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[Music]

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hello my name is Will Spencer and welcome to the will Spencer podcast this is a weekly Show featuring in-depth

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conversations with authors leaders and influencers who help us understand our changing World new episodes release

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every Friday this is episode two of my three-part series from my podcast booth

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at the fight laugh Feast conference in late October if you haven't listened to my first episode with Isaac botkin and

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Logan Riser definitely go do that now those two men kicked off my weekend at the conference in style talking about

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the impact of faith on both Commerce and art those interviews will set the stage for you for how things generally go out

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there at flf today's episode brings together two Journeys one from the heights of secular Finance to Christian

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precious medals trading and another a distinguished career in reformed apologetics which he's now taken on the

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road literally for my regular listeners one of these two guests won't need an introduction so we'll save that

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particular guest for after so first up we have Jim hunter from Alps precious medals Jim and I were talking privately

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in a sort of green room for sponsors and speakers and he had an intriguing story of his Awakening to the corruption of

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the financial industry after a career in High Finance since then he's transitioned to running alp's precious

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medals Group which offers physical precious metals trading and storage in the United States and Europe among many

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other services Jim is one of those rare believers who has put his lifetime of experience in an important industry to

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Bear for the benefit of fellow Christians that is a trend that I'm thrilled to see Professionals of all

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Stripes like doctors lawyers software engineers and more are leaving their mainstream professional worlds to serve

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their brothers and sisters in Christ putting their knowledge and experience into service for the kingdom Jim is

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doing just that from a place of scriptural awareness and faithfulness which I think you'll hear and perhaps

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that's why he also appeared on Cross politic as well you can find that link in the show notes then the second guest

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on this episode is none other than Dr James White the legendary apologist author and debater who has conducted

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close to 200 moderated public debates with Roman Catholics Muslims Mormons the

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lgbtq community and more as it turns out Dr White has also been my most requested

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guests on this podcast and not just by y'all but also me because early in my exploration of reformed theology it was

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his 1990s debates with men like Jerry mattics that helped me determine for myself that reformed theology was the

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place to be in our wide- ranging hour-long conversation Dr White and I explore his new RV lifestyle we dive

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into the latest biblical criticism tools as we try to make our way into a discussion of the resurgent Roman

2:58

Catholic Church though that last topic we have to wait for a future episode along the way we get a surprise visit

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from Keith fosy host of the popular your calvinist podc Keith ducked in to share

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the story of how he and Dr White met and it's one of those moments that I wish I had caught on camera so you could see

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the face he makes but you'll just have to imagine it thanks especially to Dr White for sitting with me for an hour a

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man like him at an event like that his time is very valuable I was blessed for the chance to meet and talk face to face

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with a man that I esteem highly and I hope our conversation blesses you as well again this is episode two of a

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three-part series the third and final episode next week will feature a discussion of Christianity and film with

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Parker Brown of the watchwellcast plus interviews with the father and son Duo of Andrew and Samuel borneman Andrew is

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a missionary farmer with wild stories of his work with a native tribe in Mexico and his son Samuel is the author of a

3:57

young adult novel about Christianity and transhumanism that was one of my most memorable conversations of the

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conference now friends we're not just recording conversations here we're part of a restoration project for Christian

4:10

civilization in the west and I need you in this fight with me there are a couple ways that you can join this Mission

4:16

first when you stop by Spotify or apple podcast take a moment to write a review about how these conversations impacted

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you your words might be exactly what someone else needs to hear to give this show their first listen and you you know

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those conversations that hit you right between the eyes the ones that shifted your thinking share those not because

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I'm chasing download numbers but because we're in a war for the soul of our culture and these conversations are

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ammunition for the right side for those ready to go deeper with us head over to will spencer. substack

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docomo names remember they're not just business businesses they're allies building Christian economic strength for

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generations to come supporting them isn't just opening your wallet it's investing in an American Reformation

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because this isn't just about entertainment anymore this is economic Warfare and service of the kingdom and

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please welcome our guests for this week's episode first up a man who traded Wall Street wisdom for Kingdom wealth

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building Jim Hunter and sitting down with us for a full 60 Minutes a voice

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that shaped reform thinking for a generation you know him from the debate stage the pulpit and probably your own

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theological Journey Dr James

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White Jim thanks so much for joining me on the podcast to connect talk uh yesterday briefly about gold I had to

Jim Hunter

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run to go on my own podcast with the Reformation red pill but uh tell the people a little bit about what you do

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and and the blessings that you share with the Christian Community sure I am in the uh physical gold and silver

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trading and vaulting business okay I have our company is based in Pensacola

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Florida but I have Partners two partners in the United States uh one actually in

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your hometown Phoenix Scottdale um monetary Metals which is a uh that

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partner focuses on getting return on gold and return on silver one of the biggest push backs for physical gold and

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silver is like well GE I I just put it in my house and I don't get any cash flow from it sure but monetary medals is

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is essentially they they have not made a new mouse trap it's just going back to the way things were sure 100 plus years

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ago it was standard operating procedure you would have gold bonds gold leases and that's all they've done is brought

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that back typically the borrowers are a a a small gold mine that needs to build a a small Refinery outside the mouth of

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the mine Jewelers gold dealers Etc firms that need to lease gold and they'd like

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to stay away from Banks because banks will handcuff them from what they like to do okay my other partner in the

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United States is Texas precious metals based in Shiner Texas which we're here

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in Fort Worth it's about three 3 4 hours to the southeast of here okay Christian

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family from top to bottom the original patriarch of the Casper KP family was a

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Lutheran missionary to the Prairie Land of Texas in the late 19th century okay

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now now he did nothing but preach the gospel in open Lutheran Churches but his son got in the wire business right when

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barbed wire came in okay and his wire uh uh business eventually evolved into the

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shopping carts okay and then after that uh many of your listeners may not know

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of these things but not that long ago when newspapers were ubiquitous to buy

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one on the street there was a kind of a a a wiish uh canister that you would

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open put in a quarter or two quarters and open the all of the wire and all of those boxes all over the world came from

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caser that's a good good business so needless to say they become a very very very wealthy family sure and then after

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the 0809 crisis uh the family was like we need to figure something out that

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evolved into Texas precious metals okay and they're one of the largest private dealers in the country uh and certainly

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one of the largest private faults in the country and that's the whole key to what we bring to the table is the ability for

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Christian families and especially will the churches I've been on sessions vestes

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Etc when most Church sessions are thinking we're going to be conservative

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that translates into I'm going to buy put a CD in A Bank buy treasury bills Etc but normally it's CDs in the

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bank um those CDs after the dodf Frank law has come into existence are not

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sankran and they would be in Jeopardy if we do 0809 again yeah uh without getting

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way into the weeds it's simply title to of the dodf Frank law if anybody pulls

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that up they'll they'll be shocked at what at how the corporate structure has changed if you get into another

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insolvency ancy of the Wall Street PS got it so that's how we ad value by by

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converting Dollars to physical gold they not asking people to like their hair on

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fire and turn Go 100% gold sure but we are saying what gold does is it rallies in

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chaos mhm best finette and I can give you others but in September

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11th 2001 when the planes set the towers in new yor gold was traded $275 an ounce

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we 23 years l and we have essentially 10 axed gold over that period of

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time that blows away the S&P 500 that blows way you know now are there C did

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it be Bitcoin well no there's certain you know things that come along but if we look on Market averages there's no

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comparison absolutely so the question simply at this stage of the game is

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simply well CH should I get into gold now cuz we're on a nominal high right um

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it really comes down to the question of chaos do we if we saw the chaos going

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forward should be less then you would tend to want to get out of gold and and

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go back into risky uh more riskier Ventures or if I could trust the banking

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system I I think neither one of those are true if I end up being wrong let's say a

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uh a h either uh wealthy family or a wealthy family took a 10% position in

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goal or a church 10% position in goal if I end up being wrong and the chaos goes

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down and everything's great and the stock market keeps going higher well

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okay you bought some only went down but it's going to be more than made up for in terms of what you're of the rally but

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if I'm right and the chaos continues if a 10% position over 20

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years deed your entire portfolio cuz it's up 10x right 10% up 10x I covered

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the whole thing even if it all wents to zero yep that's where we're coming from that's where we think we have life so we

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were talking you and I yesterday hello ma'am you and I were talking yesterday about some of your background and High

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Finance and the things that you saw you're like uh so talk a little bit about about that because you've had a

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unique window into a particularly corrupt part of society that impacts

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everybody but not a lot of people come out of that world and say hey it's a mess in there right so maybe you could

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talk a little bit about that sure started in the institutional fixed income business which means the bond B

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the bond world if you heard the uh the book The Bonfire of the vanities by Tom

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Wolf that's that's where where I was okay um I worked for Mar Lynch I worked

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for Leman Brothers over about a 15year period and then in ' 03 I excuse me 05 I

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started a structured credit head fund with a partner of mine in a little town

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called Fair Hope Alabama I was born and raised in Alabama my partner was on the very first

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credit default swap desk for uh CIBC in New York oh wow he had moved back to

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phoh as I did to kind of get out of that game credit default swaps were bad they

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were great until they got levered oh okay the concept of credit default swap

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is fine what is not fine is when you lever that credit default swap over

12:59

multiple time whether it's a great default swap or filling the blank Futures contracts Etc once you start

13:05

Levering those because you've got free money from the central banking system Ah that's where you get into trouble got it

13:12

okay so the so the film The Big Short yes uh uh even a a better one is Margin

13:18

Call have you ever seen Margin Call I've heard of both of those Margin Call is having been in some of those rooms

13:24

Margin Call absolutely Nails it okay and it it gives you a great picture of in a

13:30

very condensed 2hour film of what happened in OA okay but we were we were

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a uh a small structured credit hedge fund we were short investment grade credit risk and when the credit World

13:46

fell apart our fund did very well okay the problem was is what is the Dan

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numont of that one of the ways we competed with Wall Street was we said to our accounts we will give you 3-day

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liquid we will not have any uh trap doors or Gates or all a lot of the

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nonsense that happened with the hedge funds during that period of time well as a result we did what we said we were

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going to do and we went from 35 million in assets under management to two well because we were a source of liquidity it

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was it was that was the right thing to do and a lot of our accounts were like you're the only guys that'll give us

14:22

liquidity you're the only ones that have done the right thing right so we did the right thing went

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back long story short the our swap counterparties were uh some

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of the the investment banks in Wall Street they were having trouble paying

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us even though we were a little bitty nothing yeah in in fourth quarter of 08

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fast forward the clock N9 months same guy totally different attitude in the summer of what would have been uh 20 uh

14:55

2009 mhm we went from where we we were helping them to oh y'all aren't big

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enough y'all don't get to play anymore and we were sitting there saying this is Rich these guys should be out of

15:08

business we shouldn't even be talking to this guy and yet we're being told that we can't we're too small to do this

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trade now that was sort of a a a I mean I'd already worked on Wall Street yeah

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but this was kind of the crowning event right and I had you were just invited

15:28

out of room that you had just helped a lot of folks out in yeah yeah just

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surreal yeah and uh cool like five minutes ago so uh did some independent stuff and

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eventually there was a family office that was um one of our clients in the in the structure credit hedge fund and they

15:48

were contemplating building a vault in the northern hemisphere um but the

15:53

patriarch of the family hired me to go do the due diligence so I went to Europe t talk to Lloyds of London talked to uh

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Julius bear one of the big uh Bank gold dealers in in Zurich but ended up

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meeting a a company that was brand new called leitstein precious metals tiny little country of leitstein okay two

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families two families took their own Capital built this thing from scratch their own Capital own building own uh

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insured by Lloyds of London uh so you you are able to store and

16:30

trade your gold and silver not dealing with a bank not dealing with the government and not deing with a broker company okay this was the answer so I

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started my little company in Pensacola because these guys in Europe were like sure we'd love for to have a partner in

16:45

the United States and help us you know build out our clientele we are 8 years old we're over

16:52

8 years old now um and over that time how the the Holy Spirit directs

16:59

things I mean I've ended up talking to a lot of Americans that are like okay we love the concept but we really don't

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want it offshore we love it onshore and through a series of events that's how I met the guys in Shiner Texas okay and

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thanks be to God you know only he could have directed me right to a family that

17:18

is the some of the most robust Christians you're going to meet got it and that's who you're partner is so when

17:24

when you when the churches Christian individuals are thinking of how do

17:30

um I'm not sure things are right right what can I do and that's where we step

17:37

in okay and so so the people who partner with you they're it's not some offshore gold company this is here in Texas with

17:43

a family of Christians so that you can be assured that the people that you're partnering with share your values

17:49

correct that's not some Fly by Night you know some sort of okay great I mean what a what a blessing for family so you've

17:54

probably seen it touch a lot a lot of lives that way absolutely yeah so what has it been like for you to go through

18:00

that I guess maybe personal or even spiritual Evolution to have been within the High Finance world and to be putting

18:06

your foundation on gold and on faith like what has that been like for you personally sure it's well it's it's been

18:14

just I spent a lot of time so starting as I said started in 1989 I had a hedge

18:20

fund that was great because I was at my partner was Christian so what we were doing doing in our office was was

18:27

outstanding yeah and blessed by God but you're it's who you're dealing with right in this situation now I'm coming

18:34

from the position of well we are we are the bank we are quote unquote the bank

18:41

but we are the direct partner and with out counterparties this is a this these

18:49

families if if one of our listeners wanted to be offshore is offshore we can

18:54

do that in in Europe but most of your listeners are probably in the United States yeah you I mean this is we don't

19:01

have to talk to anybody else there's no this is going directly to the people that built it and and I'm dealing with a

19:08

Christian brother so it's it's it has been nothing but a gift from God praise

19:15

God yes I can I can see the enthusiasm that's that's the thing that comes

19:21

across because I I know a lot of people they get themselves embedded in in industries that are we'll say theologically diverse right whether

19:28

they're atheist or whe pagans or materialists or whatever and so to some extent it's necessary as Christians to

19:34

to work with the outside world we can't completely separate but to be able to do things on our own terms is such a is

19:41

such a blessing and so I I can I can tell them you know the way you're nodding and the way and when we were talking yesterday it's like this was a

19:48

big step that you needed to take from this world that you had come up in to to something that can support you and offer

19:54

blessings to more people right and I so I had a conversation our booth today and it's like the you know why' you do it or

19:59

what and and and it it really comes down to the fact that I as opposed

20:06

to selling 25 million worth of a a commercial mortgage back security yeah

20:13

that was issued by a government agency okay well I don't believe in the government agency I do believe in in you

20:20

know my helping my clients that wanted to buy those sort of bonds but at the

20:26

end of the day you're not but I I don't believe in this yeah this is a totally

20:31

different story if Will Spencer and his family get involved I it is not only is

20:38

it clear conscience it's like I have truly added value yes I may not see you

20:43

again for a year but I know but I know that I added value to it and and and

20:48

what's even more interesting now is that some of the at least one Bank large Bank

20:55

uh the CIBC Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce and this is a real value ad for

21:00

a church for a family you can have your deposit with us in gold in China

21:07

yeah but CIBC is going to treat that deposit as if you had the deposit with

21:12

them in their Bank meaning you can have the full Suite of financial services if

21:19

you want them you need a home equity loan you need a line of credit you need a building loan you need a whatever

21:25

they're going to give it to you but they never get the deposit and that's the key of what we were talking about earlier

21:31

relative to the dodf Frank law The Dodd Frank law is going to allow what is essentially a claw in of the of the

21:38

defunct Bank to go after the deposits of their depositors it is a it's terrible

21:44

very good oh no it's how does like that get passed because because either a lot

21:51

of times the congressman don't even know what they're doing they don't understand they don't understand capital structure

21:56

um if you go back to uh Cypress in 2013 and look at the

22:01

Meltdown of those two Banks over there this is exactly the model that's being used I see by the ECB by the fed and the

22:09

US government it's terrible but it's true got it now is it a tail risk event

22:16

yeah it's a tail risk event but if it but so was 0809 so was the Great Depression so you got to for this not to

22:23

be a material risk it you have to say I don't believe that's ever going to happen again

22:29

yeah D I don't think that's wise right so you're being wise as a serpent is

22:34

innocent as a dove and you're and again think of it

22:40

this way you're coming with not lying your hair on fire not going 100% gold 10

22:46

15 20 some number yeah but now you've got the deposit where you're in the position of strength

22:53

not the bank they don't have your deposit they can't Mucky around with it right they can't 90% lend it out and

23:00

keep 10% for you right yeah this is all you and you face this now you're facing

23:06

the system in a position of strength got it you can do the same thing with IAS

23:11

you can now IAS you still have the government Claw on them right because of the fact that it's a tax-free um

23:18

instrument Etc but at least you're in physical gold and silver got it so there there are lots of different ways

23:25

where a family a church a corporation that has ass God's given them assets

23:32

there's you do not have to be beholden to a system which is sadly uh one that

23:38

needs to be bulldozed and start over again if do you know if if if the system

23:45

was a true capitalist system JP Morgan wouldn't exist neither

23:51

would Goldman Sachs neither with City Bank neither would Bank of America neither would Morgan stanard that's right all five of those guys were

23:57

functionally insolvent what should have happened is they should have been sold for pennies on the dollar and there were

24:02

plenty of other institutions around the country that didn't have their exposure right but we didn't do the way we should

24:10

have and so you've got guys flying around in airplanes that are very important quote unquote and they

24:16

shouldn't be in the airplanes the Mal feasance the mismanagement the incompetence the corruption and this is

24:23

it's it's not just rewarded it's just sustained and you have smaller players that can't even how can you compete in

24:29

an environment where corruption is rewarded and smaller players have to play by the rules it's completely it's

24:36

completely upside down rules for thee and not for me correct correct and everyone feels that I think they can

24:41

feel the sense of like wait a minute so I try to be a good person I play by the rules financially pay my taxes on time

24:47

etc etc right right and like I now there's what 70,000 additional IRS

24:52

agents chasing after they're chasing there was some law passed they're chasing after what is it um non-real

24:58

gain something like that oh which is you want to kill the you want to kill American I mean if that's the dumbest

25:04

thing that ever came down the yeah it should be criminal and you look at the top of that you see corruption being

25:10

rewarded at the highest levels it's it's it's hard not to get discouraged in that environment but but if we're wise as

25:18

serpents and inoc as Dobbs we'll go okay there's your there's the playing field

25:25

how can I maneuver around that player playing field the one wait one of the way one of the ways to do it is get to a

25:31

position of strength and keep in mind if I you know will you I probably discuss

25:37

five or six you know different reasons rationale for why you want to be long old yeah forget them all and remember

25:44

the one the one crowning argument what is the number one

25:51

physical or tangible asset outside of their real estate of every government in

25:56

the world it's physical go gold 80 8,133 tons is the size of the of US

26:04

Government Federal Reserve position that's value right now is 700 billion

26:10

okay uh it's their fail safe right what if I don't let the futurist Market fool

26:16

around with gold anymore because I've run out of options and I just let gold fly well GE wi if I move the decimal one

26:24

to the right and goal is not uh 3,000 or 2900 ounce is 29,000 oun I went from an

26:31

asset of 700 trillion to 700 billion is 7 trillion yeah let it moved twice and

26:37

now I don't got a debt problem that's right I'm just saying I just want to be

26:42

on the same side of the trade as those guys are that's a good point it's very compelling so well thank you so much Jim

26:48

this been great where can people where can people find out more about you and the business that you're running there's a lot of people here to to talk to as

26:55

well for you as well Absol this has been a great um it's the second year we've been at fight laugh Feast it's great to

27:01

be with Brothers and Sisters in Christ period and then and then to tell the story and so it's uh uh on the web it's

27:11

www. Alps PMG so alpsp mg.com yep and my phone number is

27:18

easy too 251 377 2197 okay and I will text back or call back or whatever it is

27:26

but that's that's the best way to get in touch with it fantastic sir I hope a lot of people get in touch cuz I think people will hear what you just had to

27:31

say we want to be in that pot yes sir thank you will you're very kind thank you sir

27:41

for Pastor James White thanks for joining me on the podcast today good uh good to be here even though we're not in

Dr. James White

27:47

Arizona we're in uh today rainy uh rainy Texas so so okay about that you're

27:55

you're glad you're not flying anymore so so RV life is suiting you I listen to the dividing line you talk about the

28:00

Troubles of RV RV life and the challenges hey look you know you're you're dragging a house down

28:07

interstates that are not always overly wellmaintained Texas does a fairly decent job New Mexico not so much

28:14

Louisiana doesn't even try um Alabama does a great job interestingly enough it's very interesting how different each

28:20

one is but look that poor little house experiences like 20 earthquakes a day what would your house look like if it

28:25

had 20 earthquakes a day probably not well uh so so yeah you've got to repair stuff you've got to tighten up screws

28:31

and stuff braks and that's the way it is but it's my bed my pillow my clothes my

28:38

shower my food my my refrigerator uh and my portable

28:44

webcasting studio with two 4K cameras yeah ATM and starlink and 5G and

28:51

everything else in the back so yeah it's been a learning curve but when you all

28:57

are banned from because you won't stick poisonous stuff in your bodies you're all going to be coming to me going okay

29:03

how do we do this and I'm going to start my own webcast on uh how to attach U

29:09

sewer hoses without getting all sorts of stuff all over your hands and uh yeah there's little things you you learn yeah

29:15

definitely well I've been traveling I've been on the road this week and I can understand and definitely empathize with

29:21

a desire to have my own bed instead of an Airbnb bed or something like that I tell you at my age that's a that's a

29:28

Game Changer because uh I have I have arthritis kidney issues uh heart issues

29:35

all sorts stuff like that so having regularity is a is a is very very

29:40

important and not having to deal with TSA is a great blessing yes yeah I took a I took a bus actually I flew into

29:46

Houston to visit a friend and then took a a luxury bus down here from Houston to Dallas MH and that was so much nicer it

29:53

was a little bit more expensive than a flight but I didn't have to worry about about TSA or security or all of that

30:00

whole dance just get on the bus and work for 4 hours and but I I did the same I did the same drive from Spring which is

30:06

just North of Houston up here on Wednesday and uh it was it was my worst

30:12

heart day of the year I drove 4 hours in super ventricular tacac cardia oh so my

30:19

heart was in a completely unusual Rhythm over twice normal speed all the way driving from just north of Houston up

30:26

here to Dallas okay that wasn't fun no that doesn't that that doesn't sound fun didn't make it a fun trip so yeah there

30:33

are some things like that but most of the time you know as I not off to what I

30:38

really love is when it rains because the sound of the rain on the roof of an RV

30:44

and a little bit of rocking back and forth a little bit of wind and oh man talk about knocking you out it's it's

30:50

awesome it's great you're selling me on RV life kind of well depends on what happens in the

30:56

election as to whether there's going to be an RV industry in the future because well think about it oh environmental

31:02

standards not only environmental stuff but it's the fossil fuels you can't pull an RV with an electric vehicle no you

31:09

can't do much of anything I have I have a 6.6 L turbo diesel with a 10-speed Allison Transmission uh pulling that

31:16

sucker so uh yeah it we'll see what happens in the future we'll see what happens in the future I I'm self I've

31:23

said and I feel selfish saying this but I've selfishly said I hope for a c certain outcome in the uh in the

31:29

election not just for my grandchildren and my great-grandchildren um but so I can get another at least four years

31:35

worth of traveling in okay because if if Trump wins this will probably air after

31:40

all that I would imagine I don't know yeah most likely you know if if Trump wins I assume I'll get another four

31:47

years where I'll be able to afford afford Fuel and travel around if he doesn't I don't have any guarantees of

31:53

that that's true so is that selfish yeah I suppose but I really enjoy doing what

32:00

I'm doing I get into so many smaller churches sure uh you know when you when you do the flying

32:06

routine you know people have to come see you uh when I'm driving you know like um

32:12

on Sunday I'm going to speak at a little missions church for a friend of mine about 50 miles from here um I don't get

32:19

you don't get the chance to do that cuz see mine's have called a fifth wheel so I can I can detach from it and now I've

32:25

got a truck to go wherever I need to go okay so I'll be driving down to I think

32:30

it's called Grandbury or something here in in Texas old friend that he and I went to Seminary together I mean we've

32:37

been we've been friends for many many many years and I don't get to do that if

32:42

I'm flying you know I have to be renting vehicles and doing all sorts of stuff like that and rental car stuff was so

32:48

much fun too oh it's a blast those lines those lines at the airport to get a

32:53

rental vehicle and then you get into it you can't find anything you don't know where the turns signals are oh it's

32:59

believe me I did it for years and years and years so anyways no one cares about my uh well I'll take that back somebody

33:05

might be going you know that might be how I need to do things in the future so maybe that'll be helpful to them but

33:11

there are more important things to talk about well I like the idea just quickly I like the idea that you're able to stop

33:16

into these small churches along the way that you otherwise wouldn't be able to visit I you're coming up on 200 Public

33:23

debates now right you know what's horrible is I did a debate a week ago today and I I don't know how I'm going

33:31

to go back and fix this but I have forgotten which debate it was it was either one it was either 194 or 195 and

33:39

I'm not exactly certain which one and I just feel like my memory is going that I

33:44

can't keep track of stuff like that but yeah um that is another way that you can

33:49

get to do debates in certain areas like I'm supposed to I've been really struggling to schedule things 2025

33:56

because I just didn't know what the nation's state is going to be right and so I have scheduled a King James only

34:04

debate in Louisiana I think in April and so on the

34:11

way uh we have a uh email address uh Roadtrip aomin.org and if a church wants

34:19

to have me in sort of informally in the sense like I'm going to be driving by

34:24

I'm going to be staying near you it might be a Tuesday night I'm not going to be wearing a suit and tie um maybe

34:31

we'll just do something with the elders or something like that whatever they send in that contact information I have

34:36

this whole map with pins all over the United States amazing of churches that have said hey whatever day it is just

34:42

let us know we'll work something out and so if I honestly if I wanted to be doing

34:47

something almost every night while traveling I could I can't do that I'd be

34:53

exhausted but uh it has been so neat cuz Alpha Omega has been going for over 41

34:58

years now praise God and we've had a lot of impact over the years and now I get

35:04

to meet a lot of those people uh in these little churches I stopped at a little I spoke at a little church in

35:10

Montana and I'm talking little church no air conditioning okay yeah um and this

35:16

this woman comes up to me after I speak I'm soaked in sweat because they're having a heat wve there's no air

35:22

conditioning there just fans and I'm sitting on the front row with this lady and she says you need to understand my

35:28

son told me that I need to come hear you speak I I didn't know who you were but

35:33

my son told me he's in South America I think he was no no he's in he's in the South Pacific he had joined like a

35:41

cruise line he had gotten on a ship yeah and then he jumped ship and he was just

35:46

out there living the life in the South Pacific and somehow ran across Jeff

35:54

deran and I on YouTube and was converted in the South Pacific praise God and so

36:01

he he's talking to his mom and his mom tells him hey I've heard you know this this church this this guy named James

36:07

White you've got to go see him and tells him the whole story say here I am in Montana talking to the mom of a guy that

36:15

was converted through jeffan Ministry in South Pacific how does that even happen

36:22

I mean and she'd never get to go to like G3 or something something big like this

36:27

to sit around and tell me this stuff right so yeah I'm enjoying it so so this

36:32

experience you you meet all these people that you get to see firsthand the impact of your 40 Years of ministry 40 years

36:39

and sometimes it was a long long long time ago I mean uh the things that the Lord has done with stuff that we did

36:47

back when we had nothing and it could be very discouraging I mean you know my wife had to work fulltime sure until

36:53

just recently that's the only way that she and I had health insurance yeah all those years was that she was she worked

36:59

in the airline industry she didn't fly but she worked in reservation she worked in uh luggage when she went to work in

37:06

luggage I have to admit that was sort of cool you know why is that because you lose your luggage but I knew who to call

37:14

oh God I just I I just called the wife and she has access to there's this computerized thing that all the Airlines

37:21

use and and she's like I'm on it you know and she'll call me back to him okay

37:26

it'll be delivered such such such the place and she and when she first started doing that she was so excited to get to

37:31

do it and then she took a flight and she calls me and said well my luggage is missing I said well you know what to do

37:39

no no sympathy out of me you seem to enjoy when mine gets lost so yeah it was it was it was sort of fun to have that

37:45

kind of connection so anyway I'm sorry no I'm babbling on no that's okay like so we're talking about the the

37:51

opportunity to meet the people that you've impacted over your 40 Years of ministry and and that the apologia

37:58

channel has over 500,000 subscribers like there there are people POS possibly

38:04

likely hundreds or even thousands of people watching one of those videos right now yeah it's true sort of it's

38:09

sort of difficult to imagine to comprehend that you know 6 Seven 8 billion 8 billion people on the planet

38:15

yeah and then around the world what what is happening with your words right now when I when I I when I first uh visited

38:22

South Africa which I visited many times I miss those folks down there there great great Christians down there down

38:29

there very very hard to drive there um that nation's in in trouble it's it's really struggling um but when I first

38:35

visited I went to poest room South Africa and I just I think just did a debate with a Muslim there and this

38:43

homeschool family comes up to me and the dad's talking about you know how long

38:48

they've been listening to dividing line I'm on the other side of the planet I mean you don't get much more on the other side of the planet than Poes from

38:53

South Africa from Phoenix Arizona um and there's this teenage daughter standing

38:59

there and you know how teenage daughters are uh with this really dead pan look

39:04

she looks at me and she goes yeah I've grown up listening to your

39:11

voice I'm on the other side of the planet you know it's just like wow what a what a day we live in that we've had

39:17

this type of opportunity and and that's one of the things that a lot of us are so worried about with censorship and stuff like that is is to see that end

39:24

because it's it's been such a blessing but we've had the time still trying to

39:29

use the opportunity feel a little bit more pressure to make it work right now

39:34

because you realize man there are people that really want to shut that down they don't want us to be able to have this

39:40

type of Freedom uh so to talk about these topics to yeah to preach the gospel globally like this I mean uh

39:48

censorship is a is a real real you know Ai and stuff like that yeah

39:53

um got to got to got to pray about what the future is going to like so U anyway

39:59

yeah well what's so what's so interesting about that is for a long time podcasts were a very difficult

40:04

medium to sensor because it's it's recorded audio right but now all there are all these AI companies that produce

40:11

podcast transcripts you have to pay for it still it's not expensive but I think there's going to be potentially a push

40:18

to censor podcast now that they've all been now that you have the transcript so easily produced they can find what

40:24

you're talking about that's how YouTube does it they've been doing it for a while now yeah it's it's a little scary

40:31

uh it's neat to have that capacity and that ability but yeah it's it's a little

40:36

bit scary nothing nothing when when we first started podcasting we did it CU we were so poor I mean we are pioneers I

40:43

don't know if anyone the dividing line has been going for well we went we went digital in like

40:50

20002 2001 there wasn't even MP3 we were using something called real audio yes I

40:55

remember okay I mean that's how long ago it was and the only reason we did it was not because we had some prophetic Vision

41:01

that this is where everything was going to go the reason we did it is because we couldn't afford to pay the Saturday air

41:10

rates on a local terrestrial radio station sure and they had started doing real audio and what we realized was cuz

41:17

we were we were doing it but it was it was killing us all of our calls were coming from people listening to the real

41:23

audio stream amazing okay and so rich is like I'm going to look into and he found out you know we can we can do real audio

41:29

ourselves yeah the the internet had just started uh you know we had our website I think our first website

41:36

90 97 98 somewhere around there uh Tex

41:41

Texas 37. I think was was the URL back then or something like that and um so

41:48

rich is like I think we can do this and we're not spending $700 a month for a

41:53

radio station where obviously no one's listening to us on a Saturday anyways right so that's how the dividing line went

42:00

digital and you know we switched over to the MP3 stuff and something like that when it became available but yeah that's

42:08

why we started really early and I'm I'm looking right now at a guy standing over there um who approached me almost two

42:15

years ago now and said hey I want to help you guys make all of your dividing

42:21

lines debates sermons church history lectures everything you've done oh yeah available to be fully searched I

42:29

remember you announcing this in the past year that that's the guy right there standing about 30t away that did it for

42:36

us and so it's an advantage at the same time just imagine how

42:44

different anything I've basically said for a quarter

42:50

century is fully searchable to anybody who wants to find it sure um my friends

42:57

use that but my enemies do too of course um but no generation had before ours had

43:03

ever even dreamed yes of that kind of thing it's frightening um

43:09

so what's what are my what are my great grandchildren going to be facing I don't know I don't know it could be great it

43:16

could be cuz that can be used for good or evil sure of course it can be used for good or evil and the other stuff

43:22

that's going on now is like do you know the program speech ofi yes yes it will

43:28

read you do PDF documents web pages whatever um I can I have recorded my

43:36

voice uhhuh model of your voice the model of my voice yeah and it's amazing how easy it is for me to listen to a

43:42

book in my own voice a lot of people don't but I talk so much sure it's just

43:48

sort of second nature and now that I'm so old I'm wearing hearing aids now I hear myself even more right um but but I

43:55

I can listen to my my own voice and I remember when someone posted something on Twitter it was video of me and my

44:03

mouse moving but I'm saying things I've never heard me say before right and it was the

44:10

beginning of AI modeling of of voices yeah and I think I think applying God's

44:18

law is going to become more and more of an issue because by the mouth of two or

44:24

three Witnesses and it can't being a computer because the fact of matter is

44:30

you can do you could take what we're recording right now and if you have the proper software knowledge you could

44:36

change what I'm saying of course yeah it's it it all of us it it can happen to every one of us it could change the

44:42

question you ask I could get change my answer and the video version is not far

44:47

behind oh it's already it's already there well I know we see we see it in the in I remember when I saw a movie

44:55

called Alita battle angel have you ever seen that I've heard of it I haven't seen it I was sitting in a pizza shop

45:01

and I'm watching this and there the sound wasn't up and the lead character I'm going her eyes are way too big her

45:10

eyes are but she looks real I I was really freaked out about it and I went

45:16

home and and looked up what the movie was end up watching actually ended up loving the movie okay but the point is

45:24

she's completely CGI but but looked so incredibly real that

45:32

as they keep pushing that forward we will not as Christians we

45:38

will not be able to accept that kind of thing as witness as testimony correct because it can be it can be manufactured

45:45

and there's no way for you to know but people will get away with stuff exactly I have said this for for for years now

45:53

God's law will allow the guilty to get away because it's so

46:00

concerned about convicting the innocent and the reason for that and see in our

46:05

in our world we have to have Justice now because in the secular World there will

46:11

be no justice after death corre yes but in the biblical world we do the best we

46:16

can with Justice now yep and if that means guilty people get away with stuff

46:23

that they cuz look at look at the stuff in the Bible you know if if if if if a rape takes place and it's out in the out

46:30

in the wilderness and no one can hear the woman crying there's not enough witnesses to do anything about it and

46:36

you say well that's injust but the point is the biblical idea is they will they will be punished

46:43

that's right there's a day coming eternally so yeah it's only it's only temporary and it's more important that

46:50

you do not convict and execute an innocent person um than it is you catch

46:55

all the bad guys cuz the bad guys are going to get caught right but the bad guys aren't going to get caught anymore

47:01

and that's why you have this uh me too stuff that took place the stuff that happened with the Supreme Court guy you

47:08

know well yeah okay the statute of limitations expired 47 years ago but we're still going to go for it because

47:14

if we don't he might get away with something right because from their perspective once you're dead that's it

47:20

that's right and that's something a lot of Christians have not thought about that you know in Acts 17:31

47:27

uh God has ordained a day when he's going to judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has chosen and he has given evidence to All

47:34

by raising him from the dead mhm and and this is I know we're going all over the place I apologize uh it's

47:40

just fun we're on a road trip uh we're on a road trip that's right and there's all sorts of people walking around anyways that's right for years and years

47:47

and years I read Paul's sermon on Mars Hill as an apologist as a a Biblical

47:54

scholar the whole nine yards and I not until about 2021 that I actually hear

48:01

what act 1731 was saying because when I saw and he has given evidence to All by

48:07

raising him from the dead I'm thinking he's given evidence of the Resurrection he's given evidence to everybody Jesus

48:13

is the Messiah and I've proven it by raising him from the dead that's not what it's saying at all what it's saying

48:21

is he has given evidence to all that there will be a day of judgment and

48:27

Jesus is going to be the judge and I'm giving evidence of the day of judgment by raising the judge from the dead it's

48:34

not about the resurrection it's about the reality of judgment coming and that

48:40

is something that impacted common law and thought in Western countries up

48:49

until that which flushed it which is Darwin okay say say more about how

48:55

Darwin specific flush that idea you can Doug just talked about it a little bit for the stage

49:01

exactly and I did and and I think not sure it was last I think it was year before last somewhere around there I

49:07

actually spoke up at new St Andrews and I spoke on how Darwinism is Central to

49:13

the degradation of our society and when you think about what Darwin did up until

49:21

Darwin you just couldn't get rid of God because you have life yes once you you

49:26

have Darwin you can get rid of God and therefore you get rid of judgment yes you get rid of that Judgment Day coming

49:34

you get rid of the Transcendent meaning of human life you get you get rid of everything that stopped racism Darwin

49:41

was a horrible racist he was um the original subtitle of the Origin of Species right right exactly exactly so

49:49

that people don't realize what a radical shift that was that's right uh my you

49:56

know my grandkids struggle to to even have any idea of how it was that my My

50:03

Generation thought foundationally down at the bottom maybe not even at the

50:08

Consciousness level but we still had so much of that Christian morality day of

50:14

judgment uh idea down at the bottom and now we're looking at Generations that

50:20

have none of that that's right and chocolate Knox was just talking to me you know I said I I in many ways I feel

50:27

a disconnection with the younger generation and I think that's part of what it is is they haven't had that and

50:34

I did mhm and it's it's almost subliminal it's almost below the level

50:40

of thought it's presuppositional in in essence yes um and so it's really hard to address that kind of stuff and to go

50:48

hey this is where we're we're missing stuff this is why we're we're not communicating the way and and I feel

50:54

like I'm not able to communicate the wisdom that hopefully I've gathered over

50:59

seven decades in life um to the Next Generation sure because they're not

51:06

interpreting my words within that within that context and I I try and certainly

51:13

succeed with some people but other times it's it's beyond my capacity I have to

51:19

thankfully I've got people like uh Jeff Durban and others that are still a

51:24

little bit younger I'm I'm 16 years older than Jeff so uh and Luke loves to

51:31

I don't know if you ever heard Luke say when you were there that uh the reason I know so much about church history is cuz I was there I've heard them say that yes

51:38

yeah it's like thanks guys appreciate that appreciate that one of my one of my favorite things was the the the James

51:45

and Jeff Comedy Hour when you guys would pick at each other from the pit well and the the videos we did that that that one

51:51

video we did when when they were having the the online poll competition between

51:57

miss me the on online poll uh did you get that yes okay good cuz I I the first

52:02

President I ever got to vote for was Ronald Reagan so I'm proud of that um that was a great clip from him yeah yeah

52:08

it was um but but that that video that we did where like he was he was doing

52:14

the ninja thing and we were playing the little the fold up football thing together and and uh that was a lot of

52:21

fun to do that that was a lot of fun to do we had we had a lot of fun doing that kind of stuff I love those

52:27

guys um you know Luke and Zach don't get the name recognition that Jeff and I do

52:34

um but there's a a real rough situation going on right now and I I know Pastor

52:40

Zach has basically lived this past week holding stuff together I mean just

52:48

investing himself in such a difficult situation and I just I get to see that

52:53

kind of stuff a lot of other people don't but um the the the heart that

52:59

especially you know Zach and and Zach and Luke do a lot of this stuff cuz Jeff and I are gone a lot sure you know Jeff

53:05

end abortion now me was I'm the I'm the quote unquote lay Elder because I'm not full-time with I don't get paid by by

53:13

apologia I Alpha and Omega um but Jeff would say without alpan Omega there

53:19

would be no apologia right uh he's said that many many times so we are sort of joined at the hip but he has to travel

53:26

so much and I don't know if you're aware of the situation with his twin daughters now that he had adopted yeah that that I

53:33

mean were landed on them like the stor flew overhead and just dropped them in

53:39

yeah later late 20 about a year ago 2023 right and I mean they have special needs

53:44

they were incredibly preey drugs on the part of the parents I mean

53:51

so he has to not only do the end abortion now stuff but he's got Durban

53:56

family 2.0 yes he does uh augustin's I think not quite four yet I think getting

54:02

round four uh Augustine sorry um AP

54:08

apia the whole thing off and the girls I mean candy oh my goodness give that

54:14

woman sainthood right now um so Jeff and I are I'm getting older I'm slowing down

54:20

um so Luke and Luke and Zach God bless him I love these guys and I'm honored to

54:26

I'm honored to serve with him I really am you've seen quite an evolution in Jeff and in Zach and Luke and in the

54:34

church over your time there and I know that you guys have mutually influenced each other and I think that's one of the

54:39

things that comes across is the genuine bond that all of you have that wouldn't necessarily be obvious like the the the

54:47

bond of Brotherhood that you all share it's I could I could feel it and I had a great appreciation for it well you know

54:53

I taught I preached at apologia many many times before we went there I never expected to

54:59

be there and so I had that connection all along but uh I I

55:06

so years and years ago I know we're never getting to the topic this right but years and years ago um I was driving

55:13

in a car with Dr Norman gisler okay well well known it was right before he wrote

55:18

his book against Calvinism uh chosen but free yes and he made some comments to me he

55:26

said I'm 65 now so I can write my Systematic Theology and I sort of went

55:32

you have to be 6 oh yeah nobody nobody below 65 knows enough to write a systemat theologist and so what about

55:37

Wayne gam waste of paper waste of paper wow okay and it became clear to me that Dr geer's

55:46

view was he could not learn anything from anyone younger than himself oh and so I was much younger

55:54

than him at that time obviously and I looked at that and I I don't know that I ever said a specific prayer but I

56:02

I think I probably said something along the lines that Lord never let me never let me go there yeah and that's why I

56:08

love to learn from Jeff um and people would say well but he says he calls you his spiritual father I

56:15

mean he credits you for you know so the first the first Christian book he read after he's convert it was the King James

56:21

only God verion which I would not recommend to anyone as the first book to read as a as a Christian but how can you

56:26

learn from him you you can you can learn from those that are younger than you are and I'm I'm not saying that there are

56:33

times that I don't look at a 20-some guy who does does not have any experience in

56:39

life no experience in the pastor who comes along and you know pops off some comment on Twitter and just go you know

56:45

you roll your eyes and go yeah whatever um I do but I learn from Jeff because

56:50

Jeff has proven himself capable of learning himself yes and going in

56:58

depth on things that I haven't gone in depth on yes and I do worry about older guys like me who who yes in some

57:07

instances there's situations where I look at somebody and go you just haven't

57:12

been through what I've been through in this subject I've seen this happen 47 times before look out you're in trouble

57:18

they won't listen and then they end up getting in trouble yeah um I I okay I get that but when it's when it's

57:24

somebody uh who's really doing the work there's

57:30

just so much to learn these days yeah you know I mean there are topics that I I look I'm not the Bible answer man I'm

57:36

not going to pretend to be there are there are things that I will I will never know there are areas I'm like I'm

57:42

leaving that to you I'm not going to debate eschatology I'm leaving that to Jeff Jeff pretty pretty darn good at that he's fantastic I I'm not I'm not

57:48

even going there um but when it comes to cbgm I'm your I'm your guy you know cbgm

57:55

[Laughter] I didn't want to ask I had to ask oh you have to ask I have to ask

58:01

cbgm has okay that's yours you got an nasv yes it hasn't really impact impacted

58:09

that one if that was an ESV the ESV I've got a lsv over here

58:14

that is this actually is this actually the lsv is that perfected in my opinion

58:20

oh interesting okay okay cuz it it is the LSB is the nasb with edits so so

58:26

it's not a whole new translation okay okay so it is the nasb but with spe

58:31

specific changes and the fascinating thing is when I was using the nesv and and I was a critical consultant nsv

58:38

every change that I would make while reading the English is made in the lsv

58:43

so when you read the Old Testament you read Lord in all caps I would read that as Yahweh because that's t t grandon LSB

58:51

reads Yahweh doesn't say Lord it says Yahweh and Romans 95

58:57

somewhat Ambiguously translated in the nesb very clearly in the LSB okay etc

59:02

etc but the difference between these two that'll explain cbgm we're never to get to our topic but that's okay um Jude

59:11

5 in the nasb will read the Lord delivered a people out of Egypt

59:17

okay the LSB reads Jesus delivered a people out of

59:24

Egypt now think of the theological ramifications of saying Jesus delivered

59:31

the people out of Egypt that's a passage on the deity of Christ yes yes okay now

59:36

we've known for centuries and centuries and centuries Millennia that there were some

59:42

manuscripts that said Lord and some manuscripts that said Jesus so that that's not we didn't hide

59:49

that that's in the texal footnotes in the nessan Greek text it's something that's been known so why' they change it

59:55

cbgm coherence based genealogical method which was obviously named by a German

1:00:03

yes okay they I can almost hear it yes C genealogical method um and because it

1:00:10

was designed by a German um and so we knew computers would eventually be used

1:00:17

to help in textual critical study but we didn't know exactly how

1:00:22

Okay simplifying a lot of stuff because honestly there probably aren't 200

1:00:29

people in the United States that really understand cbgm and that includes all the new testment professors okay all

1:00:35

right so that's how new and you have to read really in-depth

1:00:41

stuff to do it I was doing a PhD program in South Africa it didn't end up being

1:00:46

able to be completed but that's where I I had to start working on cbgm um basically what it does

1:00:56

computers can see patterns in large bodies of data that

1:01:02

you and I can't sure large language models exactly so they can look at a they can so what

1:01:10

they do is they coate what they did is they collated pretty much all the manuscripts of Jude around the world

1:01:17

okay you put it into a computer database and the

1:01:23

computer is able to see where certain manuscripts are

1:01:28

related to other manuscripts in having the same readings at like 15 20 different variants I can

1:01:37

do that for two or three variants I can remember that this manuscript and that manuscript in these two or three major

1:01:42

places they agree yes but the computer can do it with all of them right and go

1:01:48

these have coherence they are related to one another and basically what cbgm does

1:01:54

is what it recognized at Jude 5 was that the manuscripts that said

1:02:02

Jesus their closest relatives also said Jesus so there was consistency in in

1:02:08

transcription okay but for many of the manuscripts that said Lord their closest

1:02:14

man their closest relatives said Jesus so there had been a there had been

1:02:20

a disruption because which is easier if you're reading the Old Testament you're

1:02:25

going to the Lord the Lord delivered out people out of Egypt is second nature yes Jesus delivered the people out of Egypt

1:02:31

is not second nature no that's does that really say that exactly exactly and so

1:02:36

what cbgm does is is it says there's more coherence for this reading than

1:02:43

there is for this read it's just another tool yes you you can you can reject it but it's a tool that you have to go well

1:02:48

why am I rejecting it I have I have to now argue against that it's a it's a massive database of information only 30

1:02:56

years ago we we basically had to say well you know there's only about 1% variation you know this scholar says

1:03:03

that this now we can pull the whole stinking thing up online and there's the database and it can tell you exactly

1:03:10

which ones related to what how how often they agree with one another it's there there are a lot of people

1:03:16

that are scared of it because it looks like a big black box it's going to tell you what the Bible actually said sure that yeah but it's not it's that's not

1:03:22

what it is at all um it is in instead in my opinion a a

1:03:29

tremendous step forward in being able to defend the text of of the New Testament okay it hasn't been done for the Old

1:03:35

Testament yet but it could be it's just it just takes a lot of money to enter

1:03:41

all that data and collate all the manuscripts and do all the rest of that kind of stuff so right now what they're

1:03:46

doing uh when I say they it's the the New Testament Center in Monster West

1:03:52

Germany well West Germany see how old I am moner Germany um they're the ones that print the the

1:03:59

United Bible Society text nean text which have been used for all the Bible translations for years they're putting

1:04:05

out what's called the ECM the adicio critico mayor it will be the most

1:04:11

massive scholarly Greek New Testament ever produced oh wow I just got word that my copy of Revelation just shipped

1:04:18

month and a half late um $700 just for Revelation is this a it's

1:04:25

a print thing in print four volumes over 4,000 Pages oh okay okay so and

1:04:32

Revelation has the wildest textual history of any book in the New Testament I don't doubt it well and you can

1:04:38

understand why it had to fight for age it had to fight for a position in the cannon because it's a little weird it's

1:04:44

a little weird okay you know thankfully the early church wasn't running around going we don't have enough books with 10- headed monsters there let's see if

1:04:50

we can find some more you know they doing that you know this is missing exactly so so we have the fewest

1:04:56

manuscripts of Revelation in any other book in the New Testament because of that and hence the variation is the

1:05:02

widest in Revelation uh like the book of Hebrews almost no textual variation at all in it

1:05:08

so it's very very different thing anyways so my ECM the ECM has been published for Mark acts the general

1:05:16

Epistles and Revelation okay so the rest of the gospels the Pauline Corpus

1:05:21

they're still working on that um and so yes the printed Edition will probably be

1:05:29

50 volumes of everything it'll take yeah shelves sure um but they're putting it

1:05:36

all in line they're not hiding anything yes and so open source sort of and the the neat thing is you can literally go

1:05:43

on their website you can go into an app that they've produced and you can go

1:05:48

into I'm sure revelation will come out here soon but Mark right now or AXS and you can change all the variables

1:05:57

in the programming so you can you can like CU they'll say well we're going to base our judgment on coherence based on

1:06:05

five five degrees of removal you can change that to two or change it to 10 or you can go the other

1:06:11

direction in other words you if once you learn how to use it you don't have to

1:06:17

agree with what some some Scholars are telling you to do with it you can vary it yourself and go what's the result

1:06:24

what's what what is it the the computer now going to say in regards to this variant so it's it's

1:06:30

not cuz I understand why people would not want a computer generated biblical text the computer told us is I I get

1:06:37

that that's not what it is uh it really is a massively positive thing for the

1:06:43

defense of the Christian faith but I can understand why a lot of folks are a little standoffish about it and part of

1:06:50

the reason is there might be a dozen Pastors in the US that actually understand cbgm and

1:06:57

could explain it um so it's going to take some work and I don't think Revelation is

1:07:03

going to do it but once I think John comes out because there's an important textual

1:07:08

variance of John John 1118 is it monogan Theos the unique godos the unique

1:07:14

son that's an that's important that's important um once once John comes out

1:07:21

and once Paul comes out Romans 51 um all sorts of textual variants in Paul that's

1:07:28

when I think the Press is finally going to pick it up and unfortunately the Press doesn't understand any of this stuff and so it's going to you know uh

1:07:36

but there's there's a number of us that are willing to step up and go okay no this is that's not what's happening this is really what's what's going on so

1:07:43

that's cbgm that makes sense um and it's um it has so so there's a difference

1:07:48

between this and difference between that and the whole difference is cbgm got it because what happened was they changed

1:07:54

the Ness from the Ness in 27th Edition that that was based on that's all in 28th Edition they changed the text

1:08:01

reading now if you looked at the one this was based on the NB NB the the

1:08:06

reading Jesus is at the bottom of the page in the textual apparatus it has been there for years and years and years

1:08:12

now Lord is in the apparatus and Jesus is in the text reading they're all still both there right you don't have to

1:08:18

accept that I I mean you know there are many times even when preaching there will be times I read the text apparatus

1:08:25

very easily and so there are times I will change the text reading if I feel that the this variant down here has has

1:08:32

a better case um so it's not like we're hiding anything or Ed we're changing the

1:08:37

Bible no we're dealing with what is in the text so the Nestle all in 28th Edition says Jesus and that's what the

1:08:43

LSB was based on okay okay so and the ESV their their um translation committee

1:08:51

still exists and so they making edits or revisions they will make they will make make changes every few years and when

1:08:58

the es when the nas Allen changed to Jesus the current ESV reads Jesus the

1:09:03

original ESV said Lord got it that's the reason there's there's always a reason it's not just their we want to change

1:09:09

the theology it's never that so um I'm not sure if you know but I I grew up in

1:09:14

a Jewish Family in Phoenix and I went to broy broy Jet broy oh that's pretty

1:09:20

strange yes Catholic Good Catholic School yeah but I I didn't learn

1:09:26

anything about the gospel well all that I remember from my education at broy was about textual criticism I remember yes

1:09:33

my sophomore year I took a class with a a Jesuit priest and I remember learning that um there were three Isaiah Isaiah 1

1:09:41

2 and three three different guys right you're rolling your eyes and then the other thing that I remember learning was that all that Mark wrote the first

1:09:47

gospel and the others were based on Mark right none of which is textual criticism oh okay I've have only heard it referred

1:09:53

to as that I understand but that that none of that is textual criticism that's the problem is textual criticism is

1:10:00

based upon they didn't call it that at the time either they just said this is just how the Bible works okay like form

1:10:06

criticism is the stuff with Isaiah dud Isaiah and all stuff because textual

1:10:12

criticism deals with manuscripts it deals with factual stuff okay and you don't have that kind of

1:10:21

stuff um we we are at fight laugh Feast so when oh when when Doug Wilson walks

1:10:26

by you you salute properly hey Doug good to see you we got we got to sit down for at least 5

1:10:32

minutes sometime today uh sadly okay all right um so uh text

1:10:40

criticism is a fact-based study you have to be able to demonstrate

1:10:45

the existence of manuscripts whereas when you're talking about form criticism you can you can theorize and say um I

1:10:54

think Isaiah through 39 was written during such a period of time and then

1:10:59

Isaiah 40 and following is written later because it names name it it names prophetic names and we know that people

1:11:05

don't know the future and therefore it had to have been written later okay and so you're you're doing form

1:11:12

criticism um but you're not having to worry about having manuscripts and the other stuff you're talking about in the

1:11:17

synoptic gospels is you know what's the synoptic problem who's related to whom

1:11:22

was Mark first and Matthew and and Luke edited him and John was just off on an

1:11:28

island someplace doing something weird um or are they all written separately from one another right um was Luke

1:11:35

written first was Matthew written first I mean that is a huge huge huge area of

1:11:40

conversation discussion but it's not based on manuscripts because the earliest

1:11:46

manuscript the earliest the best attested gospel that we have with ear

1:11:51

the earliest manuscripts is John oh wow okay and nobody says John was first okay

1:11:57

and yet we the earliest in fact probably the earliest papay fragment we have of

1:12:03

any new testament book is called p52 okay I've heard you speak about this before and p52 is from John 18: 31-34

1:12:11

should go to visit p52 in a museum or something no I've seen uh yeah I've seen

1:12:16

um a number p46 and stuff like that um

1:12:22

in various but p52 was over in Europe I didn't get a chance to see that one um but yeah so it's not based on

1:12:29

manuscripts that is a whole that the whole argument about meean priority or

1:12:34

Mark and priority or Lucan priority yeah that that comes not from manuscripts but

1:12:39

from Theory MH so I guess my question then would be so so um these were the

1:12:45

things that I was learning from the maybe to try and transition to the topic we're were going to talk about these are the things that I was learning from the

1:12:51

Roman Catholic Church from Jesuits in the in the '90s and so you're talking about this large language model

1:12:57

processing of scripture that's going to say oh this comes from this and this comes from this and it seems to me that

1:13:02

something that can actually be used to undermine solo scripture like well there all these flaws and now we can see them

1:13:08

in high resolution and so you need someone to interpret them for you so you don't end up interpreting these things

1:13:13

for yourself using using AI tools no no no um and and really the cbgm is not so

1:13:20

much an AI tool as it is a massive database that you're you're connecting

1:13:25

manuscripts to one another and allowing the computer to to do that oh so it's not it's not something you can send a query to and oh okay I okay okay got it

1:13:34

it's just a it's just a it it it illustrates connections but it's it doesn't have any quotequote intellig it

1:13:41

it can take two manuscripts and look at their agreements and disagreements at every single point and our minds can't

1:13:48

do that I see uh and and they can and that's why we're able to use it in that way that's

1:13:54

what CBG about but no I don't think it undercuts solar scriptura at all uh I

1:14:00

understand why people try to say that because they assume that solar scriptura means all you can ever talk about is the

1:14:05

Bible you only have to use biblical language you can't talk about computers you can't talk about CBG you can't talk about no that's not what solar scriptor

1:14:10

is about solos scriptor is simply affirming the unique nature of scripture

1:14:16

as being theonas um and that's why I found it somewhat interesting I've

1:14:22

done five five at least five Roman Catholic debates

1:14:27

this year this year two with Tren horn two with Trent horn two with Jimmy Aken and one with Tom rielo uh a week ago

1:14:35

today and um so what was interesting is something

1:14:42

that Trent had started doing in his debates on solo scura was questioning the meaning of

1:14:49

thean and saying it doesn't actually mean God breathe I heard him do that in one of the debates

1:14:55

yes and um Jimmy Aken didn't do that because

1:15:01

he knows he can't defend it and Trent didn't do it when he deaded me on it okay because he doesn't want to get into

1:15:07

the Greek um in that in that context so uh and I think some other people have

1:15:13

pointed out to him that it's grossly inconsistent for him as a Roman Catholic to take that perspective because Rome

1:15:19

has always accepted that uh every every Roman Catholic I debated Mitchell Paca

1:15:26

Pat Madrid none of them had disputed the meaning of theist at all so once they I

1:15:33

think he sort of tried it and got a lot of negative push back on that but the issue of solar scura is the nature of

1:15:39

scripture yes it's not the transmission of scripture over time because when you look at when Jesus is talking to the

1:15:47

Sadducees how does he refute their story of the woman with the the lever at law she has to marry the seven brothers and

1:15:54

they all die who she going to be married to in heaven you do he yeah you ER not knowing the script the power of God have

1:16:00

you not read what was have you not read what was spoken to you by God um that's

1:16:06

Jesus's view of what scripture is and he and he based his argument on the tense of the verb I am the god of Abraham the

1:16:14

god of not I was I am the god so Abraham still exists so Jesus believed that it

1:16:20

could be transmitted over time yes without falling apart and and being being corrupted and he believed it was

1:16:26

God speaking and he held men in his day accountable for what was written 1400 years earlier as if God spoken to them

1:16:32

MH so when when people challenge me on that I go you know what I just want to take Jesus's view of scripture I mean

1:16:39

seriously I did an entire sermon um we had to cancel Services about 2 months

1:16:46

ago at apologia and I mean we went through Co without ever closing yeah but

1:16:51

we had to cancel service one Sunday and I had to record a sermon in the studio and it was on Jesus's view of scripture

1:16:57

so you might find it interesting um the reason we did it is that they painted the floor in the gym yep so we would

1:17:04

have been heretical charismatics within 5 minutes you saying that like it's a bad thing oh I no I said heretical I

1:17:12

mean it was bad I mean the fumes were un unsurvivable um and so Co couldn't take

1:17:18

us down but paint Sherin Williams did sure yeah yeah yeah so but did it on

1:17:25

that because I think that's something every Christian needs to know needs to be convinced of is that I'm holding

1:17:32

Jesus's view of scripture got it you if you want to come up with something else fine but you didn't rise from the dead

1:17:38

so I think he's got the best position for for and and and it's not it's not impossible at all to determine what

1:17:45

Jesus's view of scripture was it's pretty straightforward it's pretty clear so um so I know you've got a ton of

1:17:50

people to talk to so we can we can talk about some of the other other issues later but just I think the then the last

1:17:55

question that I want to ask is so you've had such a distinguished career of advocating for the reformed Protestant

1:18:02

position of solar scriptura and so many other issues who do you see coming now

1:18:07

that can mount such a a a strong defense in an era that it seems like and again this is another topic where Rome is

1:18:14

resurgent or or Eastern Orthodoxy is resurgent who do you see coming following after you who can mount such a

1:18:21

defense in the Public Square in the ways that you have done over the past 40 years a lot a lot of folks ask me why

1:18:26

aren't you you know like doing special training of people and stuff like that and I and I'll be honest you have

1:18:33

to you have to be born with the ability to multitask sure to do

1:18:40

debating um when you're in a debate you are listening to the guy talking you're taking notes when you take notes you're

1:18:47

prioritizing you might have 10 points but I only have half the time he had that's right so I have to prioritize

1:18:53

them in order so doing that while still listening while taking notes um when

1:18:59

you're up there speaking you can't be distracted by time but you have to keep an eye on time I don't know how many of

1:19:05

my debates you've heard but most of my opponents dozens will will be halfway through a point

1:19:12

when they run out of time which the audience isn't impressed by that uh it

1:19:17

it it ruins the point he was making because now he's got to stop and he's going to come back later and address it it's too late it doesn't doesn't work

1:19:24

that way way I always finish on time I'm always finishing my point on time yes I grew up doing radio so the clock was

1:19:31

always on the wall I had to back time my music so UPI World News starts top of the hour you know this song has to stop

1:19:38

if it's halfway through people don't like this so I learned to do all that kind of stuff as a youth but you you

1:19:44

have to be wired to do that there there are Scholars so much smarter than I am that should never debate because they

1:19:51

look like idiots when they do they look like they don't know what they're talking about it's horrible uh but they

1:19:56

shouldn't but that's just it's just a skill so you know obviously I I look at people like

1:20:02

uh what are we clapping for I have no idea it's it's it's for him yeah it's

1:20:10

it's it's for it's for Harbor Freight Doug Wilson got stand Standing Ovation

1:20:15

Kei Keith vosy yeah Keith vosy yeah uh who who bought me a cheeseburger um

1:20:20

years and years ago he went to McDonald's for me and got me a pound of cheese and he will admit this hey Keith

1:20:28

Keith I want you I want you to show I want you to show my friend here what do

1:20:33

you look like when you're staring at a man who's eating a quarter pounder with cheese see could could I wish the

1:20:41

microphone could capture that look how much of how much of your quarter poow cheese

1:20:46

are you going to enjoy exactly Keith is is sitting in your hotel room watching you eat invited me in he to am what am I

1:20:53

going to do except the food that the door and kick him out I would have I would have been like look at that face

1:20:58

he said Entre Vu he looks which means enter yes I think German maybe doesn't he look like

1:21:06

he needs friends yes I'm desperate for friends this is all just to get friends that's all the whole Harbor Freight Doug

1:21:13

thing it's all I'm desperate want be my friend keios nice to meet you Spencer nice to meet you we're friends now thank

1:21:19

you how long have we known each other now 20 years okay I was at uh John

1:21:24

Dominic or I'm sorry uh John Shelby Spong okay that was what Florida 2005 I

1:21:31

don't remember it was around that same time that's when we met okay all right yeah somewhere and that was when I did

1:21:37

the cheeseburger thing did you tell what that means the cheese the cheeseburger thing yeah that that you bought him a you bought him a burger and you sat in

1:21:43

the hotel room I sidled up to him because I was yeah I was I was 25 years old he was who he is and I just

1:21:49

pretended like I knew him I just sort of stood there and got closer and closer and he and he happened to say you know

1:21:54

guys I'm hungry and I don't have a car and I said I have a car I will go get you food and I went

1:22:00

and got his food and he told me his hotel room you don't give a stranger your hotel room but he did and I ended

1:22:06

up at the hotel room watching him eat yeah and feeling awkward but not wanting to leave I don't know what to do in this

1:22:12

moment like I don't I don't I had the same moment with Doug a few minutes ago I was up there waiting because you know we both went on stage together right and

1:22:19

I'm standing there with him I'm like I want to say something yeah but I don't want to I don't know what to say

1:22:25

awkward silence is the worst so I said something stupid something stupid is better than

1:22:31

nothing at all in some Cas there's there's there's Keith fosy there you go that great special guest appearance by

1:22:36

special guest appearance by Keith fosy yeah I remember we were oh we were talking about oh what's the who's who's

1:22:42

coming up who's coming up special special yodes training on Deo yeah yeah I I'll be honest with you um that's some

1:22:50

the Lord the Lord has to call you to do that kind of work the skills related really do you know obviously I Jeff and

1:22:56

I work real well together we you know we've done a couple debates together D free debate Danny freze debate was was

1:23:02

classic uh my my son-in-law Eric jger is just sharp as attack and um I could see

1:23:10

him he's done one debate I could see him doing future debates that would be that would be really really good as well but

1:23:17

um you know I think we're I think we're going to be facing some challenging times and I'm I'm hoping there's a lot

1:23:22

of young men walking around here that um will uh will take up the take up the

1:23:29

challenge take up the manal I think the thing that's most striking about your debate style is that you don't resort to

1:23:35

like personal comments you keep it completely above try to this last debate was a little bit tough because he was

1:23:40

doing it but uh but yeah once you once you go there the debate's over you've lost you've lost the subject absolutely

1:23:47

so that's a problem so just one question about your Trent horn debate and we can cut this out if right so in the first

1:23:52

Trent horn debate you did about Sol scriptura he leaned in and said do you think I'm a Christian right and I felt

1:24:00

listening to that that was so far over the line and unnecessary that I actually lost a lot of respect for Trent horn cuz

1:24:07

I I didn't feel that that was within it's nothing new okay nothing new no that's that's standard that's that's a

1:24:13

way of getting some emotional stuff uh on your side okay um so it was what I

1:24:18

thought it was yeah it was and and a similar thing had happened at Boston

1:24:23

College back in 1993 about praying together and that was after the debate

1:24:30

so the issues were already out there okay and so I was like look we' we've made it clear that that we don't believe

1:24:36

in the same gospel here so I'm I'm uncomfortable with this and stuff like that so no it's That's Not Unusual at

1:24:41

all and I I knew what he was doing but I that's not the first time I've debated

1:24:47

Trent I did learn something though when we were talking and that is that

1:24:52

um my debate with him at G3 was his first public debate oh wow yeah yeah

1:24:59

he's a sharp guy he really is um but what's really interesting is watching

1:25:04

the uh Divergence of Roman Catholic apologetics under Francis oh yes because

1:25:12

they have to spend so much time Pope splaining yes they do and that's I I feel for them but I would you know my my

1:25:20

word to them is you you took the wrong turn back there when the APAC to begin

1:25:25

with come on back and everything will be fine so you know but it is interesting

1:25:30

that that um when I first started doing debates with Roman Catholics I was still such a

1:25:37

fundamentalist that I would have struggled to be overly nice personally

1:25:44

to them because I would felt it was compromise oh but I don't have that issue any longer and I can sit and talk

1:25:51

with Trent we don't compromise anything sure you know uh I've actually contacted

1:25:57

other Roman Catholic apologists from my past and said you know if I ever said anything in the past it was just

1:26:03

ridiculously um inyour face type of a thing I I apologize and I I don't want

1:26:08

to I don't want to do that kind of thing and his response was same thing that's so gracious and so we we'll we'll have

1:26:15

interesting conversations about what's going on in the world but then we'll always end up parting company at the end

1:26:21

because you get to the end it's like and so we need to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary to to solve this and it's

1:26:27

like maybe not yeah yeah it's it is it's heartbreaking it really is heartbreaking

1:26:32

to me I I I I I I guess that would be the one thing I would say is how have you changed over the years is is I'm

1:26:40

much more I I do want to see the person I'm talking to come to know the truth

1:26:47

yeah there are some situations if the if the person's an apostate if the person once knew so when I debated John

1:26:54

dominant cross and I was like a I was like a alien to him he he had he had spent the entire

1:27:01

decade of the 60s studying the gospels in a Cell as a monk you know I mean a Reformed Baptist I'm I'm like an alien

1:27:07

from another planet to him okay um and he was just the nicest as he I said

1:27:14

you're the nicest heretic I've ever met and and he he bought he he he embraced that he thought that was a pretty cool

1:27:19

cool statement um but at the same time there was a guy that we debated on that

1:27:26

cruise um who had been Evangelical and now denied the resurrection denied

1:27:33

everything and I just can't have the same relationship there of course biblically biblically John Nam mcon has

1:27:39

never known what I believe right so I can reach out to him and and you know

1:27:45

you're not talking about someone who knew and denied uh but sometimes you this last I did with someone who did

1:27:51

know graduate of Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte he's heard the truth and now he's chosen to deny it and

1:27:56

that that means I'm not going to be eating at water a Burg uh and just having a having a cheeseburger right um

1:28:04

but for you know like my Muslim opponents they just don't know what to do with me because I I I'll have dinner

1:28:10

with them and I'll show him love and I can I'm concerned for them I remember talking to this one guy how how old are

1:28:15

you I'm 31 you married no why not and he's like yeah and and and I I

1:28:22

just did the father thing the father I I care for you you you need to get married

1:28:27

he did you know but they don't know what to do with me because I understand Islam I don't compromise I hold to my

1:28:34

perspective and I care for them you know what the sad thing is they meet so many so few Christians they care for them

1:28:41

that's right don't get me don't get me going on that one I've got a whole sermon on that one besides that we've gone for about an hour an hour well

1:28:48

praise God sir there's much more for us to talk about we started out talking about the blessings that your work has had on many around the world I'm one of

1:28:54

those listening to your debates listening to your dividing lines it blesses my faith and I I think about the

1:29:00

things that I've learned from you every single day when I talk to Roman Catholics or when I interact with Muslims on my on my Twitter timeline so

1:29:06

your your work continues to bless me I'm one of those people so thank you sir thank you for it was a very enjoyable conversation we'll have to do it again

1:29:12

sometime absolutely thanks thanks