0:00

if I'm going to make a painting I want it to feel like a painting what does what does painting do well that nothing

0:05

else can do and it would be um you know cobbling together sloppy abstract shapes

0:12

that if you took them apart wouldn't make any sense but you put them all together you soften an edge here you

0:18

harden an edge here you get the color harmonies just right um it all of a sudden pops into this representation of

0:26

a memory [Music]

0:37

hello my name is Will Spencer and welcome to the will Spencer podcast this is a weekly Show featuring in-depth

0:43

conversations with authors leaders and influencers who help us understand our changing World new episodes release

0:50

every Friday my guest this week is Forest Dickerson and he's a husband father fine artist and the author and

0:57

illustrator of the new children's book crisen r any Day released on Canon press you may have seen it hanging around in

1:03

the background of Doug Wilson's recent videos now I haven't been blessed with kids just yet so I don't read many

1:09

children's books but this has to be one of the finest I've come across both in picture and in story it tells the tale

1:16

of a boy and his sister on the aforementioned rainy day who then go on a swashbuckling adventure with pirate

1:23

frogs wherein the children's unique gifts shine now I don't want to spoil it but the fact that there's even a spoil

1:30

plot point in a children's book says enough not only did Forest write the story which we'll discuss but he also

1:37

Illustrated it beautifully if you're a parent I think your kids will love it and if you're looking for some wholesome

1:43

Christian entertainment for Christmas this makes a great gift for any young family the book is the result of

1:49

forest's Life devoted to the visual arts painting drawing and more it's the

1:54

latest achievement of someone who to me exemplifies recognizing cultivating and

1:59

sharing one's gifts for God's glory and I hope Forest Story inspires you to recognize your own gifts and those of

2:06

your children sparking the next generation of Christian artists to make Christianity beautiful again if you

2:13

enjoy this podcast thank you please like this video share it and subscribe and when you do click the Bell icon to be

2:20

notified when I release new content and don't forget to leave a comment down below letting us know what you thought

2:27

you can also support my work through a paid subtit subscription or buy me a coffee and links to those are in the

2:33

show notes and please welcome this week's guest on the podcast the author and illustrator of Crispen rainy day on

2:40

Canon press Forest Dickerson Forest thanks so much for

Forrest Dickison

2:46

joining me on the podcast today you bet well thanks for having me I've got your your book here Crispen

2:53

rainy day um I don't read a lot of kids books but I actually I genuinely love

2:59

this one this was heartwarming it was exciting it was beautifully drawn and uh

3:04

the messaging in it was just was really was really touching so I just wanted to congratulate you on this not that I'm a

3:10

conour of the of the of the art but um this was an excellent book thank you sir I appreciate it so uh I wanted to get

3:18

started I've also as I mentioned uh to you I'd also seen your paintings in the gallery in Moscow so I've been looking

3:24

forward to having this conversation because the the visual arts are not one of my skill sets I do enjoy travel

3:29

photography but painting and drawing and things like this are Beyond me so I've been looking forward to talking with you

3:34

about uh your art and the process of getting to where you've been and also the books that you've created great let's do it all right so

3:42

um maybe we can just start at the beginning um when did you when did you

3:48

begin drawing painting what was the beginning of that what did that look like for you and I guess also how was it

3:54

nurtured to the point where like hey I can actually maybe do something with this yeah so I I don't remember a time

4:02

when I wasn't drawing um I think every kid begins their life

4:09

drawing I was just one of those that didn't stop so um my friends classmates

4:15

like they kind of petered out you know in early grade school and I was the kid

4:21

that wanted to stay in from recess and draw skateboarders snowboarders monsters

4:27

anything that you know piqu my interest at the time time um so I'd always been

4:34

doing it um I loved Calvin and Hobs tinon asteris um I loved you know old Disney

4:42

Animation handdrawn animation um my mom did a good job of

4:47

hanging some nice prints on our walls growing up so we had Old Masters John

4:53

singor Sergeant um sorya uh Winslow Homer you know we had

4:58

some pretty good on the wall so she had great taste um so I was always surrounded by stories and pictures and

5:06

then um later in high school was when I uh realized that I was probably not

5:16

going to be able to do anything else with my life um praise God I love it so

5:21

there was only one option I I nothing else really interested me um I thought maybe a marine biologist could be

5:28

interesting but I didn't I just thought manatees were cool and there that was a phase I had a manate phase um and they

5:34

have them maybe I'll do that someday um yeah so I I went to the I graduated from

5:41

logos and then went to the University of Idaho which is the local University here in Moscow um and jumped in with their at

5:49

their fine art program they the program was kind of in between uh professors at the time so

5:56

there weren't um dedicated drawing or painting professors there while I was uh

6:01

attending so I got um a lot of instruction from the internet books and

6:07

was given a lot of free time to just pursue it on my own so um and then yeah

6:13

I think it was my junior year I started working with Canon press um on in

6:20

college in college yes yes um I I think the first project we did together was

6:26

the riot and the dance biology textbook that Dr Jord Wilson wrote um it has

6:33

since ballooned into a whole nature doc series um that you can find on Canon

6:40

plus vid angel I think has it as well but I'm not sure um so it started as a

6:45

biology textbook so I was illustrating Beatles um things whose names I cannot

6:53

remember right and then um from there it was I started working with um Nate

6:59

Wilson pretty early on as well we started doing I started helping him out with some uh pitch decks for some of his

7:06

novels for um film um

7:12

pitches and um and then we started working on hello ninja the board book and that was

7:19

2013 I think we started that came out in 2014

7:26

um yeah and then that that was that was kind of how my career started was biology textbooks hello ninja and then

7:34

Canon press is um they produce curriculum books all kinds of different

7:39

books trade books um a few novels things like that so I was I was immediately

7:44

stretched into all kinds of different artistic categories um right off the bat

7:51

which I'm very grateful for so yeah that's a introduction I'm glad I'm glad you said

Cross the line

7:57

that because you know I'm looking at the at the crispens Rainy Day art style um

8:02

it's got a little bit of the um as that Howl's Moving Castle Miyazaki kind of

8:08

kind of feeling to it at least in the eyes but as I looked at this book and and looked at the looked at the drawings

8:14

looked at the art and then I compared it with what I saw at the gallery there was one particular painting of yours it had

8:21

sort of like a it sort of had a magenta Sky you probably know the one that I'm thinking of looking out over an idyllic

8:27

landscape and and something about that Sunset really caught me but there's um there couldn't be a bigger difference at

8:33

least to me there couldn't be a bigger difference between the what you painted in that painting and the art style of

8:39

this textbook and I think it makes sense that you would have done so much different stuff and that's how you would

8:44

be able to cross the line so many different so many different lines in in Visual Arts to different

8:50

styles yeah that's that's interesting to hear you say that because um I don't

8:56

think about it too much I just think in terms of genre I'm trying to make a nice painting that will be you know it'll

9:03

it's a composition that can stand on its own there's no characters in it so it's just a landscape painting um but I'm

9:10

using a lot of the same muscles um to illustrate a page of a picture book um

9:16

there's so and that um started out as a u i guess a

9:26

curiosity for any any kind of image making I was interested in so um whether

9:32

it was cartoons um like I said animation um print making board game art video

9:40

game art um biology textbooks I just anything that was interesting to me I chased

9:46

it um which has um been really helpful and one one reason I did

9:54

that because I I just needed money so anything anybody who was willing to pay I said yeah let's do it sure um but what

10:01

that gave me was kind of an ability an ability to jump between mediums or genres um without too much trouble

10:11

so yeah so um when you when you started out as a as a kid I guess you were

Water Colors Acrylics

10:17

probably drawing in like School notebooks with a pen or a pencil or something like that or did you just jump right into water colors or acrylics like

10:24

how did how did that take take shape and and and also as I look at krispen rainy day like what was this done in was this

10:31

was this digital was this illustrator or um or was it handrawn or may some combination it it was a combination um

10:38

all the colors are uh the colors are digital um but I made a effort to make

10:45

them look as traditional as possible um the line work is all traditional so it's

10:52

it's dip pen and uh dip pen and ink on Bristol board so I I I pened and ined

11:00

traditionally and then colored it digitally I was going to color it traditionally but we were running out of

11:06

time and I had to get it done so um and then what was the other part of

11:12

that question so was there was there a medium that was interesting to you off the bat or was it just you know right

Mediums

11:18

into whatever you could get into your hand yeah no right off the bat there was no medium that caught my interest um it

11:26

it was just drawing so it was pencil and paper and then color just was a way to

11:33

enhance what I was already drawing so um colored pencils when I was younger and

11:38

then um logos school does a great job of giving art instruction to its students

11:47

um that I found out is rare and not something that's done in most schools

11:53

across the country so when I I have friends I told them I I spent my um

12:00

I had uh instructors during Elementary School that taught me you know they would draw a a sunflower and then I

12:07

would have to copy the sunflower um all my art friends were blown away because they never had any kind of um

12:14

instruction like that from their Public Schools um so I'm grateful to logos for

12:20

giving me art lessons that I definitely did not appreciate at the time um I

12:25

thought they were boring but um it was a good foundation for what I would eventually do so it was it was all just

12:31

pencil pen and ink and then um I loved animation but that was

12:38

um handdrawn animation was an art form that was kind of on the way out when I was just getting old enough to um enter

12:46

the workforce so I kind of set that aside and went and pursued um oil

12:53

painting that was what I chased in college um

12:59

I um it was a good way to combine my interest my um interest for being

13:07

outside taking hikes going on trips um with image making so I was able to go

13:13

outside and paint and respond to the landscape and the light directly which

13:21

was something that I found compelling so um it was yeah pencil paper and then oil

13:27

paint and those have been my two go to mediums for a while

13:33

now can you um so again I'm not a visual artist like I I like landscape

Landscape Painting

13:39

photography and travel photography can you talk a little bit um about the process of painting a landscape in the

13:46

landscape this is one of like maybe some at some point in my life I will I will pursue that maybe I will I will chase

13:52

that because that's something that I think speaks to me so maybe you can talk a little bit about how you got into that

13:58

what the process has been like learning that what your process is for for doing a painting like that as well that would bless me quite a bit yeah um it's it's

14:06

thrilling I I remember the first time I went out I had I had bought these water soluble oil paints which you think about

14:13

it makes no sense at all because water and oil don't mix but somehow they were

14:18

able to take these paints introduce a molecule or remove a molecule that ruined it and became became water

14:25

soluble um and I went out with some friends it was freezing cold um I grabbed water

14:32

from a creek to mix my paints and uh I made a atrocious little painting of some

14:37

birch trees but uh it was it was thrilling because it felt like hunting I

14:44

was out there in the wild um ready to kill something you know it felt

14:49

Primal um it was challenging you have 360 degrees of view around your easel

14:58

you have temperature you have sound you have wind all these different factors

15:04

that are just bombarding your senses and you have to um pick one little thing out

15:10

of that cacophony of sensation and scrape it onto a little canvas with some

15:16

colored dirt and then you know make it convincing so that you can take that

15:23

experience that you had in the wild um put it onto a little piece of vegetable

15:29

got stretched over some canvas and then give it to somebody else and if it's done well they're they can experience

15:36

what you did um almost as um effectively which I

15:43

think is fascinating so I enjoy the process of hunting um it's challenging

15:49

you can and it's it's clear whether you succeed or fail there's um uh there's not a lot of wishy-washy

15:56

gray area you either make a nice painting or you don't um and then I enjoy being able to kind of bottle that

16:05

um sensation or experience and frame it nicely give it to somebody else so that

16:10

they can then enjoy it as well so when you take when you take the canvas out

16:17

there in Into the Wild do you finish it all at once is that is that the goal

16:22

like I've got x amount of time to finish it before the sun sets or a storm rolls in or can you actually can you can you

16:28

bring it back back and try again or or or add to it um yeah both it's it's nice

16:34

to finish an OM the spotter as they're called but um that rarely happens

16:40

usually you only have um an hour or two before the light changes your subject

16:46

matters completely different um so you have to be quick um and then once once

16:51

you've got that impression down you can take it back to the studio and um I'll I'll generally just most of my PL this

16:59

is what it's called when you paint PL a it's um the open air when you're painting PL a um I generally just make

17:07

studies and then bring it back to the studio for larger pieces or I'll fix it up in the studio um it's it's

17:13

challenging to get something finished out there in the field okay that's that makes sense

Unfinished Sketches

17:19

because I was imagining well you only have X amount of time just with the light being the way it is and the care

17:25

and the thought and the attention the detail that goes into a beautiful piece maybe it'll come together in the course

17:30

of a couple hours but it it didn't seem likely to me that lightning would strike that often yeah yeah no it doesn't and

17:37

there is something Charming about a a a a sketch so I do like an unfinished

17:42

sketch there's a lot of energy if it's done well um if it's not entirely finished then there's more for the

17:48

viewer's imagination to do when it's um looking at that particular painting so

17:54

they can finish it on their end and then it becomes a little more sticky in their own mind I think so there's a charm to

18:00

an unfinished sketch but generally um it's a good idea to finish

18:06

things oh okay so so you mean so you will do like a pencil sketch of the landscape and then you could someone

Pencil Sketch

18:12

could look at that and then their mind could fill in the details the colors versus a finished a finished painting

18:19

which leaves less room for the imagination um yes a pencil sketch or a color sketch so a really a quick little

18:26

color scribble um either way a color scribble well so okay I'm I'm glad we're

18:33

talking about this because I'm thinking about the Art Exhibit that was in in Moscow during during Grace agenda and I

18:39

one of the things I noticed again this is this is coming from someone who doesn't have a fine arts background I

18:44

don't have enough language I know what I see I know what I like and I can look critically at things as opposed to like

18:49

that's cool and just walk away so I noticed that there was a difference between some of the paintings you had done um which I guess I would call them

18:56

more impressionistic and some of the more hyper realistic hyper detailed kind

19:01

of approaches which had a different kind of appeal I wonder if you can talk through the differences between those

19:07

because I imagine it's like a six of one half dozen another of of the other an artist's approach someone's personal

19:13

taste but maybe you can talk about like the selection of styles in that regard yes so yeah Personal Taste has a lot to

19:20

do with it but um I've and I've been through a lot of different styles on my fine art um

19:29

Journey so and but I've recently landed in in I guess what you'd call more of an impressionistic Camp because when I'm

19:37

painting what interests me is um the soul of a place or the the overall

19:43

impression of a landscape um it's I want my goal is to um frame a window that is

19:53

sort of a well I know an entrance into another world so I'm not looking I'm not

19:59

that interested in detail I'm not interested in

20:04

um subject matter as much as Del light so the subject matter obviously matters

20:12

but um I'm I'm looking for that broad impression color Harmony um something

20:17

that feels more like the place than looks just like a representational photograph of the place um the the

20:25

strength of an impressionist painting if it's done well um is what we talked

20:30

about earlier where you have something that is not entirely finished and so

20:36

when somebody looks at it um and it's you know there's a brushstroke every other inch or something but then you

20:42

step back and it all kind of coheres into this um unified piece of

20:49

art um that is the viewers mind finishing the painting kind of um with

20:56

the artist and so instead of instead of me just giving the viewer everything you

21:02

know here's everything down to the little hairs that doesn't it's not as much of a

21:08

poetic take on the landscape it's more just a onetoone representation which can

21:14

be um impressive but it doesn't scratch the

21:20

itch um that I'm trying to scratch which is um a broad impression of a place um

21:27

that is delivered straight to your soul you know trying to bypass all the information

21:34

tree grass clouds and just give you the the impression of what it felt like to

21:40

be there which is um I think that style simpler design

21:46

broader brush Strokes um color harmonies that are not exactly the same as what

21:52

you'd see in nature um it actually does a better job of feeling like a place

21:57

than a photograph would um yeah so I'm I'm trying to get the

22:03

most out of a painting when I do it um and uh that impression impressionistic

22:10

style I think is um it lends itself well to that more poetic take on the

Painting Feels Like Painting

22:18

landscape when you say you're trying to get the most out of out of it what what exactly do you mean by that like the the

22:24

most evocative feeling the most the viewer feels the most engrossed in it or

22:30

you have effectively communicated what it felt like to be there maybe all of the above um yes but making the most of

22:36

the medium so if I'm going to make a painting I want it to feel like a painting what does what does painting do

22:42

well that nothing else can do and it would be um you know cobbling together

22:48

sloppy abstract shapes that if you took them apart wouldn't make any sense but you put them all together you soften an

22:54

edge here you harden an edge here you get the color Harmony is just right um

23:00

it all of a sudden pops into this representation of a memory umh so that's

23:07

that's what painting does that nothing else really can do so if with krispin's rainy day I needed something a little

23:13

more specific something that lended itself to gesture and expression and characterization so that's I'm I'm grab

23:21

the pen so that I could get really detailed Expressions out of the characters I couldn't get I mean you

23:27

could I could have painted the whole thing but it would have taken forever right and it and um the Expressions

23:35

wouldn't be as iconic so by by making them by turning these characters into

23:41

lines you're sort of boiling them down to their simplest form so that they can be delivered quickly and effectively

23:48

almost like um I don't know emojis that's MH yeah so when I'm painting I

23:56

don't want to be making Comics I don't want to be making a photograph I want to be making a painting feel as much like a

24:03

painting as possible so that it can be just what it is so I'm as you say that I've got the

Iconic

24:11

book I've got chisen rainy day here I want to hold something up to the camera for those who are watching so I guess I

24:18

guess you use the word iconic and so this is the I don't know spoiler I guess but um you know where where he finds the

24:24

the lightning sword I guess I've never this language is great because it's helping me interpret linguistically

24:30

things I've only seen visually So when you say iconic obviously like this image of uh of crisen with a sword like I look

24:38

at this and I immediately know what's happening right there's no there's not really a whole lot of room for ambiguity it's there it's clear the lines are

24:45

sharp the action is communicated versus if you were to try and do this in a painting there would be a lot more

24:51

interpretive work on the viewers and like what am I actually looking at what is what is the meaning of being Crispen

24:57

like it's it it it moves less I suppose right and it you know it depends

25:02

if I had painted it photorealistically or if I had painted it with a high degree of detail it could have done

25:07

something similar but the goal here in that image in every image in this book

25:13

is the goal is to deliver the story effectively and so tying it all down by

25:19

means of black and white line work is um but I thought was an effective way to do

25:26

that so maybe we can talk a little bit about how that how that came together this I think this makes a little bit

Creating a Childrens Book

25:32

more sense how something like this would happen maybe beginning with a story outline maybe in the form of text and

25:38

then breaking it into a storyboard kind of form and settling on that but maybe you can walk people through like what

25:43

does it take to produce a a children's book because I can look at this and I can say this is deceptively simple you

25:50

know it's it's a you know it's a it's a 5 10 15 minute experience you know you're meant to be read probably

25:56

multiple times do it again like that but like but it's not going to take 3 hours to go through the book and that's only

26:04

possible because of probably many hours on the front end to make that process that reading process so

26:11

simple yeah I I wanted to make the highest quality peanut butter and jelly sandwich that I could I know it's going

26:17

to take seconds to consume or minutes um but I know from personal experience the

26:25

books that I loved growing up those little those few minutes where your parents are reading to or you're reading

26:31

by yourself can have um outsized impact down impact down the line so yeah with

26:39

this book in particular I started with an image of a boy jumping through a puddle that was what I wanted um I

26:46

didn't have any idea what was in the puddle I didn't there wasn't um Rose The Sibling the little sister was not around

26:52

at that point I just liked the idea of a backyard Adventure a puddle is something that everybody can relate to we've all

26:58

seen one we've probably all jumped in one there it is um so I thought that's a great little

27:05

entrance to a world that every anyone can access in their backyard so I started there and then also and then the

27:12

next thing that came was the color palette I had this very specific idea in mind for this pop of yellow the yellow

27:19

rain jacket against Grays and greens and blues of a kind of a rainy day mhm um so

27:27

I had the color p I had the boy jumping through a puddle and then from there it was I was bouncing between images and

27:33

text so I would sketch some ideas and then write some words that would maybe

27:38

that could go with those images and it was really just a lot of trial and error I would take One Direction until I was

27:46

bored or confused and then I would back up to where I was still interested and then take that and run with it and

27:55

um that was kind of the the process anytime I any time I got bored I scrapped it went back to where I still

28:01

liked it and then kept running from there so the story really took shape

28:08

once um I think once I decided that he was going to jump through the puddle and

28:14

fall into an ocean and meet up with a crew of his own you know his own crew of pirate frogs that made me happy so I ran

28:22

with that happy yeah it was there's nothing wrong with that so um

28:28

yeah I I remember the feeling very vividly of of him the the the wish fulfillment for a kid of having your own

28:35

crew of pirate frogs just waiting to do your bidding seemed uh like it was a

28:40

worthwhile Endeavor and then um because there needed to be a story and not just

28:46

a boy and his pirate frogs doing whatever they wanted I introduced the um

28:52

Rose the his sister and so then the story became more about it became about their relationship how does a brother

28:59

how do a brother and a sister work together um in this world that's

29:06

Fantastical and a whole lot of fun and um uh and very

29:15

rainy so so so the story was your original creation

A Womans Participation in a Hero Story

29:21

yes that's that's beautiful that that I was that I didn't expect um I I I read

29:27

through this and and and I thought it was so moving because how how do you in our modern context how do you portray a

29:34

a woman's participation or little girl's participation in a hero story in a way

29:39

that you know doesn't make her into the you know Ray Skywalker boss babe but

29:44

that also doesn't relegate her to a second class character and you struck

29:50

that B that I will not spoil but you struck that you struck that balance beautifully I thought thank you yeah I'm

29:58

I'm glad to hear that you are picking up on that cuz that was that was what I set

30:03

out to do once once the sister came along is when I got really excited because I knew that um it could be done

30:09

it's been done before how do you have um a a female character

30:16

who's strong in a uniquely feminine way how do you have a a boy character who's

30:22

strong in a uniquely masculine way such that they do um work together and it

30:28

Ates both of them in their particular station it's just there you know it's too easy to take them out most most most

30:36

mostly what happens is you have a girl character that's turned into a second rate boy character just because um and

30:44

you know it's then it's miniature Wonder Woman or like you said uh Ray Skywalker whatever um or you just have

30:51

to make the girl character actually heroic but then put down the boy that

30:58

he's a loser and guilty for existing um and I wanted to figure out a way um to

31:06

have both of those things in Harmony in one story so well again I I don't want to spoil it

Who is this book for

31:13

for the listeners because I want everyone to go and buy this book for their kids but what was the uh and maybe even for themselves or for I mean

31:19

Christmas is coming up so you can buy it for family members with young children too what is this book is what for like five to 10 year olds what's what a rough

31:26

rough age range yeah I I I wrote it for my girls and they're ages six to two I a

31:34

six-year-old a four-year-old the two-year-old and two-year-old um but yeah this is probably bad to admit but

31:42

age never factored into what I was thinking along the way I just was fine

31:47

six-year-old in general um but something that the parents would parents needed to like it as well because they're the ones

31:53

reading it to the kids so so as you were so as you were writing

Balancing the siblings

31:59

the story like what resources did you turn to to try and find how to strike that balance between the siblings where

32:06

the the little girl could have a a very valuable role in the story without without stepping on the boy's role in

32:11

the story and vice versa um let's see well honestly it was a lot

32:18

of um Miyazaki he actually he's one of the few creators that really gets

32:24

feminine strength I think um it was important that Rose in this story not

32:32

have a character Arc so all the angst and frustration is on crisen side he's

32:38

the one that is desperate to find this lightning blade um and loses it at his little sister because he's he's just

32:45

he's frustrated rose on the other hand um she says what she wants on the first

32:52

page and by the end of the book she gets exactly what she wants um she never loses her cool

32:58

she never gets in the way of the mission in fact she's vital to the mission so

33:04

um Miaki does that in in most of his stories his his his female characters

33:11

are great um there's a few that are not so great but um in general that was that

33:17

was the flavor that I wanted to um highlight in this story thank you for pointing that out

Character arc

33:24

because there was something about the two characters that I couldn't put my finger on but you you nailed it that

33:31

that yes krisen has The Angst he has the arc he has the journey right in in his particular way and then you have Rose

33:37

and she's a consistent Force throughout and it's and I guess I picked up on that

33:43

but I couldn't I couldn't quite there there was a relief in encountering her character not just in the completion of

33:49

the story but also also the the role that she plays okay so okay so there's a there's a lot going on in this story

33:57

there's a there's a lot I yeah Rose um part of the critiques I got from

34:04

early on when I was showing drafts of this around was that she was not interesting as a character because she

34:10

you know she had no character Arc but um that only just told me that I was on

34:15

the right track because I think not every character needs to have an arc to be compelling Rose is somebody who is

34:22

who she knows who she is she knows what she wants um and because she's unflustered by the chaos around her um

34:30

everything sort of conforms to her vision so

34:37

um she she is a she is she compels this Rowdy crew of pirate frogs by not

34:44

reacting to them I think that's something that is um incredibly important for especially younger girls

34:51

to learn is reacting is never helpful by reacting you're just put that other

34:58

person in charge so if you stay calm keep your emotions in check you can um

35:05

control any situation that you've been given that's that's wonderful that that

35:11

I did pick up on um and in in a couple of the scenes that she was very non-reactive in in environments where um

35:19

I think the opposite is portrayed in culture where where girls are en encouraged to be reactive there's one

35:26

particular scene I'm I'm think of you probably know the one where she's confronted with a with a with a big challenge very suddenly didn't quite go

35:33

the way that she wanted it to and her response is like oh drat here we go again you know what I mean like in a in

35:38

a very resign in a very grounded way and I was like as a reader as as of course I'm invested in in crisen story but as a

35:46

reader and who's as a man who's sensitive to some of these themes in culture today regarding feminism and the

35:52

male versus female roles and and women being second rate versions of men and all that to to have a a little girl

35:58

character who is authentically a little girl and isn't trying to be a bad version of little boy was incredibly

36:07

refreshing good glad to hear you say that I thought so too and I think the other thing that was

Domestic role

36:14

really that was really nice about it was um you didn't shy away from and I think this is probably okay to say because

36:20

it's in the first part of the book of of uh the little girl having a more domestic role an explicitly domestic

36:27

role but that didn't but that didn't feel demeaning and that's the part as I was working the way through the story how is he going to balance this without

36:33

it seeming demeaning because I I know that's that's of course what everyone in Moscow gets accused of being not what

36:39

they actually are I think what uh Pastor Doug just did the theob br's essay a couple days ago and he was sort of

36:45

talking about that but you managed to strike that balance very well of of her being in a in a and I guess we call it

36:51

the domestic role but it not but it being an enhancement of her character in the story in general

36:58

yeah I mean yeah it's just a big dumb boring lie that that the domestic role is

37:05

uninteresting and unfulfilling I think it's yeah one of feminism's biggest

37:11

crimes is that it produces incredibly boring characters boring people um I

37:17

just I hate it it's just it's so uncompelling um so I I made sure I yeah I wanted Rose

37:25

to to um offend all the wrong people so so she she's um you know at what

37:32

point the Pirates yell at the dragon to give us back our maid so it's it's uh I

37:38

just I just leaned into the stereotypes as much as I could because um in this

37:44

day and age well in any day and age the stereotypes you know they're they ring true for a reason

37:53

um yeah and also I have three little girls so yeah I've noticed that they

37:58

tend to be well feminine you know they're not they're

38:04

not out there playing with trucks and um making turning everything into a gun they everything they touch turns into a

38:11

nest or a baby or some kind of cooking utensil and nobody taught them that

38:18

that's just who they are and it's glorious why would I want to make that why would I want to turn them into something that they're not um so yeah I

38:26

wanted I wanted to be strong compelling and maintain while maintaining her uh

38:37

femininity and crisen got to be a little he's a he's very obviously a little boy you know it's he's not a he's not a man

Balance of characters

38:43

doing little boy things he's he's a little boy with little boy emotions on this big Quest and I think the balance

38:50

of the character so the and that's the that's the the only two characters of the book really are uh crisen and Rose

38:58

and you you balanced it and that that was the thing that I think really struck me again this is like a little kids book

39:03

which is you know that we that there's so much to unpack in a little kids book feels completely appropriate at the same

39:09

time but you you manag to also I mean krisen feels authentically like a little boy he's a little boy on an adventure

39:15

with little boy emotions and and he brings his sister along almost reluctantly but she plays a role in the

39:21

story it's just a there's something I don't know I I don't feel ashamed to say that it's just a very powerful story

39:26

that you craft and along with the visuals as well thank you yeah I appreciate it so um so maybe we can talk

39:35

also about hello ninja so I I had a copy of the first hello Ninja Book which I

39:40

won in in an NSA raffle so that but I I can't find it I I moved recently so

39:47

maybe it's in a box or maybe I donated it I don't have a lot of kid little kids running around so I'm Not Who Am I going to read this to so maybe you can talk a

39:52

little bit about that project as well yeah so that was that was the first thing that Nate and I worked on together

39:59

that was um I think I was still a senior in college when I jumped onto that and

40:06

um he he was just curious about the board book Market he wanted to try something

40:11

so he wrote um I think he wrote three actually one one was hell ninja one was blah blah black sheep and then maybe the

40:19

third one never got written but there was another third one with zebras I believe um

40:26

but um yeah so my goal with Ninja was just uh I wanted to make a board book

40:33

that didn't look like a lot of the board books that I had seen I wanted something that was colorful um had depth was fully

40:40

painted um it was all digitally done so it wasn't traditional paint but um I was

40:46

a art student at the time so I was just trying to paint things that I was

40:51

basically practicing what I had been seeing so I wanted different lighting situations different color palettes um

40:59

and that was kind of that was it that was as as far as I was thinking with that book um and then it went out there

41:07

it made its way into this into the Starbucks pick of the week which was um

41:12

one of Nate's other books a sample of it was going to be out there somehow that fell through so we just slotted in ninja

41:19

instead um that went well so from there it made its way into Target it sold well

41:24

at Target and at that point I think Nate and I were both thinking this is it couldn't go any further than this we we

41:31

had moved on creatively at least I had um but then Nate's agent in La picked it

41:36

up and decided to run with it and she shopped it around to a bunch of different Studios um and it ended up at

41:45

Netflix um Against All Odds and I think

41:51

2018 was when we started working on the show with a studio up in um Vancouver

41:59

called Atomic cartoons so um and Nate was a producer and a writer I was a

42:07

design consultant and a designer as well so um we both had um uh some creative

42:15

control throughout the whole process what was that process like watching that just kind of experiment

Lessons learned

42:23

reach the heights of culture in some ways um it was fantastic there I learned a lot

42:30

along the way and well probably more looking back as where all the lessons came from but um very grateful for it I

42:39

assumed that anything I touched from that point on would just be swept up into the machine and make millions of

42:45

dollars and be a huge hit oh obviously obviously that's what I assumed um it

42:50

hasn't worked out exactly like that what I know so but lot of lessons were learned it

42:58

was a great process um working with Netflix was actually pretty great um

43:04

working with atomic cartoons was fantastic they were all talented and very professional people so um overall

43:11

it was it was a really fun experience um yes has yet to be replicated but you

43:19

know we're working on it so what is the what is the hello ninja series about

Making the show

43:24

like what's the what's the overall was the overall vision sort of what what were you guys trying to achieve with it

43:29

originally and then how did that take shape as it blew up yeah um Nate could probably tell you

43:36

more about the original Vision I just know it was it was the original vision for me was make it as fun as possible he

43:42

just handed me the manuscript um and I just thought how can I squeeze as many fun things to paint as

43:50

possible into this little short board book so that was my goal make it fun um make it full of light make it a good

43:56

time um and that Vision make it fun was maintained

44:02

throughout the whole process but um once it was turned into a show um we were

44:08

very consciously trying to make a show that was genuinely healthy for kids

44:14

imagination so the goal was not to just provide um a little escape from reality

44:20

we wanted something that um would encourage kids on their own Journeys to

44:27

become better characters themselves so we wanted to um enforce play patterns

44:34

behavior um imaginative adventuring that would be imitated by

44:40

the viewers in a way that was constructive healthy normal because we knew we knew all the competition was

44:47

doing the same and but pointing kids in the wrong direction for the most part so

44:53

um it it just became one of Netflix's most expensive snacks that they ever

44:59

made for kids at least expensive go yeah they

45:06

um you know it was a year of production

45:12

many lots of money and um time and Manpower was made for was put into this

45:18

show that you know it's it's Four Seasons each episodes maybe 10 minutes long so um we we wanted to just leave

45:25

the audience better than we found them so um there were a few

45:31

um battles we had about um you know when

45:36

when there was some feminine T feminist tendencies that were trying to creep in or this or that and the other thing you

45:41

know um but overall it was there wasn't a whole lot that we had to fight about

45:48

um so yeah I'm I'm proud of it I'm I'm happy to have got to be a part of it and

45:56

I think it's a it's a good a good solid show so yeah that was going to be my

Bringing the show to Netflix

46:01

next next question like as you bring this healthy wholesome kid story into

46:08

Netflix which you know for for me I imagine that it's somewhat of a meat grinder to take a good idea and and

46:15

twist it around into some you know woke zombie version of what it once was you know to hear that it came out true to

46:22

the original vision is that's actually pretty encouraging to me yeah God was very kind and I think we

46:28

just we were were teamed up with the right people um and Netflix this was

46:35

before you know this was before 2020 this was before things at Netflix went

46:40

extremely woke they already were but um there's no way that two white guys like

46:47

myself and Nate could go make a show about a little Japanese boy today um

46:52

with Netflix at least um and maybe it'll swing back who knows um but we I Think

46:58

We snuck in right at the tail end of when that would be acceptable and um

47:04

workable so yeah I don't know the biggest lesson

47:10

was um all I can do is the best that I can do at the time and if God chooses to

47:16

bless it then no one's going to stop him so that was it maybe you could say more about that

Trusting God with the results

47:22

because I I imagine that there are probably some parents listening listening and probably some some creatives as well you know who uh of

47:29

course I've had my own creative processes that I've been involved in again like photography was a big one for me but maybe you can speak more about

47:36

that about you know trust like doing the best you can and trusting God with the results yeah I mean that's pretty much

47:43

it it's you want to do the best you can so that if God does bless it you're not

47:51

embarrassed once it's out there and famous um but also so that you know if

47:56

you if you make something to a certain if you make something excellent

48:02

it it will get out there I think cream Rises um but the the rising that's all God so

48:13

as an artist all you can really focus on focus on is making great cream like do

48:18

what you can to make the your craft as excellent as possible um position yourself if you can with the right

48:25

people to make it go um but you know we we plant water but

48:31

it's God who brings the increase so um everything I've worked on since ninja is

48:37

you know um has not gone as nearly as

48:42

explosive sure um but I'm it doesn't really bother me because I'm I'm still

48:47

just I know I'm doing the same thing that I was doing then for whatever reason nothing has worked out quite the same way but

48:54

um God God is the one that's going to bless it or not um when he feels like it

49:01

so MH I think there's real wisdom of that I've had some tweets go Mega viral

Put your all into it

49:07

around the world and if I keep trying to achieve that same thing again you know not even like maybe I maybe I'll get

49:14

there but I'll drive myself crazy trying to do it right when ultimately when something like that is happening it's

49:20

like well this is clearly a God thing and you know Praise Him for for making this possible but I'm not going to I'm

49:26

not going to be able ble to make lightning strike twice like I just have to do the best job that I can with everything that I put my hand to and and

49:33

God will take care of the rest you said something really interesting too you said um put your all into it so that you're not embarrassed because I guess

49:39

it is kind of possible that something could do really well and it's like oh there's a typo there or there's a

49:44

mistake there like God can do that as well which I I I tend to forget that

49:51

right and ninja was actually interesting because the first version of the book that you apparently had Somewhere In A

49:57

Box um yes you know I was a student when I made it so um oh yeah it was a little

50:04

bit you know I look at it now and I think oh wow that's you know I could do so much better but God didn't care I did

50:10

what I could and he took it and ran with it and then um we ended up selling the

50:15

book rights to Harper Collins and they went they went and made four four new ninja books so we remade the first book

50:22

we we made another one and then we made two kind of spin-off I can read ninja books and so I was actually able to go back

50:30

and just recreate the first book with you know four years of um artistic

50:37

expertise on under my belt which I was grateful for so I could kind of Tinker

50:43

with it once it was already out there which is not an opportunity that's often given to

50:48

artists yes I can I can relate to that where where I go back and listen to something maybe an interview that I did

50:55

or something like that I look at that it's like oh I would do that so much better now right that's just part of it so um

Cultivate your gifts

51:03

so maybe you can talk a little bit about thinking back on your experience as an

51:09

artist um especially for the parents who are listening you know what can what can

51:14

they do what helped you cultivate your gifts and abilities that was unique to your upbringing like who maybe some some

51:22

teachers that made a difference maybe some things that your parents did that really gave you added push in your gifts

51:28

because I imagine there's probably more than a few parents listening that have spotted what they think or what might

51:33

even really be genuine artistic talent and interest in their children and that they don't know how to cultivate that

51:39

because they don't have it themselves so maybe you can share a little bit about the maybe some of the individuals or some of the decisions that were made you

51:45

know for you to help to help uh you know Shepherd you in a particular

51:51

direction yeah so I think there's two two answers to that question the first is that my parents were never concerned

51:59

really about my desire to become an artist they were only ever encouraging um which I was very grateful

52:05

for because instead of making me complacent and um lazy in my pursuit of um artistic

52:15

Excellence I only ever wanted to you know please them so it was um it was

52:22

encouraging that they were only ever encouraging obviously um um they they

52:27

they weren't trying to hold me back or they weren't asking me questions like what how are you going to make money

52:33

maybe they ought to have been but they uh they never worried about it they only ever encouraged me bought me art

52:39

supplies gave me art lessons um and that just made me want to work hard to not

52:45

let them down I guess um and then my high school basketball coach um I I

52:53

credit him the most with um the the work ethic so Talent only gets you so far

53:00

even even interest only gets you so far you know you can love something you can be good at it but unless you're unless

53:08

you have the um skill set the muscle memory that it takes to show up and

53:14

actually put the work in all that interest and intent is not going to go

53:19

anywhere so I learned my my work ethic what little work ethic I have comes from

53:25

high school basketball so um high school basketball was where I learned to just keep pushing even when I

53:32

wanted to lie down and give up and or you know be done um so Athletics

53:39

combined with nothing but encouragement from my parents um I think enabled me to

53:48

actually make it as a professional artist and then I'll say one more thing um we weren't very good our high school

53:55

basketball team was not very good so we lost a lot um and at the end of the game

54:01

the score was always objective and it did not care about how you felt artists can tend to be coddled

54:10

their emotions can be coddled by their parents by their peers because the artistic temperament is given a free

54:15

pass because that's just the way that artists are and let's not you know we'll just leave them there they're weird they

54:22

are weird but um they need artists need to be in

54:30

uh absolute control of their emotions so that when you put something out into the

54:36

world and it doesn't go well it's um you're not affected by it so it's um

54:43

losing at basketball all the time knowing that there's objective standards for excellence objective standards for

54:49

beauty truth goodness that all apply to what you're making um is you have to get

54:55

there emotionally intellectually um so that you don't get out the out into the world and just

55:02

think that you know likes on Instagram translates to success as a human being

55:07

you know right so um develop a thick skin get used to losing um but don't

55:13

ever settle with losing just keep grinding keep pushing um always be

55:21

chasing that Excellence can you talk a little bit more about that because it seems like um

Failure

55:29

that ties into some some of what we said about non-reactivity it ties in to discipline

55:36

um and it it ties in also to the only way that we really achieve Excellence is

55:42

through failure right and so I think that there's a tendency that we have in culture today and I think it shows up

55:48

across culture to not tell somebody when they've failed at something which does

55:54

them a great disservice you know you have to like like like you said like a a

55:59

a basketball score is objective doesn't matter how you feel about it but because we think of art as subjective and to

56:05

some extent it is but I think we all know when we listen to a song that we like or a a good song whether or not we

56:11

like it or look at a beautiful painting or whatever it is we know when something lands but if we're afraid to tell

56:18

somebody when it doesn't how will they know what it takes to produce something that does and I think a lot of the

56:24

hesitation that people have is like well I don't want to hurt their feelings like well maybe they kind of need their feelings to be hurt you don't

56:30

intentionally hurt their feelings right like I'm going to get them but you have to maybe you can talk to some because

56:35

you had to work through that like every professional artist that I've ever met has had to work through countless

56:41

failures emotionally right the thing that they really liked like you know they put it out there and it's like no

56:47

it doesn't work what this me right so maybe you can talk some because that's this the professional side of being an

56:54

artist yeah it's it's just I mean it's it's cliche it's not how many times you

56:59

get hit but how many times you get back up it's just can you do it over and over again and yeah being an artist you're

57:05

putting your whole soul into something when you're creating it it's it's like you are you are God this is

57:13

amazing it's the inspiration is flowing and then you put it out there nobody

57:19

cares it gets 10 likes on social media which is or or you know you put it out there you hand it to your mom and they

57:25

just go that's nice slap it on the fridge and then it's in the in the trash the next day um yeah it's funny this is so my girls

57:33

won't stop drawing which is good they're they're good at it and they love it um

57:38

they're making books constantly um but this is something that we're dealing with you know there's six and four but

57:46

when um I throw away their drawings all the time because at first I was trying to keep everything you know because I

57:52

didn't want to hurt their feelings and I wanted to I wanted to have record of this pure artistic

57:58

expression but I realized quickly that that was not actually helping them grow like no you yeah you made a nice drawing

58:04

we'll put on the fridge for a day maybe and then it's in the trash because it's onto the next one like you know if it's

58:10

really excellent I'll stick it in a frame put it on the wall um but and once

58:17

yeah now they're they're totally comfortable with their drawings being trashed all the time not not by me right

58:23

but you know thrown into the trash and that's I it's that's the mindset that I

58:30

think every artist needs to cultivate is that the work is just work it's not who

58:36

you are it's it's um it's something that you're producing in order to bless other people if they

58:44

are not blessed by it you can't get offended at that so if you put it out there and nobody likes it all that tells

58:50

me is that you put it out there as because you wanted praise you wanted your own ego to be scratched and you

58:58

wanted your friends to say wow I could never do that you know um but the whole point is that you're

59:05

making um food for somebody else's Soul you want them to be uplifted encouraged

59:11

inspired so then if if you frame it that way you put something you put a painting

59:17

up on the wall and nobody is uplifted or encouraged it that wouldn't make any

59:22

sense to throw a fit about that you say I'll just have to make it better and

59:27

then um hopefully it will achieve its goal can you talk about if you'd be

Lead Balloon

59:34

willing to one of your experiences where there was something that you were particularly attached to and you put it out there and it maybe went over like a

59:40

lead balloon and you had to work through you had to work through that

59:49

H maybe there have been too many to count but I couldn't I couldn't I can't remember I don't know it just I think my

59:56

ditch might be on the other side where I I maybe I preemptively you know despise my own

1:00:03

work just so that it's when somebody else doesn't like it I can well I beat you to it I also think it's not any good

1:00:09

so whatever you can't hurt me you can't fire me I quit um so so there's that

1:00:16

other that's I think that's my ditch is is to be a little more uh to cut the

1:00:22

cord a little too readily maybe or to be to just throw it out there and move on

1:00:27

you know um yeah so I can't I can't sorry I can't

1:00:34

recall a time when I was devastated that somebody didn't like what I did I'm sure it happened I know it happened but I

1:00:39

just I don't know I don't remember no I mean the the the what I'm what I'm getting at I think um and that makes a

1:00:46

lot of sense that you would preemptively dismiss your own work for fear of being

1:00:51

hurt and you're right that is definitely a ditch so because I'm I'm interested in and for the parents listening and for

1:00:57

the creative people listening who are who struggle with these issues either themselves or their kids because I think

1:01:03

that there are so many gifted and talented children and adults for that matter who um have learned to dismiss

1:01:10

their own work or have learned to overvalue their own work and finding that way through that path navigating

1:01:16

that but then also how how we can learn to cultivate our own creative process whether or not we want to go pro with it

1:01:22

because I think everyone has a has a different we'll call it a creative gift in a different field whether it be music or the visual arts or writing but the

1:01:29

process of of birthing it of shipping it as they say in the tech World it that's the terrifying thing it's easier to

1:01:35

leave something unfinished or keep it private than to actually subject it to someone looking at it and so I think

1:01:42

that's really important for people to learn how to do for their own well-being for their own creativity for glorifying

1:01:48

God and also especially for parents who are watching their children grow and are

1:01:54

trying to express gifts and want to know how to cultivate them but also knowing that it's a it's a hard world right and

1:02:00

just because you think something is amazing doesn't mean anyone else will but you also have to think it's amazing too maybe I'm I hope I'm putting my

1:02:08

thoughts together the right way oh yeah that's all it all makes sense I

1:02:13

think um yeah well going back to the

1:02:18

other ditch where if if you're out there trashing your own work before anyone else can that's just as selfish as

1:02:26

um looking for the the ego trip where you're just looking for praise so either you're just looking for praise or you

1:02:32

throw it out there and then you just say oh it's so bad I'm no good I'm no good that's just as selfish and just as gross

1:02:37

you should stop it um it's and it's also a disservice to the to your audience so

1:02:43

if you throw something out there and it does connect it does bless them they do like it and then you know you're out

1:02:49

there saying as it's no good you're just telling those people that their taste is bad and that this thing that they

1:02:56

genuinely had affection for is dumb you know from maybe one of their Heroes you

1:03:01

know it's so trashing your own work is selfish um looking for praise is selfish

1:03:08

so the whole point is like I said to bless somebody else so um if it's about

1:03:16

you um it's going to end in tears it is challenging because at the

1:03:23

end of the day you're the one that has to make it it's your tastes your skill level um your time Blood Sweat and Tears

1:03:31

that is going into this project so you do have to like it um and you do have to

1:03:36

know it intimately inside and out um just to make it you know before you can

1:03:42

ship it um but at the end of the day you're just cooking a meal you're making something to feed somebody else and when

1:03:51

you look at it that way you don't want to be the chef that puts something on the table and just say yeah it's you

1:03:56

know I could have done better or the there's there wasn't as much salt and

1:04:02

everyone's just enjoying the meal and you're over here saying yeah this wasn't salty enough sorry apologizing for it

1:04:07

and ruining everybody's experience just put it out there um and just make a you

1:04:13

know flag a note okay needs more salt so next time the meal will be a little bit

1:04:18

better next time it'll be a little bit better and um just don't make it about yourself once you start once once it's

1:04:26

out there can you think okay so so addressing the other ditch then can you

1:04:31

think of uh when you had to learn how to accept praise because that is definitely a thing where people don't know how to

1:04:37

graciously someone says that's amazing and if the T the tendency is to say oh no no it's terrible like no you want to

1:04:44

honor them in their experience maybe you can talk about that um yeah this going back to

1:04:51

basketball one of my friends one of my teammates his dad just told him look at

1:04:56

the end of the game if somebody says good game doesn't matter if you won or lost all you have to say back is good

1:05:02

game great job you know you don't you don't need to say I shot so poorly or yeah you know and then or flatter them

1:05:08

and you know you did really great too you know all you need to say is thank you and then

1:05:14

um you know if if somebody Yeah the more I make things the more I realize that

1:05:22

it's not it's I'm just sort of showing up and putting stuff together but the idea and the art sort of comes from

1:05:29

somewhere else I'm sort of just an archaeologist discovering something that's what it feels like so when

1:05:35

somebody else comes and says oh I loved this you know I'm I'm just free to say

1:05:40

oh thank you I also thought that was great wasn't it awesome and it's just it's something that's just totally

1:05:47

divorced from my own ego my own Pride um and we're free to enjoy it together

1:05:52

because now it's out there um it doesn't really belong to me anymore it's just this um artifact floating in the wild um

1:06:02

so yeah if somebody Praises you just say thank you that's it and it's yeah then you bite your tongue you don't say I'll

1:06:09

do better next time yeah I I still feel that um don't say I'll do better next time or don't

1:06:14

trash your work um but definitely definitely don't rely on praise as a fuel to keep you

1:06:24

going um it's praise is nice it's encouraging um

1:06:32

but it's not you're not really gonna you never learn from it you only really

1:06:37

learn from um critique honest critique so say say more about that I

1:06:45

mean if you throw something out in the world and well let's take social media for another example you you you post a

1:06:51

drawing and of course no one's going to I mean maybe this happens I guess but people don't jump in the comments and

1:06:56

just say you stink go home quit drawing everyone just says wow amazing amazing you're the best oh I wish I could draw

1:07:02

like you whatever it is um and then that becomes sort of your the end goal of

1:07:09

what it is you're doing that praise is it's just going to stunt your growth

1:07:14

because you're not actually going to learn anything so if you don't if you throw something out there no one's offering constructive criticism they're

1:07:21

just they're just um making your head a little bit bigger and the worst thing you can do as a creative is learn to

1:07:29

rely on that or to even worse to love it to love praise you should you should

1:07:34

always feel a little bit uncomfortable when somebody says great job this is awesome um yeah so you don't

1:07:44

and praise is good because it means that somebody else was blessed that's kind of

1:07:50

that's all it tells you um but if you throw something out there and you get a

1:07:55

criticism that's really actually helpful data because now you can go back and say okay this didn't land either because the

1:08:03

audience missed it or because I failed to deliver um and if I failed to deliver

1:08:09

then then you can go and say what how was it this story um was it color

1:08:15

drawing and then you can dissect it and may maybe they maybe the audience picked up on something that

1:08:21

um they think is the problem but you have to be intelligent enough to

1:08:27

identify the the problem somewhere else so you fix it over here and then that

1:08:33

particular reaction goes away if that makes any sense um so that when when

1:08:38

people don't like something that's when I really pay attention because then I

1:08:43

and then you have to ask why didn't they like it is it their problem is it my problem is it the work's problem and

1:08:49

then once you identify a problem then there's an opportunity for um education and growth and that's exciting you know

1:08:57

growth is always fun and that's why it's so important to subject yourself to to valid criticism

1:09:04

even though it might hurt your feelings even though you have an emotional attachment to something and by I mean the Royal you of course you know that's

1:09:11

the way that you're going to grow is by finding out what works and what didn't from an objective Observer not just friends not just family right who they

1:09:18

of course they they're going to love what you do because they love you but there is something about like no you put it up and you let the public look at it

1:09:25

you let them tear it apart it's terrible but you got to do it yeah

1:09:31

absolutely so maybe you can share a little bit with uh maybe some of the projects that you have coming up for either Cannonball or Canon press or what

1:09:38

you're working on uh what you're working on yourself um yeah so right now I'm

1:09:44

working full-time with Canon press on some animation content that is

1:09:50

um we're trying to get a right now it's there's a show and a feature that we're building out um sort of elaborate pitch

1:09:58

decks for so I'm doing some short sample animation for these projects that we

1:10:04

will then go out and um attempt to Wrangle some funding for so that's what

1:10:10

I'm doing full-time right now um I'm painting on the side there's the gallery

1:10:15

that you saw as a new addition to Moscow

1:10:20

um owned by or run by new St Angers college so I'm supplying some some

1:10:25

paintings there um and then I'm working on a graphic novel on the other side as

1:10:32

well so those are the uh the the main projects that I've got going at the

1:10:37

moment so you're so how do you I mean I guess you're all it sounds like you're always creating something whether you're

1:10:43

at work or whether you're working on the graphic novel or you're painting like is this is this just a constant state of of

1:10:49

I guess a state of mind that you're in uh yes it's all yeah

1:10:55

the short answer is yes I mean I will say that Sundays are

1:11:01

extremely important um and you start to understand the way

1:11:06

that that why God did it the way that he did because I can I know that I can just

1:11:12

you know all six cylinders for six weeks just run flat out knowing that on Sunday

1:11:18

I can just collapse and you know spend time with my family um and rest and I

1:11:26

I'm not allowed to draw I don't draw on Sundays that's you know um

1:11:31

so yeah Sundays are extra extra sweet these days um

1:11:38

yeah do you have a day set aside or a time of the week set aside to do your painting like this is just because I

1:11:43

would imagine there's something very personal about that this is this is for me this is what I'm doing or maybe I'm maybe I'm wrong about that but it would

1:11:50

seem to me that like this is something that requires such focus and such and there's a degree of intimacy to it as as

1:11:55

well is it or is it just whenever it comes up during the week um no yeah

1:12:01

generally the weekends are when I've when I paint these days um but it's either but

1:12:08

that is flexible as well so I'm I've been doing just early mornings you know

1:12:13

I'm up early working then the kids are up getting them ready for school then it's off to work with Canon press and

1:12:20

then home for dinner um spending time with the family until they're in bed and

1:12:26

then maybe I'll do um a little bit of work but usually I try to get to bed early so that I can get up yeah early

1:12:32

again the next day you know the rhythms of a professional artist sound like a professional anything amazing yes it

1:12:39

turns out it's work you mean you're not just you know up at 3 o'clock in the morning waiting

1:12:45

for the Muse to appear well no I am but it's uh yeah sometimes it shows

1:12:53

up but I'm there whether not the Muse is there that's the goal and you're working on uh just real

1:13:01

just just real quickly you're working on animation now so I think you had mentioned earlier that you wanted to be getting into animation and now you

1:13:07

finally worked your way around to that yeah it's I've I'm I'm very grateful for how that's worked out so we don't um

1:13:15

nothing is nailed down yet but we're all hopeful we have we've projects that we like um but it's um yeah I'm I'm doing

1:13:24

traditional hand drawn animation and it's oh wow extremely fun some of the most fun I've had in my entire career I

1:13:31

would say so so handdrawn like cell animation yes yeah so it's not it's not

1:13:37

on paper we're I you know we're drawing directly on the computer but okay still we're all we're doing is we're skipping

1:13:43

the scanning process um other than other than that it's the same so oh my

1:13:50

goodness see that is something see now I'm going to say that is something I could never do

1:13:57

yeah it is absurd I can't it doesn't yeah it's it's a lot of work yes a lot

1:14:05

of very detail oriented micro work in a way just the the subtle changes of a

1:14:12

facial expression oh I I couldn't do it right and and the back to how we started this conversation this is why when I'm

1:14:18

painting I'm trying to be sloppy and loose and relax and just have fun because during my day job I'm worrying

1:14:25

about you know turning a character in in three-dimensional space on a page and

1:14:32

it's just there's math involved you know it's it's a little more complicated see that makes a lot of

1:14:37

sense like like we started talking about the difference between like a Crispen and the impressionistic painting in the

1:14:44

gallery that makes a lot of sense to me that you know producing something as detail oriented and as precise is this

1:14:49

how appealing it would be if you're always in the head space to be drawing or painting to produce something some

1:14:55

some some something so much more loose and uh and evocative I guess

1:15:01

right well uh this has been fantastic I know you've got uh a lot of work here today thank you so much for the

1:15:06

generosity of your time and and uh walking me and walking us through uh through your artwork is is there some

1:15:11

place that people can go online to find your a gallery of your paintings or or

1:15:17

images of your paintings or something like that um yeah Forest dick.com is

1:15:23

okay you can go there there's a news letter to sign up for um the only time I send out a newsletter is when I have new

1:15:30

paintings which is rare these days um but then you can find me on Instagram I

1:15:35

do have a Twitter but mostly I repost paintings of dead people so

1:15:41

that's not really my own work oh paintings of dead people yeah the you

1:15:46

know the Masters the old the oh okay yeah the the old uh the old dead guys who really knew how to paint you know I

1:15:53

just I just repost what I like on my Twitter so paintings of dead people I

1:15:58

should say paintings by dead people that sounded terrible took me a second

1:16:04

secret yeah yeah uh whatever we don't need to go there

1:16:12

paintings by pe by Old Masters who are now deceased but because their paintings

1:16:18

are still around they've with stood the test of time and they're great paintings of dead people that's terrible a way to

1:16:25

sign off that's perfect so who are some who are some of your favorite no it's so

1:16:33

good it's great who are some of your favorite Masters my favorite dead people

1:16:39

um yes exact the your favorite paintings of dead people oh jeez uh oh it's so good it's

1:16:47

great yeah I love I love John Singer Sergeant I love Wen sya um I love the old Japanese Masters

1:16:55

um Yoshida Hiroshi in particular um I love the California

1:17:01

Impressionists so Edgar Payne William went are some of my favorites NC wyth I

1:17:08

love the end pages of Christmas rainy day are a nod to NC WTH okay um

1:17:16

and recently I've been reading a biography of the artist mayor Dixon um

1:17:25

who was uh painting a little before NC WTH in the American southwest

1:17:32

so yeah those are those are some of my go-tos I've always been big been a big

1:17:38

fan of Alfred beer stat and Casper David and Casper David fried Reich I I

1:17:44

originally like the The Wander above the Sea of fog I think that's still a classic painting but there's so many others of his that that are so beautiful

1:17:52

yeah that's a good one yeah and beer St that's Landscapes of the American West is like time traveling yeah those are

1:18:00

great wonderful well thank you so much again uh for your time be sure to send people to your website and your Twitter

1:18:05

thank you so much Forest yeah thanks for having me well take care Lord bless you take care

1:18:13

[Music]