0:00

when our family was moving to South Africa my dad had it in mind that he

0:06

would have to be engaging with racists and in his mind he understood that was

0:11

going to be his mission field and I mean he will tell you just numerous stories

0:17

of the Triumph of that uh the Triumph of the Gospel over people's minds and over

0:23

people's hearts and actually seeing the transformation there an all-h church that would call a black minister to be

0:30

their Pastor would not have been a very popular move um and yet they still went ahead with it and so this gospel really

0:37

is a potent thing um it's it's not just a an intellectual exercise that has no

0:44

ramifications for the real world this gospel has the capacity to turn worlds upside down for the better in many ways

0:51

I've had a front row seat to see that happen

1:03

hello my name is Will Spencer and welcome to the will Spencer podcast this is a weekly Show featuring in-depth

1:09

conversations with authors leaders and influencers who help us understand our changing World new episodes release

1:16

every Friday my guest this week is linu Califa host of the podcast of flames and

1:21

crowns a production of new St Andrews College in Moscow Idaho now I love my dear brother Linux and I hope he will

1:27

forgive me because I'm about to sing his praise I believe Lennox has an important voice

1:32

in this moment of American History because as you may have noticed there's an idea circulating that members of

1:38

other ethnicities such as black or African are somehow less able in their Essence to embody the promise of the

1:45

Gospel men are tweeting in the clear things like race is real and whites are Supreme and rather than receiving

1:52

Universal rebuke for such statements men who should otherwise know better are saying things like that man is a good

1:59

friend now perhaps it's me but if I were friends with a man who said something like that in public or in private I

2:06

would reconsider my friendship with him a man who considers himself Superior because of skin color is likely to

2:12

consider himself Superior for many other reasons too and down this road you get thoughts like that guy is 1/8 less white

2:19

than me so I am Superior to him then come racial Purity tests and it all goes

2:25

straight to Hell literally I'm baffled that some men can't or won't see this

2:30

but be that as it may in an environment where such ideas are being entertained and spoken aloud we need counter

2:37

examples exceptions that don't just prove the rule rather demolish it from the inside take Dr visha mangaa for

2:44

example he was born in India the same India that white Western supremacists regularly mock Dr mangaa was my guest

2:52

back in October for one of my favorite podcasts ever his Works including the book that made your world and this book

2:59

changed everything demonstrate not just his abiding faithfulness but his wisdom

3:04

and genuine Brilliance there's no other conclusion once you do the reading if the white supremacists are truly Supreme

3:11

I invite them to write competing books on any topic of their choice my only requirement the books must glorify God

3:18

over themselves I'd say I'll wait but I reckon I'll be waiting a long time because being Supreme is much harder

3:25

than simply saying that you are meanwhile men like Dr mangti are doing the hard work of real Innovation

3:32

regardless of adverse circumstance bringing a Biblical perspective from their regenerated Hearts outward to a

3:38

hurting world and now to my brother Lennox who probably thought he could Escape my admiration but to no avail I

3:45

see Lennox and Dr mangawa in a similar light though at different stages in their lives Lennox was born and raised

3:52

in subsaharan Africa the son of a pastor growing up he had none of the advantages we enjoy in the west as you'll hear him

3:59

say in this interview he regards sidewalks as a sign of civilizational advancement and having traveled in many

4:05

third world countries that lack them I know exactly what he means by the white supremacist reasoning Lennox should be

4:12

less able in essence to embody the gospel's promise and yet Lennox is a faithful wise and thoughtful man one

4:19

reason I enjoy his podcast and highly recommend it Lennox thinks chrisly about his experience both from living inside

4:26

the United States and out he asks questions from the depth of his Insight showing he cares about his guests and

4:33

the truth and as you'll hear he's good humored jovial and deeply humble don't

4:39

worry bro we're almost done all these qualities should be impossible from a white supremacist perspective here's a

4:44

man from subsaharan Africa populated by what I'm told are the most lesser of the Lesser humans just like bishel mangaa is

4:52

from India yet both these men's minds and hearts inspire me in different ways and set a standard that frankly I think

4:59

many less melanated men fail to even try to live up to because it's easier to be

5:05

part of the meme class than the reading class it takes less time a smaller vocabulary and a shorter attention span

5:11

you could put effort into writing books painting works of art and carving sculptures or you can lar the

5:18

accomplishments of your forebears with jpegs gifts and AI artwork take your

5:23

pick I suppose but only one has the chance to build a meaningful Legacy or stand the test of time and that kind of

5:30

thinking is what enduring civilizations are built upon not bitterness over what was but love for what could be and the

5:37

desire to share it righteously and spread it so maybe just maybe the promises of the Gospel aren't based on

5:44

skin color but on faithfulness that faithfulness is demonstrated by our repeated choice to let challenging

5:51

circumstances sanctify us rather than making us resentful and that commitment to making that choice over and over

5:58

again is what prepares us for great things new adventures and new friendships like a man set sail on a

6:04

great gallion ship Bound for a New World perhaps even all the way from Zambia to

6:10

a little Old Town in Idaho just like my friend Linux appreciate you bro if this is your first time enjoying the will

6:16

Spencer podcast welcome if you like what you hear please subscribe to the channel hit that like button with force and

6:22

leave a comment letting us know what you thought if you're listening on Spotify or apple subscribe there as well and

6:28

don't forget to leave a five star review so others can join the party if you'd like to go deeper you can subscribe to

6:33

my substack at the link in the description or click buy me a coffee in the show notes every contribution you

6:39

make helps keep this independent platform running and please welcome this week's guest on the podcast from of

6:45

flames and crowns and new St Andrews College Lennox Califa Lennox Califa of the flames and

Welcome Lennox to Podcast

6:53

crowns podcast welcome so much to the will Spencer podcast well it's great to

6:58

be here will thank you so much uh I'm a big fan of yours if you didn't know and

7:03

uh any excuse to hang out with you is uh is an honor to me so yeah man thank you

Mutual Admiration Society

7:09

well this is going to be a wonderful interview it'll be the mutual admiration Society annual meeting because I I have

7:14

to say that I'm I'm a huge fan of you and what you do as well apprciate that brother and um I know like a like a good

7:20

podcast host you're very focused on your guests you're very focused on their stories and what they have to say and

7:28

and as a result you're sort of a Man of Mystery so I've been looking forward to having this conversation with you to to

7:33

demystify or perhaps even enhance the mystery of lenx I kind of like the smoke and mirror

7:39

sometimes you know preserve that mystery uh but I think it's time we we dispelled some myths here so let's do this of

Smoke and Mirrors

7:47

flames and crowns and smoke and mirrors there you go smoke and that's the next podcast of smoke and

7:54

mirrors so let's let's let's kind of start at the beginning then so let's so you came here from Africa you're you're

8:00

living up in Moscow working for NSA so sort of talk about you know life in Africa your upbringing your background

8:07

you you hinted at a little bit with your interview with uh Dr manga but maybe talk a little bit about that for a while

8:13

and and then what brought you to the states yes I I had a very interesting upbringing so I am natively from a

Life in Africa

8:19

country in subsaharan Africa called Zambia um it is uh it is right in the

8:26

heart of Africa like sort of South Central Africa is where that is it's it's surrounded by nine different

8:33

countries um and that's where I'm natively from um but I spent uh my

8:38

formative years growing up in South Africa uh Petoria South Africa which was which was very interesting um we my

8:46

family and I moved there um in the '90s uh right off the hills of aparte having

8:53

been overthrown it it had just ended and my father who um is still a minister to

8:59

to this day was called to a pastorate in ptor South Africa um an all white church

9:06

um in an all white neighborhood which was a fascinating way to grow up and so there's a sense in

9:13

which I have from the time I was young been in environments where

9:20

there's just interesting cultures around me um which I think have informed um

9:27

just the way that I think uh in many ways and so the interesting thing with that actually is despite growing up in

9:36

Africa I had a fundamentally Western upbringing um the the languages that I

9:43

spoke were English and Africans which is sort of a language that is um um well

9:51

it's it's it's built off of Dutch um and it's sort of become its own thing now um

9:56

but that's that's what I grew up speaking and so that was an interesting way to grow up and uh we had a blessed time there uh it was it was interesting

10:05

just trying to understand what culture was uh who I was in the midst of um a

10:13

context where I didn't quite look like everybody you know um but because that's where I grew up um I thought like most

10:20

of the people I grew up around um which was interesting and then you know I guess we were there for about 10 years

10:26

and after that uh we moved back to Zambia um I was I was in my my my teen years at

10:33

this point uh and that was interesting as well because Zambia is still in many

10:38

ways a third world country uh which means that my upbringing in South Africa and my time in Zambia were just two very

10:46

different things and so I've always had this ability to compare culture uh

10:51

because of that same upbringing um there's a sense in which I've been a foreigner everywhere I've lived um which

10:59

is which is which is a fascinating thought um but having these cultural

11:05

contrasts living in the midst of this contrast really piqued my own interest

11:11

for things like culture and culture building um Christian worldview things

11:17

um and I got involved in efforts in helping people develop a Christian worldview public theology

11:24

apologetics um definitely with a with an emphasis on culture uh and so that's

11:31

that's shaped a lot of the way that I think and um the way that I live my life and uh about seven months ago my family

11:39

and I moved out to Moscow Idaho Pacific Northwest of the US uh which is another

11:44

very big jump you know um uh and it's it's amazing that I can be this far away

11:50

from where I grew up and still find like-minded Brothers with whom I share a

11:58

culture with which I think would make many people's heads spin uh I mean one of the

12:04

questions I get asked most frequently is what have I found most culturally

12:09

shocking and sure there's some interesting things about American culture uh for example Americans love

12:15

their peanut butter and they put it in absolutely everything even in foods that you know probably wouldn't appreciate

12:22

the peanut butter being there but you know that's fine we'll work with that we'll work with that so there're those

12:29

kind of like subtle let say like yeah insignificant idiosyncrasies right um

12:35

and yet I can still be in fellowship with a wonderful Christian Community um

12:40

we we're trying to order our homes in much the same way uh we have the same

12:46

emphasis on what we want to do um how to engage culture um all of that and it's

12:52

been it's been a terrific experience um and so yeah by the Providence of God um

12:58

connections were made between um what I was involved with back in Zambia and what's going on here in

13:05

Moscow and yeah we've been here seven months now it's been really good you've enjoyed you've enjoyed the the time then

Moving to United States

13:11

how how long did it take you to get over the culture shock well first of all had you been to the United States before and how much if so how much time had you

13:17

spent here versus like when you got here and you're on the ground and you moved into a house and now you are you're in

13:24

small town America you are in America America yeah I'm very curious about that

13:30

that's a it's a great question so I had visited before but just a year before actually so uh my family and I moved

13:37

here in 2024 but I had visited in 2023 um so I happened to visit Moscow as

13:45

well uh I mean spent it's not really significant to say that I spent time in other airports that you know that I uh

13:54

uh that I passed through um but it was it was it was helpful to certainly get

13:59

that first experience to help me assimilate um actually having made the move uh I mean yeah there's just all

14:06

kinds of differences um in America people drive on the on what should be

14:12

considered the wrong side of the road but you know uh on the right side of the road um I I think much of the world

14:19

drives on the other side of the road so so small things like that just different

14:24

infrastructure um it's been interesting trying to understand the kinds of things that

14:31

people value at a small level at the minute level um just trying to

14:36

understand how people think the kind of things that they appreciate uh things like what kind of gifts do people in

14:42

this part of the world appreciate um things like that have been very interesting um what etiquette is uh in

14:51

America do do do people pay their own bill when they've been invited out for

14:56

lunch um do or do they expect who have invited them for lunch to C like it's it's small things like that right yeah

15:04

um so I mean it's kind of fun to figure all that out um but yeah it's been it's

15:11

been good it's generally been good nothing shocking to the point where we're completely misplaced or feel like

15:18

we've landed on Mars or something like that no not at all um it's generally been a very good experience so I want to

15:25

get into the larger worldview issues but before we do okay I'm curious so when you got here and you and you and you're

15:32

you're you're embedded that's something that you thought that there was no way that you were going to like or get used

15:39

to about America that you've kind of come to be like okay I actually kind of like that that's very good actually uh

15:45

one thing that comes to mind is snow you know so I mean before moving here I had

15:51

never seen snow right and I really thought that I yeah exactly um so I

15:57

really thought I'd struggle with it and it would just be so different but honestly I I really enjoyed the snow and

16:06

um just enjoy the scenery that comes with it and um yeah it's just a it's a whole unique season on its own um so

16:13

yeah I wasn't expecting that but turns out yeah I actually quite like snow um

16:19

yeah sure there's some things that I I I can say I appreciate a little bit more um I've

16:26

probably never tried to follow foot ball as as closely as I as I try to do now

16:32

you know um yeah things like that that I think uh I didn't necessarily think I'd

16:37

get into but yeah here we are is there something that you thought that you would like that you definitely don't

16:44

like peanut butter and everything okay when when you say

16:49

everything no like no like it's just it's just odd like here you kind of find all kinds of foods that have a lot of

16:56

peanut butter like where I come from peanut butter is a spread that you put on your bread and that's it you know uh

17:04

you know maybe you might make a dessert that's got some peanut butter maybe um but here it's an it's an ice cream

17:11

there's different variations of just everything peanut butter uh which I find

17:17

uh intriguing so yeah I know exactly what I'm getting you for

17:23

Christmas I'll take it I'll take it I'll take all right okay so let's let's go

17:28

back back to um let's go back to your time in Africa so um in some sense okay

17:33

so you you mentioned that you were growing up and your dad was a pastor of a of a a predominantly white church

17:39

right and Christianity is of course like it's struggling to get a foothold in

17:44

Africa as it is in many places around the world so in some sense you had a dual uh I guess you might say cultural

17:50

challenge of blending in with the larger African Community subsaharan African

Gospel's Transformation Power

17:56

Community that is not necessarily predisposed towards Christian and Christianity and you're in this white

18:01

community so talk talk a little bit about that yeah that's that's an excellent question um you know African

18:07

history in that sense is a very interesting thing to consider for example in South Africa South Africa is

18:14

actually South Africa actually has a very long Christian Heritage almost as long as America has had a Christian

18:21

Heritage uh so Dutch Puritans had moved down to South Africa I believe this was

18:26

in this in the 17th century and and essentially established um a Christian

18:31

Colony there um and you still see the glories of that Heritage today uh South

18:39

Africa is just much more sophisticated than almost any other country in Africa

18:45

um you go to South Africa and you think okay this is very much a first world

18:50

country um and sure it still has its pockets of a developing country so to

18:57

speak um but it has this very rich Heritage and so it was interesting being

19:03

in a context where you're exposed to some of that I mean uh to be fair I

19:08

should also qualify and say I think a lot of that has been lost to secularism right um and over time as as South

19:16

Africa became tolerant of just different kinds of religions yeah it's just become

19:23

sort of a cesspool of cultural Madness um in many ways South Africa is really

19:28

struggling um they it's it's sad to see where they are today they're even making

19:33

the news um these days so um it's it's really struggled a lot because

19:40

of the ideas that it has em bibed but then in contrast to the rest of Africa

19:47

um yeah it still stands out at least economically um generally speaking um

19:53

infrastructure um but the rest of Africa um is

19:59

is yeah just not not at that level the influence of Christianity uh had not

20:06

yet really influence the culture there has been quite a lot of mission work in

20:11

many African countries uh but it's a sort of mission work that um at best

20:17

people have a base understanding of what the gospel is uh have a base

20:23

understanding of how to be right with God but they do not yet have a framework

20:30

through which they can think through the whole of life through which they can make sense of how Christianity pertains

20:37

to every single realm every single area of life that's yet to happen so by and

20:44

large a large part of Africa has been evangelized but it has not yet been

20:50

discipled and and it shows uh and which is why you kind of get this very common

20:57

stereotype of of of African poverty which by and large is is true like it it

21:03

really is a problem um and it is my firm belief that African poverty is not a

21:10

result of a lack of material resources African poverty is an issue of cultural

21:18

deficiency it boils down to the kinds of things that people believe and value

21:24

that uh are detrimental to uh to the culture uh to the way things um to the

21:30

way things are governed to in the ways things are governed there um and so we

21:35

still have our work cut out for us in that sense uh to really disciple the nation of Africa uh where the Bible is

21:43

not just a book that tells you how you can punch your ticket to heaven but where the Bible can now be wielded to

21:49

help people understand how they can be free and flourish in absolutely every

21:55

area of life um and I suppose growing up kind of seeing

22:01

these contrasts kind of seeing the degree to which uh or the say the consequences of the Bible having

22:09

influenced one area not another U it's there's a profound difference there um

22:14

and so cultures that have been influenced by the Bible tend to do significantly better than cultures that

22:22

have not been influenced by the Bible That's Vel manga's work the book that made your world he makes that absolutely

Struggles in Western Societies

22:29

very clear so so from your upbringing from your time in whether South Africa or Zambia can you think of a time when

22:37

you've seen the gospel come into a community or a church or a town and just completely reshape everything in front

22:44

of your eyes in a relatively short piece of uh uh span of time that's an excellent question one of the first

22:51

things that comes to mind for me is when our family was moving to South Africa my dad had it in mind that he would have to

23:00

be engaging with racists and in his mind he understood that was going to be his

23:05

mission field and I mean he he will tell you just numerous stories of the Triumph

23:11

of that the Triumph of the Gospel over people's minds and over people's hearts

23:17

and actually seeing the transformation there I suppose just even in the context in which we lived in um an all-white

23:24

church that would call a a a black minister to be their Pastor um would not

23:31

have been a very popular move um and yet they still went ahead with it and so even in that sense you see the power of

23:37

the Gospel in having transformed an entire church where their concerns were

23:43

less ethnic um and more about principle and character and

23:49

competence um and in that sense skin color didn't really uh factor into it um

23:56

and and so I could see the advance the gospel there um beyond that um I I've

24:02

also been involved uh with or at least previously with the African Christian University um in Zambia where

24:09

essentially we were teaching students a Christian worldview and it amazing to see people's

24:18

lives getting changed uh just by coming across what this Christian worldview is

24:24

um it transformed their entire lives and so you could really upfront see the power of the Gospel um in transforming

24:31

people in transforming in transforming churches and so this gospel really is a

24:36

potent thing um it's it's not just a a an intellectual exercise that has no

24:44

ramifications for the real world um this gospel has the capacity to turn worlds

24:50

upside down for the better um and um in many ways I've had a front row seat uh

24:56

to see that happen so as you've had that front row seat you've probably

25:01

encountered plenty of people that have never had the opportunity based an upbringing or circumstance to see that

25:07

transformation so I imagine there's probably a little bit of a culture Clash there where you're like guys I've seen

25:12

this fix things and people like I've never seen anything like that because they're living in the wake of the blessings of the transformation having

25:19

happened a long time ago absolutely I think that's very well said actually um that's absolutely the point I think

25:25

there's some people who uh take for granted what what what the ground that

25:31

they stand on um and and can't appreciate how it was put together um

25:38

and they've never seen transformation in a radical sort of way an extreme sort of

25:43

way an overt sort of way um and yet I'd say that their very existence uh the

25:49

very fact that they live in a place that has experience freedom and flourishing um is tells a story of its own um and

25:58

you know kind of fleshing out that point a little bit one of the things that has

26:04

pleasantly surprised me about my time in the United States is the degree to which

26:10

even the non-christians the pagans have been influenced by Christianity um it's

26:16

it's it's amazing to see uh pagans who have by and large a Christian culture um

26:23

in the wake of their hatred for god um they are working very hard to

26:30

throw off um what they've been given and even who they are uh and it it's sad to

26:37

see but it's it's just a profound Reckoning to me of of how deep this

26:42

Christian Heritage goes um and in contrast in Africa you get people who um

26:50

they're familiar with the name of Christ they're they're familiar with many Bible passages but it hasn't really

26:57

infiltrated the culture there um and it influences all kinds of things if you want very specific details one of the

27:04

things that I love most about the US is the fact that it has

27:09

sidewalks right and and that seems like such a small thing to someone who has

27:14

grown up with sidewalks as an ordinary occurrence um as an ordinary feature in

27:20

in in society and yet sidewalks actually uh communicate the value of human life

27:28

um you want to make sure that uh people are safe and you want to Value their lives and so you build these sidewalks

27:35

where they can walk safely um where where I'm coming from in Zambia I think

27:41

the majority of the populace uh move by means of of of their legs right like

27:49

their pedestrians that's that that's how they get around um and yet you don't see as many sidewalks that's not to say it

27:55

doesn't have any sidewalks whatsoever um but you'd be surprised to see just um

28:02

how many people have to compete with cars for the same space and so that's

28:07

just like one of those small things that shows you that there's a very different value system um at play here uh cultures

28:14

that have been influenced by Christianity tend to have a higher premium on or place a higher premium on

28:21

on on human life um than cultures that do not have that Christian influence um so yeah the the that

28:30

contrast is very is very profound in um in my mind um I might be going off on a

28:37

on a tangent here but um you know uh something else that a debate that I kind

28:42

of see happening around and it's a great debate uh this whole conversation around natural law uh there's a sense in which

28:49

I think conversations around natural law are very much a western privilege uh and

28:56

by that I just mean when you can already take things for granted and assume that people think a certain way natural law

29:03

sounds like a great argument um and by the way this is not me demonizing natural law um I I absolutely Embrace

29:10

natural law uh but in much of the world what they naturally perceive in

29:16

front of them won't lead them to the kind of conclusions that the Western mind would think um they would they

29:24

would only be able to assimilate certain Thoughts by having exposed to the word of God um and and that's why it's so

29:33

important to to appeal to that to that written word um Naturally Speaking In

29:41

Africa what you see is a lot of degeneracy um what you see is just

29:47

Carnage um and and if if if we took

29:52

natural law and the way other people apply it that's not enough to to tell people

29:58

what they ought to to be right um that that's something that I think only the written word um Can profoundly tell us

30:07

um and it it helps us make sense of the natural order for sure um but that's

30:13

that that's one of those very big differences I see in a first world country like the United States and the

30:21

third world specifically MH that's a that's a fascinating observation because

30:27

I've traveled quite extensively never to subsaharan Africa that's one of the major probably the major region of the

30:33

world that I haven't been to but you know a lot of these places around the world are very similar other country

30:39

other nations that I've been to Nations that will never develop economically right and when you talk about natural

30:45

law you know you talk about ordered affections and all that it's impossible for us to do that in America in 20125

30:53

without adopting a significant portion of the biblical worldview that we just take for

30:58

granted if you go to some of the places that you're talking about and then you say well let's talk about natural law

31:04

here you know right this would seem to be natural but the only standard you have to evaluate that there's something

31:11

unnatural about it comes from scripture yeah that's exactly it um the irony

31:16

being that um just what you're describing is that natural law in this case is actually a presupposed thought

31:24

it it still rests on presuppositions um no one arrives at natural

31:30

law by Reckoning with natural law there's there's a sense in which it's

31:35

it's revealed law written law that helps us make sense of natural law sure um and

31:41

so it's those presuppositions are are inescapable um and yeah you just you you

31:49

really do profoundly see that um in a world where people only rely on nature

31:57

often s because of sin people will resort to all kinds of Power plays which

32:03

is why much of the third world has also been steeped in things like Marxism it's ripe ground for Marxism because of that

32:11

um because that's kind of what they see as part of this natural order um but

32:17

God's written word gives us a framework to temper that sin it gives us a

32:23

framework to make sense of what human beings are for uh how human beings should be governed um what freedom is

32:30

what flourishing is um all of that um and that's why it's it's so important

32:36

and um there's also this direct correlation with you know third world countries are as destitute as they are

32:42

because of illiteracy um the the Western world was developed by literacy I think

32:48

back to someone like King Alfred uh who profoundly LED uh the the advance of

32:57

the Western mind um that that ultimately led to Western civilization becoming

33:04

what it is today and at the core of what he was was seeking to do was to educate people um teach them words um tell them

33:12

teach them the meaning of certain words um it's only as and when people are able

33:18

to deal with and comprehend written words that they can really effectively

33:23

live in the world the way God had intended them to live in this world um so yeah I I say written law in that

33:31

sense is inescapable it doesn't diminish natural law um but I think it helps

33:36

people make sense of what natural law is um an example I can give to this is

33:41

natural law will tell you that there's a difference between male and female but only a written word can tell you very

33:48

specifically how men ought to function and how women ought to function um Even

33:54

Adam in his perfect state had to had to be told how to function as a man um Eve

34:01

had to be taught what she was made for even in a perfect world um and so um

34:08

revealed law in that sense um is is inescapable um that's the stuff that

34:14

Civilization is is built upon and in some sense when you're for example in

Foundations of Natural Law

34:20

Africa anywhere and you're trying to bring the gospel into an area where they haven't been sufficiently evangelized

34:27

you're actually you're confronting a form of natural law It's like because they all Point around and say this is how it just works and

34:33

you have this book from somewhere else in the world that's telling me how things work no this is how it works right so that's the that's the

34:39

confrontation between between go the gospel and natural law just right there exactly yeah very well said that that

34:45

that's exactly it um yeah again like natural law can sometimes be the premise upon which

34:51

people can actually live according to the lust of their flesh right um if if that's how they want to define it it um

34:59

and so it's it's in that sense it's not enough um we certainly need need

35:05

something more yeah that was very well said so so growing up in a in a Christian household in a Christian

35:12

environment in a very anti-christian region of the world talk a little bit

35:17

about that I imagine you said that you've never really felt at home or you've always kind of been a traveler wherever you've gone something like that

35:24

so talk a little bit about that friction as well yeah that's that's an interesting question um I think in many

35:31

ways um my family just always stood out um my parents made decisions that were

35:38

not always very conventional especially when we when we arrived in Zambia uh for

35:44

example my parents were very devoted to giving us a a Christian education um in

35:52

that context the best way to do that these days is uh through a home education

35:58

and uh we were the only native Zambian family we knew at the time that was that

36:04

was doing that um and so that that certainly made us stand out um there

36:10

were ways that we lived that certainly appeared appeared odd uh in fact um I

36:16

can't tell you how many times people would call me um an Oreo um or a coconut

36:23

uh uh all right I was considered the white guy um among my peers because of

36:32

the way that I thought and and the way that I did things um so at that level like there's a sense in which we always

36:38

stood out that way um and and I must confess like it wasn't always comfortable it's not comfortable

36:44

to to never fit in it's not comfortable to always be a foreigner um and yet I

36:51

think that that's precisely What the Lord Has used to help me objectively

36:57

analyze culture and tether myself more to my identity in Christ and his kingdom

37:06

than than Earthly kingdoms and that's kind of been my focus even as uh I

37:11

engage with cultures that aren't anchored in Christianity is realizing

37:16

that the Lord placed me here because this is my mission field this is where I

37:22

have an opportunity to build his kingdom on Earth as it is in heaven um this is

37:28

where Christendom gets realized through me um and I I'd like to believe that the

37:35

Lord didn't necessarily tether me um to a very narrow view of culture and place

37:44

uh precisely for me to reckon with this idea of of Kingdom where the only place

37:50

the first time I felt like I truly belonged somewhere um is is in my

37:56

understanding of Christianity and Chom understanding I'm a citizen of the kingdom of Christ um that's what freed

38:02

me in many ways that's what enabled me to understand who I was um what my

38:07

purpose was in this world um how I should view culture um and and and and why I am

38:16

where I am um and that's for the building of uh of his eternal Kingdom um

38:23

and so I think that kind of approach really really helped a great deal um and so my goal at that point wasn't to

38:30

merely fit in um or to even live for the acceptance of others my goal uh was to

38:37

glorify the king of kings and establish his kingdom on Earth as it is in

38:44

heaven that's so interesting that you said that the the feeling of

38:49

displacement that you always had no matter where you grew up a lot of people would find that and I relate very much

38:55

to this like this I'm going to spend some time thinking about this when we're done but a lot of people would find that very alienating and they would be very

39:03

resentful of never feeling like they never quite fit in but it sounds like in your case God has redeemed that to give

39:09

you a certain flexibility when moving through cultures to not feel alienated to feel more like an explorer that

39:16

that's that's a very good way of putting it um so I feel more like an Explorer there's a sense in which I have this

39:22

ability to engage with different kinds of people from all over the world

39:28

um and and to engage with them in a in a real genuine sincere way um I have this

39:35

way of understanding them that I don't know if I would have if I was just Tethered to one specific Place uh while

39:42

at the same time while I can relate to all kinds of people it's apparent to me that I don't fit in completely in any of

39:50

those places or with any of those people um but here's the thing is for as long

39:56

as they're in Christ as I am um we have a lot more in common

40:02

than we would have with our respective kin um and so it is it is my firm belief

40:08

that that truth beauty and goodness transcend ethnic and National boundaries

40:13

right I I have much more in common with my brother or sister in Christ than I do

40:19

with my own kin right uh Christ's blood is thicker than human blood right and

40:26

people like to use that that phrase you know blood is thicker than water um and it is but Christ's blood is is thicker

40:33

than anything um that's the blood that essentially bought us um Christ owns us

40:39

now um we belong to him which is why you know think of 2 Corinthians 5:20 which

40:45

refers to us as ambassadors of Jesus Christ uh Matthew 5 refers to us as uh

40:51

the salt of the earth the light of the world um this is our new identity um and

40:59

this transcends any local barriers this transcends nationality and and let me

41:05

give a caveat her this is not an argument for a globalism of sorts not at all um uh Christ recognizes that idea of

41:14

nationhood right that's why he tells us in Matthew 28 to disciple the Nations

41:19

but I think it's important to make the distinction that the nationalism is not

41:26

the goal the Christendom is um I'd say the nationalism is the means to the

41:32

Christendom um I think we live in an age now where people think of it is the opposite people want to misuse religion

41:38

to realize their nationalism rather than the other way around in other words they

41:43

tether themselves more to their kin and their ethnicity than they do to Jesus Christ himself Jesus Christ and his

41:50

kingdom um and I think that's where things go wrong um and so there's real Freedom even with people like me who

41:58

have felt displaced for a very long time um I don't feel bothered by it anymore

42:04

because um I know who I belong to I know where I belong um I know what I'm for

42:10

and that enables me to not simply be a consumer of culture uh trying to place

42:16

myself in worldly categories um I think of myself as a culture Builder a kingdom

42:23

Builder um and that that that changes everything for me so I want to lean into

42:28

this a little bit so so growing up in Africa because you had black skin but

42:34

you had a Christian interior so they called you an Oreo a coconut things like

42:39

that okay right so so now here you here you show up in America at a very particular moment in reformed Christian

42:46

history right which we see it unfolding around us like wild every day and so now you you arrive specifically here at this

42:53

moment where you have a a Christian interior but you have a a black African

42:59

exterior and you're facing some of the same some of the same questions but in a

Ethnic Identity and Belonging

43:04

different way and did you see that coming I don't know run with that I let me tell you I did not see this coming um

43:12

not at all uh in fact here's the interesting thing being in America this is actually one of the first times I

43:19

have felt like I actually can fit in ethnically and can fit in culturally um

43:27

well just because in America there's a category for a black American um culturally speaking I'm a Christian I'm

43:33

Protestant I'm reformed uh that's the stuff that made this country what it is

43:39

um it it's that same belief system that anchors me um that's the same system

43:45

that built America and so in many ways I really do fit in I I understand the ethos of America uh and not in some

43:53

abstract distant way um that's how I'm determined to govern my life um uh I I believe in being a people a

44:03

nation under God right uh that's that's the principle and so as someone who

44:09

submits the lordship of Christ that way um I understand very fundamentally the

44:14

American experiment but then you're right I think now there's this weird thing happening

44:21

around us at the moment where people seem to be making a very big fuss on of on

44:30

ethnicity and and and what that means and there's all kind kinds of questions

44:35

about uh what nationhood is and um yeah

44:40

it's just honestly it's been an interesting experience for me to just figure this out watch the conversation

44:47

hear hear what people have to say um but it it it occurs to me will that there's

44:54

many people who I think are experiencing an identity crisis um in many ways I think it

45:02

started with Marx right and and we're still seeing

45:08

the consequences of that um there is really a l sense of place but also with

45:14

Marx Marx gave or provided it's mostly Marx's followers who did this but they

45:21

offered the world new categories through which we should see life um Darwin I

45:27

think also contributed to this where we see ourselves more as Tethered to our

45:33

melanin levels you know uh than than being made

45:39

in the image of God um and now we think of ourselves and primarily like on terms of our melanin

45:46

levels where we're black and we're white um you know um which is a weird way to

45:53

view the world uh and sure I think the onslaught of global ISM hasn't helped um

45:59

all this stuff just hasn't helped and now I think the world is in this Tail Spin of you know people just don't know

46:04

who they are um they don't have an identity um and now when they think of

46:10

identity they think of identity as a means through which they can gain power kind of goes back to the whole Marxist

46:16

thing and so it becomes this elaborate power play of sorts which is which is

46:21

quite unfortunate and so I think we're seeing that kind of restlessness and whe whether it's people

46:27

who buy into critical race Theory um and try to tether themselves to uh a certain

46:34

skin color and trying to demonize whiteness whatever that is or on the other side where you have uh you know

46:42

these sort of ethn nationalists white supremacists um who who want to pretty

46:48

much do exactly the same thing I don't think they realize that they are em bibing the like

46:55

Marxist Dogma the that's those are the categories they use to view themselves

47:00

and all they've done is just rearranged furniture on the same sinking deck right

47:05

that's it uh which is why I mean people might try to demonize the term but I

47:11

think woke right is a very actt term in terms of describing uh the present moment that we're are like there are

47:18

people who have emed the the foundational principles of wokeness and

47:25

just rearranged the furniture um so while critical race Theory posits

47:32

this idea of a black supremacist black Supremacy um you've got this woke right

47:38

that's you know um em bibing thought on white supremacy uh which is very

47:44

dehumanizing even for themselves um I think in in in man's attempts to think

47:49

of himself more than he ought to he actually ends up dehumanizing himself uh

47:54

where he thinks of himself more in terms of skin color than being than a creature

47:59

who is made in the image of God um and yeah it's a weird moment to be in uh to

48:05

say the least that's a that's a great observation that you made that people are thinking of themselves in terms of

48:12

skin color and how dehumanizing that is this idea that who you are will forever be defined by

48:21

something external about you about you in a in a way that can be quite restrictive right in the in the sense

48:27

like well I don't like this culture that I'm involved in and I would like to go participate in another culture but

48:33

you're telling me that this these superficial things will Define me forever now you can take that argument

48:39

too far right obviously there there's a ditch on that side of the road but the idea that people are are restricting

48:44

themselves into these very narrow cultural definitions with no real Firm Foundation underneath them at all and

48:51

saying No this is who I am it's like well what if your life calls you to be more than that will you strain yourself

48:57

to this you know what if Christ calls you to be more than that yeah yeah yeah that that's exactly it um again I think

49:04

chaos ensues when we tether ourselves away from Christ uh when when we employ

49:10

categories through which we view the world that are not anchored um in him or

49:16

his word um that's when everything goes arai I think Darwin is to blame for a

49:22

lot of this in that yeah uh he

49:28

in his notion of you know the Origin of Species that's how people kind of view

49:33

themselves today um I don't like to use the word race as as it relates to

49:39

ethnicity because I believe there's one human race um with multiple ethnicities

49:44

um within that human race but because of someone like Darwin we've been trained

49:51

and conditioned to think of ourselves um in in categories that are

49:57

antithetical to reality um and and our greater Folly is

50:03

that we call that science you know um and and that's uh

50:10

that's truly tragic it's it's a dishonest science it's a it's a science that has been um that has a false

50:18

philosophy imposed on it um its presuppositions are fundamentally flawed

50:24

there's a sense in which what Darwin was trying to do was to make sense of a

50:29

world where God does not reside um which point we're just left with

50:37

um creatures who are just kind of playing it out for whoever can outs

50:43

survive the next uh you know and and and that's tragic again that's fundamentally

50:49

dehumanizing um and from what I actually like if you read history any

50:55

civilization that has employed this way of thinking has sought to destroy itself

51:00

has essentially shut itself in the foot there is no Society on Earth that has

51:06

thrived from this sort of darwinian supremacist approach to thinking about

51:13

uh human beings um any society that has understood what the image of God is and

51:21

tethering themselves to the identity in Christ more those are the societies that have flowed

51:27

and so even as people might be concerned for the West because things like Dei

51:33

have taken root and all of that those are real problems but the solution is not to resort to a white supremacism or

51:41

a black supremacism or whatever ethnic supremacism um is to return to the

51:46

principles of of of Christianity the principles of the Bible That's What enables a people to to truly flourish

51:54

because it calls you to die to yourself it caus you to die yourself yeah very well said exactly um and I think that's

52:01

actually part of what's what what civility is um civility cannot be

52:07

realized without self-restraint um and self-restraint that just as you put it is a dying to

52:14

yourself a dying to your impulses dying to uh to your flesh um and conforming

52:21

your mind and your affection and your will toward that which pleases Jus God

52:27

that's how civilization is is foundationally formed so this is great

52:33

this this gets to a question I kind of wanted to ask so so you have this uh place within you that is able to stand

52:39

back and observe cultures from sort of a remove sort of as a result of God's configuration of you and your upbringing

52:45

so so now here you are you you're moving from Zambia to the United States prior to the 2024 election which is I think I

52:53

think it's pretty clear this is a sea change moment in American history at least in the recent in recent times who

52:58

knows the long term and so you're so you're you jump from Africa subsaharian Africa right into the middle of this

53:05

enormous shift in America that would be going on anyway meanwhile within the reform World there are some pretty big

53:11

things that are happening that are that are going on and you're in Moscow Idaho

53:16

and so and so I I I don't even know where to begin with that but I'm I'm interested your thoughts maybe at all

53:22

three of those layers of resolution yeah I mean it it it is a crazy time I I bet

53:28

maybe one day I'll look back on this and be like wow that's the kind of environment we move like it it it's what

53:34

was I thinking what was I thinking but honestly it's been fun to kind of have like this front row seat to see

53:39

everything unfold yeah um I mean when we moved here it was just a few weeks after

53:45

Trump was was uh was shot at you know the attempted assassination was already

53:50

you were in progress of moving when that was like oh my good yeah yeah I remember like literally I was putting stuff in a

53:56

suitcase when I just see this thing pop up on my Twitter and and I show my wife

54:02

and I'm like they're trying to take him out um and so you know we're moving to

54:08

America uh kind of in this situation where like there was this thick fog you

54:15

know um that really the left like leftists had really created um there was

54:22

not much optimism from conservatives although Trump was starting to pick up some

54:27

steam um a lot of people predicted that

54:33

um the left would steal the election MH you know um there were all kinds of that

54:38

that's kind of what people expected because it just seemed like the claws of the left were really sunk in and then

54:46

November comes around and Trump wins this resounding Victory

54:54

and all of a sudden there's this ship um a very real shift in in hindsight you

55:01

kind of see that there's probably a much longer buildup to that but clearly a lot of people were fed up with where things

55:06

were now I think the upside of it has just been amazing um I don't know about

55:12

you will but I am not tired of winning and I feel like uh it's just it's just

55:17

great to see everything that's going on um it's great to see uh Trump cleaning

55:24

house um which I think this is this is going to go down as one of the most important moments in American history

55:32

mhm um but it's been great to see that unfold and yet at the same time I think

55:38

that this Trump win has also emboldened many people in expressing their

55:46

Folly you know um and and like I mean the whole conversation around this ethn

55:52

nationalism in the pre-trump era it was happening but not in the way it's happening now I

55:59

think there's a lot of people have been have been bolded by um by Trump's win

56:05

and this is not to blame Trump at all I'm a trump guy you know um um this is

56:10

just to say that I think it has created this moment where all of people's fears

56:17

um are finally sort of alleviated and now they have this freedom to just say

56:24

what they want um and some people have used that very well uh some people

56:29

haven't used that very well um it's been disappointing for me to see certain

56:34

quarters of our reformed Camp um embibe

56:40

ideas there's no cute way to say this but inbi ideas that in the past have

56:46

incited genocides you know um facts yeah like it really that that's what it is

56:52

once once you go on this ethnocentric ethn nationalism thing that incites genocides M um but of

56:59

course people don't have categories for that because they're they're still thinking in terms of black and white or

57:05

Jewish and white I don't know Boomer and Millennial or whatever exactly um but

57:10

I'll tell you that even within uh African tribes there's a lot of ethnic

57:15

animosity at that level you know Africa has over 3,000 ethnicities uh there's

57:21

Tribal wars multiple Tribal wars that happen between many of those tribes um

57:26

because of this ethnic vain Glory or ethnic malice um and when you look at

57:32

the rhetoric that incites any kind of genocide anywhere

57:37

around the world this is what it sounds like and I'll also say that these genocides are often enabled by a church

57:44

that is complicit in the rhetoric or just silent in the wake of this kind of

57:49

rhetoric um and so if we don't address this sooner rather than later I fear

57:56

that we might see some pretty dark things happen I'm hoping we can turn the corner on this pretty quickly um we

58:03

should remain optimistic about that uh but it's certainly been a been a very concerning thing for me to to watch and

58:11

um sometimes I just haven't known what to say honestly speaking um but yeah

58:16

there's there's much to be concerned about I agree I agree I I'm I'm less concerned about a a widespread American

58:24

push towards something like that I think Americans are largely quite lazy and and quite comfortable and and I don't I

58:30

don't see them developing a massive amount of ethnic animus leading to camps

58:36

or genocide or anything like that but I definitely do see moves within churches

58:41

that have very weak spiritual immune systems being susceptible to these ideas

58:46

radicalizing and then being a vector for the disease I do I do see that being a very serious threat specifically

58:53

specifically to the body of Christ I don't know that these ideas have purchased at a larger American cultural

58:58

level maybe but clearly within the body of Christ there's there's a there's an infection that has Spread Way Too Far

59:06

yeah exactly and I think um it's interesting what one of the things that I like to speak about a lot

59:12

especially these days is the potency of the church in discipling the Nations um

59:17

I believe that uh in the wake of Christ's Victory the church is very

59:25

powerful one way I can illustrate this is by saying that the cowardice of the church

59:30

is more potent than the courage of devils right like we are the ones who disciple the Nations into chaos you know

59:39

um we are the ones who have allowed the Carnage to happen and so when when our

59:45

own pulpits are compromised you can be sure that Society will be compromised right like the world

59:52

can try its worst Devils can try their worst uh but for as as long as the church is doing what it's supposed to be

59:58

doing Devils have no power they they really can't do anything right um now we

1:00:04

should understand that and say yes and amen and uh cease to uh utilize the

1:00:10

moment that we've been given but at the same time we should also be sober and

1:00:16

reckon with the fact that okay um as the church then we have a real

1:00:22

responsibility in in the chaos that we see around us today we're the ones either through our

1:00:29

compliance or silence or apathy we're the ones who are responsible

1:00:35

for the world being as chaotic as it is today for our Nations being as chaotic as they are today um and if we don't

1:00:42

reckon with that um I think there there's real problems there and it's funny that um I think that just it it

1:00:51

reveals our own unbelief we don't know the power that we've been given um we

1:00:56

don't know who we are and because we don't know who we are we can't shape the

1:01:02

world the way we ought to and a lot of the conversation that I'm seeing even in

1:01:08

reformed circles around ethnicity and all that um is a display of unbelief for

1:01:14

me and it's the kind of unbelief that is of no good uh to nations of no good even

1:01:22

to the kin that people say that they're trying to fight fight for right uh we lose our potency to be of good effect to

1:01:30

them when we buy into the world's ideologies and we should always be concerned will

1:01:38

when quarters of the world can Champion or Champion what the church is saying

1:01:44

right and when there's no distinguishable distinction between the

1:01:51

church and the world it's not because it's rarely I say it's never because the

1:01:57

world is becoming christianized it's usually because we're bowing down to the

1:02:02

same Idols as the world um and and and that's why we've lost our ability to

1:02:08

really influence um so yeah I think these are some thoughts that we need to

1:02:14

reckon with very U very seriously so I want to I want to check something out

Spiritual Responsibility and Church

1:02:19

with you and and see and see if I my read on this is correct so I would imagine that growing up in in Africa you

1:02:26

feel spe specifically being Evangelical Christian Reformed Protestant in Africa

1:02:31

you would feel say a high degree of spiritual pressure almost being like in a mission field you walk outside your

1:02:38

front door and you are in the mission field this is not a Christian environment by any stretch of the

1:02:43

imagination so you recognize in that environment that you have to be perhaps a bit more disciplined and focused to

1:02:49

model Christ and also just protect your own spiritual Integrity absolutely I'd imagine coming to the United States you

1:02:56

see a great deal more spiritual passivity where people have gone very slack because they're not able to

1:03:03

recognize uh to to recognize that now that the mission field is all around them like this is not a Christian Nation

1:03:09

anymore but they haven't paid attention to that so they've kind of gone a bit a bit limp would would would that

1:03:15

accurately reflect some some of the things that you've experienced definitely um I I would say in in Africa

1:03:22

there's a sense in which um yeah it felt like were starting from Ground Zero um

1:03:28

we we were trying to build a Christian culture from scratch we had no Christian

1:03:34

Heritage to try to recover um this is when efforts to establish any kind of

1:03:39

Christian Heritage is beginning there um and so in that sense you're right like it's kind of in

1:03:47

your face it's driving out your gate and expecting some corrupt police officer to

1:03:54

jump out of nowhere and and solicit bribes right and that's a very real thing um uh it's one of the things I

1:04:01

don't miss honestly um are just corrupt policemen um it's shocking this is like

1:04:07

being here and seeing just um just yeah policing here is so different uh it's

1:04:14

it's incredible um but but seeing that and then contrasting it to a place like

1:04:19

this where there is just all this beauty and there is this rich Christian

1:04:25

Heritage um and it does seem to me that like there are real spiritual battles

1:04:31

happening here within the church I'd even say some of the skirmishes that happen between brethren in America can

1:04:40

only make devil smile um I can't imagine that some of these

1:04:45

debates um are perplexing God's enemies I think they're quite delighted that there's that there's this much uh

1:04:53

fragmentation um among brothers who I think should be joining arms together um

1:05:00

but I think that's the point um we are our our potency is undeniable which is

1:05:07

why I think God's enemies try to weaken us within our own ranks um put us to sleep effectively um make us think that

1:05:16

the trivial um is really foundational and and distract us from

1:05:21

actually dealing with the foundational things and making the foundational things seem trivial right like there's

1:05:28

there's that switch there and um and that's a real problem and so because we don't have our own house and order here

1:05:35

um in America in the west it's hard for us to be of real influence to to the

1:05:42

world around us um and I think what I've seen is a church that seems to have

1:05:48

forgotten how to really engage um I think a lot of Christians what I've seen

1:05:54

at least this is not sure for for everyone a lot of Christians live in

1:05:59

silos um and and by that I just mean one of the ways I've seen it expressed is on

1:06:05

Twitter people will say all kinds of all kinds of things um that at best get a

1:06:11

lot of high fives from people who already agree with them um but they're not really engaging

1:06:19

with the world um they're not really engaging with the other side that really needs to hear what needs to be said

1:06:26

um like there is no salt there um it's not really there and because of that

1:06:32

yeah it's just there's there's an impotence that I see now for sure I think Moscow is a very unique place

1:06:39

anywhere in the world where um that sort of Engagement is just in our faces um we

1:06:46

rub shoulders with god-hating people every single day um when people think of

1:06:52

Moscow usually they think of just this nice sanitized Christian Town yeah they need to come here and see I you've seen

1:06:59

it will um and it's a real thing um but by and large um I think as the church we

1:07:06

have lost our bite here um we have been

1:07:11

distracted and I think there's something very we need to recover our Orthodoxy interestingly

1:07:19

enough and um on that basis get back into being a good influence to the

1:07:26

culture around us when you speak to uh friends and family members back in Zambia what what

Family's Perspective on U.S.

1:07:33

do you say to them about your experience here I guess in all the Realms we talking about socially cultural they must have so many questions about Trump

1:07:40

and and that whole wave like what what do you what do what do you even begin to say to them yeah that's a good question

1:07:47

uh to be fair some of them are are are very aware of everything that's going on so there's there's not much I could tell

1:07:54

them that they don't know already uh social media in that sense is very powerful uh that said it's this will

1:08:01

interest many Americans much of the rest of the world aren't acquainted with American

1:08:09

conservatism um in Africa yes correct yeah in Africa for example on on cable

1:08:15

news networks what people have access to as far as American news media goes is

1:08:22

CNN y um and I'll turn to Western Outlet would be the BBC um in other words if

1:08:29

you want to get any sort of conservative commentary you have to know where to look you could find that on the internet

1:08:35

but you actually have to have a category for that and know where to look um and

1:08:42

so because of that um I I do come across a contingent of people

1:08:48

who because of everything they're seeing they think that this current Trump

1:08:53

presidency uh is is uh is a

1:08:59

failure over like they don't have a category that that this is what winning

1:09:04

looks like um that's not what they're being told um they're being told that

1:09:10

Trump is trying to eliminate Africa and that's why he's cut off us Aid stuff uh

1:09:16

that's you know like that's the way the conversation is Being Framed um and so

1:09:22

yeah I do get a lot of people ask me questions like okay so what is it really like on the ground there um even just is

1:09:27

it tougher to be a black person in Trump's presidency you know just um this

1:09:33

Mega country this is Maga country um of course they're really shocked when they saw photos of me with a Maga hat on like

1:09:41

how they don't have a category for that how could you support this guy good um so yeah it is interesting to sort of

1:09:49

give people um a real picture of uh of what's going on here um because a lot of

1:09:55

people don't get the full picture out there uh it's interesting I think Africa in that sense is actually even better

1:10:01

than Europe uh they parts of Germany parts of Europe that don't get access to

1:10:07

anything for example um I know there are some parts of the world Europe included

1:10:13

that can't access uh new St Andrews College's website oh wow right like like

1:10:18

that kind of media gets censored out you know um so it's it's yeah this is a real

1:10:26

war that's being fought fought out there um which by the way and I know I'm kind

1:10:31

of going on a bit of a tangent here but when you when you when you see all that propaganda pushed in the world outside

1:10:39

America in the third world you understand why the Democrats love open

1:10:45

borders because if they can get more of those people to come in these people have already drank the

1:10:52

Kool-Aid on Marxism uh on on big government um on on all that stuff right

1:11:00

um I think that's the play um at least that's my theory behind it um so so yeah

1:11:07

it's it's it's interesting to have to communicate what what's actually happening on the ground here uh to an

1:11:14

audience there uh but yeah but to my my circle of friends and family um there's

1:11:21

uh there's less of that they they're pretty in tune with what going on now as

1:11:27

I recall you traveled here with your family I remember when you and I met at Grace agenda you had a stroller I

1:11:32

believe and I think you had I think you had at least one or two other kids orbiting okay yeah yeah so how how old

1:11:38

how old are your kids yeah so we've got three kids our oldest is is four he'll be five soon and then we've got a little

1:11:45

girl who is turning three uh very soon as well and then we have a one-year-old so uh we're still very much in uh in the

1:11:53

little years but yeah it's been it's been a lot of fun have there been any lessons I I guess your kids are probably

1:12:00

too young to fully understand what's going on although they probably look around and be like what are all these white people right all of a sudden but

1:12:07

like what lessons have you been have you tried to impart to them what lessons what lessons would you like to impart to

1:12:13

them over the long term about this experience and how long will you be here that's an excellent question will um yes

1:12:20

I think you're right this is this is I mean okay so to be fair in Zambia they did have white friends you know um but

1:12:28

it's the first time that they have observed other people recognizing the

1:12:33

difference um so I remember not too long ago my son um came to us and was like

1:12:40

why why do they call me Brown you know like why are those people calling me Brown um and like now he realizes that

1:12:47

other people see him as a little different I want to say they're not being malicious at all that's just other

1:12:53

kids realizing ah okay a brown looking kid you know like it's it's um in this

1:13:00

in this part of the us I think that's it's still not as common there's there's

1:13:06

a lot more ethnic diversity here than people may realize but um still by and

1:13:11

large um it's not a it's not a common thing um so there's a sense in which um

1:13:18

we use those as good opportunities to uh to teach them what it means to be in the image of God teach them even just the

1:13:25

basics of how they should think of themselves and other people um with that

1:13:31

and you asked me about some of the long-term things we're trying to teach them is one to tether themselves more to

1:13:37

Christ and his church and his Covenant Community um more than you know

1:13:44

distinctions that the world might try to impose um and so that's something we emphasize we we emphasize and tell them

1:13:52

these are our people um those who worship God those who submit to Christ's

1:13:57

lordship these are our people and this is how we live in Covenant Community with these people um and so for that

1:14:05

reason my kids don't feel like they're they're different uh they have assimilated very

1:14:11

well and and in many ways we uh we fit right in um so yeah those those are some

1:14:17

of the principles that we that we try to give them uh in terms of how long we're going to be here for we don't know at

1:14:24

this Point there's definitely more questions than answers around that um but while we're here we want

1:14:30

to we want to serve we want to build up Christ's Kingdom right here in America

1:14:37

uh we want to make America great again and and and and we definitely think that

1:14:43

this is such a great opportunity to be part of um just this season in America's

1:14:51

history yeah um and and to be a part of this in some way is is pretty unique um

1:14:57

and we really want to do our best to uh to give as much to this to this great

1:15:03

country yeah arriving here a month or so after the Trump assassination attempt

1:15:09

yeah being here in the runup to the election the the win of the election and then the completely insane response both

1:15:16

for good and for bad after as as I can't imagine being it here at a more pivotal

1:15:22

time in in recent history it's a it's a real moment to be in the states so let's

1:15:27

talk about your show for a little a minute we've been going for a while so talk a little bit about of flames and crowns some of the guests you've had on

1:15:34

and the vision for the show yeah that's good yeah so of flames and crowns in many ways that's like it's a fun name um

Podcast Vision and Guests

1:15:41

and and it's it's supposed to communicate something about battle and conquest and uh and Triumph but all of

1:15:48

it also resting under the lordship of of Jesus Christ um and so we have um we

1:15:56

have a lot of fun with that and we we kind of think of ourselves as a metaphorical Battleship um at least

1:16:03

that's what the show is and really the show is centered around culture and and how to be Shapers of distinctly

1:16:11

Christian cultures um I think there's a lot of content out there that has done a

1:16:16

very good job at diagnosing culture uh but I don't think we're we're hearing

1:16:22

enough about how to actually build culture even in the wake of the chaos um

1:16:27

and so that's what I'm trying to bring uh bring to the table with this show and really trying to talk to all kinds of

1:16:34

guests yourself included uh people who have some idea of uh of how to

1:16:42

practically uh build culture um and I think new St Andrews college is such a

1:16:48

unique initiative um in my opinion I don't think there's an an a higher

1:16:54

education institution anywhere around the world that is doing what we're doing

1:17:00

um and uh we have incredible people here and part of what I'm trying to do as

1:17:06

well is amplify their voice uh with this as well and show them that actually we

1:17:12

have something quite profound to offer as far as building culture goes uh so

1:17:18

it's been it's been fun to to build up um I'm excited about just what lies ahead as well there's some exciting

1:17:25

conversations and exciting initiatives that uh are in the works and I'm I'm really excited to unfold all of that but

1:17:32

that's that's the flames and crowns that's what we're trying to achieve here was this something was this an idea that

1:17:38

you had was this an idea that NSA had and you were the guy for the job was this something that kind of came about

1:17:43

organically by the way it's a great show the conversations the set the entire thing just really clicks into place and

1:17:49

it's like they just started doing this kind of way so it's it's a it's a great show and a great Pres presentation sure

1:17:56

thank you will I really appreciate that it's been it's been a lot of fun putting together uh honestly will I I work

1:18:03

alongside some of the best people um in in a very short space of time these have

1:18:10

become some of my really close friends in life and um it's been exciting to put

1:18:15

this together so everything you see in terms of the aesthetic and the intentionality is is not just me it's

1:18:23

there's there's a whole team behind it um the idea of a podcast is was an idea

1:18:29

I wanted to come in here and um see if I if we could just improve content

1:18:35

creation and put our face out there uh a little bit more amplify our voice a

1:18:40

little more um and so I thought something like a show would uh would

1:18:46

begin to to do that um and it's been it's been a lot of fun to put together

1:18:51

and uh NSA have been so gracious to me um in in terms of just allowing me room

1:18:58

to do my thing and to just take responsibility for this and uh all the

1:19:03

other assignments that um they've entrusted to me um and it's been it's

1:19:08

been very fruitful and rewarding already so I'm grateful for that so just real quick can you talk about a couple of

1:19:14

your favorite moments for the show and you don't have to mention any you don't have to mention my interview don't feel no pressure but I just like I'm I'm

1:19:20

curious from your experience as a host you've done I want to say you've done six or eight episodes maybe 10 at this

1:19:26

point yeah actually um I think this week we're releasing our 14th oh wow okay so

1:19:31

oh yeah like we're going along I think you were I think the third interview that we did if I'm not mistaken yeah it

1:19:38

was it was a ton of fun honestly ours was really good um as far as viral

1:19:44

content goes um yeah you know uh that was a lot of

1:19:49

fun man uh so honestly it is up there as one of my favorites um other notable

1:19:55

conversations would be with Doug uh Doug is just fantastic to speak to uh Vishal

1:20:01

mongal um just I mean he's like a he's like an encyclopedia you know um and

1:20:08

just with so much to say and profound things to say um I really enjoyed that

1:20:14

um uh I've enjoyed several um I think last week we just released one with Ben

1:20:20

Merkel um that was a lot of fun Scott Allen was one um we did uh earlier in in

1:20:27

January very insightful talking about literacy I thought that was very powerful um yeah

1:20:35

honestly I'm really blessed to have had the quality of conversation um on on the

1:20:41

show as we've had and it's been it's been outstanding um so we've actually

1:20:46

wrapped up filming for the first season actually W um and we're in the works

1:20:53

we're working on something very special uh for the summer um I will keep those like that card close to my chest for now

1:20:59

of course uh but it's going to be super exciting stuff um before we get into another season of flames and crowns well

1:21:07

I'm very excited for that and you you guys definitely put a lot of heart a lot of energy a lot of effort and a lot of

1:21:13

yourself into it as well and I think right you know your your Insight as an interviewer and your Insight as a man

1:21:19

based on your life history and experience it really shines forth in in the people that you talk to in the conversation you have I appreciate that

1:21:26

will yeah and thank you brother I mean you've been uh you've been a great encouragement to me uh it's it's been

1:21:33

fun just building a friendship with you as well and it in many ways I I feel like I have yet another brother in the

1:21:40

trenches as we you know try to build Christ's kingdom here and it's been it's

1:21:45

been incredible so thank you brother thank you man I feel the same well this has been wonderful I know you've got a a

1:21:51

day at work to get back to but just real quick where would you like to send people to find out more about you and what you do sure um if you just look up

1:21:59

my name on all the big social media platforms lenux calunga you'll find me on Twitter you'll find me on Instagram

1:22:06

um I think those two predominantly Facebook too um some of my writing um I

1:22:12

publish on substack so lenux kong. substack

1:22:22

docomo thank you so much for this thank you for for sharing your story and your your heart with me in the audience and I

1:22:27

look forward to our future conversations now thank you will God bless you brother [Music]