I mean they're they're good for what they are but definitely it's easy to see how you
1:33:55
could build anything off of that especially the what is radical self-expression because my experience of
1:34:01
going to Burning Man from secular culture was at at least by 2013 2015. it had become that however you choose to
1:34:10
express yourself is is innately spiritual and therefore
1:34:15
good so if you want to go out there and you want to and and you can be whoever you are in in the everyday life and then
1:34:22
you go out to Burning Man you go quote home right home was where you belong not the 51 weeks out of the year but that
1:34:28
one weekend of the year you're home and then you go out to Burning Man and then if you want to walk around naked and
1:34:33
paint yourself blue and get into orgies and do all the drugs and do all the stuff that is your self that is your radical self-expression your
1:34:40
self-expression is inherently spiritual and if inherently spiritual it is inherently good and that that definitely
1:34:47
grew and even to the point where it became almost expected then you know
1:34:53
back in 2003 I remember you didn't have to dress up if you did cool you know it was encouraged but by 2013 15 there was
1:35:00
like a uniform it's kind of expected you had a furry vest and if you're not doing that then you're not properly
1:35:05
participating so it was like almost this real subtle air of shaming around like no you're supposed to be crazier if
1:35:11
you're not crazy you're not at Burning Man it's like why do I gotta be that I want to be that way like I'm here for
1:35:16
different reasons but it almost it almost tried to start pulling the worst out of people and I think it succeeded in many ways
1:35:23
for for an art community who said we all have to look like a Mad Max movie yeah
1:35:29
right steampunk whatever yeah yeah who said that was a standard yeah yeah
1:35:35
so as you guys you guys would do your your ministry work during the day what was it like when you would go riding
1:35:41
around at night like I knowing what we've talked about that the day is full of so many protocols and so much
1:35:47
spiritual cleansing and so much keeping yourself safe within your own God protected space then you really Venture
1:35:53
into the the Heart of Darkness in some ways the night that burning man would be coming this is where we went yeah
1:36:00
we wanted to see the cool art we didn't go into the dark dark places yeah we
1:36:06
just stayed away from that yeah we I remember one year going to see we typically we'd want to see the man and
1:36:12
maybe see the temple um and the one year was a carnival I don't remember what the theme was but it
1:36:18
was a Carnival Carnival of mirrors yeah I mean carnivals are already creepy enough and then you throw the Burning
1:36:23
Man element at it and we went to see the man but it was amazed that you had to go through and we didn't realize we got
1:36:30
into it and it got darker and we'd always travel in groups also we didn't go anywhere Alone
1:36:35
um and then um we realized uh actually this is too too far too dark and trying
1:36:41
to get out of there um I kind of started to panic I was like looking the walls were so tall I was thinking can I climb that like I want it
1:36:47
out so bad because it was just too far it was too dark so we were we were
1:36:52
careful where we went and right yeah plus I don't know it was it every night
1:36:58
was different but usually when I would only go out maybe once maybe twice uh on
1:37:05
the Playa at night do because I wanted to see the the cars and the and like
1:37:10
they said the the man and so on but I you know once I saw that it was like
1:37:16
okay well I'm just good with chilling in our camp and sitting around and chatting
1:37:21
with people drinking some wine and oftentimes we were so exhausted yeah by the end of the day because we would be
1:37:27
ministering heavily all day I didn't want to go out I went out once just to
1:37:33
see the cool things and then I would stay at home yeah and rest I'm an old guy I want to go to bed at night yeah by
1:37:40
my last couple years I didn't go out at night anymore I didn't I don't think I went out the
1:37:45
last time there was a couple times when a couple of our team members their son had an art car yeah and he would take us
1:37:52
out and that was different because we were all together on this car and it just felt a lot more protected so that
1:37:57
was fun now there was one year when uh just down the street not too far from us
1:38:03
um there was a little camp that was showing these old movies and and we did
1:38:08
Venture down there and watched uh Princess Bride Princess Bride Monty Python the whole it was a quotable movie
1:38:14
so the expectation is that you could quote it the entire movie if you wanted to which was so cool that was fun yeah
1:38:20
yeah yeah there were a couple camps we would find that were lighter yeah uh and there was a wine Camp down the way a
1:38:27
couple years yeah and they had like corn hole in the hula hoops and um but that was pretty clean you know
1:38:33
the bottom line is if you give people the freedom to do whatever they want to do without being judged there are people
1:38:40
who will Choose Wisely and people who will choose badly yeah yeah so you find
1:38:46
it all out there oh yeah yeah and as you guys started to get more well known and people started to realize like
1:38:53
there's this thing going on over there what was that like when people started to figure out kind of who you guys who
1:38:58
you guys were I mean there must have been a moment where that happened yeah but you know I think
1:39:04
by then um they have they honored us they respected us I mean I even in the part
1:39:11
of the early years uh part of our learning curve is they would encourage us they would go oh
1:39:18
no don't leave early you're part of our community you know and we you know we told them
1:39:23
listen we're kind of done when they're going to burn the man and yeah Saturday night but but you know they they would
1:39:33
they did a lot to say you're you are part of us you're burners and indeed we had to embrace that to go no we're
1:39:40
we fit we were sent into this culture to fit in a way but but with a difference
1:39:47
you know yeah so they honored that yeah and we definitely developed relationships with certain other camps
1:39:53
there was one camp in particular Rhythm wave there were five rhythms dance camp and um
1:39:59
what's that ecstatic dance where you just kind of move your body yeah yeah uh
1:40:04
they would actually send their new team members to have an encounter and they would say go Monday or Tuesday first
1:40:12
part of the week because that we weren't as busy um and so the first couple of days it was really common for us to have rhythm
1:40:18
waiver after Rhythm weather in our encounters because they just had them all come or the people who had been before they knew show up early in the
1:40:25
week it's easier to get in and get an encounter so we would see them and then we would um we got to the point where we'd have a meal with them every year
1:40:32
um so really neat relationship developed there with that we also had people that said that told us they they would come
1:40:39
to Burning Man in order to come to our campus yes it was their privilege to come to our camp Yeah Yeah Carl or
1:40:46
people just you know get so blown away they go
1:40:51
I don't have to see the rest of Burning Man they need to go home or they just do what Andrew just said they just hang out
1:40:57
in the coffee Dome all the time yeah so they sort of adopted us yeah and I think
1:41:03
some of those that seemed like there were also some that were repeaters to our camp that also began to leave early
1:41:11
before the burning of a man because it was getting so dark even too dark for them it's like nah we're done yeah
1:41:18
yeah I completely get that um you know it's it's I I I think of you
1:41:25
guys as as odd as as odd as it sounds embodying the best principles of Burning
1:41:30
Man right like like you took it in the right direction you know rather than towards darkness and self-indulgence and
1:41:37
and uh and uh what we might call spiritual materialism or material spiritualism right like oh what I do
1:41:43
with my body is spiritual right spiritual materialism you guys actually took it in in the right direction embodied all the same principles but in
1:41:50
the direction of of light and goodness and beauty and virtue and of course God but you didn't wear God on the outside
1:41:56
like there wasn't a big cross at the front you know what I mean it wasn't it wasn't like a church it was you wore
1:42:02
these principles in who you were and what you did and let them speak for themselves in a way towards virtue so it
1:42:08
makes sense to me that people would come and experience what you have to offer and be like yeah I've gotten everything I need out of Burning Man other than
1:42:14
like oh look at the cool Blinky things and then I go home right right yeah and it all goes back to that
1:42:20
hunger inherent and so many of the people that spirituality was there
1:42:26
and basically our mission was to find it to meet it and to redefine it redefine
1:42:33
it for people over there or give it an interpretation if they didn't know what
1:42:38
they were feeling yeah that's the beauty of God I think he I think he likes doing that you know he
1:42:46
put the hunger there originally you put put the empty hole in the human heart that needs to be filled only within yeah
1:42:53
yeah with that note it's 110 and I have an appointment at 1 30. oh
1:43:00
I have a couple more questions but I mean I can take for the rest of the three of you and Andrea if you have to go by all means or we can wrap it up now
1:43:06
if you guys have to all go together but it's no problem they can carry on okay it's lovely to see you thank you for
1:43:12
thank you great to be part of this thank you good to see you
1:43:17
oh nice Kim yes oh no I said hi
1:43:23
hi Andrew yeah so I I think for me the one part of
1:43:28
my story and we'll just go for just a few more minutes if that's okay the one part of the story that I don't often talk about is how I actually how I
1:43:35
actually should we move our we look a little lopsided now exactly yeah is
1:43:41
actually how I came reorganizing the frame
1:43:51
all right anyway we feel better now perfect more balanced right feng shui is
1:43:58
actually how I came to even meet the guy who directed me to your camp in the first place so as I've I've mentioned
1:44:05
other other places I was dating this woman for a number of years and that relationship ended and this was at the
1:44:11
end of August 2015 and suddenly it's like well I'm not in this relationship anymore I'm okay with camping in tents
1:44:18
she was more of an RV kind of girl and I was like well now I can go so I just decided I felt a strong call to go to
1:44:24
Burning Man and so I went and people are always selling tickets at the last minute but the thing is I rode with a
1:44:30
bunch of people in with an RV and we we wrote we wrote Into the to the festival and the thing was no one no one knew
1:44:38
that I was coming you know so it's like suddenly I'm just showing up normally people spend a year planning what camp they're going to be
1:44:43
with and they contribute to camps monetarily and organizationally I'm just showing up kind of like as an orphan
1:44:48
right and so I'm in this RV full of guys I don't remember who's in the RV and they don't know where to park either not
1:44:54
because of me because they don't know where they're going right and so the RV as we're driving onto the Playa tries to
1:45:02
stop at three or four different locations right now and I know that I have friends I have the coordinates for
1:45:07
my friends camps are all over all over the Playa from like you know uh 11
1:45:12
o'clock you know on the clock face it's five o'clock and I think like you know three or four o'clock and so trying to
1:45:19
figure out where to park and we end up just parking the first place they could find a spot to fit their RV because it
1:45:26
was like Wednesday right and so by that point the festival's kind of filling up and finding places to park your RV
1:45:32
closer to the center versus The Rim you know is really difficult so we park in this uh particular spot that isn't part
1:45:40
of anyone's Camp it's just a free space so that meant I was closer to one Camp than another one and we were drove
1:45:46
around for like an hour and a half trying to find a place to park and that meant I was closer to one camp and then another so I'm like okay I can either
1:45:52
hitch a ride an art car all the way to the other side of the festival to meet up with one group of group of friends or
1:45:58
I can just carry all my stuff two or three blocks to this other Camp it's like okay I'll just carry my stuff and
1:46:04
see what they have and so if the RV had parked somewhere else and because I went there and set up when I did and put my
1:46:10
tent right where it was went to sleep woke up in the morning and then that morning is when I met the guy who
1:46:16
directed meteor Camp because he was an attempt next to me like if I had arrived if I had if we had parked on the other
1:46:22
side of the Playa I would I never would have I mean who knows right like you know God makes all things work right right you know what the coincidence
1:46:30
Coincidence of me of the RV struggling to find a place to park so we could park
1:46:35
in that space so that I could be at that camp and meet that guy the morning after
1:46:40
he had seen you guys yeah all those pieces lining up that got me there in the first place yeah I mean it's it
1:46:47
blows my mind yeah I love that kind of hindsight when you see the hand of God orchestrating things behind the scenes
1:46:53
that you're completely unaware of and the outcome is phenomous it is mind-blowing yeah
1:46:59
yeah and then you know just last couple questions like are you still other than
1:47:05
me are you still in touch with anybody from the um from the event or do you ever get feedback of like oh I met you
1:47:11
guys and you set my life in a whole new direction or yeah yeah I heard from a um
1:47:17
a guy that he lives in New York City he had a radical in common with God uh the
1:47:23
year we were with him um yeah he just was wondering if we were going and
1:47:29
um I don't perceive you know it was a slight chat and he was getting ready to
1:47:34
get on a plane to come here it was like a last minute getting ready to go to burning man it was a last minute thing
1:47:41
so we didn't carry on a big chat but yeah I thought it was significant he got
1:47:46
in touch yeah there was a one man from Rhythm wave um named Rich actually I was involved in
1:47:54
an encounter with him it was my newbie year and coming to find out it was his also and Rob had been telling me
1:48:01
there'll come a moment when the penny will drop which is that moment when you just it's like something in you just
1:48:09
grasp into what's happening there the move of God and um it was in the encounter with Rich it's when it
1:48:15
happened and um I was undone by it and he was undone by it he went over in the coffee Dome afterwards apparently and
1:48:21
was in there weeping and crying and anyway the next year he came back for an encounter and randomly was seated with
1:48:29
my encounter team and it was that moment of recognition and excitement to see each other well after that every year
1:48:35
when he came he would actually ask to be seated with me and watching the process of him coming to the Lord over the years
1:48:43
how so the encounters that he had with us were significant touch points so he
1:48:49
and I still keep in touch Loosely you guys ran into him randomly at a Native
1:48:54
American uh event that you guys went to yeah yeah um and then also there was one year
1:49:01
where there was this young German gal that came to our camp and she had come with her sister and her sister was
1:49:08
wholly embracing The Burning Man experience and this gal was completely freaked out by the Bernie Mac experience
1:49:14
and ended up coming I think every day for an encounter um as she hung out in
1:49:20
the coffee Dome a lot we were a safe space for her um she and I have been communicating a little bit also which has been really
1:49:26
cool so um I know and there was a maybe not so much now but um for a few
1:49:34
years there was a another gal in San Francisco and she might be in touch with
1:49:39
some of the other uh team members yeah uh yeah and Shannon and yeah yeah
1:49:46
I think there's some of the other team members that are in touch with some of
1:49:51
the people they came across as well yeah like this yeah so you know it's one of the things that we've learned actually
1:49:56
through the ministry um that I mean me learning it through the dream interpretation Ministry you
1:50:02
guys had already had a lot of experience with that is the whole thing of God entrusts us with this whatever
1:50:07
Encounters in front of us are responsible for that and then beyond that it's up to God where he's going to take things so learning to release
1:50:15
to God the responsibility for what happens after that yeah um because like
1:50:21
I said it's pretty hard sometimes to you know watch them walk out of our encounter tent back out into whatever
1:50:27
was going to happen out there but uh we just you know would do what we were called to do in the little time that we
1:50:33
had with them and then beyond that it's up to God you know and I learned so much also about the the reach of God's arm
1:50:40
you know if if he can direct people to our camp at Burning Man to get that
1:50:46
significant of an encounter he can do it anywhere yeah yeah exactly
1:50:51
and I just one one more question is is uh I don't I don't want to ask but that means that I that I that I I have to ask
1:50:58
is that I want to walk through my encounter through your eyes because I've told the story through my eyes so many
1:51:03
times and I think about it all the time so like just just walk through like this guy shows up in front of you in like
1:51:10
three and a half hours later and then five years later if there's anything you want to share for that that um yeah
1:51:15
please feel free you know for for from my perspective as
1:51:21
I was thinking about this I I loved how it unfolded because I could see uh when
1:51:30
you sat down we get started and you know I could I could feel and sense and see
1:51:37
um your and feel that that thing in the spirit where you're you're coming
1:51:45
forward and you're sharing some stuff and then you pull back this back and forth and how how much can we go and it
1:51:51
was like almost like an onion you know like we get through
1:51:56
one thing and you go wow you kind of be really impacted and then yeah yeah I
1:52:01
want some more and we would just keep going and I remember it was a beautiful
1:52:06
thing um and I remember which I really highly
1:52:12
value this will because not everybody would do this but when that point in
1:52:18
time when you said uh I forget the words that you use but basically you were
1:52:24
talking about your relationship with men and father figures and so on and and uh
1:52:29
questioned Larry yeah and I thought that was brilliant I was I still to this day
1:52:34
it's like that was so cool that you had the courage you had the fortitude go no I'm
1:52:41
here now and I'm not gonna bail because I'm I'm questioning this guy's
1:52:48
intentions or whatever and you just brought it out and that gave Larry the
1:52:53
opening to be able to express his heart to you and I just thought that was a beautiful beautiful thing and I loved
1:53:00
how you how that common that coming forward and coming back and this whole
1:53:06
thing and and going yeah no that was good I think I can take some more let's go yeah yeah yeah yeah your
1:53:13
voraciousness came through in that encounter yeah you were actually an easy encounter in that way because of your
1:53:21
hunger or your willingness your openness uh that we definitely had encounters over the years where we were really
1:53:27
having to try to draw people out and you were there to you were like bring it and
1:53:34
I just and the of the unfolding is a great way of saying it you know we we
1:53:40
wouldn't know it was kind of a weird sensation to be sitting in our seats and waiting for someone to be seated in
1:53:45
front of us like from one encounter the next we had no idea idea what was going to be seated with us and I would always
1:53:52
try to guess you know like you were saying you were looking and seeing which team you want to be with I would try to guess like okay which one are they going
1:53:58
to seat next and yeah I was almost always wrong but anyway not knowing what was going to happen and then to have you sit down with just your um
1:54:06
just openness and hunger and um it was an incredible faith-building encounter
1:54:12
for me and probably for you also just walking through the whole thing and then when you shared that thing about seeing
1:54:19
Jesus with the dust mask and the goggles that was kind of one of those things
1:54:25
that kind of like oh gee like he would show up I mean on the plyo full gear you
1:54:33
know so we're getting wrecked right along with you in that encounter it was amazing
1:54:39
when uh when I had that that inspiration was like just dropped to take you over
1:54:45
and and lead you over it's like yeah take him over and lead him over and introduce him and it was like that whole
1:54:53
thing was like almost as I think about it now it's almost like a slow-mo play I
1:54:59
Can Read revisit that and it was such it impacted me profoundly as well as you
1:55:06
hit the floor you know you just hit the floor and and coming undone there and
1:55:11
like I was coming it was a powerful powerful moment uh
1:55:18
enveloped with the infused with the power of God in in that moment and who
1:55:26
you can't help but be wrecked basically and that was a powerful moment for me as
1:55:32
as well as for you it was so so I'm so I feel privileged to have that
1:55:39
moment with you mm-hmm yeah and then having you come up here for Christmas yes and um I remember I
1:55:47
don't even know how many times throughout the course of the time you were here you kept grabbing your head and saying too much goodness too much
1:55:55
goodness you couldn't process what you were experiencing
1:56:01
um but you know when you see somebody encountering the the reality of the
1:56:07
bigness and the love of the father and you see them like trying to even process
1:56:12
and like their physical body can't even handle what they're experiencing it does
1:56:17
something to you too you know it's like a it refreshes our own faith to see that
1:56:22
kind of a thing and uh what a a joy watching your journey and um I remember
1:56:29
you bringing up the thing about traveling and you had this in your heart uh to do this traveling and so Katie and
1:56:35
I as moms we're like well why wouldn't you do it like blessing you to go and explore and to live this stream not
1:56:44
knowing it was going to be this five-year journey into every possible spiritual
1:56:52
experience and Katie and I have talked about this I had a lot of oh God oh God moments reading your Facebook post and
1:56:59
Katie said she's just had a lot of faith I did I I had the Assurance I mean it
1:57:04
wasn't like I was happy you were you know I was like oh yeah he's gonna try that it was like no I just had this
1:57:11
assurance that that uh Jesus was with you and that he he wasn't gonna
1:57:19
let you go yeah that he was covering you somehow he was protecting you and I was
1:57:25
like I just have that faith and that Assurance even though it's like I'd squirm a little bit he's doing this okay
1:57:31
no no he's God's got this yeah yeah I remember you you uh telling the story
1:57:38
about I think you might have messaged just about it you were in I think it was Australia and you were in some town that
1:57:45
was known for its new age offerings Iron Bay maybe okay you're walking down the
1:57:50
street and there was a sign on the street prayer or it was something like that yes the prayer room yeah yeah yeah
1:57:56
and when you share that story it's like okay okay God's got it God's got it he's
1:58:01
okay yeah thank you for reminding me about that yeah there was Byron Bay is like it's like Sedona or Bali or Goa or
1:58:09
something like that and then I walked it I remember there was a prayer sign I don't even remember I remember what the denomination was or what it said but I
1:58:15
did go I did did go in there and you guys were with me like I was messaging you regularly you know on on Facebook
1:58:20
the four of you like we were adding chatting regularly yeah good and then
1:58:25
and then all of a sudden we get this message I've traveled the world and experienced all this and come to the realization
1:58:32
that Jesus is the truth it was like yeah yeah he stressed us
1:58:41
oh I mean my faith went through that just watching what you'd been through
1:58:46
and God just guiding you through it all really incredible well you know I
1:58:51
probably haven't told you this part of the story Rob but this is the part that you play into is you know so I met you
1:58:57
guys on the Playa and it was it was that moment with Larry that I was really stuck on was like I was I was projecting
1:59:03
he had some judgments towards me and it was just strictly coming out of me but I was like I'm not going to be able to get
1:59:09
past this and so it was a real maybe a 10 or 15 minute period where it's like okay this is in my heart I'm either gonna say it or not it's either gonna
1:59:15
stop either I'm gonna either I'm gonna give in to it and stop and leave or I'm gonna speak it and so I spoke it right
1:59:21
and that was a profoundly healing go ahead yeah let me just interject because I just reframed that here in this again
1:59:28
and that was a masterful cooperation with
1:59:34
Holy Spirit on your part because you brought something to the light most people go oh I don't want to
1:59:41
bring that I want to bring that up but you were honest you just brought it to the light you weren't vindictive or you know didn't have an edge you just
1:59:47
brought it to the light and that gave Larry um that opening to say oh no this is my
1:59:55
heart let me let me put you at these so two bits of light coming together you
2:00:01
know and if only we all would do that more in our daily lives more more
2:00:08
problems that get resolved like I'll give you a chance to speak now you know I'm struggling with this judgment I'm
2:00:15
not sure if it's right or wrong please speak yeah well that was the thing is I had to get my get my hands around but
2:00:21
there's a picture forming by the way of like how um how I guess providential it is that it's
2:00:28
was the four of you on the call today and then I wish Larry could be here but you know I'll speak I'll send him a message and we're done but like you know
2:00:35
uh but Larry had such an important role to play all four of you did but Larry's role because I'm sitting there for 15
2:00:40
minutes like struggling with us how am I going to express this and I'm having to separate like I'm having this projection
2:00:47
moment I'm not aware that it's a projection like am I actually feeling something and so I'm wrestling with it
2:00:53
like okay I've got to separate myself from it and find the right way to speak it in a way that isn't confrontational
2:00:58
or it's like okay I just need to check this out real quick like getting my hands around it like that to say you
2:01:04
know because I had announced that I wanted to travel and that I wanted to travel the world and what I was experiencing
2:01:11
um uh was that like he was judging me for that like oh who's this kid to do this privileged kid or whatever
2:01:17
something like that and that was that it was my own voice but I couldn't hear that it was my own voice I was projecting it onto him and so that I had
2:01:23
to take that out and be able to get it to the point where it's like okay this thing is happening I need to check out whether it's real or not and what I was
2:01:30
actually scared of was him be like yeah it's real it's like I don't know that was the fear right yeah right yeah right
2:01:37
but to be able to but to be like and I'll never forget the way that he said like no I don't feel that way at all I'm
2:01:44
happy and excited for you I was like really right well you know the people
2:01:49
who are listening to this podcast they know me in a certain way now but I was not always this guy like I remember I
2:01:55
had had this dream in my heart to travel for 15 years by the by the time that I met you guys almost 16 years and I had
2:02:02
to ask you guys for permission I had to ask total strangers for permission to to fulfill my own dreams and you guys I
2:02:09
remember Barbara I think you and Katie you guys looked at me like you don't need to ask us for permission but I still needed to ask right and the I and
2:02:16
that's completely alien to the way that I am now but that's the guy that I was back then because I was carrying this
2:02:22
internalized judgment that I needed to be able to get out into the space between me and Larry and then also Barb
2:02:27
you and me like the stuff that I had around mother and stuff like that to be able to separate that because I remember
2:02:33
you saying so meaningfully like no it's my job as a mom to let my son go like
2:02:38
I'm not supposed to hold him here forever like of course it breaks my heart of course it hurts to send him out
2:02:44
in the world but that's still what I have to do as a mother and that was not my experience of mothering at all and
2:02:50
that you had my mom's name Barbara that you offered that experience that was like what like that's what a mother is
2:02:57
you know and so on the same so you had a piece of it and Larry had a piece of it as well yeah thank you for sharing that well
2:03:05
that's uh that uh that fills it out
2:03:10
we knew some of that but you filled it out now even more and and thank you for
2:03:16
doing that you're welcome thank you I mean it was the space that the three of you created yeah because I was hungry
2:03:23
for it but while you're while you're doing the healing work with me I'm also testing you because I've done so much
2:03:29
healing stuff work do these people know what they're doing you know what I mean like they know what they're doing okay let's let's you know and there was a
2:03:36
point at which the ball just starts rolling downhill you know when the really deep stuff around mother and
2:03:41
father starts coming out you know that really liberated me to be like oh wow you mean like I can leave leave the
2:03:48
mother energy and go be myself and travel the world and and I can depart from this father energy and like no it's
2:03:54
okay and free myself like that was very powerful for me but there's no way that you guys would have known what was going
2:04:00
on behind my eyes yeah yeah yeah yeah and just really just the piece that you
2:04:06
had Rob is that um I've got it excuse me one second
2:04:16
oh yeah yeah yeah yeah because when I got back from my travels
2:04:22
the day I got back December February 2020. the day I got back you had shipped
2:04:29
this to my friend Jeff and I arrived into San Francisco
2:04:34
and he uh to stay with him for a couple nights and pick up my stuff and move to Phoenix the day I got back he put this
2:04:41
book into my hands simply Christian by NT writing which you had sent to me right and so now looking back I
2:04:47
understand that I met Christ on the Playa through you guys with you guys and he sent me on
2:04:54
this adventure to go and do all the things Ayahuasca you know the kumala Hindu
2:05:02
festival vipassana meditation all this different New Age stuff and medicines to go experience it all and to go do all
2:05:09
these things and when I got back Christ was waiting for me yes
2:05:14
because you sent me this Rob as a gift yeah yeah
2:05:19
thank you it was it was God's timing you know and you know another wrinkle to
2:05:25
that is uh you'd had so much experiences even including ours on the planet
2:05:33
um you needed some teaching yeah which is valid Jesus sat and taught so many times in the Bible he didn't just preach
2:05:39
or do Miracles he taught them principles of the Kingdom so so God has that for us
2:05:45
and I think that was your timing like you were ready yeah you're ready to be taught
2:05:53
old Chinese proverb when the student is ready the teacher will come you know
2:06:00
but God sent a book your way he sent a lot of blessings my way
2:06:06
yeah I'm like in tears here just um marveling that we
2:06:13
get to enjoy and see and and Marvel at
2:06:20
this transformation the you know you're not just your transformation all of us but as we're been recounting uh for the
2:06:29
last hour and a half or whatever it just is so wonderful
2:06:35
how God Works things out because he says my ways
2:06:41
are not your ways your ways are not my ways and I and so hearing all of this
2:06:47
and and hearing more and more you filling out your own story
2:06:53
um I just I just can't help but fall more in love with God he's so I love his
2:07:00
intricacies and his his creativity and just how cool he is amen
2:07:07
one other little piece of that real quick okay so the cover of this book simply Christian this
2:07:14
is caprianga which is the northernmost point of New Zealand which is which is a very special place
2:07:21
to me for my travels New Zealand and this place so when I got back having moved here from New Zealand
2:07:28
uh this book put in my hands from you rob as again I get chills that's amazing
2:07:37
yeah wow that's incredible yeah
2:07:44
oh God yeah he's good than previously thought
2:07:50
yeah right yeah oh we make him so small yeah this keeps getting bigger yeah
2:07:56
answering again God do you see me of course I do yeah yeah
2:08:02
well thank you all so much this has been a real blessing of a conversation after after many years of blessings of uh
2:08:09
friendship and fellowship with you guys thank you so much yeah you're welcome to have the conversation with you and yeah
2:08:15
relive the moments yeah don't be a stranger come back up here yeah or maybe
2:08:20
we'll get down there we'll see yeah yeah anytime and I I definitely have some people that I want to come visit up
2:08:26
there in Idaho as well yeah do you uh are there any place that
2:08:31
um that you send people for more information about you and or streams Ministries or any of the things that you
2:08:37
do online and know that you are doing dream interpretation online for a while wow that was more a factor of covid
2:08:44
um most of the work we do is pretty local um yeah Spirit drink Facebook we do have a
2:08:51
Facebook page where we put stuff in I mean it's just really for like our local dream interpretation Ministry that we do
2:08:58
um um yeah Spirit dream North Idaho yeah I
2:09:04
mean if somebody wanted to get in touch with us that would be the way because we do monitor that page so Spirit dream
2:09:09
North Idaho on Facebook we don't mind questions yeah put kindly yeah
2:09:15
Pearl calls everything remember yeah that's right yeah yeah I mean your your
2:09:20
everyday everyday people like there's no you know great magic to it in that way
2:09:25
it's like you're you're people who took on a a pretty brave and pretty bold calling to go uh right into the heart of
2:09:31
some pretty difficult and Dark Places and uh that's you know but that doesn't mean there's any greatness it's just
2:09:37
it's the it's the small things that confound the big things right yeah act
2:09:42
the privilege of getting to be part of what God's doing thank you all so much yeah thank you
2:09:52
we love you in person yeah I love you guys too love you
Transcript
0:00
there were definitely times when I was involved in encounters and then releasing them back out to the
0:06
defilement of the Playa was heart-wrenching because you don't know what they're going to choose but it
0:13
wasn't our job is we just made the deposit that we were able to make and came into God's hands
0:26
hey and thank you for joining me for my very special two-year anniversary episode it's been an amazing year with
0:32
some of my biggest guests ever including Pastor Doug Wilson laser huddle and
0:37
feminine not feminist thank you so much for being a part of it but this episode is really special it's sort of a dream
0:44
come true because my guests this week aren't famous authors pastors or content
0:49
creators they're everyday people but ones who have had an incredible impact on my life their names are Rob Katie
0:56
Barb and Andrea and they're from Camp Spirit dream who introduced me to Christ at Burning Man so please enjoy this very
1:03
special two-year anniversary episode and once again thank you so much for being part of the Renaissance of men Katie Rob
1:11
Barb and Andrea from spiritream thanks so much for joining me on the podcast thanks for having us thanks for having
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us uh you know I you guys have made such a huge difference in my life and I think everyone who listens to
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um listens to the podcast listen to my podcast and has heard me on other podcasts has heard me tell the story of
1:28
how I met you at Burning Man and the impact you've had on my life so I'm really grateful that you're taking the time to talk with me today and to share
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some of the stories um share some of the stories in the background that even I don't know
1:40
we're glad to be here yeah so let's let's start by um by allowing
1:46
you guys to introduce yourself so maybe Katie we'll start with you and we'll just go go across and you can share as
1:51
much about yourself and your story as you as you'd like to and then we'll get to the camp and and and all that
1:58
yes my name is Katie Mazza and I'm married to Rob here and I went to Burning Man for seven years
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starting in 2011 ending in 2017 and at
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was life-changing for me to say the least and a privilege to go
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awesome can you share a little bit about your testimony maybe if you guys would be willing to do that
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yes um you don't have to if yes no that's fine it would be a little long yeah just
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suggesting okay yeah that's true I know I know a couple I will say this though I Rob started going to burning man before
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I did and I had some I wanted to go I was in full support of it but I did not
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have a release to go until 2011 because I needed to face some issues in my own
2:52
life that would have hindered my
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ability to function in the team the way I needed to as well as to give to the
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people that came to see us is in the way that would be beneficial
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yeah see that's that's there's a pretty amazing Insight right there like we have to be spiritually prepared to go out to
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to do ministry like that which is so thank you for that yeah Rob and my name is Rob masla and I
3:26
am married to this lovely woman and I think what I'd I like to say I guess I
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was the original part of the original Seven that went by invitation of an
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intercessory group um from um
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oh the Midwest yeah International House of Prayer Mike bickles grew
3:52
and so their job was just to pray and then they they found out about us and
3:57
basically extended an invitation to a bunch of crazy people that would do dream interpretation or spiritual
4:04
encounters or whatever so seven of us went in and the earlier early years that
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would be starting 2004 and uh yeah those were the uh plowing
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and strange and difficult soil years trying to figure out the culture and having the culture figure out us
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and I'm I'm really happy to say God came through and we're all in one piece
4:30
yeah I'm very happy to I'm very happy to see that too yeah I had some close calls
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but we made it yeah yeah I would like to hear about some of those but yeah yeah Barb go ahead yep my name is Barb Owens
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and I'm actually I was the the newest to the it's my first year was 2012. and um
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Andrea and another friend of ours had extended an invitation for me to be on
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the team by the time I came around there were some real um good protocols in place for who was allowed to go out with
5:02
the team and just kind of a screening process to make sure that the people who went out there would do well and not get
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chewed up and spit out by what was happening out there so Andrea was actually my sponsor and um I had a lot
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of great reasons why it wasn't the right year for me to go and then God got a hold of me and really dealt with the
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real issues which was lack of faith um and I remember one of my favorite things I remember telling Rob like I I
5:28
feel like you know what have I have to offer out there and I remember him saying I find the soccer moms do really
5:33
well out there and I'm like I can do that I can go out there and be a mom and love on the people that God brings into
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our camp so that was kind of what it looked like and I actually went for six years
5:44
um we all actually retired in 2017 it was the same year that we all felt the nudge that it was our last time going
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out there yeah well was that the year that the man ran into the fire did you hear us hear about that it was it wasn't
5:57
saying here it was it was wow but you guys always left on you guys always packed up and we're out by Saturday like
6:03
you didn't stick around for the burn yeah yeah right yeah one of the things they learned in the early years was that
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uh by the time it got to that point we were done yeah our team was done with what we were
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there for yeah and I think it's really important that you said that there were protocols in place that you know there
6:20
were processes and there's a formal structure it wasn't like you were just going out there to hang out and maybe do some Ministry work like it was it was a
6:27
it's a whole thing I don't want to say it was like a business because it wasn't business like in a commercial sense but
6:32
it was a like there was formal processes in place for your for your benefit to
6:37
run the camp and everything was a very serious thing yeah that's true yeah for our protection yeah exactly in spite of
6:45
our jovial appearance there was we were serious as a heart attack yeah yeah and
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I think that came across Andrea yeah my name's Andrea berather and I
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started in 2007 went for about 10 years my story is a little different than
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Katie's I um had never done anything like that before ever in my life and I
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grew up in church so I was in like church world and Mommy world when I got
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invited to go and God made it clear that I was supposed to go but it felt like being
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thrown in the deep end of the pool and I really wasn't prepared very well but I had to learn to swim really fast
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and I went out you know very green and very scared and again I like Katie said
7:33
it was the most life-changing experience ministering out there yeah learned a lot yeah hands down
7:39
let's let's talk quickly about how the camp came together with the with the the Genesis of it was so to speak and then
7:46
I'm actually really curious about the sort of things like the chewing up and the spitting out and the processes and the learning like like because from my
7:52
perspective like I just go out to burning man you know in a Secular Progressive new age kind of world where it's like oh Burning Man is a great time
7:59
but that was the last time I was there but I would imagine going in with a completely different worldview there's a
8:04
completely different means of preparation that would be I would have to think about that now actually but I'm
8:10
interested to hear your side what it's like going um into quite dangerous territory so
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let's talk about the origins of the camp and then we'll get into what it was actually like for you guys going there personally and collectively
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yeah so um 2004 as I said uh John Paul Jackson
8:28
kind of our our mentor of sorts had this idea that he should send a team in there
8:35
from streams Ministries I'm part of and we were all a part of streams Ministries so we had this wild idea that he should
8:43
throw a bunch of us into burning man and we all looked at one another and said
8:49
but there's crazy naked people you know what are we gonna do you know confirm
8:54
but anyways we acquiesce because there was no way of saying no to John Paul he's he was a nice guy but when when he
9:03
saw something on the horizon you would go for it and we would just emulate that so we ended up going and we you know we
9:11
had we had a background in um what we call prophetic evangelism it was a
9:17
pioneering idea where we would go on the streets and look at people and just ask
9:23
God for an impression a download on who they are where they were going or
9:29
something and we would just basically say something like when I look at you I
9:34
see and that's how we made conversations on the streets and then we started going to New Age fairs and
9:42
um a few other events but Burning Man was a total immersion it wasn't like you
9:48
can go home or go in into a hotel room and decompress you have to live
9:54
and interact for a whole week so that was a game changer and Christianity was
10:01
definitely in the low low low minority numbers there yeah
10:06
um if at all in some in some cases so so there we were and the first year was
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difficult because people were they were it seemed like
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um they were testing us like some people wouldn't come out of character some
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people would you know we'd say do you have a dream we could interpret and then they'd tell us a pornographic dream and
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it was just this trying to figure out this sort of
10:35
testing thing and I remember complaining to the Lord about it and he goes actually I was
10:40
testing you the first two years to see if you would if
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um you would understand the culture and work with me to find the keys of loving
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them and working with them so that was an eye-opener for me like it wasn't just
11:02
blaming a bunch of crazy people stressing us out it's far different was
11:07
God's plan to get us in the mode of really listening and hearing with our
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heart both them and the god that we had to lean on every stinking moment we were
11:20
there so that that was the big takeaway and um
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but you know there were bright spots that even though we were the first two years were kind of like what was that
11:33
we would have these encounters and here's one I'll I'll just share one there was yeah a woman I was working
11:40
with and I I think I gave her an encouraging word something to do with her makeup how God understood her makeup
11:48
and her composition as a being yeah yeah yeah
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and burning man you never know the difference people are made up there yeah exactly but we're not making this up
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anyway so so we're going so uh
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she kind of looks at me like well that's all well good but then she just goes for the you know she just goes for the the
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artery and she just bakes these looks at me and she says how come you Christians just think you can speak at scripture
12:21
and it's supposed to change us and I'm going oh my God here we are ground zero
12:27
and and you know what what they really wanted was an encounter with Jesus
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living in us look in our eyes and see Jesus kind of thing and we didn't fully
12:39
realize that to to the degree we do now but what I ended up saying to her is I
12:45
need to apologize to you I said to her I said I need to apologize
12:52
um for on behalf of the church for judging you in what we deem is your strange
12:59
appearance or strange behavior and we've missed your hunger
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God never misses your hunger and I kind of lived off that little
13:12
experience for quite a while as a a ground zero feeling in those early years
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is not to miss the hunger of the culture spite of their weird acting out or
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whatever weird channels they might get in for spirituality it didn't matter
13:30
God was concerned about this hunger that he put in the human heart [Music]
13:36
that they were seeking to fill at that Festival but with um not the right food let's say yeah
13:42
exactly just like you yeah right absolutely it was one of the things that impressed me really early on in one of
13:50
my early years was how someone could come in and um they'd obviously been
13:55
pursuing in dark streams and yet there was this almost like clean feeling on
14:00
them and it was what I came to recognize was a genuine hunger for truth and they
14:05
were looking in places where they weren't finding it um but the the purity of the pursuit was
14:11
there and it was obvious when we'd meet people like that it didn't matter what they looked like on the outside we could
14:18
tell that there was something really genuine and true there now did you announce early on that you
14:23
were Christians or advertised at all or it just kind of came out naturally in conversation
14:29
no we we you know you know if you look back in
14:35
the Bible um it's it's kind of like Jesus wouldn't admit he wouldn't fess up that he was
14:42
the son of God you know he wouldn't fess up to all the attributes that he carried
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you know it's it's just you know certain instances he would reveal something and
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then you know that that famous line he said that Peter answered because who do you say I am he says to his own
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disciples so a lot of ways we let them figure out by the presence we carried the peace
15:08
that was in the tent the light and they would verbalize these things they would
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come and come to the entrance of our tent and say there's so much light here
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but there's so much Spirit here or so much peace here how do you do that
15:25
and talk about you know a conversation opener for us to work with them and as rich
15:32
sort of a taste and see approach because we we understand that people in the
15:39
culture come pre-loaded with a whole lot of ideas and judgments about Christians and who they are yeah so you don't you
15:47
don't you don't want to come straight out with that and and hit that wall with people so we're a taste and see you know
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we let them taste of what we had and let the Holy Spirit decide when it was time to reveal who we really were
16:02
yeah yeah I think the Apostle Paul said it well in Acts
16:08
26 17. he was talking to Agrippa a pagan
16:13
King and he's he's given a defense sort of sort of to save his life maybe a defense
16:19
of who he was what he was doing and basically he said uh let me tell you my story
16:25
and it so he tells him the story how a a great light came it was knocked to the
16:31
ground and then a voice came and it was Jesus and Jesus says why are you
16:37
persecuting me but but then Jesus gives him a commission and he says I'm sending you to the Gentiles and I think this is
16:45
what we've embraced to do this to open their eyes
16:50
and then to turn them from Darkness delay
16:56
right open there so it's as Andrew is saying we're doing eye-opening things
17:03
and it's different according you know each person is a little different right
17:08
yeah yeah I don't think a message of sin and repentance would go over so well at
17:14
Burning Man right but I mean but but the message of love because I remember being in the camp and I you may have heard me
17:20
say this or I may have said it to you guys I've definitely said it when speaking about the experiences you know I'm in this I'm in this I don't know
17:26
what the healing encounter with you guys for what three and a half hours something like that and while that's going on Barb and Katie you were there
17:32
I'm looking around the tent you know like trying to figure out who are these people because I didn't see any Buddhas
17:38
or vishnus or psychedelic art or anything like that which is pretty as you know pretty usual for burning man
17:44
you walk into someone's camp and you you get a sense like are they you know DMT you know drug trippies or are they you
17:51
know you know some sort of like new Eastern mysticism whatever and I didn't see any of that and that was really odd
17:56
for me because I couldn't quite triangulate who you guys were right and it was only that it was only the reveal
18:02
at the end wait what what are you doing here yeah and so that was a consciously
18:08
chosen I mean it would have to be right yeah yeah well it was a really beautiful thing too to see people experience who
18:14
Jesus really is yeah they have their misconceptions but to let them experience it firsthand uh it rocked
18:22
them and it would I know rock me and the encounters to watch them having this encounter for the first time with the
18:28
true Jesus with the true God who created them yeah and then of course I came up to
18:34
visit you guys for Christmas um a few months later thank you for hosting me by the way and um that visit
18:42
was probably as powerful as meeting you on the Playa because I got to see that
18:47
it wasn't just you just wear this out on the Playa for for work let's say it's like no you you live in this way that
18:53
I'd never encountered other Christians living especially in your interactions with each other and seeing your lives in
18:59
the way you treated me even off even off the Playa um we try
19:06
as it should be yeah yes as it should be yeah I agree I agree so so
19:12
um how did the camp then from its early days start to grow and and when did you
19:17
get a sense like okay maybe we should be doing this for more than a couple years maybe we should start pulling together
19:23
people from across the country and make it into like a thing and what did it look like in those early early days like
19:29
if there was just seven of you you probably didn't have a big a big tent all set up or maybe you did I don't know
19:34
what it what did it actually look like and then how did it Grow from there we had those we had those chintzy pop-up
19:41
things you could buy for I don't know maybe a hundred dollars a pop and the
19:46
wind promptly bloomed shreds the first year but this figure this is where we
19:52
learned about Burning Man Community we were we were out we're we're a day camp so that meant we would Minister uh
20:01
just to the point of exhaustion during the day but at night we would go out and
20:06
look at the sights and the art and whatnot but the wind picked up ferocious winds and dust out there and we came
20:14
back and all our neighbors were holding our tent poles down and helping us and
20:21
you know the community is valued in prized there so you know we're taking notes all the time like these people are
20:28
serious about um their neighbors you know feeding one another or taking care of something so
20:36
so from there I think there wasn't a time that we said we're not coming back from
20:43
the first time even though it may have been some difficult testing there was enough to say there's there's promise
20:51
here there are people there are people worth coming back for so there was never a time we thought we were going to quit
20:58
um the next year I think it at least doubled more than doubled and then by
21:03
the third year it was up to maybe 27 members wow the first year it was
21:09
actually 50. 2007. seven so four five six fourth year
21:15
yeah it really went crazy but it was kind of like um we we have to play with how we would
21:24
bring in new people and we were a little fast and loose at time but then we
21:30
developed a protocol that you have to sponsor someone yeah someone would vouch
21:35
for the person they're bringing in and have some accountability yeah because it's yeah yeah you had to
21:43
have the measure of character um and the Heart the right heart and
21:51
um well yeah and that actually there wasn't there was
21:58
a little formal thing about taking the art of hearing God class from streams Ministry because that covered
22:05
character being more important than gifting and and character would also include we
22:13
would include it now maybe a little broader um a little broader umbrella of do they
22:20
love well do they understand honor that they understand protocol
22:25
so all those things were became very important to us so so this art of hearing God class is a
22:32
21-hour class that just hits all the raw spots about about our Humanity sometimes
22:40
go ahead and um going back to the beginning when Rob went that first year the first couple of
22:46
years as he had said the IHOP people had invited the team to
22:53
join them and at that time that team just handed out water bottles and back
22:59
then it was bottles of water to pastors by and and would you know mostly do that
23:05
and then these guys show up and the scene begins to change the whole thing begins to
23:11
change and and those people then handed it over to the spirit dream team and they no
23:20
longer participated in in a physical way and so from that it went to not just
23:28
handing out water but getting the encounter tent and then there was the
23:34
process of adding the coffee Dome and their story line in that as well but it
23:40
kind of evolved one you know piece by piece I totally forgot about the coffee Dome
23:49
it's like if if there are touch points the first point are the people that give out water and just talk to people and
23:56
then we have a coffee Dome where if you went in there there'd be a chill space there'd be people to you know there's
24:03
space to talk a little deeper or a quiet a quiet space yeah and enjoy your coffee
24:08
some people would spend all day in our coffee now and then kind of the deep end
24:13
would be the encounter can a 90-foot military tent where we would seat we would have maybe
24:21
10 groups of two or three of our team that would encounter people like such as
24:26
yourself as they came in let me do the screen share real quick and because you sent me some photos of
24:32
the encounter tent and I can pull that up right now and we can take a look for the people
24:38
for the people watching on YouTube they can actually see the encounter tent can
24:43
you guys see that yeah yeah that's that's the tent and you can I mean and like I was saying earlier you can kind
24:49
of look around and you know there's nothing you know what is that like a Galaxy or an eyeball painting or
24:55
something like that but there's nothing in there that's like there's nothing in there that's psychedelic or anything like that it was very
25:01
um it was very uh very plain I guess you would say by contrast but like it
25:07
doesn't that doesn't mean it was ordinary in any way and so I just I think I'm not sure which end of the tent
25:12
I was at but I remember being at one end of the tent Yeah by about that time our our Decor
25:18
was becoming early Ezekiel okay so there's there's probably a bunch
25:24
of things that you're gonna have to unpack for a lot of people listening including me so let's maybe let's unpack John Paul Jackson's dreams Ministries
25:29
and art of hearing God and then early let's not unpack these things just because there's this context that I
25:35
think a lot of listeners even if they're Christians won't really have a lot of context for like who is John Paul Jackson's what is Jackson what is
25:42
streams Ministry what did he think about what you were doing in the whole thing so let's maybe back up for a second and talk about that
25:50
where to begin right yeah where to begin well John Paul is now passed away but um
25:58
streams Ministry lives on with a a new man in charge uh John Thomas but
26:06
um so John John Paul was a teacher and what we would call a revelatory minister you
26:13
know he operated in the gift of the prophetic and in in my opinion he was
26:18
um uh one of the more principled and a man who who walked in character which is why
26:26
personally my eye was attracted to him there was nothing flighty about it and he could unpack
26:33
um the meanings of what it is to live a prophetic lifestyle or just that everybody has gifts you just gotta
26:41
realize everyone has gifts they're given from God and but they need to be developed and they need to be developed
26:47
alongside character that was his biggest message and he would you know he would say that over
26:53
and over again so it's it's still alive today where I
26:58
still teaches teach those courses there are streams teachers that teach the courses understanding dreams and Visions
27:05
is another um very popular and needed course because all of humanity gets Dreams yeah
27:12
and there are few people that could interpret it with a hebraic or a
27:17
Biblical background and so we teach that yeah there's possible to do that it's it's a long
27:25
learning curve but it's worth pursuing yeah that was one of the things that um
27:31
that I think initially attracted me to going through your uh tent is because I had done dream
27:38
interpretation on my own after just a little bit of training in Jung Yan style dream interpretation like 15 years
27:44
earlier so when I came out with the Playa and the guy that I met said oh I just came from Spirit dream they do dream interpretation and healing I'm
27:50
like I probably was dream interpretation that hooked me that was like that was something I could kind of understand like oh that sounds cool I'll go check
27:56
that out yeah yeah please
28:04
well that was kind of your domain up front well yeah okay I don't want to do
28:09
all the talking but but we did we had a sandwich board it was kind of like you
28:15
know I had this idea like well we're like a um spiritual Cafe so we need a
28:21
menu board so they can see what they want and and it was just a kind of a cheap way to hook people
28:27
but but it works you know we had dream interpretation we had um encouraging encouraging words we had
28:35
healing I you know help me Healing Touch Healing Touch Destiny Direction okay Destiny
28:41
Direction and then we had spiritual encounter which became such a popular
28:47
one we started calling it free fall uh we thought of metaphors for everything
28:53
but essentially they're real spiritual experiences that we could back up in the
28:58
Bible but we didn't want to use religious language yes so and we know the culture is hardwired
29:06
for healing inner healing physical healing all kinds of stuff so
29:12
you know the combination of we well let me back up we know that the human Spirit
29:18
we all have a human spirit and it's hardwired to look for God in some measure you know
29:26
pre-salvation it's it's kind of dim but it's still looking because he put eternity in the heart of man
29:33
eternity is not a Earthly component that has to come from God so we know that people have their radar up and and so
29:41
they're comparing our methodologies of healing or
29:46
encouragement to theirs and the kind of ambiance the light
29:51
around us the feel the atmosphere the peace and that that's what worked you know
29:58
they might have re they might read the menu board but then they're in the door and they're gone oh wow
30:05
how do you guys do that I have this question like right off the bat they'd walk through the threshold and they go
30:11
how do you guys do this you know yeah and I go well let's sit down
30:19
yeah I've struggled to because I I would tell people you know the whole story in various levels of detail where I showed
30:25
up at the at the tent that my the guy had directed me to at my camp and
30:31
struggling to remember what was actually written on the menu board because I I want to say things that because I don't
30:37
remember exactly what was written there but I I want to say things that were
30:42
they were interesting to me but the language wasn't of any sort of like identifiable New Age Eastern mysticism
30:49
kind of thing right there was something about it's like I recognize the intention Behind these things even if I
30:56
don't know what any of the practices are besides you know like free fall like if I walked up with a free fall that sounds
31:01
cool or dream interpretation I know but anything else like that's that's I think the skill that you guys had developed is
31:09
how to speak in a language that the culture understands but that isn't the culture's language
31:15
and that's that's very difficult to do we're writing that one down yeah
31:21
I like that yeah and and the truth was so the way the the encounter tent was set up the reason I said that was Rob's
31:27
domain is because we had a waiting area at one end of the tent so because we had
31:32
a line every day of people wanting encounters and we could only do so many before we take a break for lunch and
31:38
then we'd have a window of time after lunch before dinner where we could only do so many so Rob and our other leader
31:45
Darren were in the waiting area greeting people when they came in and they had the menu board there so they would sit
31:51
with them and they'd say you know what looks appealing and the whole time they were kind of pinging in the spirit which
31:58
of the 10 encounter teams will this person fit with where is God directing
32:03
me to seat them so like for your encounter well I remember you saying you were sitting there waiting and kind of
32:09
talking to them and you were looking at the teams which one you thought you might see sit with and you told us you
32:15
saw our team as Katie and I and then a man named Larry and you thought oh I don't want to be seated with that team
32:20
is the exact team you got seated with I know yeah yeah so uh that was kind of so
32:26
they would kind of being worried the person belong and then bring the person the burner back and introduce them to
32:31
the team members and it's always kind of funny to me because we had our menu board and they would always say this is
32:37
so and so they'd make the introductions and they're here for Destiny Direction which we would you know take note of but
32:44
the fact is is that uh Holy Spirit guided every encounter we didn't really know where any of them were going to go
32:50
I mean we flew by the seat of our pants with every encounter because we didn't know what really the person was bringing
32:56
what they really needed but God knew every time and we learned to just flow with whatever was happening in the
33:03
spirit well we had to be open to the creativity of God because there were things that he
33:10
would download do this and we're like do what he would take us all on an
33:15
adventure yeah and we'd have to figure it out later what just happened oh yeah because he's very creative in how he reached people yeah yeah I had one
33:23
encounter my my newbie year where Andrea was the team lead and I was on a team and I won't do all the details of the
33:29
encounter but this she was doing this encounter with this woman and I'm watching and I was
33:35
super impressed because I'm a newbie and I'm just taking it all in right and Andrea just navigates this whole thing
33:40
with this gal and the gal gets this you know incredible experience and when she leaves at the end Andrea looks at me and
33:47
the other guy on the team she said well that was different and that's why that was the weirdest encounter okay and I
33:52
said you've never done that before no but she just flowed with it so beautifully I'm like wow you know take
33:58
notes Barb Andre knows how to do this and I need to know how to do it too but yeah yeah it was amazing something that
34:05
you said um the way you said that about the language thing it prompted a memory of
34:11
an encounter that I had maybe second or third year that I went and I was in
34:18
although at the latter years that I went I hung out mostly in the dome but with
34:25
you that time I was in the encounter tip thankfully but um
34:30
so I was in the encounter tent and two two different days uh two different
34:37
teams I would with two different teams and two women were brought you know one woman one day and or that morning and
34:45
one in the afternoon and it was so interesting because each of those gals
34:52
had had abortions and I had had that experience out of the
34:58
whole team the leaders you know prompted by the Holy Spirit brought those gals to the
35:06
team that I was on and and holy spirit gave me language
35:11
to be able to talk to them about principles
35:16
because they were born in an age and an era where this was natural and why did
35:23
if it was so not natural and accepted and the way to do life
35:29
then why did they feel so crappy afterwards after having an abortion what
35:34
why did things shift and their lives kind of fall apart well
35:40
as I said you know Holy Spirit gave me language that they could understand and
35:46
relate to using principles about the Creator and even though man's ways are
35:53
this creators ways are not and and creators ways and principles overrule
36:03
man's ways and so the things that we feel sometimes when we violate the
36:09
principles of the Creator impact us greatly and they they could really
36:15
uh register with that and it opened the doors for them to get some relief and
36:23
some cleansing and some healing I think that's one of the things that that uh you guys did so masterfully is
36:31
you provided that you provided real healing and relief and release and you
36:36
know I have that I have that painting Andrea that you made of Rob hugging that girl it's around here somewhere I don't
36:41
have a digital version but um maybe it'll maybe it'll pop up on my desk somewhere but you know that that you
36:47
came out and you actually offered that and you as you had said earlier Rob about Barb coming like soccer moms do
36:52
really well out there like that was Barb that was exactly what I needed you know even down to the point that like I
36:57
didn't have the soccer mom experience with my mom as we've talked about but you know my mom's name was also Barbara
37:02
and so that was no coincidences there of being able to receive and that was a
37:08
powerful aspect for me it was being able to see an image of the mother that I didn't have right and and be like wait
37:15
this is a thing right and and to the point where you I could see in my own
37:20
life God's hand at work putting me right where I needed to be in the same way these girls with you Katie
37:26
you know had what they needed to to be able to talk with you from a position where you could relate to their
37:31
experience and communicate truth in a way no one else really could yeah it's a
37:36
beautiful thing yeah so um so as people would how did this
37:42
process this protocol kind of develop like with Sandwich Board and you know obviously you would have had to learn on
37:49
the go about how this is all going to work getting a sense of like well we should just trust ourselves trust the
37:54
spirit to guide us in the right way flying by the seat of your pants and these healing encounters and not going
38:00
by any set playback set Playbook that all that all developed over the years I'm guessing yeah yeah it did I mean
38:08
Andrea brought up the word creativity how creative God is and I I think we're
38:14
more dialed into Heaven is an extremely creative Innovative place and there's things we
38:21
haven't even near tapped into and but we were being in an extreme environment and
38:28
basically our go-to prayer was help God we we get ideas I mean we would just get
38:36
ideas and try them and and also it was a community United in this Quest I can't
38:43
say enough about that that while we had leadership and sub leaders
38:49
I mean it was an open dialogue of ideas so anybody could have
38:55
an idea and we'd go yeah that sounds like it has weight on it let's try it you know so I don't know maybe I came up
39:02
with a menu but I think I did I think I had this sandwich board idea but you know there's so many details to doing
39:11
um this kind of Outreach and everything became an art form the serving of food
39:17
and inviting of guests and who to invite and um the kind of music we chose Katie
39:24
would come up with a playlist every year of um basically kind of secular songs there
39:31
were that were edging into values that we we appreciated you know what I mean
39:36
and then we could we can work with that you know so when you open yourself up to
39:42
the creativity of God and doing things differently one idea leads all of a sudden you have two ideas and then those
39:48
two ideas you have four ideas and you have those four ideas and you have eight ideas and it just mushrooms and there's
39:55
it's just Limitless the creativity and the ideas that can come and then when
40:01
you open that sphere up for God to do whatever he wants to do on that platform of creativity it's it's
40:08
blind mind-blowing yeah there were there were times when we would have the nudge
40:13
to do something in an encounter that we didn't have the theology for but we knew it was the spirit telling us but every
40:20
time we'd go back to scripture because that was always our Plumb line and we'd find the principle uh because it's it
40:27
was not about going outside of the the lines to the point where you're violating principle God's principles
40:32
ever um but there were definitely Times by the spirit when um we knew what we were
40:38
to to do and then we would have conversations later hey this happened somebody helped me unpack this and that
40:44
was part of the value of team is having the spiritual insight to be able to bounce off of each other and make sure
40:51
that we were staying in lined up with God's principles and I think that's really important and
40:56
I'm grateful to hear you say that because I know from uh I know from the
41:01
encounter meeting you guys and getting to spend a lot of time with you guys in
41:06
in Idaho and getting to know you personally but I've never really asked too many questions about the protocols
41:12
and practices and and the discipline that's involved to do something like that and still hold to your principles
41:18
still hold to your your your personal Integrity not any of you would ever lose that but you're being pulled in all
41:24
these different energetic directions if nothing else and if only by the overall feeling of the event I mean I and I've
41:31
been unable to speak to the amount of discipline that must have gone on behind the scenes to support you collectively
41:37
and individually in the conduct of that and maybe you can speak into some of those things because you know it's like
41:43
deep sea diving like you don't just go swimming down there like you have to build if it's suits and you know
41:48
underwater whatever maybe you can speak to that a little bit yeah um well let's talk about
41:55
um one thing that became a bit Central to what we did was a father or a mother blessing
42:02
um and it's something I I was doing quite a bit before I would stand in place for
42:10
the absent father or the abusive father and sometimes apologize and or sometimes
42:17
you know just say um I'm you know I'm not actually your father but I believe I
42:23
understand father God enough to impart something to you so you have to be very
42:30
intimate with people well you know you have to hold them close and you have to deal in your mind
42:36
that that this physical intimacy is just a buy the buy I'm I'm looking to reach
42:42
their soul their broken soul and their Spirit that's just aching
42:47
to be validated by a simple I love you yeah I bless you
42:54
and to do that you have to be absolutely clear in your mind like
42:59
um no this is I'm not going into any even though that that physical proximity
43:04
Is there I'm not going to go into any fantasy you know yeah about this there
43:09
is one significant time I'll just tell a brief story it was near the end of the
43:15
week we would have what we call popcorn encounters that were very quick because we had such an overflow of people that
43:22
we couldn't get to during the week yeah so we'd have people hanging out on Friday going when is it my turn so we
43:28
herded them into the tent and we told our team you know pair up do 10 minutes
43:33
worth so so I'm kind of standing there watching kind of directing a little bit
43:39
but mostly just watching and the coming a couple of my teammates me it was you
43:45
that's right that's me yeah we I'll I'll give the background and then you take your side of it so I was teamed up with
43:51
one of our Swedish teammates Malin and this young man came to us and he said that um
43:58
he was he was struggling with whether or not he was homosexual but he said every time he had a homosexual encounter it
44:04
felt wrong but yet he was so drawn to men and right away we knew what he was looking for was a father it was he was
44:11
thinking he was homosexual but what he was wanting was a touch of a father so we said hey Rob and brought him over and
44:18
told Rob and then Rob took it from there and yeah so and so taking it from there
44:25
but I just throw a a just a little tidbit here you know Jesus came to reveal the father
44:32
because you know I mean he even placed himself under that to reveal the father
44:37
and so we take this really seriously that there must be a crying need in humanity
44:44
for her father and we we know that to be absolutely true now yeah so there I am
44:49
standing with a short man that's very sincere very broken and and you know basically are you ready for this I'm I
44:57
just give him a little Spiel I'm just gonna hold you like a dad and and speak this blessing and I and I bless them
45:03
from conception and because God's original design was not that they go
45:09
astray but they know his Spirit from the beginning you know so I I just take him
45:15
through kind of stages in life and bless them and and confirm love upon them and
45:21
and um bless their design and their Destiny bless theirs their bodies bless
45:28
their souls bless their Spirits the way God intended so somewhere in the middle of it I mean
45:35
this is where God really turned the tables on me I I do this almost with you know just by the by in a sense not that
45:42
I'm not involved but I I know how to control yeah it gets very emotional yeah
45:48
two of us sometimes but this one I totally God took me in this different
45:54
place of almost like as Ezekiel said I sat where they sat I understood his pain
46:01
to to such a degree I wept his tears well as weird as that sounds I might
46:07
miss cheers yeah while I'm holding them and then we and and I and I actually
46:13
have this strange thought while I'm there many streets that I'm like God this is crazy uh it gets crazier all the
46:20
time but you know we're just both Sinners yeah
46:26
being smiled upon by a god of great grace and great love
46:31
I have somehow merged with this massive Humanity that's broken
46:36
and uh still chokes me up with you today yeah yeah so you know and and then the Lord
46:44
just took me on a little prophetic Journey where he's telescoping out from here he goes this is the effects of this
46:50
kind of thing that people that Embrace this we will meet
46:55
the culture um just the way they are the way Jesus did
47:01
and I could see it telescoping out for Generations this is this is God's
47:06
way that's just some profound experience that painting's actually hanging on the
47:12
wall should I grab it yeah please yeah please yeah because I've got the I found I
47:19
don't have it on my desk anymore I actually put it up my wall behind me but it's your version will be much better than the than the card that that that uh
47:27
little printout that you gave me that went around the world with me by the way [Music]
47:33
oh it's so lovely so lovely yeah and that was this that was the spirit of
47:39
everything that you did right and that came across and what's and and you know Andrea
47:45
what's so beautiful about that painting that you capture is like is how um impersonal isn't the word but like it's
47:51
personal but it's it's trans person it's larger than personal what's going on there you know it's it's like it's she
47:58
is being embraced by something so much larger than Rob through Rob right and Rob as well and you really captured that
48:05
I don't know yeah yeah yeah and that that was uh that was a young lady from
48:11
um well I don't know she just came in the tent and her story was her dad passed away
48:18
when she's two years old and she had this vague memory of her dad and she just
48:27
it was an ache in her heart yeah it was feeling an ache in her heart and it really impacted her
48:34
um really impacted her to the point where we Center um
48:40
a copy of that print yeah and she showed it to her family and her family's been
48:46
praying for it you know this is whole family and they were like astounded at how God met her in a different sort of
48:54
way you know so I think I'll just add something else uh
49:03
germane to our encounters um Burning Man changed us
49:10
as much as it changed every single person that came in there oh yeah
49:17
absolutely oh yeah yeah we did not know uh God could be that big yeah or that
49:25
good yeah yeah or that creative or that anything named the blank that that fits
49:31
in with the characteristics of God we did not know yeah until we went over the edge and and said yes to this crazy
49:39
event yeah yeah and so to me God reveals himself uh you know Greater Grace the greater
49:46
level of areas of sin there's great grace available and but I think there's few of us I'll just address the
49:53
Christians and the audiences few of us that have this yes of I'll go there just my only parachute is God
50:01
you know yeah I remember you guys being I remember being told my first year that we didn't the team we
50:09
didn't go out there with an agenda and I remember thinking you guys were full of it I'm like of course we do we're going out there to you know save people you
50:15
know well it took me I don't know a year or two when I finally really understood
50:21
Jesus died for all Humanity most of whom won't acknowledge what he did for them
50:27
what we were called to do when going out there was to just love on people in his
50:32
name with No Agenda with no needed outcome from it other than to offer the
50:38
gift of the love of God in whatever form that took and then it was God's job then
50:43
to take the deposit we'd made and do with it whatever was going to happen it really released off of me any need for
50:51
it's not about that it's not about having to get to you know the point of Salvation or anything like that I am I
50:57
was out there really just giving out of the gifts that he'd given me personally
51:02
and allowing God's love to just flow to these people and to bring healing and
51:08
the touch of the whatever it looked like and it was it is in Paradigm shifting experience to to lay
51:16
down all agenda and to step into that River of the love of God and just allow yourself to be swept with it and to do
51:23
whatever comes out of that place that was I think for me the thing that changed me the most
51:30
um we had you asked about what protocols we had I had to do my process was like
51:35
battening down the hatches there were a lot of things that I was allowed to do so to speak or that I did books I read
51:42
things I watched whatever until I became part of the Burning Man team when you
51:47
know God would say we're not gonna you can't do those things because you didn't even realize the doors it was leaving
51:52
open so my process of battening down the hatches and submitting to discipline in
51:58
some of these areas but the the reward of being part of that and getting to
52:04
experience the love of God like that was just I mean there's nothing like it you're just never the same again after
52:09
you really just Dive In with everything into that that flow of God's love
52:16
I just want to validate what you said about um submitting and really trusting because um
52:22
you know I came out there and we had such a meaningful experience then I came to visit you guys and you know celebrate
52:28
Christmas with you and ate bear and drank wine and you know listen to music and and then
52:35
um but you guys even though we became close friends and kept in touch while I was traveling he had to wait five years
52:40
for me to come around literally five years like Labor Day Labor Day weekend 2015 is when we met and then I flipped
52:47
to quarterly and get baptized on I didn't fly up there for that I came to visit but you know but five years later
52:53
and there was never a point during that time where I felt ever felt any pressure
52:58
or any need or any pull or anything like that you just you just loved me for five years while I've traveled around the
53:05
world doing the craziest things and then I found out later behind the scenes you guys were praying for me like oh yeah
53:11
what is he doing oh no but that's a real that's a real Testament you know to to everything that
53:17
you're saying that just to be so open-handed about it when that can be so difficult like my church does Ministry
53:24
at abortion abortion clinics here in Phoenix has a nationwide and almost
53:30
International now Ministry for that and then also with Mormon temples and they're they're very open about like no
53:35
you're not actually the one that does anything you know the Holy Spirit you allow the Holy Spirit to work through you and don't personalize it and so I I
53:42
relate very much to that but then to see that to be able to to be able to vouch for it a thousand percent that I never
53:48
felt anything other than just you know pure love from you guys and how powerful and how challenging that must have been
53:54
for you to want so much for the people that you give to including me but not just me but then having to be like put
54:01
it in God's hands yeah yeah love is patient right yeah yeah I read that yeah
54:06
yeah that's pretty good yeah there were definitely times when I was involved in encounters and then releasing them back
54:14
out to the defilement of the Playa was heart-wrenching because you don't know what they're
54:20
going to choose but it wasn't our job is we just made the deposit that we were able to make and
54:26
come into God's hands yeah God is God Is Bigger Than previously thought oh yeah well you said a really
54:33
important word there you said defilement to the Playa and that's that is strong
54:39
proper Christian language for what's for what's going on right because I think when I tell people like I you know I'm
54:45
at Christ that Bernie Manor introduced himself to me or however the phrase I use it it's that um the people who know
54:50
about burning man even the even the gauziest friendliest videos on on YouTube you know show Hedonism and maybe
54:58
not full-on debauchery but you know it's it's definitely we'll call it a very open culture right but viewed through of
55:04
course through the secular lens it's this Shangri-La kind of experience which we'll get back to but viewed through a
55:10
Christian lens you know has as much pain as there is that's very real about being there there is a lot of sin and it's
55:18
hard to it's it's it's impossible to avoid that and so when you say batten down the hatches like yeah it's all
55:24
around you everywhere and as much as people really are concerned about their neighbors your neighbors might have the
55:30
orgy camp or whatever right they'll hold down your tents and a wind but
55:37
they might be naked while they're doing it oh hello there
55:42
you know what's really funny about that is the power and goodness of God because
55:48
we would never address their nakedness as they entered into the encounter tent to sit with us we just said well that's
55:56
God's domain we're not we're not here to judge their dress or lack of it but so
56:01
we get a lot of practice making eye contact yes really good at it but you know they
56:07
would sit down and this happened so many times suddenly they'd be looking for a
56:13
covering for their nakedness and we wouldn't we hadn't said a word
56:18
you know they'd be looking for a scarf or a shirt or something and and you know it just kind of amuses how God would
56:25
work in that area conviction's still alive no matter how much yeah they try to wallow conviction
56:32
and still be alive so um I want to give a shout out to uh uh
56:38
Darren Zinn who the present leader but also uh Lisa machek who co-led with me
56:44
for several years and Reese Saunders and Scott eblin who were the early guys from
56:50
students that did it I mean they they laid some serious tracks for for us to grow
56:57
um the other thing I wanted to say you talked about protocols there was actually a real
57:03
um uh nuts and bolts protocol thing that we learned from the Native American people
57:10
uh when we first came to Reno a small Church
57:15
hosted us and as part of that church there were a Native American couple and
57:21
their their son-in-law and their their daughter and they they came up to us and said do
57:27
you want to do protocol tonight so they did this very formal uh Native
57:33
American protocol where they danced we did a friendship dance they they spoke blessing over us they gave us gifts they
57:40
welcomed us into the land and we thought that was spiritual these
57:45
Native American Believers that Bluer blew our minds a bit and then they waited and so we went to dinner with
57:52
them and and they kind of waited for the US to feed back and so basically we were
57:58
saying different forms of what was that and so the answer came back from Dan
58:04
Mosley it was leading the group and he said basically we did it backwards when
58:10
you enter a stranger's land or a tribe land you are supposed to introduce
58:15
yourself and ask permission to enter the land those these are the old ways
58:23
and uh and then bring a gift we would have a gift exchange
58:28
and so after that for about four years they brought us around to about four
58:33
different tribes and we would meet um the chief or the tribal chairman and
58:40
maybe some members of of uh the governing body or whatever and we
58:47
would buy you know buy a Pendleton blanket we do a very formal presentation and we would ask them for permission to
58:54
enter the land for um and the reason we are doing it is
59:01
um to in order to speak the message of Jesus you know and whether they were saved
59:09
pre-saved didn't matter they recognized you are doing the old ways of honor and
59:15
in fact they're God's ways you're not just assuming you have the right to come into an area now you know
59:22
you're doing the old ways and we would get the blessing every time
59:28
um and we we credit that with putting a whole different level of blessing on us
59:34
both um as the uh the gatekeeper people that God
59:41
had there originally and and also the blessing of the land
59:48
the Playa the yeah just the land in general you know the these were ancient
59:53
lands owned by the people and um so this there's plenty of scriptures
59:59
in the Bible about the land how the land actually is meant to uh give us light
1:00:04
cooperate with the sons of God and and such so uh that's a whole nother
1:00:11
layer that would be another conversation so um
1:00:16
so I wonder so for those of you who who showed up in the later years maybe Barb or Katie I'm I I had this image in my
1:00:25
mind of so you've heard about the spirit dream camp and maybe you've seen photos and I would still like to go through
1:00:31
some of the photos but you heard about the camp and so you finally take the leap to go for the first time and so
1:00:37
you're in the RV or or in the car or whatever and you're actually going into
1:00:43
the land of Burning Man and you drive up and you're seeing like the welcome home kind of sign you're going through the
1:00:48
whole ritual like just walk me through that moment of like you're actually venturing into the place that you've
1:00:54
heard about well by the time I went of course I had
1:01:01
heard the stories about going into the gate how the welcoming committee there
1:01:07
and so I was I was actually anticipating that with great Delight
1:01:13
getting down and applying and doing dust angels and all that and so it was really quite exciting I'll
1:01:19
tell you though when we got the camp up and running uh that very first Year Rob
1:01:25
did not go that year that I went because he took the year off he and Lisa had
1:01:31
handed over the leadership of the camp to Darren
1:01:36
and so they thought it best that for him to get um off to a good start
1:01:43
they would stay back and allow him to run and uh which is a beautiful thing
1:01:50
because then they well Lisa didn't come back although she wanted to but a job took her away from that but
1:01:57
Rob was able to come back and do that successfully so that's another example
1:02:03
of a transition in leadership that worked successfully in this Arena where Rob
1:02:11
could come under rocket and um and work successfully with
1:02:17
him but anyway I went when Rob didn't and so with this whole change of leadership there was a lot of
1:02:23
changes to the team and I'm just coming on new and um so there was a lot of
1:02:29
things that I didn't understand until later you know nuances of changes in leadership and I was supportive as I
1:02:37
could be um but there was a time when I was in
1:02:42
the the um the coffee Dome and so that was I
1:02:48
they were kind of putting me here and there and so I was in the coffee Dome and they had prepped me a little bit
1:02:55
that people would give you gifts maybe they'll give you stones and so on because it's the giving culture and and
1:03:01
you know be sure that you look at them and discern our what you need to do with them do you keep them and and pray over
1:03:09
them and cleanse them or do you throw them away and this sort of thing so this happened and uh and this somebody gave
1:03:16
me some little stones and I felt like they were defiled and but I was
1:03:23
new you know all of this was kind of new to me and so I went to
1:03:28
um one of the people and the the leaders in the dome and I and it was almost like
1:03:33
she didn't even recognize me she looked at those and and she could feel that defilement and told me what to do but it
1:03:40
was almost like that defilement almost closed off who I was to her almost it
1:03:47
was really an interesting interesting exchange and I got rid of the stones and
1:03:52
clints and all of that but it really um instructed for me it was quite quite
1:03:58
and so that from that experience that one experience and I went on and I
1:04:04
didn't I was pretty clear about receiving gifts and what to do with them but that first the initial one that
1:04:11
breaking the ice in that Arena so to speak was quite um well
1:04:18
striking yeah how are you going to know right like there's so much to figure out as
1:04:23
you get on the ground about how the whole thing works right under the weather and the dust and the people like
1:04:30
someone hands you some rocks like that's not gonna be the first thing on your mind right right yeah right yeah yeah
1:04:36
and so when I by the time I came around the protocols were pretty well established so I know there was some
1:04:42
years prior to me coming that were pretty wonky I've heard the stories but um I started in 2012 and I just felt
1:04:50
really covered I mean Andrea was my official sponsor but I had all these guys there was I don't know
1:04:55
either of us or something like that that went from North Idaho at the time and so I just kind of like held on to their
1:05:02
coattails and went along with things and if there was anything that fell off that was the beauty of the structure is my
1:05:09
first point of contact if I didn't understand or whatever would be my sponsor it would have been Andrea but I
1:05:15
knew because we were already doing Ministry together up here we had a dream interpretation Ministry that we'd been doing already for a few years together
1:05:21
um our whole team I just felt that real sense of covering but that was kind of my grafting in so I had a little bit of
1:05:27
an easier on-ramp on that front I wasn't as concerned about the spiritual aspect
1:05:33
of it I was more a big baby about the Dust yeah and the discomfort and True
1:05:40
Confession yes I dodged the rolling in the dust at the gate my new year I don't
1:05:46
have to do it either I didn't want to I'm like I'm not doing that I didn't do it you didn't no how did you get out of
1:05:51
it you just like say no I don't know we basically lied and then repented later
1:05:59
we we told we told them we were so shocked that two bikini clad women with
1:06:05
skulls tattooed down their backs entering our bus and we're looking like
1:06:11
we came out of the 4-H club in costumes you know we're we're going
1:06:18
oh yeah we're cool we've been here before yeah they just thought you Liars just play it cool yeah yeah but I I had
1:06:27
it was it was a good thing going in feeling that covered uh but for me um I had to be kicked out of the nest a
1:06:33
little bit um because I was I was afraid to stay step out and wasn't speaking up like so
1:06:40
the I remember one encounter I had and there were three people on the team and
1:06:45
um it was a young woman and I felt like she needed a mother's blessing but
1:06:52
I wasn't gonna do it right I'm a Noob I'm just learning and pass so right so
1:06:57
the other two people in the team they gave her this encounter at the end of it I turned to the team lead a woman named
1:07:03
Deborah and I told her you know I kind of felt like this and she said you you need to speak up more she said if you
1:07:09
feel something like that you can whisper in my ear um and that she was gonna she'd give me the guidance so that I wouldn't derail
1:07:16
and do something stupid right well I was kicking myself I was so mad at myself because I knew this girl needed the love
1:07:23
of a mother and I was feeling it in my heart and I didn't extend it and I was really upset with myself and so I just
1:07:30
prayed I was like you know what God she I know she needs this and I miss the boat and anyway I just had to entrust
1:07:36
god with it um this is a great testimony about the Synergy of the spirit that our camp operated in so
1:07:43
that night at dinner we had dinner and then I go up to the station where we're washing our plates and I overhear one of
1:07:51
our other teammates Rochelle who actually is one of our Idaho teammates talking about this young gal who came
1:07:56
into the coffee Dome she had an encounter and she was really undone by her encounter and so she went into the
1:08:02
coffee Dome just to process which was really common when people would do that a lot and God highlighted this gal to
1:08:09
Rochelle and she went over and sat with her and um held her and blessed her as a mother
1:08:15
and all I started crying right there at the dishwashing station because it was like God had God had it God was more
1:08:22
invested in her getting that blessing of a mother than I was I was invited to be part of that but God had my back and had
1:08:29
this young gals back and boy what a testimony to the Synergy of the spirit
1:08:34
um just between the encounter tent and the coffee Dome there wasn't the communication going back and forth
1:08:40
verbally between us but boy the spirit made it known what was going on in those places and if one needed to pick up
1:08:46
where someone else left off so great learning experience for me in that and
1:08:52
Faith Builder too and how often did that work with body art I was just gonna say
1:08:57
that one of the things on our menu board was inspired art and so we had artists
1:09:03
who had actually asked God for a prophetic picture and they would paint that somewhere on
1:09:10
the person's body and then they would prophesy to them about that body art and
1:09:15
it would speak right into their heart just like an arrow and so often there was such a Synergy between
1:09:22
um the different aspects of our camp is that person then would go and have a
1:09:27
regular encounter like um to go from the coffee Dome where they had body art and then go into the
1:09:33
encounter tent and the people didn't see their body or that they just got painted but they would have the same exact word
1:09:40
that they were just given with the with the picture and then they would show them oh my gosh yeah what they just
1:09:46
painted on me yeah and vice versa that would happen you know they would go to encounter first they'd get some
1:09:51
incredible word and then they'd go get body art and she would she would paint exactly what she the person just
1:09:57
encountered without knowing yeah I had a great story actually Katie and I were on
1:10:02
a team together and this was um early on and I remember you'd gotten a picture of
1:10:07
this gal that she was like a a water jug but there was a crack and so it was like
1:10:13
all this stuff in here just was leaking out it was a picture and it just kept leaking out and it was and so it was a
1:10:19
healing Journey that we took her on to heal this place in her heart where it was it was not a good leaking out I
1:10:25
can't remember the exact gist of it so she goes from our encounter and into the coffee Dome doesn't share what the
1:10:32
encounter was and meet up the team member in there who was painting on her painted a water pitcher on the scal's
1:10:38
arm wow no crack yeah and not knowing what had happened and we heard about that later and it was like mind blown
1:10:45
like yes and she her mind was blown oh yeah absolutely yeah yeah this is great
1:10:51
yeah I had to do that I've actually got the picture of the coffee Dome here let me share it real quick yeah I've got a
1:10:56
bunch of pictures actually it's here we go that's the coffee dome right yeah yeah
1:11:01
yes we've got the speakers and the DJ set up what was that no DJ we just said no yeah
1:11:09
speakers with music got it yes I created a uh the music the playlist and we would
1:11:15
just play it was uh I had a new several playlists that I could play during the
1:11:22
day and uh we played that it's a variety of Music we did have a real we have a
1:11:29
lot of wonderful Encounters in the Dome the coffee Dome one I think we all
1:11:34
remember is there and of course the coffee Dome we pray through it and cleanse it and so
1:11:41
on but still things get through and I'm sure there was one day when there's one spot one specific area in the coffee
1:11:48
Dome that was attracting licentiousness and
1:11:54
um naked yeah it kind of sensuality kind of things and and so we had to monitor
1:12:02
all that of course and so we're going hmm there's something up here and so uh
1:12:07
one of the gals had maybe it was was Rochelle I forget who it was Rochelle
1:12:12
had the sense of um we need a mom no no no she she went
1:12:18
she she tried all of her tricks okay didn't know what to do and so she went
1:12:23
to our kitchen lady named amphora and said please come help us this is what's
1:12:30
happening we don't know what to do and so amphora goes into the Dome and she's like praying going God what am I
1:12:36
supposed to do I don't know what to do and as she walks into the Dome she hears the Lord say to her children don't like
1:12:44
to sin in front of their mothers and so she felt like she was supposed to
1:12:49
release a mother's blessing over that spot and so she did that she released a mother's blessing over that spot and the
1:12:56
licenses never happened again oh wow a creative solution yeah yeah
1:13:02
yeah I think this was one of the things that I remember being really struck by is you know for me spending all the time
1:13:09
in Secular Progressive new age whatever mystical culture you know the perception of energy is very real
1:13:15
right and then and once you once I got a an understanding of that it's not something that I could ever forget or
1:13:22
deny was a real was a real thing right and so um and so I think what you guys did so
1:13:28
well is you had that awareness you had that understanding which gave you uh not
1:13:34
only the ability to have spiritual insight into what was going on around you but also to communicate with people
1:13:39
from the culture about this phenomenon that usually gets dismissed by so many other people that you can actually feel
1:13:46
energy things can be invested with the energy of of someone or something or an act or something like that but a lot of
1:13:52
people don't have that um that sense and so for you going out to burning man if you don't have that
1:13:58
sense you don't develop your that sense you'll be in real danger because it's real and then also for people that are
1:14:04
looking to communicate on that level about this way that they have of perceiving reality quite accurately not
1:14:10
always but sometimes quite accurately you know it you can meet them on the level that they're at especially
1:14:16
especially me to be able to understand that yeah the coexisting spiritual realm is very
1:14:24
real in both kingdoms yeah say more say more about that unpacked yes and yeah
1:14:32
well well you know and I I prefer the excuse me
1:14:37
put the put the weight on the Kingdom of Light God's kingdom yeah because
1:14:42
we all know too well how people get afraid of curses and and things that
1:14:48
satanists and witches might do but um listen in God's kingdom a curse
1:14:54
causeless shall not come in a scripture shall not land you know
1:15:00
um unless there is a cause and then but we have the out of repentance you know and we also know that who's given us all
1:15:07
authority over all works of the enemy you know so we don't have to be subject
1:15:14
to that we can change the atmosphere we can train the curses on ground but we
1:15:19
could also change the curses over people and we don't have to live with that stuff and when there's an intentionality
1:15:25
of 35 people on a team and a big yes in other words we're agreed in faith that's
1:15:33
a big yes it's easier to operate that way you know we're not wading through a
1:15:39
mass of unbelief one of the one of the unfortunate things about many of our
1:15:45
Christian circles is there's a lot of unbelief as to what God can do or who he is yeah so it's very hard to Wade
1:15:52
through a wall of unbelief and Jesus you know there's several times when you
1:15:59
have to take out the people that didn't believe would I think it was his
1:16:04
mother-in-law to heal the mother-in-law and said you people leave you're interfering with the ability to heal and
1:16:11
then there were whole cities that Jesus couldn't go because they did not their unbelief was so strong and you know if
1:16:19
your unbelief is really strong then you must be believing in something else like fear right so that's not good right
1:16:26
Peter's mother-in-law Peter's mother-in-law not Jesus's mother I was gonna ask I was like do I say
1:16:33
that's fine yeah they've got it yeah boy
1:16:38
I don't remember which book that was in yeah yeah
1:16:45
anyways uh we just know that it's it's our privilege and joy to change
1:16:54
call it change that sounds strange but change the atmosphere you know if it's dark we come to bring light in fact we
1:17:01
are the light of the world just our presence when we personalize that and be very
1:17:07
intentional because Jesus said it you're the light of the world yeah what does that mean that means you are radiating
1:17:14
something that changes the land the atmosphere the people around you we were also very intentional about
1:17:22
um creating the atmosphere within our camp where the presence of God would be
1:17:27
the you know the fullest and that that's also part of the story of you know the
1:17:32
progression of things is the art because Burning Man is an art festival and the
1:17:38
first few years I went we were you know the ladies in the in the camp were just decorating the tent
1:17:44
with some pretty fabrics and you know just kind of throwing it together but God put it on my heart about my third
1:17:51
year to be more intentional and create something specific and he put it on my
1:17:57
heart to do a tree of life and so he gave me the download of how to do that how to create this tree of life
1:18:03
with these you know branches and leaves hanging down and everything and it absolutely transformed the atmosphere
1:18:10
that was in that encounter tint just like uh when God gave specific
1:18:17
directions with his Tabernacle or his Temple he he had all kinds of specific
1:18:22
art he wanted created in there and then it was a place for him to dwell and when you go through that
1:18:30
intentionality to partner with god with his creativity what do you want to release in this space artistically then
1:18:37
his presence comes and and it just transformed we call it atmosphere design and by the time you came along we had
1:18:43
done the tree of life for four years and God gave us a new theme which was the visions of Ezekiel so you came in to
1:18:51
whirlwinds and rainbows and creatures with eyes all around a lot of strange
1:18:56
images Wheels within Wheels within Wheels yeah that was what I needed what
1:19:03
I needed to see say more because you had mentioned early Ezekiel Ezekiel earlier in the conversation
1:19:10
you know what if the very images from the Bible that God tells us to do what
1:19:17
if there's a whole power and ability to shift directions or motion there's a lot of
1:19:23
motion yeah you know this is just to get people thinking you know what if because
1:19:29
again that coexisting spiritual realm is because the bail is rent and we have
1:19:35
access to the Heavenly realm of God these things become more real to us it's
1:19:41
it's more than Fabric in color yeah yeah you had an encounter with that face
1:19:49
of Jesus yes I did yeah like wearing goggles yes yes he did that's the wild part
1:19:57
because you know I I I I tell the story and it would be easy easy it would be
1:20:03
easy to dismiss what I saw if it was just if it was just a face from a
1:20:08
painting like thoughts can be transferred between people right like you could be standing behind me Katie I
1:20:14
remember you had your hands on either side of my head and you could be concentrating on the face of Jesus and maybe I'd pick up on it right like a
1:20:20
carbon copy but that wasn't what it was it's like a man walked up to me wearing goggles like wearing Burning Man goggles
1:20:26
to protect himself from the dust like what do you what what do you even what do I even do with that like
1:20:33
exactly exactly yeah and that was part of like the four faces that was part of
1:20:38
what Ezekiel Saw that was part of your your decorative shift let's say yeah it was the living creatures with the faces
1:20:44
so the face of an ox the face of a lion the face of an eagle in the face of a man and you know it doesn't say in there
1:20:52
that the face of a man is a basic Jesus but I decided when I painted that to use
1:20:57
akiana's painting of Jesus as my model and it was just a sketch it wasn't like
1:21:04
a full painting it was just a sketch of a man's face but you're not the only one that recognized it as Jesus there was
1:21:10
another woman that came in and came to my my encounter group one day and she
1:21:17
wanted Deliverance she asked she plain out said I have two demons can you get
1:21:22
rid of them said oh yeah we can we can do that if
1:21:28
we're gonna do that I need to use the name Jesus is that okay with you and she said oh yes I recognized him
1:21:34
when I came in I saw him on that thing I'm like wow I never said that was Jesus
1:21:41
it was yeah it was apparent yeah I could kind of tell it was Jesus but I still remember Katie I asked you because yeah
1:21:48
you asked me is that Jesus I knew it but I was like okay I don't want to walk out of this moment this is the thought that
1:21:53
was going through my head is I don't want to walk out of this moment and then later be like okay maybe that was some guy who was the founder of the camp or
1:22:00
something like that some human some some other person right so I wanted to make sure so that's why I asked but do you
1:22:07
have that picture well in the the lineup of pictures you have that picture of you in front of the the face of Jesus that
1:22:13
manner oh yeah they'll pull that up right now let's see whoever had the camera got
1:22:19
some great pictures yeah oh man let's go through yeah so this one right this one of me on my knees yeah yes yeah
1:22:26
yeah and my and you can see like you can see the dirt on top of my head because I found my head down and you can see the
1:22:31
dust on my feet and everything yeah yeah and then when I took the picture with you that which I can see there also I
1:22:38
asked if you wanted to wipe because I said oh you've got some Playa dust and you said no I want to leave it there yeah yeah the one right above there yeah
1:22:45
this one yeah you can see it on your face yeah yeah and the and the and the gifts that you
1:22:52
guys gave the necklaces I'm wearing yeah you guys made those for the people who came and you also gave me apply a name I
1:22:58
never I hadn't I'd been three times and I hadn't been given one before yeah oh what was it oh was it
1:23:05
yeah because you're like a strong Oak yes I was uh I was definitely a
1:23:12
different version of myself back then as well which I think you'd probably see in the photo oh yeah totally very different
1:23:18
completely different and then so listen you've got this one you've got this photo here what's this this is Barb this
1:23:23
is you with somebody yeah at home with Mother's blessings yeah yeah there we go yeah loving on a burner
1:23:30
and so as as the so here's some you have some photos of Burning Man this is what the you know oh there's there's the man
1:23:36
I don't know what year that would have been but the man was still on the ground so I guess it was probably
1:23:41
2000s somewhere yeah yeah I don't know and then there's the man again oh that
1:23:48
was the da Vinci's yeah and she's Workshop Adventures yep oh man
1:23:56
yeah I mean I think for people who haven't been before like there's a lot of infrastructure that goes into burning
1:24:02
man and one of the things that I wanted to say earlier was that you know if you were doing Ministry at a place like um
1:24:07
North Korea or China like those countries you know and the cities in them they're fixed in in place and they
1:24:15
don't go anywhere Beijing is not going anywhere right you can go there and it's it's consistent
1:24:21
um from year to year day to day hour to hour but Burning Man really only exists for the public for one week out of the
1:24:28
year and it's constantly changing and it's very much while there are a lot of principles that stay the same it's also
1:24:34
a moving Target right to be able to be able to so when you talk about going into the culture like yes there are
1:24:40
consistent aspects of the culture that are durable from year to year but at the same time every year you went in I
1:24:47
imagine you went into somewhat very different environments especially as it grew like if you were there from 2002
1:24:54
sorry 2004 to 2016 I went in 2003 so I know what it was like back then and then
1:25:00
I came back in 2013 and I Met You in 2015 but that 10-year period I went
1:25:06
through inflationary growth I remember in 2003 it was like 30 000 people you could walk the whole festival and didn't
1:25:12
need a bike when I went back in 2013 forget walking anywhere and the festival was like 60 or it doubled in size so
1:25:20
what was like what was that like being on the ground year over year watching the festival grow and change it kind of
1:25:25
become that moving Target Shangri-La yeah I don't know we just sort of we
1:25:31
just ourselves you know that's true yeah we just rode with it it's like you said
1:25:37
if you wanted to go look at it when it's 80 000 people it's a lot different yeah
1:25:42
yeah I won't say though that I mean as as a Believer who sees what sin does to
1:25:50
people it is it was very disturbing to see the growth to see how that was
1:25:57
spreading and the lawlessness that was being bred out there and then also being
1:26:03
taken from burning man out into the world yeah it's it's grieving yeah
1:26:09
that's true because there was an intentionality too that we were aware of by The Burning Man leadership to do
1:26:16
forums across the world and to kind of spread that sort of gospel of uh
1:26:22
yeah the gospel of Burning Man so to speak so that's happened the weight of evil
1:26:29
was growing so okay let's let's talk about that for a minute because I
1:26:35
remember when I went out in 2003 and the festival had kind of this wild west kind
1:26:40
of spirit but there was like a when I say there's a lawfulness you know at least everyone's like we don't really
1:26:45
know what we're doing so here's some fire and here's some plywood and here's some crazy kind of lasers and art like cool yeah it's fun but when I went back
1:26:52
in 2013 it felt like the festival had quote gone pro right and then there was
1:26:58
a solidity to it and there was a permissiveness there was a darker permissiveness to it like the wild west
1:27:05
has a permissiveness but I would say it also had a sense of like experimentation within defined
1:27:12
boundaries somehow but then it felt like 2013 that it flipped and I don't know
1:27:17
how to articulate it but I did feel that the evil had grown quite significant and only continued to from 2013 2015 up
1:27:25
until up until the present day like talk about that experience because that's the that's the the discernment that I'm
1:27:32
trying to have is like I don't think everything there was all bad all the time but it certainly felt over time
1:27:38
there was more bad more of the time as the years went on sure yeah all I can
1:27:43
say is I've I'm I've always been a very sensitive person to atmospheres to
1:27:49
what's in people you know I'm I'm a Feeler and so I have to say in the 10
1:27:55
years I went I grew so much but every single year I would enter the Playa and be you know my
1:28:03
senses were accosted by what was out there and so as we'd be setting up our
1:28:08
camp I'm like oh God why am I here again [Laughter]
1:28:14
and then you know by the time we get rolling with the ministry then you're you know you're refocused on why you're
1:28:20
there again and you know and the grace of God comes over you but yeah you have to deal with that you have to deal with
1:28:26
that yeah well if you look at the 10 principles that Rob's got them printed out here the 10 principles of Burning Man I remember reading that before I
1:28:33
went out the first time and really they've got some pretty altruistic principles that the the event was
1:28:38
founded upon yeah but um what ended up happening is it just degenerated into a big orgy yeah uh so by the time we
1:28:46
retired in 2017 uh the tide had turned to the point that even the true burners
1:28:52
like the people who'd been around for a long time since the beginning of it they were having been a hard time with the
1:28:58
direction that it had gone because it they've gotten away from this kind of radical generosity radical Community I
1:29:05
mean the the principles essential core principles are not bad a bad thing but
1:29:11
what got built upon that was just yuckier and yuckier as they just got darker and darker as the years went on
1:29:17
yeah the principles were went by the wayside
1:29:22
uh and that people going really didn't consider them that much it seemed like
1:29:28
to me it was more like oh we're going to Burning Man and we're gonna let anything
1:29:33
fly yeah throw off all Innovations and just yeah you know dive into all the sin
1:29:39
yep you know that they didn't do in normal life yeah I remember one one year
1:29:45
there was a group of Ira young Irish uh
1:29:50
kid that had I think they had graduated high school whatever that is over there
1:29:55
and kind of were young beginning College when they a group of them came over and
1:30:01
one of the things that they were going to do while in the States was go to burning man it's like you know it had
1:30:07
grown worldwide to that kind of a oh let's go to Burning Man and you know let
1:30:13
experience anything and everything in it I I don't think any one of them really
1:30:19
uh um would say they they could quote any
1:30:24
of those principles yeah yeah it wasn't why they were there yeah yeah can you
1:30:30
read the principles real quick just so everyone knows what they are um sure
1:30:35
[Music] so um
1:30:41
radical inclusion No Stranger you know got uh we we worked
1:30:48
under when when we're the first year we were there we were with IHOP and the leader Randy Bollinger he was actually a
1:30:55
pastor and he actually befriended um Larry Harvard Larry Harvey the the
1:31:01
founder Visionary he befriended him I mean they became Buds and there was a
1:31:06
video that came out called Pastor on the Playa they interviewed him and and he
1:31:11
went and said you know God can work with any of these principles yep and so the
1:31:17
bigger thing as I read these is choice and how you do that people got at the
1:31:22
center or do you put your own desires at the center so radical inclusion next one
1:31:28
is gifting we're all about God's greatest gift you're all about gifting uh D
1:31:34
commodification um in order to preserve the spirit of
1:31:40
gifting our community seeks to create social environments that are un mediated by commercial sponsorships transactions
1:31:47
or advertising and I remember in the early days you have to even block lettering like U-Haul on a trailer they
1:31:55
didn't want any commercial thing at all uh radical self-reliance Burning Man
1:32:01
encouraged individuals to discover exercise and rely on their inner
1:32:06
resources radical self-expression uh unique recognizing the unique gifts
1:32:14
of the individual and no one is like you and you should have Liberty to exercise that well you can see where that can go
1:32:21
off the cliff or produce beautiful art you know communal effort our community
1:32:27
creates Cooperative cooperation and collaboration we strive to produce promote and protect social networks
1:32:34
public spaces works of art methods of communication civic responsibility we value Civil
1:32:41
Society committee members who organize events should assume responsibility for public
1:32:49
welfare um
1:32:55
makes sense I'll read that again you broke up for just a second God created when yeah leaving no Trace was
1:33:02
yeah yeah yeah our participation is committed to
1:33:09
radically participatory ethic and uh
1:33:15
I only wish churches were more like pets All In
1:33:21
and then immediacy uh immediate experience is in many ways the most important Touchstone of value in our
1:33:28
culture we seek to overcome barriers that stand between us and recognition of our inner selves the reality of those
1:33:34
around us participation in society and contact with a natural world exceeding
1:33:41
human powers no idea can substitute for this experience of immediacy
1:33:49
yeah I mean you can see yeah I mean they're they're good for what they are but definitely it's easy to see how you
1:33:55
could build anything off of that especially the what is radical self-expression because my experience of
1:34:01
going to Burning Man from secular culture was at at least by 2013 2015. it had become that however you choose to
1:34:10
express yourself is is innately spiritual and therefore
1:34:15
good so if you want to go out there and you want to and and you can be whoever you are in in the everyday life and then
1:34:22
you go out to Burning Man you go quote home right home was where you belong not the 51 weeks out of the year but that
1:34:28
one weekend of the year you're home and then you go out to Burning Man and then if you want to walk around naked and
1:34:33
paint yourself blue and get into orgies and do all the drugs and do all the stuff that is your self that is your radical self-expression your
1:34:40
self-expression is inherently spiritual and if inherently spiritual it is inherently good and that that definitely
1:34:47
grew and even to the point where it became almost expected then you know
1:34:53
back in 2003 I remember you didn't have to dress up if you did cool you know it was encouraged but by 2013 15 there was
1:35:00
like a uniform it's kind of expected you had a furry vest and if you're not doing that then you're not properly
1:35:05
participating so it was like almost this real subtle air of shaming around like no you're supposed to be crazier if
1:35:11
you're not crazy you're not at Burning Man it's like why do I gotta be that I want to be that way like I'm here for
1:35:16
different reasons but it almost it almost tried to start pulling the worst out of people and I think it succeeded in many ways
1:35:23
for for an art community who said we all have to look like a Mad Max movie yeah
1:35:29
right steampunk whatever yeah yeah who said that was a standard yeah yeah
1:35:35
so as you guys you guys would do your your ministry work during the day what was it like when you would go riding
1:35:41
around at night like I knowing what we've talked about that the day is full of so many protocols and so much
1:35:47
spiritual cleansing and so much keeping yourself safe within your own God protected space then you really Venture
1:35:53
into the the Heart of Darkness in some ways the night that burning man would be coming this is where we went yeah
1:36:00
we wanted to see the cool art we didn't go into the dark dark places yeah we
1:36:06
just stayed away from that yeah we I remember one year going to see we typically we'd want to see the man and
1:36:12
maybe see the temple um and the one year was a carnival I don't remember what the theme was but it
1:36:18
was a Carnival Carnival of mirrors yeah I mean carnivals are already creepy enough and then you throw the Burning
1:36:23
Man element at it and we went to see the man but it was amazed that you had to go through and we didn't realize we got
1:36:30
into it and it got darker and we'd always travel in groups also we didn't go anywhere Alone
1:36:35
um and then um we realized uh actually this is too too far too dark and trying
1:36:41
to get out of there um I kind of started to panic I was like looking the walls were so tall I was thinking can I climb that like I want it
1:36:47
out so bad because it was just too far it was too dark so we were we were
1:36:52
careful where we went and right yeah plus I don't know it was it every night
1:36:58
was different but usually when I would only go out maybe once maybe twice uh on
1:37:05
the Playa at night do because I wanted to see the the cars and the and like
1:37:10
they said the the man and so on but I you know once I saw that it was like
1:37:16
okay well I'm just good with chilling in our camp and sitting around and chatting
1:37:21
with people drinking some wine and oftentimes we were so exhausted yeah by the end of the day because we would be
1:37:27
ministering heavily all day I didn't want to go out I went out once just to
1:37:33
see the cool things and then I would stay at home yeah and rest I'm an old guy I want to go to bed at night yeah by
1:37:40
my last couple years I didn't go out at night anymore I didn't I don't think I went out the
1:37:45
last time there was a couple times when a couple of our team members their son had an art car yeah and he would take us
1:37:52
out and that was different because we were all together on this car and it just felt a lot more protected so that
1:37:57
was fun now there was one year when uh just down the street not too far from us
1:38:03
um there was a little camp that was showing these old movies and and we did
1:38:08
Venture down there and watched uh Princess Bride Princess Bride Monty Python the whole it was a quotable movie
1:38:14
so the expectation is that you could quote it the entire movie if you wanted to which was so cool that was fun yeah
1:38:20
yeah yeah there were a couple camps we would find that were lighter yeah uh and there was a wine Camp down the way a
1:38:27
couple years yeah and they had like corn hole in the hula hoops and um but that was pretty clean you know
1:38:33
the bottom line is if you give people the freedom to do whatever they want to do without being judged there are people
1:38:40
who will Choose Wisely and people who will choose badly yeah yeah so you find
1:38:46
it all out there oh yeah yeah and as you guys started to get more well known and people started to realize like
1:38:53
there's this thing going on over there what was that like when people started to figure out kind of who you guys who
1:38:58
you guys were I mean there must have been a moment where that happened yeah but you know I think
1:39:04
by then um they have they honored us they respected us I mean I even in the part
1:39:11
of the early years uh part of our learning curve is they would encourage us they would go oh
1:39:18
no don't leave early you're part of our community you know and we you know we told them
1:39:23
listen we're kind of done when they're going to burn the man and yeah Saturday night but but you know they they would
1:39:33
they did a lot to say you're you are part of us you're burners and indeed we had to embrace that to go no we're
1:39:40
we fit we were sent into this culture to fit in a way but but with a difference
1:39:47
you know yeah so they honored that yeah and we definitely developed relationships with certain other camps
1:39:53
there was one camp in particular Rhythm wave there were five rhythms dance camp and um
1:39:59
what's that ecstatic dance where you just kind of move your body yeah yeah uh
1:40:04
they would actually send their new team members to have an encounter and they would say go Monday or Tuesday first
1:40:12
part of the week because that we weren't as busy um and so the first couple of days it was really common for us to have rhythm
1:40:18
waiver after Rhythm weather in our encounters because they just had them all come or the people who had been before they knew show up early in the
1:40:25
week it's easier to get in and get an encounter so we would see them and then we would um we got to the point where we'd have a meal with them every year
1:40:32
um so really neat relationship developed there with that we also had people that said that told us they they would come
1:40:39
to Burning Man in order to come to our campus yes it was their privilege to come to our camp Yeah Yeah Carl or
1:40:46
people just you know get so blown away they go
1:40:51
I don't have to see the rest of Burning Man they need to go home or they just do what Andrew just said they just hang out
1:40:57
in the coffee Dome all the time yeah so they sort of adopted us yeah and I think
1:41:03
some of those that seemed like there were also some that were repeaters to our camp that also began to leave early
1:41:11
before the burning of a man because it was getting so dark even too dark for them it's like nah we're done yeah
1:41:18
yeah I completely get that um you know it's it's I I I think of you
1:41:25
guys as as odd as as odd as it sounds embodying the best principles of Burning
1:41:30
Man right like like you took it in the right direction you know rather than towards darkness and self-indulgence and
1:41:37
and uh and uh what we might call spiritual materialism or material spiritualism right like oh what I do
1:41:43
with my body is spiritual right spiritual materialism you guys actually took it in in the right direction embodied all the same principles but in
1:41:50
the direction of of light and goodness and beauty and virtue and of course God but you didn't wear God on the outside
1:41:56
like there wasn't a big cross at the front you know what I mean it wasn't it wasn't like a church it was you wore
1:42:02
these principles in who you were and what you did and let them speak for themselves in a way towards virtue so it
1:42:08
makes sense to me that people would come and experience what you have to offer and be like yeah I've gotten everything I need out of Burning Man other than
1:42:14
like oh look at the cool Blinky things and then I go home right right yeah and it all goes back to that
1:42:20
hunger inherent and so many of the people that spirituality was there
1:42:26
and basically our mission was to find it to meet it and to redefine it redefine
1:42:33
it for people over there or give it an interpretation if they didn't know what
1:42:38
they were feeling yeah that's the beauty of God I think he I think he likes doing that you know he
1:42:46
put the hunger there originally you put put the empty hole in the human heart that needs to be filled only within yeah
1:42:53
yeah with that note it's 110 and I have an appointment at 1 30. oh
1:43:00
I have a couple more questions but I mean I can take for the rest of the three of you and Andrea if you have to go by all means or we can wrap it up now
1:43:06
if you guys have to all go together but it's no problem they can carry on okay it's lovely to see you thank you for
1:43:12
thank you great to be part of this thank you good to see you
1:43:17
oh nice Kim yes oh no I said hi
1:43:23
hi Andrew yeah so I I think for me the one part of
1:43:28
my story and we'll just go for just a few more minutes if that's okay the one part of the story that I don't often talk about is how I actually how I
1:43:35
actually should we move our we look a little lopsided now exactly yeah is
1:43:41
actually how I came reorganizing the frame
1:43:51
all right anyway we feel better now perfect more balanced right feng shui is
1:43:58
actually how I came to even meet the guy who directed me to your camp in the first place so as I've I've mentioned
1:44:05
other other places I was dating this woman for a number of years and that relationship ended and this was at the
1:44:11
end of August 2015 and suddenly it's like well I'm not in this relationship anymore I'm okay with camping in tents
1:44:18
she was more of an RV kind of girl and I was like well now I can go so I just decided I felt a strong call to go to
1:44:24
Burning Man and so I went and people are always selling tickets at the last minute but the thing is I rode with a
1:44:30
bunch of people in with an RV and we we wrote we wrote Into the to the festival and the thing was no one no one knew
1:44:38
that I was coming you know so it's like suddenly I'm just showing up normally people spend a year planning what camp they're going to be
1:44:43
with and they contribute to camps monetarily and organizationally I'm just showing up kind of like as an orphan
1:44:48
right and so I'm in this RV full of guys I don't remember who's in the RV and they don't know where to park either not
1:44:54
because of me because they don't know where they're going right and so the RV as we're driving onto the Playa tries to
1:45:02
stop at three or four different locations right now and I know that I have friends I have the coordinates for
1:45:07
my friends camps are all over all over the Playa from like you know uh 11
1:45:12
o'clock you know on the clock face it's five o'clock and I think like you know three or four o'clock and so trying to
1:45:19
figure out where to park and we end up just parking the first place they could find a spot to fit their RV because it
1:45:26
was like Wednesday right and so by that point the festival's kind of filling up and finding places to park your RV
1:45:32
closer to the center versus The Rim you know is really difficult so we park in this uh particular spot that isn't part
1:45:40
of anyone's Camp it's just a free space so that meant I was closer to one Camp than another one and we were drove
1:45:46
around for like an hour and a half trying to find a place to park and that meant I was closer to one camp and then another so I'm like okay I can either
1:45:52
hitch a ride an art car all the way to the other side of the festival to meet up with one group of group of friends or
1:45:58
I can just carry all my stuff two or three blocks to this other Camp it's like okay I'll just carry my stuff and
1:46:04
see what they have and so if the RV had parked somewhere else and because I went there and set up when I did and put my
1:46:10
tent right where it was went to sleep woke up in the morning and then that morning is when I met the guy who
1:46:16
directed meteor Camp because he was an attempt next to me like if I had arrived if I had if we had parked on the other
1:46:22
side of the Playa I would I never would have I mean who knows right like you know God makes all things work right right you know what the coincidence
1:46:30
Coincidence of me of the RV struggling to find a place to park so we could park
1:46:35
in that space so that I could be at that camp and meet that guy the morning after
1:46:40
he had seen you guys yeah all those pieces lining up that got me there in the first place yeah I mean it's it
1:46:47
blows my mind yeah I love that kind of hindsight when you see the hand of God orchestrating things behind the scenes
1:46:53
that you're completely unaware of and the outcome is phenomous it is mind-blowing yeah
1:46:59
yeah and then you know just last couple questions like are you still other than
1:47:05
me are you still in touch with anybody from the um from the event or do you ever get feedback of like oh I met you
1:47:11
guys and you set my life in a whole new direction or yeah yeah I heard from a um
1:47:17
a guy that he lives in New York City he had a radical in common with God uh the
1:47:23
year we were with him um yeah he just was wondering if we were going and
1:47:29
um I don't perceive you know it was a slight chat and he was getting ready to
1:47:34
get on a plane to come here it was like a last minute getting ready to go to burning man it was a last minute thing
1:47:41
so we didn't carry on a big chat but yeah I thought it was significant he got
1:47:46
in touch yeah there was a one man from Rhythm wave um named Rich actually I was involved in
1:47:54
an encounter with him it was my newbie year and coming to find out it was his also and Rob had been telling me
1:48:01
there'll come a moment when the penny will drop which is that moment when you just it's like something in you just
1:48:09
grasp into what's happening there the move of God and um it was in the encounter with Rich it's when it
1:48:15
happened and um I was undone by it and he was undone by it he went over in the coffee Dome afterwards apparently and
1:48:21
was in there weeping and crying and anyway the next year he came back for an encounter and randomly was seated with
1:48:29
my encounter team and it was that moment of recognition and excitement to see each other well after that every year
1:48:35
when he came he would actually ask to be seated with me and watching the process of him coming to the Lord over the years
1:48:43
how so the encounters that he had with us were significant touch points so he
1:48:49
and I still keep in touch Loosely you guys ran into him randomly at a Native
1:48:54
American uh event that you guys went to yeah yeah um and then also there was one year
1:49:01
where there was this young German gal that came to our camp and she had come with her sister and her sister was
1:49:08
wholly embracing The Burning Man experience and this gal was completely freaked out by the Bernie Mac experience
1:49:14
and ended up coming I think every day for an encounter um as she hung out in
1:49:20
the coffee Dome a lot we were a safe space for her um she and I have been communicating a little bit also which has been really
1:49:26
cool so um I know and there was a maybe not so much now but um for a few
1:49:34
years there was a another gal in San Francisco and she might be in touch with
1:49:39
some of the other uh team members yeah uh yeah and Shannon and yeah yeah
1:49:46
I think there's some of the other team members that are in touch with some of
1:49:51
the people they came across as well yeah like this yeah so you know it's one of the things that we've learned actually
1:49:56
through the ministry um that I mean me learning it through the dream interpretation Ministry you
1:50:02
guys had already had a lot of experience with that is the whole thing of God entrusts us with this whatever
1:50:07
Encounters in front of us are responsible for that and then beyond that it's up to God where he's going to take things so learning to release
1:50:15
to God the responsibility for what happens after that yeah um because like
1:50:21
I said it's pretty hard sometimes to you know watch them walk out of our encounter tent back out into whatever
1:50:27
was going to happen out there but uh we just you know would do what we were called to do in the little time that we
1:50:33
had with them and then beyond that it's up to God you know and I learned so much also about the the reach of God's arm
1:50:40
you know if if he can direct people to our camp at Burning Man to get that
1:50:46
significant of an encounter he can do it anywhere yeah yeah exactly
1:50:51
and I just one one more question is is uh I don't I don't want to ask but that means that I that I that I I have to ask
1:50:58
is that I want to walk through my encounter through your eyes because I've told the story through my eyes so many
1:51:03
times and I think about it all the time so like just just walk through like this guy shows up in front of you in like
1:51:10
three and a half hours later and then five years later if there's anything you want to share for that that um yeah
1:51:15
please feel free you know for for from my perspective as
1:51:21
I was thinking about this I I loved how it unfolded because I could see uh when
1:51:30
you sat down we get started and you know I could I could feel and sense and see
1:51:37
um your and feel that that thing in the spirit where you're you're coming
1:51:45
forward and you're sharing some stuff and then you pull back this back and forth and how how much can we go and it
1:51:51
was like almost like an onion you know like we get through
1:51:56
one thing and you go wow you kind of be really impacted and then yeah yeah I
1:52:01
want some more and we would just keep going and I remember it was a beautiful
1:52:06
thing um and I remember which I really highly
1:52:12
value this will because not everybody would do this but when that point in
1:52:18
time when you said uh I forget the words that you use but basically you were
1:52:24
talking about your relationship with men and father figures and so on and and uh
1:52:29
questioned Larry yeah and I thought that was brilliant I was I still to this day
1:52:34
it's like that was so cool that you had the courage you had the fortitude go no I'm
1:52:41
here now and I'm not gonna bail because I'm I'm questioning this guy's
1:52:48
intentions or whatever and you just brought it out and that gave Larry the
1:52:53
opening to be able to express his heart to you and I just thought that was a beautiful beautiful thing and I loved
1:53:00
how you how that common that coming forward and coming back and this whole
1:53:06
thing and and going yeah no that was good I think I can take some more let's go yeah yeah yeah yeah your
1:53:13
voraciousness came through in that encounter yeah you were actually an easy encounter in that way because of your
1:53:21
hunger or your willingness your openness uh that we definitely had encounters over the years where we were really
1:53:27
having to try to draw people out and you were there to you were like bring it and
1:53:34
I just and the of the unfolding is a great way of saying it you know we we
1:53:40
wouldn't know it was kind of a weird sensation to be sitting in our seats and waiting for someone to be seated in
1:53:45
front of us like from one encounter the next we had no idea idea what was going to be seated with us and I would always
1:53:52
try to guess you know like you were saying you were looking and seeing which team you want to be with I would try to guess like okay which one are they going
1:53:58
to seat next and yeah I was almost always wrong but anyway not knowing what was going to happen and then to have you sit down with just your um
1:54:06
just openness and hunger and um it was an incredible faith-building encounter
1:54:12
for me and probably for you also just walking through the whole thing and then when you shared that thing about seeing
1:54:19
Jesus with the dust mask and the goggles that was kind of one of those things
1:54:25
that kind of like oh gee like he would show up I mean on the plyo full gear you
1:54:33
know so we're getting wrecked right along with you in that encounter it was amazing
1:54:39
when uh when I had that that inspiration was like just dropped to take you over
1:54:45
and and lead you over it's like yeah take him over and lead him over and introduce him and it was like that whole
1:54:53
thing was like almost as I think about it now it's almost like a slow-mo play I
1:54:59
Can Read revisit that and it was such it impacted me profoundly as well as you
1:55:06
hit the floor you know you just hit the floor and and coming undone there and
1:55:11
like I was coming it was a powerful powerful moment uh
1:55:18
enveloped with the infused with the power of God in in that moment and who
1:55:26
you can't help but be wrecked basically and that was a powerful moment for me as
1:55:32
as well as for you it was so so I'm so I feel privileged to have that
1:55:39
moment with you mm-hmm yeah and then having you come up here for Christmas yes and um I remember I
1:55:47
don't even know how many times throughout the course of the time you were here you kept grabbing your head and saying too much goodness too much
1:55:55
goodness you couldn't process what you were experiencing
1:56:01
um but you know when you see somebody encountering the the reality of the
1:56:07
bigness and the love of the father and you see them like trying to even process
1:56:12
and like their physical body can't even handle what they're experiencing it does
1:56:17
something to you too you know it's like a it refreshes our own faith to see that
1:56:22
kind of a thing and uh what a a joy watching your journey and um I remember
1:56:29
you bringing up the thing about traveling and you had this in your heart uh to do this traveling and so Katie and
1:56:35
I as moms we're like well why wouldn't you do it like blessing you to go and explore and to live this stream not
1:56:44
knowing it was going to be this five-year journey into every possible spiritual
1:56:52
experience and Katie and I have talked about this I had a lot of oh God oh God moments reading your Facebook post and
1:56:59
Katie said she's just had a lot of faith I did I I had the Assurance I mean it
1:57:04
wasn't like I was happy you were you know I was like oh yeah he's gonna try that it was like no I just had this
1:57:11
assurance that that uh Jesus was with you and that he he wasn't gonna
1:57:19
let you go yeah that he was covering you somehow he was protecting you and I was
1:57:25
like I just have that faith and that Assurance even though it's like I'd squirm a little bit he's doing this okay
1:57:31
no no he's God's got this yeah yeah I remember you you uh telling the story
1:57:38
about I think you might have messaged just about it you were in I think it was Australia and you were in some town that
1:57:45
was known for its new age offerings Iron Bay maybe okay you're walking down the
1:57:50
street and there was a sign on the street prayer or it was something like that yes the prayer room yeah yeah yeah
1:57:56
and when you share that story it's like okay okay God's got it God's got it he's
1:58:01
okay yeah thank you for reminding me about that yeah there was Byron Bay is like it's like Sedona or Bali or Goa or
1:58:09
something like that and then I walked it I remember there was a prayer sign I don't even remember I remember what the denomination was or what it said but I
1:58:15
did go I did did go in there and you guys were with me like I was messaging you regularly you know on on Facebook
1:58:20
the four of you like we were adding chatting regularly yeah good and then
1:58:25
and then all of a sudden we get this message I've traveled the world and experienced all this and come to the realization
1:58:32
that Jesus is the truth it was like yeah yeah he stressed us
1:58:41
oh I mean my faith went through that just watching what you'd been through
1:58:46
and God just guiding you through it all really incredible well you know I
1:58:51
probably haven't told you this part of the story Rob but this is the part that you play into is you know so I met you
1:58:57
guys on the Playa and it was it was that moment with Larry that I was really stuck on was like I was I was projecting
1:59:03
he had some judgments towards me and it was just strictly coming out of me but I was like I'm not going to be able to get
1:59:09
past this and so it was a real maybe a 10 or 15 minute period where it's like okay this is in my heart I'm either gonna say it or not it's either gonna
1:59:15
stop either I'm gonna either I'm gonna give in to it and stop and leave or I'm gonna speak it and so I spoke it right
1:59:21
and that was a profoundly healing go ahead yeah let me just interject because I just reframed that here in this again
1:59:28
and that was a masterful cooperation with
1:59:34
Holy Spirit on your part because you brought something to the light most people go oh I don't want to
1:59:41
bring that I want to bring that up but you were honest you just brought it to the light you weren't vindictive or you know didn't have an edge you just
1:59:47
brought it to the light and that gave Larry um that opening to say oh no this is my
1:59:55
heart let me let me put you at these so two bits of light coming together you
2:00:01
know and if only we all would do that more in our daily lives more more
2:00:08
problems that get resolved like I'll give you a chance to speak now you know I'm struggling with this judgment I'm
2:00:15
not sure if it's right or wrong please speak yeah well that was the thing is I had to get my get my hands around but
2:00:21
there's a picture forming by the way of like how um how I guess providential it is that it's
2:00:28
was the four of you on the call today and then I wish Larry could be here but you know I'll speak I'll send him a message and we're done but like you know
2:00:35
uh but Larry had such an important role to play all four of you did but Larry's role because I'm sitting there for 15
2:00:40
minutes like struggling with us how am I going to express this and I'm having to separate like I'm having this projection
2:00:47
moment I'm not aware that it's a projection like am I actually feeling something and so I'm wrestling with it
2:00:53
like okay I've got to separate myself from it and find the right way to speak it in a way that isn't confrontational
2:00:58
or it's like okay I just need to check this out real quick like getting my hands around it like that to say you
2:01:04
know because I had announced that I wanted to travel and that I wanted to travel the world and what I was experiencing
2:01:11
um uh was that like he was judging me for that like oh who's this kid to do this privileged kid or whatever
2:01:17
something like that and that was that it was my own voice but I couldn't hear that it was my own voice I was projecting it onto him and so that I had
2:01:23
to take that out and be able to get it to the point where it's like okay this thing is happening I need to check out whether it's real or not and what I was
2:01:30
actually scared of was him be like yeah it's real it's like I don't know that was the fear right yeah right yeah right
2:01:37
but to be able to but to be like and I'll never forget the way that he said like no I don't feel that way at all I'm
2:01:44
happy and excited for you I was like really right well you know the people
2:01:49
who are listening to this podcast they know me in a certain way now but I was not always this guy like I remember I
2:01:55
had had this dream in my heart to travel for 15 years by the by the time that I met you guys almost 16 years and I had
2:02:02
to ask you guys for permission I had to ask total strangers for permission to to fulfill my own dreams and you guys I
2:02:09
remember Barbara I think you and Katie you guys looked at me like you don't need to ask us for permission but I still needed to ask right and the I and
2:02:16
that's completely alien to the way that I am now but that's the guy that I was back then because I was carrying this
2:02:22
internalized judgment that I needed to be able to get out into the space between me and Larry and then also Barb
2:02:27
you and me like the stuff that I had around mother and stuff like that to be able to separate that because I remember
2:02:33
you saying so meaningfully like no it's my job as a mom to let my son go like
2:02:38
I'm not supposed to hold him here forever like of course it breaks my heart of course it hurts to send him out
2:02:44
in the world but that's still what I have to do as a mother and that was not my experience of mothering at all and
2:02:50
that you had my mom's name Barbara that you offered that experience that was like what like that's what a mother is
2:02:57
you know and so on the same so you had a piece of it and Larry had a piece of it as well yeah thank you for sharing that well
2:03:05
that's uh that uh that fills it out
2:03:10
we knew some of that but you filled it out now even more and and thank you for
2:03:16
doing that you're welcome thank you I mean it was the space that the three of you created yeah because I was hungry
2:03:23
for it but while you're while you're doing the healing work with me I'm also testing you because I've done so much
2:03:29
healing stuff work do these people know what they're doing you know what I mean like they know what they're doing okay let's let's you know and there was a
2:03:36
point at which the ball just starts rolling downhill you know when the really deep stuff around mother and
2:03:41
father starts coming out you know that really liberated me to be like oh wow you mean like I can leave leave the
2:03:48
mother energy and go be myself and travel the world and and I can depart from this father energy and like no it's
2:03:54
okay and free myself like that was very powerful for me but there's no way that you guys would have known what was going
2:04:00
on behind my eyes yeah yeah yeah yeah and just really just the piece that you
2:04:06
had Rob is that um I've got it excuse me one second
2:04:16
oh yeah yeah yeah yeah because when I got back from my travels
2:04:22
the day I got back December February 2020. the day I got back you had shipped
2:04:29
this to my friend Jeff and I arrived into San Francisco
2:04:34
and he uh to stay with him for a couple nights and pick up my stuff and move to Phoenix the day I got back he put this
2:04:41
book into my hands simply Christian by NT writing which you had sent to me right and so now looking back I
2:04:47
understand that I met Christ on the Playa through you guys with you guys and he sent me on
2:04:54
this adventure to go and do all the things Ayahuasca you know the kumala Hindu
2:05:02
festival vipassana meditation all this different New Age stuff and medicines to go experience it all and to go do all
2:05:09
these things and when I got back Christ was waiting for me yes
2:05:14
because you sent me this Rob as a gift yeah yeah
2:05:19
thank you it was it was God's timing you know and you know another wrinkle to
2:05:25
that is uh you'd had so much experiences even including ours on the planet
2:05:33
um you needed some teaching yeah which is valid Jesus sat and taught so many times in the Bible he didn't just preach
2:05:39
or do Miracles he taught them principles of the Kingdom so so God has that for us
2:05:45
and I think that was your timing like you were ready yeah you're ready to be taught
2:05:53
old Chinese proverb when the student is ready the teacher will come you know
2:06:00
but God sent a book your way he sent a lot of blessings my way
2:06:06
yeah I'm like in tears here just um marveling that we
2:06:13
get to enjoy and see and and Marvel at
2:06:20
this transformation the you know you're not just your transformation all of us but as we're been recounting uh for the
2:06:29
last hour and a half or whatever it just is so wonderful
2:06:35
how God Works things out because he says my ways
2:06:41
are not your ways your ways are not my ways and I and so hearing all of this
2:06:47
and and hearing more and more you filling out your own story
2:06:53
um I just I just can't help but fall more in love with God he's so I love his
2:07:00
intricacies and his his creativity and just how cool he is amen
2:07:07
one other little piece of that real quick okay so the cover of this book simply Christian this
2:07:14
is caprianga which is the northernmost point of New Zealand which is which is a very special place
2:07:21
to me for my travels New Zealand and this place so when I got back having moved here from New Zealand
2:07:28
uh this book put in my hands from you rob as again I get chills that's amazing
2:07:37
yeah wow that's incredible yeah
2:07:44
oh God yeah he's good than previously thought
2:07:50
yeah right yeah oh we make him so small yeah this keeps getting bigger yeah
2:07:56
answering again God do you see me of course I do yeah yeah
2:08:02
well thank you all so much this has been a real blessing of a conversation after after many years of blessings of uh
2:08:09
friendship and fellowship with you guys thank you so much yeah you're welcome to have the conversation with you and yeah
2:08:15
relive the moments yeah don't be a stranger come back up here yeah or maybe
2:08:20
we'll get down there we'll see yeah yeah anytime and I I definitely have some people that I want to come visit up
2:08:26
there in Idaho as well yeah do you uh are there any place that
2:08:31
um that you send people for more information about you and or streams Ministries or any of the things that you
2:08:37
do online and know that you are doing dream interpretation online for a while wow that was more a factor of covid
2:08:44
um most of the work we do is pretty local um yeah Spirit drink Facebook we do have a
2:08:51
Facebook page where we put stuff in I mean it's just really for like our local dream interpretation Ministry that we do
2:08:58
um um yeah Spirit dream North Idaho yeah I
2:09:04
mean if somebody wanted to get in touch with us that would be the way because we do monitor that page so Spirit dream
2:09:09
North Idaho on Facebook we don't mind questions yeah put kindly yeah
2:09:15
Pearl calls everything remember yeah that's right yeah yeah I mean your your
2:09:20
everyday everyday people like there's no you know great magic to it in that way
2:09:25
it's like you're you're people who took on a a pretty brave and pretty bold calling to go uh right into the heart of
2:09:31
some pretty difficult and Dark Places and uh that's you know but that doesn't mean there's any greatness it's just
2:09:37
it's the it's the small things that confound the big things right yeah act
2:09:42
the privilege of getting to be part of what God's doing thank you all so much yeah thank you
2:09:52
we love you in person yeah I love you guys too love you

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