0:00

that now he has to relearn everything he has learned and then take that oratory

0:05

skill that debate skill do you see it that writing skill and then use it for

0:11

Kingdom purposes those are very natural gifts that by the way some men out there

0:16

have as plumbers electricians CEOs CFOs Finance guys you name it salespeople we

0:24

can transition those very natural gifts that we were using for our purposes and

0:29

transition him into God's gifts that he has given to us to use for his

0:43

purposes hello my name is Will Spencer and welcome to the will Spencer podcast this is a weekly Show featuring in-depth

0:50

conversations with authors leaders and influencers who help us understand our changing World new episodes release

0:56

every Friday my guest today is Vince Miller an author and speaker who's dedicated nearly three decades to Men's

1:03

Ministry he's written 21 books for men and reaches 100,000 people daily through his Daily Devotional and his new book

1:10

Essential Elements forging Godly men is genuinely one of the best works on masculinity I've ever encountered and if

1:17

you've been listening to this podcast you know I don't make recommendations like that lightly my own Journey with

1:23

masculinity began in 2001 during a college psychology course at first it

1:28

was personal I wanted to understand what being a man meant for me as someone who never quite fit the football and frat

1:35

boy model my culture presented as the only valid expression of masculinity then as I grew more comfortable with my

1:41

own strengths as a man my focus shifted from personal to social cultural and

1:46

political implications because I discovered I wasn't alone in asking the questions I was this then led me through

1:53

two worlds of masculine thought which all compare using the familiar but perhaps surprising metaphor of Goldie

2:00

and the Three Bears the first world I encountered was men's inner work exemplified by various organizations

2:06

like the mankind project which were focused on exploring men's emotional Landscapes these groups excel at guiding

2:13

men through their inner lives guilt grief shame and what our culture calls trauma however they struggle with

2:20

conflict resolution when someone wrongs you they don't ask what moral principle was violated instead it's always how

2:27

does that make you feel they conflict not as a matter of right and wrong but

2:32

as an opportunity for self-reflection while there were valuable lessons to be learned there this approach creates

2:39

passive men unable to assert healthy boundaries in other words the porridge was too cold then came the manosphere

2:47

including the red pill and pickup culture these men emphasized assertiveness whether in financial

2:52

Pursuits physical fitness or relationships often to unhealthy extremes but they completely rejected

2:59

the in World emotions those are weaknesses if someone wrongs you the

3:04

solution is to become stronger and wrong them back harder no higher law just

3:09

jungle law their porridge was too hot now I've been watching these same extremes play out in Christian circles

3:16

creating a devastating divide on one side passive men hide behind servant

3:22

leadership while on the other a rising tide of manosphere style thinking promotes Dominion with hardened hearts

3:29

men are ruining their careers and reputations by running into one ditch or the other this division makes no sense

3:37

because unlike either secular extreme we have an objective standard in Christ a

3:42

Transcendent moral law and a just God who convicts us of sin while guiding us

3:48

towards righteousness and through the narrow gate and lately I've been wondering why doesn't anyone seem to get

3:54

that that's why Vince Miller's work stands out so powerfully to me and has been an answer to quiet prayer after

4:01

reading Essential Elements forging Godly men I realized here was someone getting it just right Vince acknowledges the

4:08

objective reality of righteousness and sin in the world both what we commit and what happens to us he recognizes our

4:16

need to address unrighteous social circumstances but that we have to start with the condition of our own Hearts

4:23

first with 30 years of experience nearly 100,000 YouTube subscribers and 21 books

4:29

C covering everything from personal finance to physical fitness Vince brings tested refined wisdom to this critical

4:37

conversation meanwhile other men appear to be burning their houses down in the quest to post the next hot take to get

4:44

ahead of a political issue or appear a certain way to a certain audience and build their clout influence and more to

4:51

that I say no none of that the challenges of being a man today are too

4:56

wide too far-reaching and too consequential we cannot take our eyes off our

5:02

sanctification as men if we hope to make a bit of difference in this world and it seems to me that Vince gets that sharing

5:09

and embodying the answers that I think men need to hear now friends if you find Value in these discussions I need three

5:16

things from you first subscribe and hit that Bell icon for notifications second

5:22

leave a thoughtful comment not just great video but your actual insights and Reflections and third share this video

5:29

with someone who needs to hear it you can support this independent platform through our substack or buy me a coffee

5:35

links in the show notes also a quick note before we begin if you'll recall in 2023 I was offering mentorships for

5:43

Christian men I loved that work it brought me real Joy but I also discovered that I needed to work harder

5:49

to put Christian foundations under it shaking off some of that men's inner work and manosphere thinking that I had

5:55

absorbed so I folded up my one-on-one Men's Ministry about about a year ago well I'm thrilled to announce that those

6:02

mentorships will be resuming shortly featuring a blend of biblical counseling to help men resolve the destructive sin

6:09

issues that many struggle with alongside wisdom tools that I've developed to help

6:14

men make thoughtful informed decisions in their lives households and careers I

6:19

also now have a board of directors featuring to experienced and faithful pastors who will be my accountability

6:26

providing you security that I'm not just some guy doing this work on his own even better my programs will be more

6:32

affordable as well I cannot tell you how excited I am to be doing this work again

6:37

it's what I've wanted for a decade more information will be coming very soon with the launch of my new website but if

6:44

you're interested in one of those programs now please email me at info@ renov men.com and we can start the

6:51

conversation today I cannot tell you how excited I am to be doing this work again

6:56

it's what I've wanted for a decade more information will be coming very soon with the launch of my new website but if

7:02

you're interested in one of those programs now please email me at info@ renov men.com and we can start the

7:09

conversation today and please welcome this week's guest on the podcast the host of Vince's daily dvo and author of

7:16

essential elements forging Godly men Vince Miller Vince Miller thanks so much for

7:22

joining me on the will Spencer podcast I'm excited to be here brother good to meet you and great to have a

7:28

conversation right I have been so looking forward to this I have your book here Essential Elements forging Godly

7:36

men and as I said just a minute ago when we first connected I've read many books

7:41

about masculinity and I've read many books about Christian masculinity this is by far one of the best I've ever read

7:47

and it's definitely the best book about Christian masculinity that I've ever read I definitely encourage my audience to to go out and pick this up and that's

7:54

why I've been looking forward to this conversation well I am humbled that you will say that because a lot of is just

8:00

my stories and God's story right and how they intersect and but I think that was what

8:07

lent the book such gravitas like you didn't have you didn't seem to have any hesitation with saying the moments that

8:14

were difficult for you where you had messed up very very uh very open about that the moments that were meaningful to

8:20

you but most importantly was the lessons that you took from it that I'd never really heard anyone frame in quite the

8:27

same same way before so I felt it was just a very rounded very accessible book that didn't as you say didn't talk down

8:33

to men um but it didn't butter them up either which I really appreciated yeah I know it's go God is

8:41

always writing a story on our hearts will and sometimes we think that that's

8:46

our story but it's really just his story written on our hearts that he wants us

8:52

then to share and I know some men have a lot of Shame about that story but if we

8:58

can move through that repentance reconciliation shame phase quickly and

9:05

get to the the next stage which is discipleship discipl making leaving a

9:12

legacy all that kind of stuff using our gifts Etc it becomes a a powerful moment

9:18

and if we can mature past some of the wounds we will see that just like Paul's

9:23

story if you read the New Testament his story was all reshaped maybe about 10

9:29

years later when all of a sudden Barnabas came and got him and he just begins sharing his story that's all he

9:35

did throughout Asia he just shared his story over and over and over and over again and and it stuck man and it was

9:42

powerful and planted churches and revolutionized major metropolitan areas

9:47

and and uh established churches and and actually wrecked some people's lives of

9:54

course too along the way yeah in good ways but let's I want to Focus for a second on you said

10:01

repentance reconciliation and shame now I I've of course repentance and

10:06

Reconciliation are really important parts I've never heard the shame part addressed but this is something that

10:11

I've encountered in my work with men who go through that repentance and Reconciliation process but they just

10:17

can't let it go and perhaps forgive forgive themselves maybe that seems tied to what you're talking about so let's

10:23

let's focus on that for just a second because this is just one of the many Frameworks you put forth a couple others

10:28

in the book as well that I thought were really fresh takes on some very common

10:33

problems yeah I mean I think we all understand men to some degree but I

10:39

think one of the big issues that men have is working through

10:45

this silent voice of shame that imprisons them to their past

10:52

now don't get me wrong I know some of us men have lived harder pasts with with

10:58

more con quences but even so the renewed man the man with a new

11:05

identity the man who is called son he he he needs to work through that that's is

11:10

where the discipleship of the Mind the renewal of the Mind begin to take

11:15

hold and if I read the New Testament text correctly and understand what Jesus

11:20

did on the cross he bore our shame for us taking and removing that shame so

11:26

that we might stand Shameless before God but I just don't think many men navigate

11:33

through that very well they they love the idea as Jesus as Savior like saving

Living Shame-Free in Christ

11:40

them from their circumstance but to really Embrace Jesus as Lord you know

11:46

controller and leader dictator of of all of our life whom we serve then we have

11:52

to adopt a mindset of a servant and a slave which means that we rid ourselves

11:58

of really all shame but a lot of men it takes a lot of time sometimes to work

12:03

through some of those things I mean you you do counseling you understand this it just it's a lot of work on those demons

12:10

right drawing them out addressing them and then learning to forgive ourselves

12:15

but I think the next part of the equation is also understanding that some people are going to weaponize our past

12:22

shame against us and they're going to resurrect those demons right and then we have to speak back to them truth TR to

12:30

make sure that we're not just picking up that old shame again and and all that old bondage and and that those shackles

12:37

that have been tied to us we have to break free from them in hopes that we can live really in that identity of

12:44

Christ and live a shame free life so it's it's a little bit it's it's somewhere between the our feelings about

12:51

our past and the actual consequences of our past because the consequences could echo on for many years or or perhaps

12:58

much longer that is a very different thing than how we feel about the past if we're redeemed men is that kind of about

13:04

right yeah you know it's exact I think you as a as a counselor you found that

13:09

little fine line right there which is good but let me just add one little Nuance to it it's embracing the biblical

13:17

truth what it says about us that is true not ignoring the shame but working

13:23

through it so we come out on the other side with a renewed identity and and this is the hard work I I think a lot of

13:30

men never do I I wish they did this more we we should be more and I can tell you you're this kind of guy we should be a

13:36

little bit more reflective we should work to disciple our mind a little bit more and our soul

13:42

and and address those feelings understand them work through them ask the why questions and I'm afraid that a

13:49

lot of guys don't really get to that point in their Christian walk I'm not shaming them right now they

13:55

just don't push through that part or no one's ever taught them how I guess will that that could be another reason

14:02

why and and that would be so we've already just dived right into a great topic but maybe we can back up and talk

14:08

a little bit about the ministry now you've been doing Men's Ministry for 30 years did I understand that correctly

14:14

and so that's praise God for that thank you and maybe you can talk a little bit about how you got started and how this

14:20

ministry has grown because understanding the global Rebirth of masculinity which

14:25

we talked about I first identified the the movement beginning in the in the secular world and it seems to me there

14:31

hasn't been as much of a push in the Christian world but then to hear that you've been doing it since you know for 30 years since 1995 is I'm guessing

14:39

that's very inspiring to me so I'd love to hear more about the origins of that and and sort of as the as the ministry

14:45

has grown yeah so the origin of it began because of my grandfather's influence in

14:51

my life so between the ages of about 15 to 20 I moved in with my grandfather my

14:58

biod dad was gone on my mom had been through her my second dad so her second

15:03

husband decided that she wasn't going to marry anymore and then my grandfather

15:08

stepped into my life when I was about 15 he came over to the house one day he sat

15:14

down with my mom and could tell that my mom was very dejected about raising me

15:19

uh she was giving up she knew I needed a man in my life and she knew she didn't want to remarry because she could see it

15:26

its effect on me so over a few years she had a lot of boyfriends in another house which isn't that helpful either yeah but

15:34

my grandfather just came over one day and sat down at the kitchen table and said let Vince come live with me and I

15:41

overheard that conversation and heard him plead with her as a Christian man

15:46

and believer my mom was pretty agnostic my biod dad was an atheist for

15:51

sure and you know for my grandfather was a Christian man to really really almost beg her to allow me

16:00

to come live with him was moving for me as a young man I I kept I was listening

16:07

for my bedroom going thinking please say yes Mom just please say yes so I did I

16:12

moved in I lived with him for 5 years till he died and that's really the a lot

16:18

of the stories of my life and and a lot of the the ministry that happened to me that changed my life and led me into

16:25

Ministry was because of those 5 years with my grandfather I got to see his discipleship his love he taught me

16:31

simple things about masculinity and biblical manhood that were powerful um

16:38

he taught me basic things like you know how to drive how to shave how to how personal hygiene how to pick up girls

16:44

you know those kinds of things and uh and of course he taught me about Jesus Christ and in fact the most meaningful

16:51

conversation I ever had with my grandfather was in his old 1958 Chevy

16:57

Apache truck so he was teaching to drive on this truck that he bought off the showroom floor in

17:04

1958 and uh we were learning to parallel park on that truck which it didn't have

17:09

one of those push button Park features on it and so we would drive around the

17:15

San Francisco Bay area and that's where I grew up and and he would just say Park here park here park here park here park

17:21

here every Saturday for 3 hours we did this together for 6 months I think it

17:27

was and I remember one time we parked and he would make me turn the engine off every time so I had to start from a

17:34

fresh position and one of those times he turned over to me and like every other

17:40

time had a conversation with me it was these short little snippet moments I don't even know how to describe them

17:46

there were it was like multiple little discipleship moments and one of those moments went exactly like this it took

17:53

30 seconds he said Vince I know your mom and dad say

17:58

God is not real because Christians are hypocrites and the church is full of broken

18:04

people then he paused and then he goes I want you to know that they're

18:10

right Christians are hypocrites and the church is full of broken people I'm a hypocrite I am a broken person but I

18:18

don't put my faith in hypocritical people and I don't

18:23

put my faith I put I put my faith in a man whose life was broken for me

18:29

and his name is Jesus and oh my goodness that 30 second

18:34

conversation literally turned right side up what my parents had turned upside down I mean just like I mean like that

18:41

it was it was over my grandfather had me and if you want to know why I turned to men that's why I turned to men I saw my

18:49

grandfather model for me manhood and masculinity in a way I've never seen it

18:55

before and he pointed me to the man Jesus Christ and it turned my life right side up so

19:02

you know approximately 5 years after that he got cancer in his spine it was

19:08

it it was not good I flew back to San Francisco to be with him I got there

19:14

about an hour before he died we had an hour conversation and then for the next six to eight hours or so I listened to

19:21

the the ambient noise of him gasping for air as I watched him die I mean there

19:28

was nothing more horrific that I've ever seen in my life than to watch someone die that way from

19:34

cancer and during that time I was listening to the white noise of his gasp

19:39

for Air I remember praying a prayer I just said to God God for the rest of my

19:44

life I want to do for other men what my grandfather did for me which is disciple and Mentor me and that is the heart of

19:51

everything that's been born ever since uh it was my grandfather through the

19:57

father who got a hold of my life and that's where it all started and then obviously from there the ministry grew I

20:04

mean I've done a number of things over the last 30 years but nothing has been

20:10

more impactful than just the daily devotionals that I produce and then that turned into weekly studies and then

20:17

books like you have here and then I found myself right in the middle of that men's Niche where I just continue I

20:25

continue to be a voice of reason for men who need to hear the gospel and and I've

20:31

learned a lot about men in the last 30 years including myself along the way which has been so joyful I mean honestly

20:37

you know some of the stuff you don't learn until you you learn it as you go and I think part of part of my journey

20:45

of ministering to men has been a journey of even understanding myself and what God wants for me from his word but then

20:53

passing that Legacy on like my grandfather did for me well praise God for that that

20:59

definitely lends a lot of context because some of those that story about your grandfather's death doesn't appear in the book but there are so many other

21:06

stories where he features very prominently and uh that was probably I

21:11

don't the particularly the the learning to drive stick shift and and coming to the stop sign I don't want to spoil that

21:16

story as much as I want to talk about that story with you I want people to go and read the book because that was the thing maybe you've heard this from other

21:23

men but that was the thing that I really walked away with like wow there's something special happening in this book but that relationship between you and

21:29

your grandfather I think speaks into what so many men are looking for in

21:34

their relationship with their father perhaps the father they never had or the father they wish to be and so that little bit of context about how about

21:41

the end of his life definitely lends even more gravity to um to the the the

21:46

significance of that relationship for you yeah yeah it was a huge deal for me will like I just God allowed a

21:54

relationship to come in at just the right time and it turned everything thing in the right direction and I think

22:01

we all hope and pray that for those of us who are searching that we'll find a guy like that I think for those of us

22:08

who have family members who are lost we hope that for them too right and uh I

22:15

just pray that along the way God will bring people along like an Ethiopian

22:20

unic to speak reason into our lives and to find our way to the good news of the

22:27

Gospel now you are are you trained as a pastor you were ordained or this is just a m a Ministry that you decided to move

22:34

into and you just developed as you as you go yeah so I I went to I did an

22:40

undergrad ba in Bible and then I did my MD in uh Bible and Missions at bethl

22:48

seminary in St Paul so that's kind of my my training at this point oh that's

22:54

that's fantastic I I was wondering if uh if there was specific train because you you do such wonderful devotionals every

23:01

day and and I like how uh I went through listen to a bunch of videos on your YouTube channel after reading the book

23:06

you make them you make them bite-sized right it's I I tend to do long podcasts

23:12

people know that um but the little but the little 20 minute you know 30 minute Snippets I think is particularly is

23:18

particularly powerful for reaching men or less reaching men where they're at yeah I you know I have found I mean this

Daily Bible Study Encouragement

23:25

is this is a Nuance for me but I a disciplined guy and I understand that

23:31

some men just don't have the time I also understand sometimes and this is no no

23:36

dig on a long form podcast by the way because I listen to long form podcast all the time but I I think sometimes

23:45

rather than just consuming La lots of information over a long stretch of time

23:50

like once a week my belief is if you can put a put put information in front of

23:56

people on a daily basis where they're processing that information they're

24:03

allowed to take in scripture think about something that they could change in their life or do with that that that can

24:10

be much more effective for growing and Understanding God's word than a whole

24:17

bunch of information that causes you to feel very convicted but not live with conviction one day a week right so

24:24

that's why I encourage people to follow me daily is because I just work through the Bible verse by verse chapter by

24:29

chapter each and every day in a little you know usually 5 to 10 minute little

24:34

dvo and it allows them to kind of get their mind around a single text I I show

24:40

people how to inductively study the Bible which I believe in and help them to extract that information and then

24:46

give them something to do just something little to do now I know guys guys like to be told what to do like do this do

24:52

that not because we want to turn them into a human doing rather than a human being but because sometimes they a

24:58

little direction to take that first step right I know I did I mean it's just like you get in you get in my grandfather's

25:04

truck you you want them to step you through it not give you all the information just tell me what to do one thing at a time turn the car on you know

25:10

then step on the clutch put it into gear lift up and down into gear now let the clutch out slowly while stepping on the

25:16

gas I can't take in all that information all at once you know I got to do it just a little bit at a time and and my

25:21

grandfather used that same technique when he was showing me how to drive and and uh it really has blessed me um

25:29

which by the way I have taught All My Children how to parallel park and and drive a stick shift too so you know it's

25:35

it's a blessing to understand you know how to do those things just a little bit of time and and that's my commitment is

25:41

I'm going to show up every day share devotionals with people hoping that they'll kind of pick up on how I'm

25:47

studying the Bible so that they will learn and understand how to pass that on as well yeah and I think there's I think

25:53

there's real value in that I'm listening to um the audiobook version of RC sprouls the truths we confess which is

26:01

his which is his analysis of the Westminster Confession of faith and the and I don't do Audi books but this

26:07

audiobook is 35 hours long right so so I go for walks and I listen and I listen

26:12

to it and I'm getting a ton out of it but it's a very different feeling than putting on a 15 or 20 minute Daily

26:19

Devotional while driving from point A to point B with a something actionable where it's designed to be a standalone

26:25

piece of content as opposed to something a piece of something much much larger yeah that's a that's a great work

26:32

that you're listening to right now is it not man it's unbelievably it's so good

26:39

yeah and you also you also uh help churches set up Men's Ministries as well

26:45

correct or or or you provide resources for men's Ministries I do that that's been some of the kind of some of the fun

26:53

behind the scenes work is working with men's leaders or or churches or groups

26:59

of churches I really like working with groups of churches because it creates a

27:05

it it helps them to create relationships with each other and then see a path forward together so occasionally I'll do

27:12

these training seminars around the country with groups of churches in an area they're very interactive by the way

27:19

so they're they're highly interactive it's not just me communicating to them it's me showing them what I've done and

27:27

some of the principles I've learned over the last 30 years even some of the trends that you're well aware of will

27:34

the the trends that I've seen that work and don't work and and I tend to focus

27:39

highly on not the flash in the pan big growth Men's Ministry which I think had

27:47

its time and its day but more that discipleship Focus you know I mean if

27:52

you were to strip it away you would call it any Ministry really it's just focusing back in on discipleship taking

27:57

men under your wing you know showing them how to set up groups showing them how to disciple other men show them how

28:04

how to think about Men's Ministry and Leading Men while they're in the mix

28:10

show them how to study the Bible I've done all those things in a short seminar

28:15

over a weekend with groups of churches all over the country and it has been a

28:21

blast especially because you usually are catching a few men's leader right in that moment when they're thinking hm I

28:28

really should do something and I feel called to working with men so I've I've

28:33

worked over the last 30 years with really just equipping men to do the ministry that God has called them to do

28:40

not do my ministry that's not what we're doing here I I just really believe that we should free people

28:46

up to live out their call live out their purpose through their unique gifts to

28:51

the people that God calls them to and I'm just trying to show people what I've done in the years that I've done Men's

28:57

Ministry and where I've seen it be successful and where it's been challenging so that's pretty much it can

29:04

you talk about some of the things that make Men's Ministry unique I've listened to some of your episodes about this but

29:09

what sort of things need to be in Men's Ministry I have my own answers I love your answers so but I think men especially men and women both need to

29:15

hear it today yeah so I mean women listening today definitely need to hear it um I I

29:22

speak sometimes at Women's conferences about men because I think it's important that they understand kind of the DNA

29:29

behind them but I you know Men's Ministry is a little different it to in

29:35

modern times meaning i' I'd really say in the last 10 to 15 years especially I

29:40

really feel like Men's Ministry has taken on this this smaller group feel

29:45

where guys are really looking for Meaningful relationships where they're looking for

29:52

connection they want some adventure with that don't get me wrong guys want some Adventure um they they uh they need

29:59

things to be kind of almost tactical and tangible for them so they need a leader

30:04

that have some you use this word earlier gravitas to them where they they have some leadership ability and they

30:11

understand where they are going I think men like to be a part of training experiences where they kind of go

30:18

there's there's a beginning and an end and I can see where we're going in the valley between we're not just Meandering

30:24

all over the place so I'll give you an example of something that that I do each year will so um a couple of times a year

30:33

I'm down in Florida right now by the way at my home in Florida I have a home in Minneapolis Minnesota too but um at my

30:40

home in Florida what I do a couple of times a year is I invite selected guys to come down here with me so I will

30:47

literally pray over it and I'll hand select you know somewhere around eight

30:53

guys usually to come down with me and then what I do down here and my home is

30:59

I invite them in we we have some structure to it it's very light structure I do not put time

31:06

frames around anything but one day like for example here in about a month we're

31:12

going to go to spring training with the Pirates and uh Tampa Bay so we're going

31:17

to go to a spring training game I bought all the tickets to it so the guys can go

31:22

all right that's number one then on the next day we're going to go deep sea fishing for half a day

31:28

third day we're going to golf all right so and most of the time down here is

31:35

going to be spend you know cooking a little breakfast and me sharing a devotional and then us having a short

31:41

conversation and then we'll go do one of those activities and then come back to the house and then that evening prepare

31:48

a meal here in the House Barbecue whatever and then sit around and have a much larger longer conversation about

31:55

things in life that really matter you know uh things we're struggling with uh

32:01

family marriage finances and then we usually end with thinking about where do

32:07

we want to go in the next year like what kind of goals do we want to set and I think that that kind of

32:14

format really works for guys last year I invited about eight guys to come and

32:22

this blew me away but as soon as all these guys got home

32:28

I got emails text and phone calls from their wives not from them from their

32:35

wives and every one of them said that was the best time my husband has had in

32:42

years and it was spiritual it was meaningful they built relationships with

32:48

one another and continued to text each other I mean it's it's just remarkable to me that we sometimes overthink this

32:54

whole thing right it's not and and here's the major problem men don't take initiative and do the things that I just

33:02

did they don't sit down and plan something they don't call up their buds they don't invite them along and that's

33:08

why I think Men's Ministry is struggling is because we don't realize that we are

33:13

called to be a minister to other people and invite them into that that's exactly what my grandfather did for me he sat

33:19

down at my mom's house took initiative and begged her to allow me to come live with him on a very long retreat for 5

33:25

years I mean that was it right and uh I I think that that is you can see in that

33:32

a bunch of little elements and I could get into the details of it and minutia but you see the point the point number

33:38

one is men have to take initiative number two I think men really like that small group Community three they really

33:45

like a little bit of Adventure mixed in you know four they want to come out on the other end with with something

33:53

tactical that makes them feel spiritually better and they want to have spiritual conversation

33:58

like I really believe that men do want to have spiritual conversations but no no one ever initiates it we talk about

34:04

superficial stupid things man I mean just stupid thing who cares who cares

34:09

about the Cowboys I'm tired of turning on ESPN and hearing about de boys I mean

34:16

they're never going to be a Super Bowl team under you know yes coach again I mean come on man he's done they're all

34:22

done they're just tired you know and you can see it you can hear it and you can

34:27

pay whatever amount of money you want you can talk about that all day long but it doesn't matter because you you can't even remember who won the last year's

34:33

Super Bowl I mean come on let's talk about things that are actually actually meaningful so those are some components

34:40

that I think men and women need to hear today about Ministry to men I think

34:46

that's that's so great I hosted a men's Retreat here in Phoenix back in October had a few guys there and it it went

34:52

along similar lines it was a weekend long thing got an Airbnb and we started out on uh you know just everyone's kind

34:59

of getting to know each other on Friday night we had a good meal together Friday night Friday night got up early on Saturday went for a went for a big run

35:06

had a bit of a had a bit of a workout and then we did a firearms training you know learning to move through a house

35:11

from someone who knows what he's talking about and after we had gone through which went way long by the way after we

35:16

had gone through that entire process bless you after we had gone through that entire process the men were much more

35:23

willing and interested to open up and have real conversations about issues that matter but the we needed to do

35:28

something physical first to get that out of the way to have some sort of shared experience to all learn something

35:34

practical together and then for the next like 24 36 hours before the guys had to leave it was just one long free flowing

35:42

conversation that I think we all found very rewarding but we had to do the physical stuff first because if we had

35:47

just gotten right into a let's sit in a circle and have a conversation it's like I don't know you I need to see who you

35:53

are first before I know whether I can trust you with some of these things that are going on with me me yeah that's a I

36:00

I call it that side by side experience right like I I used to do this all the time with my youngest son so he's 21

36:08

today so he's not young anymore but he uh I picked my youngest son up from

36:15

school every single day of his life every single day because I believed that

36:21

two men sitting side by side for a period of time in a car looking forward can have conversations that we won't

36:28

have when we're turned face to face right like that's right sometimes looking at a man intimately in the face

36:33

makes the conversation harder and and I just want you to know that you know over those years uh he just he just didn't

36:41

engage me very much in a conversation until we got close to his senior year

36:47

then he started opening up and then I started speaking into it and I mean it

36:53

was awesome but it sometimes we need side by side activities you know golf

36:59

guns games things I guess that begin with G you know that allow us to do side

37:05

by side things rather than you know face to face or Circle it just it takes the inhibition out of it so that we can

37:11

address the awkward moments without being tested by another man you know

37:17

with with our eyes and their Persona so I I have I have been very blessed by

37:22

what you're saying today will that side by-side conversation is fantastic if we

37:28

take advantage of it and we use it and that's where activities come in right a lot of side by side things you know we

37:33

get to see a man exposed by how he plays golf or how he handles a gun or you know

37:40

how he fishes or you know how he doesn't fish you know all those things just kind

37:45

of expose us and and it takes those inhibitions off the table Yeah I think men work better you

37:52

talked about this in in one of your podcast episodes also about uh the benefits of going to build something I

37:58

think it was at was at trout trout lake something like that a retreat center why don't you talk about that for just a

38:03

moment because I heard that I was like how much do I have to pay to go do something like that with a group of Christian

38:09

men yeah you know I I think sometimes you know it's interesting to me but but

38:16

men working together where they can they can use their

38:21

skill and they can feel competent is something that they don't feel when it

38:27

comes to spiritual things men do not feel competent when it

38:32

comes to spiritual things at all uh let me give it a different example with it and then we'll jump back

38:38

to the the building things together but I I when I started this ministry I

38:44

started with kind of a group mindset we had people leading groups and you know it took about nine months but somehow we

38:50

got to about 450 men in small groups so 40 small groups with about 10 to 12 men

38:56

in each 450 men in 9 months blew my mind so we started really studying them cuz

39:03

you know we have a control set now we can study and one of the things that I learned from these guys was many of them

39:11

came from many different churches many different walks of life so here was the General makeup of a group about a third

39:20

about a third were what I would call Blue Collar CEOs so they owned a small business of some kind with four or five

39:27

employees and they were looking to grow in their faith the second third I would call them

39:34

guys that were very young in their faith but just didn't know how to take a Next Step third part of the group was just

39:41

maybe your average Christian guy all right so someone who was working a job

39:47

had a good family went to church on a regular basis but liked the idea of it so I started paying attention to that

39:53

group and I realized that there were there were men from all kinds of different churches but one of the one

Church-Averse Bible Study Groups

40:01

one piece of feedback that I got most from these 450 men was this they liked

40:08

the idea of groups meeting outside of the church in a local

40:15

business in a place that was less threatening where they can have a little bit of anonymity where they didn't they

40:22

they truly believed that not everybody in the group was going to tell someone else at church what was going on on or

40:27

somebody else's wife but they could have a little bit of anonymity to safely

40:33

explore the Bible and truth and ask

40:39

intimidating questions that they were afraid to ask of their pastor of their church now what was insightful for me

40:44

about that was that these were incredibly skilled men I mean some of these Blue Collar CEOs were running very

40:50

successful middle-sized businesses and they were like coming to me for wisdom and they were asking questions in the

40:56

group that kind of blew my mind and then over time I came to realize that those blue

41:02

collar CEOs they didn't want their Pastor asking them for money number one because they got tired of that number

41:09

two they really didn't want to play their cards at church because they were

41:14

so competent in their skill that they didn't want to look incompetent spiritually does that make

41:21

sense yes it does also true for kind of those young Christians obviously looking

41:27

for a safe place and for mature Christians that honestly barely picked up the Bible but thought of themselves

41:34

as a mature Christian they were looking for a safe place too so what I found from that was this is that every man has

41:43

and is looking for some level of anonymity and in that an anonymity

41:48

they're not saying I just want to be passive they're saying I want to figure out how to take the right action but I

41:53

want to do it in a safe environment where no one's going to make fun of me because I asked a stupid question right

41:59

and then on top of it I came to find out that while I was leading a lot of these groups a lot of those men with all that

42:06

skill fed me too I learned all kinds of things about God's word about Ministry

42:12

about money about business about life about leadership and and here's the

42:18

strange thing every man every man sitting in a church

42:24

today has some skill I mean it some skill I mean take my

42:30

grandfather he used the skill of teaching me how to drive to teach me about

42:37

Jesus and every man out there has a skill I mean there are skilled plumbers

42:42

listening to this right now that have a unique skill that I don't have they know how to sweat on a pipe perfectly every

42:50

single time and guess what that skill can be used to communicate the gospel in

42:56

a meaningful way but a lot of those guys they dismiss themselves from it because they think they need some level of

43:04

scriptural uh I don't know what you want to call it um Mastery they they need to

43:10

reach some kind of educational level before it is then okay for them to

43:16

utilize the gospel for an advantage using their skill but that that's just

43:21

not true man we learn we learn to communicate the gospel by Liv living in

43:27

it every day using our skill and then seeing our skill through the gospel and that's what I wish more men did so

43:35

there's something fascinating going back to Trout Lake now there's something fascinating about when when men use a

43:40

skill like when their framers Carpenters concrete layers tile Setters finish

43:48

carpenters you know all those different kinds of guys when they suddenly discover that they can come together and

43:54

then they can use their skill to build uh a camp for example that's going

44:00

to share the gospel with others they then begin to see the fusing together of

44:06

their skills talents and abilities to the gospel and then they feel a little bit more competent to understand well

44:13

there's not that much more to learn I need to dig into God's word for sure but

44:18

man I mean without we need those guys to move from the bench to the game right that that's really what we need them to

44:25

do we need them to take their skill and stop using it for their purposes and use

44:30

it for God's purposes and figure out the transition from it I mean that's what Paul the Apostle did I'm bloting you cut

44:37

me off anytime no what the Apostle Paul did he he he was the Pharisee of

44:42

Pharisees right the Roman of Romans the the man of zeal with Zeal on top of zeal right and then all of a sudden he has

44:49

this encounter with Jesus on the Damascus Road and and everything's thrown off kilter it's like and then we

44:55

we know he spent some Paul spent some some time in Arabia in the desert and then he goes back to Tarsus

45:01

for a number of years and we don't know exactly how many years these are the text is unclear about it it could be

45:06

anywhere from 7 maybe to 12 14 I don't know somewhere in that range but what is

45:12

happening to Paul during that time well the same thing that happens to every man

45:17

who has a conversion experience he has to take enough time to see everything

45:23

through the lens of Jesus Christ again and that's what Paul I believe was doing he was rereading the Bible through the

45:29

lens of Jesus Christ cuz he so protested him that now he has to relearn everything he has learned and then take

45:36

that oratory skill that debate skill do you see it that writing skill and then

Transitioning Gifts for God's Purposes

45:43

use it for Kingdom purposes those are very natural gifts that by the way some

45:48

men out there have as plumbers electricians CEOs CFOs Finance guys you

45:54

name it salese we can transition those very natural gifts that we were

45:59

using for our purposes and transition them into God's gifts that he has given

46:04

to us to use for his purposes and I think that's where man guys get excited

46:11

when they start to see that they can't unsee it they're exposed to a New World View and then man they just take flight

46:18

but it takes a little bit of time that's why I believe a little bit of anonymity for a period of time where a man can

46:23

really explore those questions ask them push through them boom he'll eventually take off but you just can't have him

46:30

wait too long so if you guys are out there listening today if you've been sitting on the bench too long get off the

46:35

bench get into the game you might mess up a play or two uh don't worry Jerry Jones will probably fire you but you

46:41

know hey hey you gave it a shot and you learned another way not to do something man you said so much great

46:48

stuff in there so I I come from the secular world the secular masculinity World Robert blly iron John the

46:54

manosphere and the man kind project have you heard of that organization and one of the things oh okay so you know about

47:01

okay fantastic so um so one of the things that that group did very well was

47:06

facilitate anonymity so when you went on a new Warrior training Adventure you walk in and then you you get your name

47:13

taken away from you and you become a number for a little while and then you get your name back you get a whole different name but then you have 70 guys

47:19

or more coming from all walks of life they get all of their external identifiers stripped away from them and

47:25

you get to it doesn't who knows who this guy is are you a doctor are you a golfer are you a plumber I don't know right and

47:31

so the men get the ability to just strip off their outside identity and just approach the moment with a with an

47:38

innocence I guess or an openness right and then everyone goes their separate ways and maybe you meet that guy again

47:43

or maybe you don't but he's had the opportunity to acquire some Mastery not at the cost of his status and then I was

47:49

also in men's groups where it was the same we weren't friends in our outer lives if I say something to Tom across

47:55

the circle he doesn't know anyone in my life life so it's not going to get back get back to anyone around so it allows me to have this openness and it's going

48:01

to be a very powerful thing for men to have that experience of of anonymity where it's like I don't have to worry

48:07

about damaging anything else I'm doing by demonstrating I don't know something in this moment because there's there's

48:13

all this hesitation like I don't want to ask a dumb question because I don't want to look stupid against next to somebody that I have to see in church tomorrow

48:20

and so the opportunity for men to be able to speak into these rooms with other guys who don't know them it's

48:25

incredible growth opportunity yeah just it allows us to Blossom as men which is what we want

48:33

isn't it I mean we want to we want to grow and you know sometimes I think that's why just the anulus group that

48:42

doesn't have a direction you know that doesn't know where it's going what it's studying next

48:47

I mean opt me out of that man like I I've got a I don't have time to waste anymore you know like I have limits on

48:55

my life there's I have I have less life in front of me than I do behind me at this point you

49:02

know and and I know that and I want to be a part of things that are going to affect me deeply affect me and I think

49:10

there's a lot of men out there that think that way that's why they're not participating in a lot of church groups

49:15

today is because they don't see a plan they don't understand how it's going to form them the leaders unclear they just

49:21

say hey let's get together form a group and and that's not enough man I I I hate to say it but it's got to be more than

49:26

than that there's got to be a why behind it that says this is going to make me better I mean that's exactly why men

49:31

participate in in some of these crazy things that they participate like like you're talking about manosphere and all

49:37

that kind of stuff why why do we participate in in challenges why are men signing up in droves to be a part of

49:43

CrossFit to do uh why are they why are they signing up to to do a backpacking

49:49

trip across Australia or mountain biking for 100 miles across a desert you know

49:55

whatever you know whatever it is are they doing that because they can see a beginning and an end they see the challenge in between they see how it's

50:01

going to make them better and I Believe Christian men in Christian Ministries need to make that more clear

50:08

uh especially for men especially for the audience of men because they do feel like they have very little time to

50:15

waste and there's a there's a degree of which the men Wonder okay who's driving

50:21

the bus if I'm going to show up and sit in this circle and participate in this moment or this group or whatever the

50:26

group is doing I have to know that like someone's driving because if I don't think anyone's driving then I'm going to

50:32

reach for the wheel and then we're all going to reach for the wheel it's not going to go anywhere who's who's got this so I can just be a passenger and

50:38

that's a real thing that men need oh man I'm the vacuum of leadership if if I

50:45

even sniff it out I will step in and oh do I hate to do it like it's like I just

50:51

I have to almost like pull back on my I have to bite my tongue grit my teeth pull back on my myself because if I just

50:58

I'm so compelled today that if I see a vacuum of leadership I will step in and you're right about well that is I'll

51:04

remember that for a long time that is so true like leaderless groups are eventually led by somebody you

51:11

know or the men feel like they don't like there's no one driving so it's like where is this going and it it turns into

51:17

a waste of time very quickly either someone will take the rains or guys will be like I got too much else going on in my life to lead this also so if someone

51:25

wants to Lead Me great if they're going to take us in a direction that was worth going but otherwise man I got I got

51:31

enough I can do oh yeah me me too man I've got a lot on my plate so I'm always

51:36

trying to decide what's in and what's what's out for me each and every moment of the

51:42

day so can I um I wanted to point to a section that came to mind um as we were

51:48

talking about this we're talking about um the uh the voices of of Pride I think it was um is the voice of Pride the past

51:56

um where the the different sins related to Pride relating to control I think I must have bookmarked that one do do you

52:03

know what I'm talking about there's like yeah can you speak about that really quick because I read that about myself

52:08

it's sort of relevant to what we're talking about that it's like I'm the guy who knows how to do this right you know no one else has got this that's my

52:15

particular I read that I'm like oh it's the book nailed me I wonder if you can talk about those as well are you

52:21

speaking about the five voices that men hear I think so I think so so yeah yeah

52:27

so I that's been one of my adages I I believe men Hear Voices um they're afraid to admit they

52:34

hear these voices and one of them is the voice of Pride the voice of the man that we think we are is that what you're

52:41

referencing that's that's the one so I think that's the f one of the first

52:46

voices that men hear the voice of Pride the voice of the man that I think I am

52:52

and of course I think most men think they're Legends in their own mind

52:58

I just I I think by Nature the the voice of pride is a voice that's that's true

53:05

to all of us I mean if you were to ask a man what is one of the great sins of the Bible of course one of the great sins is

53:10

pride it's our own arrogance but we can't forget that pride has it it has an

53:19

overarching meaning but when we we're vague like that and not specific we fail

53:26

to address our version of Pride so let me give you an example of it you

53:33

struggle with the voice of Pride I will struggle with the voice of Pride every man will but we each have our version of

53:40

that it's an everchanging version for some of us and some of us it's the same

53:46

voice and and and all of it can it can really awaken in us with just a little

53:54

that a boy or good job or loved how you said that you know and it just it can

53:59

awaken that that Evil Within and I think men have to do business with it not just

54:06

general Pride dealing with our general but our version of our pride and then go

54:12

after it because we're going to battle with that probably for the rest of our lives so we have to understand what that

54:20

voice sounds like when it when it begins to rear its ugly head why it happen like

54:27

why we hear that voice why we act on it or what we did afterward and we even

54:32

have to figure out an attack plan with that voice like we have to know that there's certain things that are going to

54:38

trigger Pride for us so we even prepare ourselves beforehand so that when it

54:44

happens we can beat it back right and I I really think that this this attack

54:50

plan with pride is is something that men should do more frequently rather than

54:55

talking general terms about the voice of Pride and our issues with it we need to come head on to our specific version and

55:04

and honestly the person that knows that version of Pride the best is usually our spouse our wife right they they know

55:11

that I mean my wife knows it my kids know it too and they know how to push those little buttons to trigger

55:18

that thing to irritate me and so uh and sarcasm is used as a voice to to beat

55:24

those things down out of us in our house sometimes which I'm not encouraging by the way to our listeners but you know

55:31

it's it's one those are pride is is just one of many voices that we have to learn

55:37

to speak back to preach back to in our lives in hopes of us not becoming the

55:43

men that we think that we are we're trying to become the men that God has

55:48

designed us to be not the men that we think we are and if we spend too much

55:53

time ruminating on that voice you you've eventually become narcissistic of course

55:59

I mean that would be an extreme form of Pride you know just always F focused on

56:05

yourself to the nth degree maybe maybe uh maybe sociopath would even be a

56:10

better term I don't know what would be your the psychologist you tell me so or tell me later outside of this and

56:16

I'll pay you for it but you see the point the point is we we have to address that specific version what it looks like

56:23

what happens when it happens what happens when it manifests itself I act on it how am I going to preemptively

56:29

attack that rather than just passively allow it to ruin my life and my

56:35

relationships and then do something about it as I see that God has designed me to be his man not my own man

56:42

independent from him now um you mentioned that you've seen many of the secular Trends through

56:49

masculinity over the past 30 years manosphere new Warrior train adventure Etc so it seems that today with this in

56:56

conversation about masculinity that that aspect of Pride U is not I would say

57:03

it's not being handled well at all in fact what's being encouraged in men is is pridefulness maybe you can speak a little bit about that as well oh

57:10

absolutely I I I think where this specific part of our

57:15

conversation goes will is the misunderstanding of

57:22

virtue so let let me let me give you let me try to make this as clear as I can

57:28

without being too heady so you probably read Neo Manan ethics

57:36

right Aristotle yeah Aristotle I so Aristotle in Neo Manan ethics lays out

57:44

various virtues that men should accomplish to be

57:49

men the problem is there's like 12 of them they're exhausting virtues by the

57:55

way and I don't know if I can focus on 12 things for the rest of my life like I just my mind cannot cannot retain that

58:03

much information and then achieve that kind of virtue and and here's here's the

58:10

thing that goes I think arai when we build our version of masculinity on

58:17

human virtue human virtue is is going to let you down every single time you know you

58:24

can try uh uh you you can try your hand at every virtue that exists that out

58:31

there out exists out there but we all know that we don't know when we've

58:37

really accomplished it and how we size oursel up or compare ourselves with other people and and that is because

58:43

there is one scripture in the Bible that destroys all virtue Romans 3:23 for all have sinned

58:51

and fall short of the glory of God there is no virtue is that we can achieve

58:58

that's going to make us men the only man who makes men is Jesus

59:05

Christ Jesus Christ and what he did on the cross through his death and

59:11

Resurrection are what redeem and restore us as men of God so that we can now

59:18

become the men that God designed us to be way back in Genesis 1 2 and 3 if if

59:23

we could understand that that it's not a write a passage it's it's not an

59:29

accomplishment it's not a moral virtue it's not rejection of the ways of

59:34

this life or the way of our fathers it's actually embracing the understanding that virtue is not where after moral

Salvation Through Christ, Not Virtue

59:42

virtue is not what we are after what we are after is salvation from our

59:49

Brokenness Redeemed by Jesus Christ on the cross raised to live a new life

59:54

restored in relationship with God and therein we are saved and we are made

1:00:00

men now does this devoid us of pursuing virtue absolutely not James

1:00:08

throughout his letter in the New Testament is clear that faith and works

1:00:13

Faith exemplified through our works gives evidence to the work the saving

1:00:20

work that Jesus Christ did on the cross for us and we go back to claiming that over and over again in so it's not a

1:00:26

life built on our virtue it's a life built on the virtue of Jesus Christ and

1:00:33

if we get that right it separates us from from all these other I call them

1:00:39

rights of Passage that you were talking about earlier all these other rights of Passage that we try to use to

1:00:44

manufacture and to trick men into becoming men which is only going to lead them to the next failure it's only going

1:00:50

to last to the next failure until they they realize that this new identity that

1:00:55

they tried to earn can't be earned until they realize they have to

1:01:01

surrender to become men they have to give up to Jesus to become men they have

1:01:06

to be redeemed and restored by someone who was the man man that little Nuance right there I think is the one thing

1:01:14

that separates Christian manhood from uh the world's version of masculinity that

1:01:20

right there Jesus Christ his Redemption his restoration as the only man man that

1:01:26

couldn't do what we tried to accomplish I don't know does that answer your question yes it does this is this is so

1:01:33

encouraging for me because uh you know so much of the dialogue about masculinity today misses this this

1:01:38

essential misses this ESS essential Point entirely so um okay so so I want

1:01:43

to push back not because I disagree but because I I can hear some people wanting to point at something I I agree with you

1:01:49

wholly but the here's an objection that I would hear okay so what you're saying is we need to rely on Jesus Christ yes

1:01:55

and men but our previous generations of fathers did the same thing and now look

1:02:00

where we are maybe we need something more than just Christ so what would you say in response to that yeah I I I'm

1:02:08

glad you posed that uh objection and rebuttle so let me let me just kind of

1:02:14

try to answer it the best I can I I to me and some listeners are not going to

1:02:21

agree with this but to me masculinity is only a social construct okay so

1:02:30

masculinity is men going to other men to try to understand what makes a man and

1:02:37

some of the things that we've seen happen in our world and in our country maybe in our neighborhood and our family

1:02:43

and government and politics education business whatever you whatever you want however you want to call it I do believe

1:02:50

that there's this interest in a lot of men to reach back into ancient times and

1:02:55

even in into Roman times which has been a common Trend right and they want to reach back into Roman culture because

Rethinking Culture and Masculinity

1:03:02

they see the drive and maybe the moral virtue and uh the the physical exertion

1:03:09

back there but don't forget the Roman Empire was an Empire driven by dictators

1:03:15

or monarchs you know and that it probably wasn't as enjoyable as we think it is and imagine it in our own minds

1:03:23

right with that as well I I think that masculinity as a social construct has so

1:03:32

many versions right now and so many people screaming so

1:03:38

loudly and people that are that we have given a stage to that are speaking all

1:03:44

over platforms today social platforms media platforms government platforms

1:03:50

education platforms we have essentially given them the platform now what I'm saying is really we need to get back to

1:03:57

some Deuteronomy 6 kind of behavior where my grandfather took me which

1:04:03

is love the Lord your God with all your heart mind soul and then

1:04:10

then share it as you walk by the road as you lie down as you get

1:04:17

up you know to to share it with your immediate family and ingrain those

1:04:24

principles into to those closest to you share them like my grandfather did for

1:04:29

me and we will have an effect on the culture you see I I do believe that

1:04:37

Jesus believed Cultural Revolution was possible because he's going to lead a

1:04:43

new cultural revolution but it has to begin with us individually and then it

1:04:49

has to be passed on to the culture of our family for us to be for us to feel

1:04:56

having an effect on the culture around us so that's my very best answer I think

1:05:02

I could probably give to that question I don't know if there's any cross rebuttal here but I would love to hear if I'm am

1:05:08

answering the question adequately no I think I think that's right because I as a man myself who's been through the

1:05:16

rights of Passage who's been through the therapy who's done all the trainings all I can I can tell you quite confidently

1:05:23

that all these things did was make me a more efficient sinner that's all they did right it just removed the

1:05:29

impediments you know from whatever my own Hang-Ups and anxieties were about the thing that my heart quote unquote

1:05:35

wanted and it wasn't until I was regenerated in the holy spirit that process began that I found that I became

1:05:41

a whole new man whole new life I said on a podcast that I released uh when this comes out it will have been a week ago

1:05:48

that if you had told me 5 years ago where I am today I would not have

1:05:53

believed you if you had told me who I would be and the things that I would the ways that I would have changed like no way cuz it was so ingrained in me so the

1:06:01

idea that you know men will look towards writs of Passage or other historical eras or whatever therapists or trainings

1:06:07

or whatever to teach them what it means to be a man I mean you can you can glean

1:06:13

some valuable things I'm sure by looking at men throughout history I have a book right back over here called what is a man you know 500 pages of various quotes

1:06:21

and stuff like that from men reflecting on that but I don't know that you can you can't answer the question completely

1:06:27

without turning to Jesus Christ you simply cannot and you don't get to do that in your own strength you can't do that either yeah

1:06:34

exactly and it's kind of I mean let me let me make it even simpler like an answer super simple so if if you want to

1:06:42

understand something that's made you just go back to the creator of that thing to understand it based upon my

1:06:48

reading of the Bible and my beliefs I believe God created the first man he created him very good and he created him

1:06:55

for not only a relationship with him he created man to receive his image to rule

1:07:02

his creation and reflect his character to the world we we tend to just get focused on

1:07:08

the character piece of The Virtue piece without God that's where we want to go with it because we want to accomplish

1:07:15

something in our strength rather than go back to the creator of man who made man

1:07:22

look at his intent and purpose live that out specific speically receive the image

1:07:27

rule creation and reflect that character and then when we live in that flow man

1:07:33

that's where the beauty of it happens the problem is everything broke in chapter 3 and we needed Jesus in Matthew

1:07:40

Mark Luke and John to redeem and restore us so that we could become the men that we're designed to be so that we could go

1:07:46

back to the original instruction receive the image through Jesus rule created

1:07:53

order according to Christ rule reflect Jesus's character of the world that's

1:07:58

how we live out manhood and if we we try to do it any other way we're just going to be exhausted by it I mean it's going

1:08:04

to be an exhausting feat you're going to have to go to counseling indefinitely right indefinitely Or go to these uh

1:08:12

manhood challenges indefinitely Or try another WR of Passage indefinitely because it's it's not activity it's not

1:08:20

our activity that make us men it's Jesus's activity on the cross

1:08:26

and his resurrection from the dead that makes us a restored man and if we receive our identity through that as

1:08:33

Sons we will begin to see everything differently and I can spend a whole whole hour talking about that whole

1:08:39

identity and Christ thing but you you see the the general point we we have to go back to the creator of man to

1:08:45

understand man not go back to more men like us who are just failed broken men who by the way don't know how a man is

1:08:52

made let's just be honest we don't make your own man go get your own elements you know go

1:09:01

get all of your own elements cuz you can't make a man it's not possible neither can we remake the soul of a man

1:09:07

it's just not possible I was thinking a couple weeks ago that this is how glorious God is is

1:09:14

that he can take a handful of dirt and fashion it into something in his image like we can't exactly do that so so your

1:09:21

own dirt exactly get your own dirt that's right so when you when you lead

1:09:27

men's groups when you lead discipleship groups do you do you find that there are moments I would imagine that there are

1:09:33

where like making these Concepts land for men is just something stuck and you have to push through it I I imagine it's

1:09:39

quite hard in some in some sometimes yeah I you know people Mo most men like to work in

1:09:48

the temporal and they don't think about the spiritual as much they think they think about the spiritual but I think

1:09:55

some of these concepts are are hard hard for them to grasp um so you have to make them as as

1:10:03

tangible as possible I I here's the number one way I've seen a transformation in a man's

1:10:09

life it's through pain hate to say it it's pain yeah now you know pain is a

1:10:17

remarkable remarkable device for getting a man to change um I think that's kind

1:10:22

of why we have so many pain-based Men's Ministry in the United States

1:10:27

Church Celebrate Recovery divorce recovery Financial Peace University I

1:10:33

mean recovery recovery recovery Rec it's all recovery why is it because when when

1:10:38

a man breaks his arm he wants to relieve the pain and get it healed quickly that's how men think but when men get

1:10:47

inside of those groups they usually have an Awakening here here's one that's very

1:10:52

common so let's take uh celebrate recovery which is an addiction recovery

1:10:57

group experience right so a man will join Celebrate Recovery cuz he's addicted just something whatever it

1:11:04

might be you know pornography narcotics you know drinking alcohol whatever it is

1:11:10

and then he'll get in there and usually somewhere between 5 to seven weeks will

1:11:16

he'll have this moment where he'll go you know had I had the Bible and Brotherhood

1:11:23

in my life before all this happened I might have avoided all of it and I usually say yeah yeah pretty much

1:11:30

because you know most men are very reactionary when it comes to their faith

1:11:36

and relationship in Jesus Christ to with dealing with these problems in their life what what I've always hoped and I

1:11:43

think what you're getting at a little bit here is wouldn't it be great if men were just a little bit more proactive

1:11:48

and we didn't need so much pain to bring about change in our life and I wish that

1:11:54

was the case will but man I pain is our greatest teacher pain is man's greatest

1:12:02

teacher and because it drives them to find a solution sometimes too quickly

1:12:08

granted that sometimes too quickly and you're a counselor you understand this men sit down with you and marriage

1:12:13

counseling you know and they just they want the problems fixed and moved on and the wife's like I'm like two years behind you because of all these issues I

1:12:21

need time to catch up you know men want things solved quickly but but still it's the pain that got them to that first

1:12:27

counseling meeting right pain pain that got them there to sit in that chair and

1:12:34

I I think pain is still and probably will always be one of our greatest

1:12:39

teachers if we will listen to it and look for real solutions to that pain

1:12:45

real solutions and as you know as a counselor the solution always comes back to Jesus I mean it does but just a an

1:12:51

understanding of a dimension of the spiritual life that they need unique to them that's going to help them

1:12:57

address and deal with not just you know the the the surface pain but all the

1:13:03

underlying issues that led to that pain in the first place I mean the human race

1:13:10

chose pain in Genesis 3 right we could have just simply listened obeyed God's law and be like yeah that's not for us

1:13:16

but instead we chose the path of pain perhaps not knowing it was the path of pain but how many men choose they really

1:13:22

choose the path of pain they kind of stumble into it don't they yeah they they really do like they they most men

1:13:29

think they're pretty okay you know maybe they need to learn a couple of things or two and and you know I've said in enough

1:13:35

men men's groups for 30 years that I can kind of I can I can sniff it out now I mean you can kind of tell right away

1:13:43

like you you've seen it too you're a counselor you get all this when you you see patterns now that you can't ignore

1:13:50

and some men are very very good at hiding it I mean extremely good at M of

1:13:55

hypos hypocrisy but you know it if we just submit ourselves to the process we'll

1:14:01

Discover it and learn I mean every day is a painful learning experience for me in some way I mean I'm reading God's

1:14:08

word this morning and God's word strikes to the heart in a way and I have to pause man I just got to pause I got

1:14:15

think how am I doing that today and then I got to take time to reflect on it and think about what needs to change in my

1:14:22

life and and will to be honest with you you know how long it has taken me to really Embrace really embrace the word

1:14:28

is truth and allow me to quit rejecting the truth and really just embrace the

1:14:35

truth as it is and allow the truth to change me allow the unchanging word of

1:14:40

God to change me and I think it takes a long time will for our hearts to get

1:14:46

there now for some people it just boom happens overnight I've seen that happen too of course Paul the Apostle might be

1:14:52

an example of that but but for some men you know we we it takes us a while to

1:14:59

learn and perhaps a lifetime which is why we're why I'm still paying attention to the pain too will I'm still paying

1:15:06

attention to it amen well perhaps perhaps it it wasn't so easy for Paul I

1:15:11

mean he did perhaps it was God's kindness to him to not recount any of those stories of seven years and Arabia

1:15:17

has you know I'm sure he had a lot of stuff to work through in himself and a lot of you know his own sanctification

1:15:22

to go on before he could show up and what the the the uh the apostles were like we don't we don't know about this

1:15:28

guy wait what what do you and then he had to be vouched for and the whole thing so he had his own process surely

1:15:34

I'm very likely to work through um but but this gets to something else that you brought up in your book around the issue

1:15:39

of spiritual complacency I wonder if you can speak to that because I think we do

1:15:45

have so much going on in our lives as men and you know we are all also you know called to love the Lord thy God

1:15:51

with all their heart soul mind and strength and we fall short in that yeah so here here's another story

1:15:58

for you so I don't think this is in the book because I don't know if it necessarily fits perfectly but years ago

1:16:06

when each one of my kids graduated high school I took each one of them on a trip and I agreed to say to them I will take

1:16:13

you wherever you want to go friends can come with you but we're going on a trip

1:16:19

together and my middle son chose he wanted to go outside of the country is

1:16:26

what he wanted so we chose to go to Dominican Republic and we went to a resort and he wanted to bring a couple

1:16:31

buddies they paid their own way I didn't pay their way but anyway he wanted to bring a couple buddies so you know it

1:16:37

was spring break and we went down there and we arrived at this Resort it was nice and all that and I'm standing at

1:16:45

the counter and literally I want you to know there was nothing but women there I

1:16:51

mean women like un unruly amount of women everywhere moms and teens etc etc

1:16:59

just all women's groups Etc and I immediately called my wife and I said I

1:17:04

don't know what I just got myself into honey there are nothing but women there and of course she's trusting of me we

1:17:11

have a great relationship I let her know when things like that happen that's why I called her right away I was like I just brought four young men to a resort

1:17:21

with nothing but women where the drinking age is 14 I'm just like what in the world like what

1:17:28

have I just done and I said why why is there nothing but women here to my wife

1:17:33

and she said well that's easy women plan things I will never forget that

1:17:40

conversation for the rest of my life it was at that moment at that moment I felt

1:17:46

deeply convicted about speaking about men taking initiative I mean that's you I already

1:17:52

told you about the little Retreats I have down here at my house house right I mean why do I have them I have them

1:17:59

today because I know if I'm a man who takes initiative people will come I I don't have a problem filling up Retreats

1:18:05

things at my house I don't why because people want to come because I invited them to come because I took the

1:18:11

initiative to plan it that's why they come and I think there's too many

1:18:17

spiritually complacent men on the face of the planet right now that will spend

1:18:24

I mean they'll spend $500 on a a bag of irons for their golf bag they'll spend

1:18:30

$200 on a pair of running shoes they'll they'll spend $2,000 to go you know to

1:18:38

the Super Bowl or a playoff game or something that's more like $7,000 now but they'll spend all that money to go

1:18:43

to those things but they won't do anything when it comes they won't spend a dime when it comes to their spiritual life that's not true of all men I don't

1:18:50

want to be you know throwing the baby out with the bath water here but I I just just wish that men were more

1:18:57

proactive and less reactive in their faith if we were just more proactive I

1:19:03

mean just think how different our lives would be think about how different your

1:19:08

marriage would be relationships with your kids would be so I am a guy who has

1:19:13

to constantly remind myself to take initiative because you can get consumed by the things of this life you can get

1:19:19

consumed by routines by work by Daily Grind by changing diapers at home you

1:19:26

know dealing with issues in your life fixing a broken car I mean these things are consuming but on on top of all those

1:19:33

things there's nothing more important than taking spiritual initiative and

1:19:38

fighting against that complacency and and pushing against it a little bit when a man pushes against

1:19:44

that things happen and I think there's a reason why the enemy wants us to be

1:19:50

complacent I think there's a reason why man in the garden said nothing and did

The Roots of Spiritual Complacency

1:19:56

nothing in the face of Injustice and sin when he was created first he was given a

1:20:03

single moral rule before woman was created when he was given a voice to

1:20:09

name all the creatures of the earth and then there in the garden in the garden

1:20:15

when woman is having a conversation with the serpent about the fruit he does

1:20:20

nothing and says nothing that spiritual complacency right there is what got us

1:20:26

into our first problem sin and it is

1:20:31

prototypical of all men I mean that story and you've said this already that story in Genesis 1 2 and 3 is a story we

1:20:38

can come back to a thousand times and the reason why we can come back to a it a thousand times not only just because

1:20:46

it's history but because it's a metaphor for the issues that we face in our life now we can be both actively and

1:20:53

passively disobedient don't get me wrong we can be both actively and passively disobedient but that silence in that

1:21:02

moment was deafening and the fact that man was given Authority power Dominion voice

1:21:10

rule all those things before a woman was ever created and didn't say anything tells me that sometimes in spiritual

1:21:17

complacency and apathy and passivity there's something that we want that we go after in are passivity

1:21:26

and spiritual complacency and what we're really saying is I want to do something else I don't want to care for my

1:21:32

spiritual life that's a hard truth I mean that's just that's a hard truth I'm trying to say it as nice as I can to men

1:21:37

out there today but I think we're spiritually complacent because we want something else and we don't want the

1:21:43

Lord we don't want to be obedient to him I'm so grateful you said that

1:21:49

because I I I believe very much and I agree with you there's no need to hold back here so my audience knows that that

1:21:55

I'm I I'm not a man who holds back as well so I appreciate that that in our in our disobedience in our passivity it's

1:22:02

passivity is actually choosing in a particular direction it's not simply avoiding a it's actually going towards B

1:22:08

because we know deep down that that's the direction that things are going to go and that's what we're choosing instead through

1:22:14

passivity yeah and I don't know why we're afraid to to deal with that I

1:22:20

think I I know you speak about this will but more more

1:22:26

men Christian men spiritual leaders pastors from a platform need to say that

1:22:32

not in a shaming way but in a truthful way uh you know kind of like at the um

1:22:39

at the end of I think it's James yeah at the end of the book of James when James finishes off the book in chapter 5 he

1:22:46

just says in with utter optimism it is good when a brother is restored it is

1:22:53

good to go after after a brother and restore him but that means pointing out that he has been spiritually complacent

1:23:00

in his complacency he's been chasing he's been doing something not just doing nothing but doing something that isn't

1:23:07

obedience so we got to restore those Brothers to the faith and and even men listening today that know someone that's

1:23:13

doing that go read the end of James chapter 5 it's our responsibility to

1:23:19

restore that brother and to welcome him back in for it covers over a mult

1:23:24

multitude of sins one of the things that I got in trouble for saying I don't mind recently

1:23:32

was that what a lot of men will do is that they have allowed themselves to be complacent or passive for so long and

1:23:39

then with the current discussion of masculinity there's so much anger that's injected in and men will use this

1:23:46

momentary burst of anger to Vault them up out of the out of the ditch and then

1:23:51

they drive straight into the other ditch not too long after so good you've seen

1:23:57

this phenomenon I'm sure so maybe you can talk a little bit about how we can get out of the ditch of complacency

1:24:03

without driving into the ditch of I don't know arrogance aggressiveness

1:24:08

Pride yeah there's it I I know I can I can sense from how

1:24:14

you're saying it there there's a version

1:24:19

of biblical manhood today that that we're starting to see on podcast ass

1:24:25

that is just totally aggressiveness it it's it's it's massed in drinking Scotch

1:24:32

smoking cigars you know being aggressive and uh you know while all

1:24:40

those things are good in modesty I guess I I I just I cloaking our our manhood

1:24:49

and things of this world doesn't allow the beauty of true

1:24:54

manhood to be seen uh and I I'm I'm one to go full

1:24:59

bore against sin I mean I'm a a John Owen lover so you know let's let's go

1:25:05

full bore and give a full effort towards sin at the same time that doesn't mean

1:25:13

that I'm aggressive toward people in a way that would turn

1:25:20

them off to the Wonder and the the Saving Grace of Jesus Jesus Christ I got to figure out how to kind of tow that

1:25:27

line and you know this this whole idea of of righteous anger I just I just

1:25:34

wonder if it's if it's possible for Humanity I just I mean I really I just really wonder if it's possible for us we

1:25:41

justified in a cloak of righteous anger that I'm going to be righteously anger anger toward this sin and I I think that

1:25:49

emotionally Works people up but it doesn't help them to Think Through how they're handling it how they're treating

1:25:55

people how they're dealing with the issues processing in a reflective way and I'm not just a reflective guy but I

1:26:01

think we should reflect on how we're handling the issue and moving through

1:26:06

maybe the layers of of the emotional hurt and wounds the baggage

1:26:14

the the past judgments the pain you know all those kinds of things and just being

1:26:19

aggressive and trying to get Beyond it doesn't really help us to necessarily

1:26:24

get Beyond it there there's a there's a moment I had once in counseling um and

1:26:30

it isn't just once I've seen it multiple times where you know a husband and a

1:26:35

wife will will come in to sit down with me and let's just say one of them has had an affair so let's assume the man

1:26:42

has had an adulterous Affair sexual Affair and they sat down together and

1:26:47

you can kind of see this image of this female and male this hus wife and husband who are sitting side by side

1:26:55

and the husband's devastated and he's devastated because well

1:27:00

he's uh he's he's been caught just be honest he's been caught he's been caught in an offense against his wife and

1:27:07

against God and you know the wife is angry too though she's angry because

1:27:13

well she's been sinned against and this thing has been going on a long time and she didn't realiz it and so her her mind

1:27:20

is spinning about everything every single detail of this her husband's life

1:27:26

and you know they'll sit there they'll talk through it and you'll come to the end of a session and you'll ask the

1:27:31

question you know where do we go from here what needs to happen and usually I turn to the wife at this time and I just

1:27:37

say you know what do you want him to do because right now you can ask him to do

1:27:42

whatever you want and he'll probably do it at least if he wants to reconcile so there's been multiple times where I've

1:27:48

seen women rattle off five or 10 things that they want him to do and I've seen those men do those things

1:27:54

but it's the second session that always blows my mind so Tak it a week later you

1:28:00

know after the first week all the pain then they come back the next week maybe this week they're holding hands maybe

Reflecting on Reconciliation Dynamics

1:28:06

this week they're a little bit more reconciled this week they set on the couch next to each other and you know

1:28:12

they're both a little bit more put together they're more articulate their emotions are settled and you ask them

1:28:18

the questions right you ask them how was the week what happened da d d da did

1:28:24

your husband do all the things that he agreed that he was going to do and and you know the wife might answer yeah or

1:28:29

the husband might say yeah I did all the things and the next question that that should come out at some point is well

1:28:37

did you not only do what you agreed to do did you guys have a discussion about why you did the other thing like why did

1:28:46

you do that thing did you talk with your wife about it and you know usually the wife will go no he never talked with me

1:28:52

about it and usually the guy look at me like a deer in headlights like no and

1:28:57

I'm afraid of that topic I'm afraid to tell her the truth I'm afraid to deal

1:29:04

with the Demons Inside I'm afraid to tell her that I wanted something more exciting I I wanted to fulfill my sexual

1:29:12

desires I found this woman beautiful I've been thinking about her for a long time and then I acted upon it you know

1:29:19

most men are afraid of that and I think I'm I'm telling you the story will

1:29:24

because I I think sometimes it's that it's that re it's that men want to they

1:29:31

don't want to sit there and process that painful part they want to push through it with passivity or with anger too like

1:29:38

you're talking about and ignore the why because they are scared to deal with

1:29:44

that why and they are scared of the consequences of that why and those two things right there are a big deal so

1:29:51

sometimes I think we use anger sorry long answer again I don't know why I keep doing this great but uh I I think

1:29:59

we we do it we we think that if I just get angry against this compulsion and

1:30:04

sin that that's going to deal with it I'm finally going to put this thing down and we we fail to remember that that

1:30:11

Jesus Christ deals with the Eternal consequences of that that it's going to take time for the motivations and the

1:30:18

desires of our heart to change but we have to take a hard look at our our actions and we have to understand the

1:30:25

fusion between what we did and why we did it and if we understand the fusion

1:30:31

between what we did and why we did it then we might be able to allow the Holy

1:30:38

Spirit to address those Wayward desires rather than just come at them angrily

1:30:45

let the Holy Spirit deal with those desires that change our motivations that lead to change action

1:30:52

lead to restored relationships etc etc etc but we we just I think sometimes we

1:30:57

don't want to do the hard work you know like we don't want to do that hard work and I know it's scary but man we should

1:31:03

deal with the fusion between those two ask the why and the what question and

1:31:09

deal with it in our heart get some courage that's what it really requires not anger but just courage to take a

1:31:15

deep hard look at our soul and look at its darkness and say yeah we're done

1:31:21

with it but then let's take the right initiative out of it and usually it's not anger it's

1:31:29

reconciliation with Jesus and people around us thank you so much for saying all that

1:31:36

I I could not agree I could not agree more it's so easy for men to rock it

1:31:42

past why they did something and go straight to the solution and even you know execute on the solution for weeks

1:31:49

or even years kind of like running you know in the hopes I can just outrun this

1:31:55

aspect this core sinful aspect of myself it's like no bro you can't outrun it maybe it'll show up it maybe won't show

1:32:01

up in the way that it did but it'll show up again you know unless you actually go in and witness yourself through the

1:32:07

light of God's perfect word and see who you really are who we all really are all

1:32:12

of us and allow that to be healed and transformed by the Holy Spirit confession repentance prayer and and

1:32:19

restitution as well the reason why you confess sin to somebody to other people

1:32:25

is because the process of confession is so deeply humbling I don't ever want to feel that again and then restitution if

1:32:31

you have to make it right that that drives the lesson in so if you're just trying to rock it out past the thing

1:32:37

that you did onto the solution to some better brighter day just kick it into fifth gear it's like no that is going to

1:32:44

catch up with you well yeah it's going to come back around I mean you know you think about these marriages that I I use

1:32:50

that illustration because I think it works you know is it's a good example but sure you know if that if that guy

1:32:56

and that gal that husband and that wife don't reconcile the why guess what's going to happen it's going to happen

1:33:04

again that's right and we want to we want to put that thing down we want to deal with it permanently and then here's

1:33:11

the good news is if we really deal with it on the other side on the other side

1:33:17

then we can proudly share our witness without the shame and the wounds I mean

1:33:23

I was sitting down this this happened to me last week I was speaking at a marriage conference and um there was a

1:33:31

Hall of Famer baseball player there a world championship pitcher there won two

1:33:36

two rings I won't say his name wow but uh he he and his wife have this

1:33:41

incredible Ministry today just a fantastic Ministry I sat down at their table and I was talking with him and he

1:33:49

just very robustly will said yeah his wife is sitting right next to her

1:33:55

beautiful one sitting right next to her he goes yeah Vince in my former life I used to fornicate with prostitutes I was

1:34:02

I had girls in and out of my bedroom all the time I can't count how many women I slept with I was like looking at this

1:34:08

woman and she's like she's just not in her head because why because they had

1:34:15

reconciled all that they had reconciled it and so now he lives in the joy of

1:34:22

being being able to share his testimony and story without all this ridiculous shame now would I have said all those

1:34:28

things I don't know but it's all in his book I read his book it's all in the book anyway but but still at the same

1:34:34

time like it was so encouraging actually just to see her go yeah you did all

1:34:40

those things Vince and I'm like wow now they have turned all their pain and discouragement here's the hope people if

1:34:46

you're listening into Ministry on the other side because they have dealt with

1:34:51

it all all the why question are done all that Discovery between the what and the

1:34:57

why it's done they have new renewed Hearts they feel free from that and now

1:35:02

it turned it into Ministry and they talk about it so robustly I'm sure that it has redeemed other marriages as well

1:35:09

just because it says it's possible to get through just about anything with that kind of a

1:35:16

person right yeah and she can surely see that in him and he can see that in himself like I imagine he probably went

1:35:22

on a whole big Journey with that of going through his own was it was it repentance reconciliation and shame he

1:35:28

probably had his shame period that we talked about but then he's passed it it's like I'm I'm a new man but she sees

1:35:33

that in him she knows that in him and she can see that he's a new man and as a result they are truly past it and it

1:35:39

doesn't haunt them anymore as opposed to I suppose if he had just done some sort of Band-Aid solution said like now every

1:35:46

time I'm on I was on the road I would you know be on the phone with my wife all night or whatever it's like she would always have that doubt as any of

1:35:52

us would is is he really a regenerated person versus what he has become yeah I

1:35:58

think some of that is evidence of our regeneration right it's not it's not not

1:36:03

our anger but it's it's the way that we live that exemplifies that we have

1:36:10

worked through it and it's not aggression like I just I don't think you

1:36:15

know the the right kind of aggression is helpful but obviously the kind that

1:36:21

we're inferring here today in this conf ation is probably the wrong kind and we just need to do business with the issues

1:36:28

in our heart and start to ask the why question more frequently and I'm glad that you picked

1:36:34

up on that you know new style I don't know what to call it of sort of biblical masculinity that asserts itself in a

1:36:40

particular way and carries itself in a particular way and you know i' I saw it in my time in the manosphere I saw the

1:36:46

same attitude in my time in the manosphere and I watch that whole world absolutely implode and now I'm seeing it

1:36:52

in the Christian world world and it makes sense why it's shown up here as well and it's like guys this this ain't

1:36:58

it like this is why Christ died to free us from this right yes well said that is so good

1:37:06

because I think some of this comes too from our concerns about a feminine

1:37:13

Church yes I just I I've heard that too like so many conversations about the

1:37:19

church is too feminine I'm like yeah I don't know if I necessarily

1:37:24

agree with that um I there's whole books written on those topics I've read them

1:37:30

intriguing ideas but dressing up our church differently changing our

1:37:35

language I I I just don't know if that you know you know making things look

1:37:41

more of a masculine hex color and color code like right I I just don't know I

1:37:46

don't know if any of those things help but it's how we speak about Jesus as the ultimate man and

1:37:54

really just understanding we need to just go we need to go back to not not all all the design and you know all the

1:38:01

surface level stuff I mean Jesus said this too we're so worried about the outside of the bowl why are we worried

1:38:06

about the outside of the bowl let's worried about what's in the cup you know inside the bowl uh that concerns him so

1:38:13

that that's where that's where a man and a woman is formed on the things that are

1:38:18

on the inside that's a that's a great observation because I've heard those same ations the church is the church is

1:38:25

feminine or a feminite so now we're going to do we're going to make the mistake in the opposite direction like

1:38:31

you just whip right past by the right past the answer um so okay so so a question about so just a reminder that

1:38:38

to everyone listening you've been doing this for 30 years you know many men have started talking about masculinity over

1:38:44

the past 5 10 years the manosphere started in 2005 you've outpaced them all

1:38:49

by a good decade so as you've uh grown in your ministry as you've worked on this how have you a couple different

1:38:56

questions one what sort of phases have you grown through of the things that you've you've discovered and and learn

1:39:01

to talk about but then also how have you reinspection

1:39:13

[Laughter]

1:39:23

honest man that's honest I love it because I mean you know back when you

1:39:29

know 30 years ago promisee Keepers I mean that's where that grabbed a hold of my soul and

1:39:36

there's all kinds of reasons why it did number one it was so cool to see that many men gathered together but you have

1:39:44

to remember that that happened in a day when the the church in America didn't

1:39:49

have songs sung in a key that men could belt out songs in that's one of the

1:39:56

things that promisekeepers did well they didn't have male focused messages they

1:40:02

didn't have you know teachers and preachers that could address hard topics like they they did in those days they

1:40:10

didn't have a lot of these massive churches that now are the size of a

1:40:15

promisekeepers movement right right so and I think promisekeepers did a lot more than just those years I mean I

1:40:23

think it was something like 6 to 8 years they they lasted it wasn't very long but the movement was so impressionable I

1:40:29

mean people still talk about it today especially older guys but I I was pretty young when I went to a few of those

1:40:36

conferences um but I I think we we've seen an evolution of it the church has

1:40:42

has gotten better at some things I think at least the American church has gotten better at some things regarding men uh

1:40:50

worship uh groups Etc but one of the things that the promisekeepers really failed at that

Promise Keepers' Shortcomings

1:40:56

every leader in promisekeepers that I have talked to from that day admits was a failure they did a poor job of

1:41:03

connecting men into groups they did a poor job of creating a discipleship movement from those big events and those

1:41:10

those events were epic I mean I still listen to albums uh

1:41:16

CDs CD ROM from back in the day um from those

1:41:22

events that that touch my soul still today but I I really do think that the

1:41:27

movement has changed and it it started to take on what we've already talked about today this this aggressive

1:41:35

edgy kind of feel thinking that we need to add all that that fluff is wrong word

1:41:42

all that edge to men to get them to come uh you know I just don't I don't think

1:41:48

it's really necessary anymore and and the evolution that I think we are in in

1:41:54

today is just reclaiming biblical manhood is helping men to

1:42:01

understand that it's okay to be a patriarch that there's a beautiful a

1:42:08

beautiful depiction of the patriarchy in the Bible and that we can live that out

1:42:15

and To Boldly Live It Out To Boldly live it out in in our in our workplace in our

1:42:21

church with our friends in our family and I think that's where the movement

1:42:26

has to go today is we have to empower men to understand that they can be a

1:42:35

Biblical man in the context of every environment that they're in that we

1:42:40

don't necessarily have to go to a conference to hear about biblical masculinity or biblical manhood that we

1:42:46

can we can hear about it in the context of God's word that we can drive our

1:42:52

family back to it I think one of the the biggest turns I have seen in this during

1:42:59

my time happened during covid where everything is shut down families are

1:43:05

driven back together and I know for so many men that was the reclaiming and the

1:43:11

Readjustment spiritually of their family their family was now back at home and they could make some readjustments in in

1:43:19

how they how they LED how they loved how they served how they spiritually passed

1:43:26

on things to their family and I even think the culture today will is

1:43:33

driving uh is becoming so if if I can say this woke and broke that driving men

1:43:40

in their families to consider how am I teaching my kids how am I passing on a

1:43:48

legacy to them biblically it's forcing them to rethink everything I also think this the younger generation that's

1:43:56

coming up and I'm speaking of anywhere from about 25 and younger they are

1:44:03

craving an understanding of God's word I I am hearing more and more from younger

1:44:08

men because you now you start to see a little bit of the generational Gap I'm talking about big movement Splash in the

1:44:16

pan a flash in the pan you know 25 years ago or so with

Revival of Personal Faith Responsibility

1:44:21

promisekeepers that de evolves then we have kind of a lot of the the uh Ed

1:44:29

re-education the re-educating of young people in America we have kind of what's

1:44:36

happened to to liberalism in the church even and now because there's been this broken

1:44:43

Legacy between fathers and their children we now have a younger

1:44:48

generation starving for it like I was starving for it as a gen or years ago

1:44:54

looking for answers so I think this next turn this next turn is going to be a lot

1:45:00

about personal responsibility with our faith I think you're going to hear more about apologetics even more than we hear

1:45:06

now people are going to start turning to the Bible for real and specific answers

1:45:12

which should give you hope as a podcast where people can come and explore you know through a question format answers

1:45:19

to some of those things even push back on some of those things I think you're going to see a rising dialogue in small

1:45:26

groups of men where they start and and women too obviously where they start exploring the truths of the Bible and

1:45:33

realizing that what we're doing in the church doesn't match that you're going to see a small Reformation movement I

1:45:40

think I think that's what's about to happen is a small Reformation movement so anyway I think just hold on hold on

1:45:48

we we will see a a wake of renewal it's going to be a a different manifestation

1:45:54

of it but I think it's going to be a ground swell and it's it's not going to be like the the Jesus movement back in

1:46:02

the you know' 6070s it's not going to be like that it's going to be more of a ground swell of of curiosity about the

1:46:08

faith and exploration around the faith through apologetics and and seeking real

1:46:13

answers to things where pastors are forced not to just give shallow superv visual message any messages anymore

1:46:20

they're going to be forced to like crack open the Bible and give give some answers and that's what I'm starting to hear from younger Generations is I want

1:46:27

to find a church that addresses these issues like really addresses them and I visit a lot of churches and I can tell

1:46:33

you which ones are addressing it and all the young people are going to these ones

1:46:39

that aren't afraid of the topics they're willing to dig in they're willing to answer questions and I think it's

1:46:45

Reviving some older generations to like say yeah we we know

1:46:51

some of the answers to these things we want to die into it too and they're starting we're starting to see you'll start to see I think these these older

1:46:58

and younger Generations probably come back together again see the op the older generation seeing the opportunity for

1:47:05

evangelism with younger people and the craving of a younger generation for answers so that that's where I think

1:47:11

we're we're going in the next 10 years or so that is very encouraging because I

1:47:16

see I at the moment and and I agree with you that we need to just hold on because at the moment it seems like the

1:47:22

generations are going going high speed in opposite directions with a lot of resentment a lot of bitterness hatred

1:47:28

avoidance all that stuff but I I like the idea that there there is a genuine spiritual hunger that that a lot of men

1:47:34

have for the for the word of God itself not cute spiritual answers not catchphrases but what does the word

1:47:41

actually say that I can root my life on and I think that there is a generation of older men that have those answers

1:47:47

it's just making sure that they find their way together and they find and and each finds the answers that they need I

1:47:53

I think that that's the part that's the part that I'm hopeful that the internet and podcasts and conversation can

1:47:59

facilitate well and and you're nailing it here I'm beginning to I'm going to tell you what I'm going to do for the

1:48:05

next 20 years all right let's go I here's what I'm doing so my YouTube

1:48:12

channel I do daily devotionals and weekly studies I go through the Bible a chapter a week that's it so each day a

1:48:19

little snippet of a chapter and at the end of the week a full chapter

1:48:24

but I'm turning to a YouTube audience and I'm treating them like my

1:48:30

church I am turning to them and I'm speaking directly to them kind of like you're doing here actually but speaking

1:48:37

directly to that audience and here's why I don't want to be another Pastor on a

1:48:43

platform another Alpha on a stage just posting a sermon on YouTube there's

1:48:49

nothing wrong with that but I want to evangelize YouTube there's 2.5 what billion users

1:48:57

on that platform 2.5 billion there's my audience right there it's

1:49:03

worldwide last two months we have led500 people to Jesus Christ using our

1:49:11

videos that's where I believe we need to go and why because everything we've

1:49:17

already said I've told you all the sauce it's people want anonymity people want to say safe place to learn people are

1:49:24

looking for Community they're looking for adequate teachers they're looking for someone who will speak to them they're looking for someone who will

1:49:30

open the Bible fuse together the generations I in my I'm in my mid-50s

1:49:36

I'm a grandfather now right I have something to share with a younger generation and I want to share it with

1:49:41

them like my grandfather did with me and I just want to pour it back and hopes

1:49:47

that the next Generations that are rising up will get to enjoy God's word

1:49:52

and maybe experience the same turn that I did in my faith and at Old 58 Chevy with my

1:49:57

grandfather I love that story do you have time for me yes do you have time for me to ask you a couple more questions yeah let's take a couple more

1:50:04

minutes yeah great so so so you mentioned and I think this is a really important one that I love asking my

1:50:10

guests so one of the questions I get most from women is they're married and their husbands are are in that

1:50:16

complacent kind of way and the women are wondering how can I Inspire my husband

1:50:21

without without nagging or without pestering like how can I Inspire my husband to take a more more active role

1:50:28

either with his faith in the community or in the home and women genuinely they they they ask from a very good place how

1:50:34

can I Inspire my husband to take this spot so maybe with your experience speaking into men you can help answer

1:50:40

that for the women yeah that's that's one of my favorite questions by the way because I I love it when women are

1:50:46

trying to figure out an angle um I I would keep it real simple

1:50:51

for a guy I I would I would just say to say to him as a husband like look let's

1:50:58

try to take some initiative this year where where could you take initiative like in our marriage uh with our kids

1:51:05

something of that nature spiritually and and then release them to do that but if

1:51:12

you want to step back even a little further from that it's catching your husband doing

1:51:20

the things that you like him to do I'm going to go back to Ephesians 5 just

1:51:26

respect respect your husbands I there's something about

1:51:32

respect of a wife to a husband that fuels a man and it doesn't take much

1:51:41

when when my wife says something to me like this you are a great

1:51:48

father I love the way you spent time with your son I think you're really having a

1:51:56

spiritual impact in her life or daughter those things are fuel for a

1:52:03

very small small lit fire in a man's heart when women do that they have no

1:52:09

idea no idea how that just fans in the flame you see I I I'm out I listen I

1:52:16

listen to women I listen to wives and most of the W most of the times the wives are very disparaging of their

1:52:22

husband husbands most of the time men are very disparaging of their wives we've got to eliminate we've got to

1:52:27

eliminate all of that side talk I mean we should not be talking in a

1:52:35

disparaging way about each other's spouse I shouldn't do it for my wife and

1:52:42

my wife shouldn't do it for me but I know there's too many small groups and too many conversations out there where

1:52:47

this is happening a lot but let's just take that off the table and turn it positive remember not reactive proactive

1:52:55

so now let's encourage our wives today I would just say to her to the wives out there today like encourage your husband

1:53:02

in the direction you want them to go it's powerful if you include it with a pat on the butt it's even better right

1:53:10

you just have to give them a little a little push you know and it's remarkable

1:53:15

with men spiritually that are spiritually complacent it just takes a little bit to kind of get that going

1:53:20

where they they suddenly imag will suddenly fuse together the reality that hey wait I can have a spiritual

1:53:26

influence most men don't understand how to have a spiritual influence because it they haven't been spiritually influenced

1:53:32

by a father the breakdown in one generation to a next is all we need to

1:53:37

forget anything I mean just turn back to uh the Israelites being freed from Egypt

1:53:44

they didn't forget but one generation when they're wondering in the wilderness what God had done the miraculous thing

1:53:49

God has done we forget everything we have to remember that because of the

1:53:57

the break the break between generations and spiritual Heritage that sometimes we

1:54:03

we have to encourage encourage movement in that direction and and sometimes men

1:54:09

are afraid to admit this specifically husbands so women if you're listening sometimes your husband doesn't know how

1:54:15

to do that and he's very embarrassed and ashamed that he doesn't know and he doesn't want to play his cards that he

1:54:20

doesn't know so what does it look like to take spiritual initiative what does it look like to be a spiritual leader

1:54:26

most men don't know they literally can't give you an answer even though the most

1:54:31

popular Story one of the most popular stories in the Bible is Jesus washing feet we we miss we miss the Simplicity

1:54:41

in the fact that the greatest leader of all time just washed feet is just serve

1:54:46

your wife just serve your kids and don't just serve them tangibly serve them spiritually like understand how to serve

1:54:53

them spiritually you you could encourage your husband to say hey could you send out a text with a little devotional

1:55:01

thought in it like once a week to our family it could be as simple as that so here's a story for you you'll love this

1:55:08

one so so uh years ago years ago I was trying to figure out how to have a a

1:55:14

spiritual influence on my family and I knew every one of my kids had one of these and I paid for it it's expensive

1:55:23

too man it's expensive I'm paying for it they have every one of my kids had one of these in their hand or in their

1:55:29

pocket so I told my wife here's what I'm going to do I'm going to send out a

1:55:35

daily devotional to every one of our kids so that included my daughter my two

1:55:40

sons my daughter's boyfriend who was just a boyfriend at the time he's he's now her husband and we have a

1:55:47

granddaughter yeah a grandson sorry grandson and my wife so there were five there were five people on this text

1:55:53

right so I said I was going to do it for 30 days so I picked up my phone and I started I just took a little piece of

1:56:00

text Will and a little thought I mean it was like this big yay big and I was

1:56:06

going to do it for 30 days to see if I could to have a spiritual influence on their life okay so I get about 20 days in or

1:56:14

so and I look down at my phone and I realize that everything on my phone was

1:56:22

you know that gray text but no blue text meaning no one had replied to me no one

1:56:30

after 20 days well now I can't unsee that thing so what begins to happen to

1:56:36

me as a father is I begin to go through this cycle of Shame and regret and disappointment in myself so day 21 I'm

1:56:43

sending the text and I'm like why am I sending this thing you know day 22 still

1:56:48

no reply this is a waste of time day 23

1:56:54

you thought this was going to work what a fool you are day 24 even your wife doesn't respond to you I mean she didn't

1:56:59

even send me a text no like little woohoo Emoji no one of these no nothing

1:57:05

man I got nothing from any of them no blue text day 30 comes by this time I'm

1:57:11

angry you know I'm just like angry and disappointed I've worked through all the emotions and all the voices and at We

1:57:19

Day 30 I'm sending the text I send it and I go I remember saying this out loud thank God that's

1:57:26

over day 31 first reply in Dad's daily dvo it's

1:57:32

called triple D first reply my daughter sends a text message and says Dad

1:57:37

where's our dvo I reply back in a sarcastic tone

1:57:44

didn't know you read it question mark question mark question mark a bunch of question marks you know across the

1:57:49

across the the text and then she immediately calls me immediately she

1:57:54

picks up the phone I answer she goes dad stop worrying about yourself send us

1:58:02

our dvo we all read your stinking dvo not only that we send it out to all of

1:58:08

our friends I go I said whatever she goes no we all send it out to our friends I said even Grant yeah even

1:58:15

Grant even Riley yeah Riley send us our Divo so I sent day 31

1:58:22

day 35 day 35 Comes This literally happens I get a phone call Anonymous

1:58:28

call I picked it up I didn't know why guy's on the phone guy goes he says this random guy goes is

1:58:36

this Vince I go yeah he goes I just need to let you know Vince I ain't got much time but your daughter sent my daughter

1:58:43

a devotional that you sent on text and she sent it to me and he pauses and I

1:58:48

thought he was going to be angry and he goes I just wanted to call you and tell you thank you for sending that out I

1:58:56

needed to hear that today and then he hung up he didn't tell me his name who he was none of that I never knew who

1:59:02

that was okay I'm paying attention god well

1:59:07

today today this is not about me but today over a 100,000 people read my

1:59:14

devotionals every day because I decided to send him out to the world and guess what what yes aund th I said send out a

1:59:22

100,000 emails every single day and and you can see how many people are

1:59:28

listening on YouTube it turned in to this incredible event in a very short

1:59:33

period of time not only that it turned into three devotional books put out by David C cook and turned into other books

1:59:40

that you're holding in your hand that David C cook wanted to write with me I that one right there yeah so I mean I I

1:59:48

let me let me come back to my point now women if you're listening today

1:59:54

sometimes all it takes is a little nudge just a little nudge a little encouragement and by the way if your

2:00:00

husband sends out a text send a reply encourage

2:00:06

him along the way it'll help to keep the spirits High because men disqualify

2:00:14

themselves they disqualify themselves and women you can help in silencing that

2:00:20

voice of self disqual ification you're right I do love that

2:00:25

story what an incredible story thank you for that praise God I I I didn't I

2:00:31

didn't I would never have thought that it would end up with a 100,000 people reading the emails I I wouldn't have

2:00:37

thought that that was the seed that got planted that would have blossomed to this into this glorious tree I I would I

2:00:43

wouldn't have either dude like I I had no plans for that all I know is when I started writing them I thought to myself

2:00:49

this is daily so you have to do this every day but I'm a committed guy and here we

2:00:57

are daily devotionals through the entire Bible oh and that's the that's the daily

2:01:02

devotional that you do now just a little like a sentence or a verse or two and then you just provide a little bit of commentary right right beneath yeah on

2:01:10

video audio and written written formats you can find it on YouTube so go right there fantastic well then I just have

2:01:17

one more question for you because I want to make sure that we get a moment to talk about this uh this ENT series The

2:01:22

the forging godi Men series again this book is this is what eight n bucks on on

2:01:28

uh on on Amazon not expensive 140 Pages you can rip through it in a couple days

2:01:34

and like I said this I and I wouldn't just say this I believe me I would not just said say this I've read so many

2:01:40

books about masculinity and Christian masculinity this one was really great and I think the listeners now who have

2:01:45

been listening can understand why I felt that way so maybe just talk about the series of books that you're putting out

2:01:50

and then we'll we'll close on that and and and let people know where they can find more about you yeah so this is a

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three book series we're calling it The forged Men series uh the first book that

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you're holding in your hand there the orange one that is one that takes men through the gospel it's the point is to

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help men to understand the gospel through a Biblical worldview by using my

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story so they understand how to communicate their story the second book is all on spiritual disciplines it's

2:02:21

about to be released I think in just a couple of weeks okay and then the third

Leadership Study Guide for Men

2:02:26

book is sometime next year it's already written but it's on leadership for men

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basic roles for men to help them to understand how to lead in those roles so all three of these books make a

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compilation a study for men to go through with a group of people or on their own uh they can do it with a with

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a friend with a son with a neighbor an uncle nephew whoever or in a group together with a group of men we have

2:02:54

some videos online that complement that as well and my hope is that men would just take it read it and be encouraged

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as men in a very positive way around the gospel thank you well that's what it

2:03:06

that's definitely what it did for me and I'm looking forward to that second book as well yeah great I'll send you one how about that deal throw a hat in I'll pay

2:03:15

for the hat so uh this has been fantastic thank

2:03:20

you so much this has been been so encouraging to me as a man who works with men and has seen many different

2:03:26

phases of it not as many as you have obviously and I appreciate your Devotion to men and and your wisdom and Clarity

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that you speak into their lives and your commitment so thank you this has been an inspiration to me likewise will thanks

2:03:40

for asking good questions I don't normally get questions as good by the way but uh thank you and uh blessings on

2:03:47

your ministry and to everybody listening today uh if anybody wants to reach out you just go to Vince miller.com you go

2:03:54

to my website I'd love to hear from you but uh thank you again for being a part

2:04:00

of this part of part of my journey right here it's a fun part and it's getting pretty exciting amen thank you so much Vince