Show Notes
In today's episode I interviewed Dr. David Edgington, the author of the outstanding book "The Abusive Wife."
But he proposes that the term "abusive" isn't accurate. A biblical term is "reviling", which he says, “Entails using speech as a non-contact weapon against another person.”
Within the Christian church, pastors have overlooked this form of abuse of men in their rush to apologize for the past, continuing a trend that began long ago, succumbing to the idea that women are eternal victims and that every knee must bow to their feelings.
But David wrote his book 8 years ago. So today it's hard not to call Dr. Edgington just a little bit prophetic, and quite a bit more than heroic.
Me and Dr. Edgington Discussed:
• His excellent book "The Abusive Wife"
• How to Recognize a Reviled Husband
• Wokeness and Christianity
• Women and Their Anger
• The Danger of the Secular Courts
• How Abuse Can Sanctify Us
• Why Women's Feelings Are NOT Sovereign.
Show Notes
In today's episode I interviewed Dr. David Edgington, the author of the outstanding book "The Abusive Wife."
But he proposes that the term "abusive" isn't accurate. A biblical term is "reviling", which he says, “Entails using speech as a non-contact weapon against another person.”
Within the Christian church, pastors have overlooked this form of abuse of men in their rush to apologize for the past, continuing a trend that began long ago, succumbing to the idea that women are eternal victims and that every knee must bow to their feelings.
But David wrote his book 8 years ago. So today it's hard not to call Dr. Edgington just a little bit prophetic, and quite a bit more than heroic.
Me and Dr. Edgington Discussed:
• His excellent book "The Abusive Wife"
• How to Recognize a Reviled Husband
• Wokeness and Christianity
• Women and Their Anger
• The Danger of the Secular Courts
• How Abuse Can Sanctify Us
• Why Women's Feelings Are NOT Sovereign.
Show Notes
In today's episode I interviewed Dr. David Edgington, the author of the outstanding book "The Abusive Wife."
But he proposes that the term "abusive" isn't accurate. A biblical term is "reviling", which he says, “Entails using speech as a non-contact weapon against another person.”
Within the Christian church, pastors have overlooked this form of abuse of men in their rush to apologize for the past, continuing a trend that began long ago, succumbing to the idea that women are eternal victims and that every knee must bow to their feelings.
But David wrote his book 8 years ago. So today it's hard not to call Dr. Edgington just a little bit prophetic, and quite a bit more than heroic.
Me and Dr. Edgington Discussed:
• His excellent book "The Abusive Wife"
• How to Recognize a Reviled Husband
• Wokeness and Christianity
• Women and Their Anger
• The Danger of the Secular Courts
• How Abuse Can Sanctify Us
• Why Women's Feelings Are NOT Sovereign.
Show Notes
In today's episode I interviewed Dr. David Edgington, the author of the outstanding book "The Abusive Wife."
But he proposes that the term "abusive" isn't accurate. A biblical term is "reviling", which he says, “Entails using speech as a non-contact weapon against another person.”
Within the Christian church, pastors have overlooked this form of abuse of men in their rush to apologize for the past, continuing a trend that began long ago, succumbing to the idea that women are eternal victims and that every knee must bow to their feelings.
But David wrote his book 8 years ago. So today it's hard not to call Dr. Edgington just a little bit prophetic, and quite a bit more than heroic.
Me and Dr. Edgington Discussed:
• His excellent book "The Abusive Wife"
• How to Recognize a Reviled Husband
• Wokeness and Christianity
• Women and Their Anger
• The Danger of the Secular Courts
• How Abuse Can Sanctify Us
• Why Women's Feelings Are NOT Sovereign.
Guest's Links
CONNECT WITH DAVID: https://CompassionateCounselors.com
"The Abusive Wife" on Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Abusive-Wife-M...
Guest's Links
CONNECT WITH DAVID: https://CompassionateCounselors.com
"The Abusive Wife" on Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Abusive-Wife-M...
Guest's Links
CONNECT WITH DAVID: https://CompassionateCounselors.com
"The Abusive Wife" on Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Abusive-Wife-M...
Guest's Links
CONNECT WITH DAVID: https://CompassionateCounselors.com
"The Abusive Wife" on Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Abusive-Wife-M...
Transcript
0:00
so if you're not Discerning and thinking this through you're just going to rush to her defense and you're automatically
0:05
going to start condemning the man this is what happens and the man never gets an opportunity to
0:11
defend himself to say this is what's going on you know let me explain you know
0:17
and anything the man does to try to explain the situation now you're being defensive now you're being prideful and
0:24
you know you're obviously uh you know so upset about this and look at how mad you're getting she's probably right
0:31
about you in fact she is right about you so it just kind of snowballs from there
Introduction
0:42
my guest this week is Dr David Edgington and he's the author of the outstanding book The abusive wife but he proposes
0:49
that the term abusive while familiar isn't exactly accurate a better more biblical term is reviling which he says
0:56
quote focuses on the verbal aspect of mistreatment of others it entails using
1:01
speech as a non-contact weapon against another person to revile is to strike another person it is speech that is
1:08
Harsh and arrogant not only in tone but also in content in substance reviling speech often resorts to mocking ridicule
1:16
and insulting language within the Christian church in recent Generations pastors have specifically overlooked
1:22
this form of abuse of men in their rush to apologize for perceived wrongs of the past does this sound familiar it's not
1:29
hard to connect the dots that as pastors churches and denominations bend the need
1:34
to woke and rainbow Flags they're actually continuing a trend that began long ago succumbing to what I call the
1:41
feminist the apology that women are Eternal victims and every knee must bow to their Almighty feelings now here's
1:49
the thing David wrote his book eight years ago having been in countless biblical or new fetic counseling
1:54
sessions and seen that the husband and wife seem to be playing by different sets of rules the man imperfect as all
2:01
men are but kind accommodating and loving the woman meanwhile is Harsh controlling and unrepentant she refuses
2:09
to be held to the biblical standard of not just submissiveness but of graciousness or even kindness to the man
2:15
she married she Rebels against him in word tone and posture I've seen this in my own mentorship practice and David's
2:21
book gave me better language to talk about it now eight years after the publication of the book as American
2:27
society is being consumed in a feminist-driven conflagration it's hard not to call Dr Edgington just a little
2:34
bit prophetic and quite a bit more than heroic which is why I'm honored to have David on my podcast today not only is he
2:41
a man of great moral courage having called attention to the real world impact of these behaviors for almost a
2:47
decade he also counsels couples on how to come out of this way of being he supports men and how to survive or even
2:53
be Sanctified by it and he helps men to recover from women who have abused them left and worse and praise God there are
3:00
voices like David's calling out from the Wilderness with gentleness firmness and
3:05
an unyielding commitment to the word of God preparing the way for the great Reckoning with truth that must come
3:11
before the great reconciliation in our conversation David and I discussed his excellent book The abusive wife how to
3:18
recognize a reviled husband wokeness and Christianity women and their anger the
3:24
danger of the secular courts how abuse can sanctify us and why women's feelings
3:29
are not sovereign if you enjoy the Renaissance of men podcast thank you please like this video share it and
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subscribe plus leave a comment down below letting us know if you think the image of the reviling wife it's a little
3:41
bit too close to home the Renaissance of men podcast is proudly sponsored by Reformation coffee Pastor Brandon
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lifetime streaming license there you can watch more than seven hours of content that'll help women renew their vision
4:46
for Godly femininity and please welcome this week's guest on the podcast the founder of compassionate counselors and
4:52
the author of The abusive wife Dr David Edgington David thanks so much for joining me on the podcast
Interview Start
4:59
great to be here will thanks so much for inviting me well I mean it's it's a as we discussed
5:04
it's a long chain of friends that led us here today starting with a feminine not feminist and my buddies Kevin and and
5:10
Richie so um it's a it's a real blessing to have this conversation because you know I have your book here the abusive
5:16
the abusive wife which I want to get into but you're talking about a subject that many men and many women are really
5:22
waking up to but you've been talking about it for a while so kind of leading the way is like a voice crying in the
5:29
wilderness so maybe we can get started with like what inspired you to write the book when did you write the book what's
5:34
the story behind it well first of all the um
5:40
I did a search trying to find biblically oriented books on this because I kept running into it and counseling I'm a
5:46
full-time new fedic counselor I still like the word new fetic rather than just biblical because it says something a
5:53
little more biblical yeah um and uh and I found nothing on this topic nothing
5:59
from a Biblical perspective and as far as I know there's still nothing biblical
6:04
on this issue and yet there are men out there that are
6:09
suffering so badly I mean I was I was I was weeping last night because I know so
6:16
many men personally good solid men that are not only getting
6:21
maligned and reviled that's the Biblical word reviled by their wives
6:28
but they're getting condemned not too strong a word condemned by their churches
6:33
and by the past years and by counselors even counselors that
6:39
are certified in the same group that I'm certified in and it is it is a
6:45
it's a pandemic it's it's something that is widespread I wrote my book eight
6:50
years ago wow and it's uh it's gotten far far worse I never dreamed how much
6:57
attention this subject would get and let me talk a little bit about publishing
7:03
the book too I have a a very kind recommendation from Jay Adams basically the father of biblical
7:10
counseling movement new fetic counseling and you know he and I talked about it he
7:16
really enjoyed the book he says boy this is this is really good there's nothing like this out there
7:21
and I thought that when I got a good recommendation from a solid man like that that it'd be easy to publish the
7:26
book I couldn't get any Christian Publishers to publish it not surprised they told me it's too controversial they
7:33
told me it's it's hating women I said did you read it I don't hate women I
7:39
mean it's the farthest thing from my mind some people said there's not that
7:44
this is not that big of a problem um I got all excuses and I thought this is
7:50
really strange so I had to self-publish it Amazon published it Liberal Liberal Amazon published it and
7:58
I go praise God for them you know that uh they're willing to to allow it to be self-published so
8:04
but uh but this is not this problem is not going away we're talking now in June
8:09
2023 and this is way way worse than it was in 2015 when I wrote the book yeah I
8:16
like how you know you're using such solid biblical terms to start with new
8:21
FedEx reviling condemn like these are these are this is biblical language to use to explain a problem and identify a
8:29
problem that a lot of people don't want to look at and because they don't want to look at it it's getting worse like
8:35
that's how these things tend to go exactly and I in a point of clarification people often ask why did
8:41
you use the word abusive wife why didn't you call it the reviling life and the simple reason is most people don't know
8:48
what reviling means right so I had to use a word that's common in our culture and then first two chapters I Define
8:54
well abuse is really not the best term you know abuse can talk about sexual
8:59
abuse emotional abuse again talking you know abuse becomes anything if you and I just agree on something you're abusing
9:06
me so it means really nothing but the Biblical word revile
9:11
is using words as a non-contact weapon where I seek to destroy you I seek to
9:18
not only in in in tone but also in content to destroy and and rip you apart
9:25
so um so revile um I don't know if you want to talk
9:30
about this yeah let's let's get in let's get into it yeah you know the word the word revile in John chapter 9 the man
9:38
born blind was reviled by the Jewish leaders it says they reviled him saying
9:44
you are his disciple but we are Disciples of Moses so it wasn't I don't think it was said as kindly as I
9:51
just said it it's it's that's you know you're his disciple and we're Disciples of Moses so they're trying to destroy
9:58
this man they're trying to ruin ruin him with their words um they're mocking him
10:04
uh in First Corinthians 4 12. it says that when we are reviled we bless so
10:10
there's the picture of antithesis okay when we're reviled we do the opposite we bless instead so if you want to know
10:16
what revile looks like it's the opposite of blessing someone
10:22
um Jesus when first Peter 2 23 says that when he was reviled he did not revile in return
10:30
so see verbal scorning evidences a Hardness of Heart and as we know Jesus
10:38
didn't have a hard heart he was he was perfect in every way so he didn't retaliate in the same way that that they
10:44
were going against him and then one of the most glaring ones is Matthew 15 4
10:51
where it says that whoever reviles his mother or father must be put to death
10:56
so that's telling us that this is a serious serious sin First Corinthians 5 First Corinthians 6 talks about that
11:05
reviling is grounds for church discipline we think of
11:12
uh you know sexual immorality we think of drunkenness we think of all kinds of reasons for church discipline but we I
11:20
really don't know any churches that have done church discipline on a woman for
11:25
reviling her husband I know somewhere then is accused of being real violent but uh but but not
11:33
not the woman so you know so when that's listed in the in the uh the options of
11:40
why church discipline is necessary reviling is right in there so if that's the case this is obviously serious
11:47
enough that we have to address it we have to hold everyone accountable for
11:53
this so before we go any further well I want to make a clarification too because
12:00
I am never I never deny that men are revilers too right I mean you have to
12:07
say state that because people say oh you're on this podcast the reviling wife the abusive wife you must hate women and
12:13
it's like absolutely not I know many men that that fit this description I'm not saying they they don't exist at all
12:20
they're out there too but the problem we're seeing now is that there are women out there you know men
12:26
and women sin pretty much the same amount I think yeah I think Romans 3 23
12:31
applies to everybody yes on that so asterisk all except for women
12:38
right any more than children gonna pass a nut or the elderly get a pass on it's like you know why would we expect
12:44
anything less right but but we live in such a feminized culture
12:49
right now where the feminist voice is so strong and so powerful that that women do get a pass on this
12:58
and so that's I think that's why you have me on the podcast like okay this was the abusive man you know everybody
13:03
say oh yeah no plenty of men like that but the abusive wife or the reviling wife
13:08
we're gonna see more and more people that say I know women like that
13:14
um and I and they contact me too they say I know women like that I've got some reviews that were written on Amazon by
13:21
women that say I know plenty of women like that and then I also know humble women that say you know what I have
13:26
tendencies in that direction myself so thank you for writing writing your book
13:32
yeah that and I I completely agree I've known many women like that
13:38
um you know in my family for example or um just meet them you know I I uh I
13:44
interview often I speak with a woman named Allison Armstrong and she she has a book called The
13:49
Queen's code about how to speak to men about her Awakening to the essentially to the humanity of men because she had
13:55
grown up a feminist and was taught how to relate to men in a particular way and then she realized that men are way more
14:01
complicated than just like dogs or pigs or whatever she recognizes we're actually human beings right with our own with our own way of being that's
14:07
completely different from from women almost like we're designed to be complementary to each other and so she
14:13
spent the past 30 years educating women on how to on how to speak to men and see them but she still sees this kind of
14:20
behavior all the time and she documents it in the book like women that are just they can't harm men physically in quite
14:26
the same way because they lack the physical strength but they have the ability to absolutely cut us apart with
14:33
with words um circles around men can't they that's right that's right they go around and
14:40
around around the man's like wait a minute what's going on I gotta address this and that and and he's just he's just pummeled pummeled with the words
14:46
but it's not just the the Avalanche of words not just the number of words is it
14:52
it's it's the it's the the heart behind the words it's the freight behind the
14:57
words it's the destructive it's the condescending it's the holding in contempt it's the unforgiving it's the
15:05
never apologizing that's these are all the traits that we see in the reviling life that uh you know she's Relentless
15:13
in that and you know she'll never apologize yes she'll never ask forgiveness which is you know two
15:19
different things but you'll never do either one of those very rarely will she do those things
15:24
so she's above reproach in her mind and really as the scriptures say this is
15:30
just simple pride and uh deadly Pride yes very much so and not only that they
15:36
won't the only Redemption is if you completely capitulate exactly there's no
No Escape
15:42
reconciliation there's no like if you just if we can work out the misunderstanding maybe we can come
15:47
together it's like no you I Must Destroy you totally and you have to bow the knee
15:53
to me and then and then I will release you from the suffering that's how that ends up playing isn't it amazing that
15:58
it's parallel to cancel culture woke ideology it's like boy it sounds an
16:04
awful lot like that doesn't it yes because it is that's what it is it's woke ideology
16:10
it's infiltrated good solid conservative Bible teaching churches
16:15
and we got to wake up to this we got to say wait a minute we we can't just capitulate we can't just apologize and
16:21
say you know we have to apologize to every woman who's ever made any accusation it's like
16:27
you know as I mentioned on one of the podcasts the metoo movement has has kind of gripped people in a way that says
16:34
okay just believe any woman for anything that she says and I go well I'm not going to disbelieve any woman
16:40
but I you know you have to ask some good questions you have to find out what's really going on what's what's happening
16:47
with this here's an example um one of the common phrases that you'll
16:55
hear from the reviling wife is that I don't feel safe around my husband
17:03
I don't feel safe and you know so now as a man as a man that loves women wants to
17:08
protect women wants to guard women from harm what is the typical man gonna do
17:14
even a man that's not a pastor that's not a counselor the typical man who's going to run to her defense and say whoa
17:20
boy I got to protect you because you're in danger those are emotionally charged words I don't feel safe
17:27
so if you're not Discerning and thinking this through you're just going to rush to her defense and you're automatically
17:33
going to start condemning the man this is what happens and the man never gets an opportunity to
17:39
defend himself to say this is what's going on you know let me explain you know
17:45
and anything the man does to try to explain the situation now you're being defensive now you're being prideful and
17:52
you know you're obviously uh you know so upset about this and look at how mad you're getting she's probably right
17:59
about you in fact she is right about you so it just kind of snowballs from there
18:04
so it's so instead what I do when a woman says that
18:10
to me with her husband here I I say what what do you mean you don't feel safe has he beat you as he hits you
18:18
has he threatened you has he got the knife or a gun and said if you don't do what I say I'm gonna you know is he
18:25
doing anything like that and almost without fail will they say well no he
18:30
hasn't done any of those things I said well help me understand what do you mean I don't feel safe
18:36
and usually what it comes down to is that well he's asking me to do something that I don't want to do
18:43
and I say okay is it something sinful he's asking you to do well no he's just you know I don't really want to follow
18:49
him I I know better than he does maybe you do but what does the scripture call you to
18:55
do what is the one command on God's word for you as a wife it's to submit to your husband
19:01
and that's a word that we don't want to use anymore submit it's like oh it's a the cursed s word you know it's like boy
19:08
you know don't you find yourself saying oh boy if I use the word submit with a woman she's going to come unglued on me
19:15
sometimes that's what happens and and we've been beaten down so much it's like
19:20
wait we're failing to use the biblical language that is inspired by God that
19:26
says a wife must submit to her husband now again we're not talking about a wife
19:32
that's getting beaten up a wife that's getting you know hit and knifed and threatened and and
19:38
all of that we're not talking about that you know if you're a wife in that kind of a marriage get out of there get out of the hole get your get your children
19:45
out of the home we're not saying submit to a man that's just evil and wicked however we are looking at furnaces First
19:52
Peter chapter 3 that says that even a man that's disobedient to the word the wife needs to submit to him
19:58
so even a man that's not quite getting it the wife's role is still to follow him
20:06
to submit to him and submission doesn't mean I'll go along with you as long as I
20:11
agree with you that's the other that's the other mistake that's often made is like well if my husband says something
20:17
and I agree with it then I'll submit to him I said well that's not submission no you know submission is I don't agree
20:23
with him but I willingly put myself under his authority because this is God's Authority this is the way God has
20:30
established Authority and that's where you're safe now you are safe but you go
20:35
out of that order now you really are unsafe not for the reasons you think you're unsafe but now
20:41
you're unsafe because you're disobeying not just your husband you're disobeying God
20:46
be very careful with that so I know I kind of took down on it we
20:52
were a tangent there no please this touches on so many different everything just relates doesn't it so it really
20:58
does I was listening to a Doug Wilson book uh called her hand in marriage that's about uh courtship and the
21:05
biblical courtship process exists to protect women from just that sort of
21:11
situation where you have you know a potential Suitor going to her father and having to win or earn her father's
21:18
approval because she's under she's under the headship of her father and then she's passed to the headship of her
21:25
husband right that's how that that's how that works and that process exists to
21:31
protect the woman from unrighteous ungodly men that she won't want to submit to right the father is there
21:38
vetting but when we blew apart the courtship process and created this individualized well let's just let's
21:44
just fall and have relations with each other and get our hormones all mixed up and believe that love is the most
21:49
important thing love is all you need we broke apart that um that chain that
21:54
existed for the women's benefit and now we're living in the in the aftermath of that detonation where everyone's having
22:01
to figure it out for themselves and so you have I think you have women entering into marriages carrying that Shield you
22:08
know like nope not not going to submit it's like well hold on just a second here like why did you end up with him in
22:14
the first place I've asked women that question and they don't they really don't like being asked that question yeah yes yes yeah
22:21
no just because a man is trying to lead does not make him a toxic man that's true that does not make it systemic uh
22:29
sexism um you know all of those things and and here's the other thing that's
22:34
interesting about the the husband of a reviling wife not only is there a very clear picture
22:41
of what the reviling wife looks like there's also a very clear picture of what the husband of a reviling wife
22:47
looks like yes he's usually very gentle he's very kind he's very compassionate
22:53
he loves his children he would give anything for his children sacrifice
22:58
anything for his children and yet he tends to be more on the
23:03
passive side of things he's kind of naive about things he's kind of he's kind of too gentle in some ways
23:10
so he's not a harsh angry mean cruel vindictive retaliatory man it's not that
23:17
at all he's the exact opposite of that but that's the kind of man that a
23:22
reviling wife is going to be drawn to because now she can control him
23:28
now she can you know Pummel him with words now her bitter heart comes out
23:34
even stronger because he's not a leader he's not the kind of leader that she's looking for but really she doesn't want
23:41
a leader she wants someone that's going to follow her yeah we get all the way back to Genesis 3 16 you know which is which is
23:49
where all of us started where where did all this start well that's you know that's that's where it started and I
23:54
love the esv's translation on this I think it's the most faithful to the Hebrew
23:59
um Genesis 3 16 your desire shall be contrary to your husband and he shall
24:05
rule over you so it brings out the point that the wife's desire is contrary to the husband
24:13
it's not a Godly desire it's not a kind desire because this is a result of the fall and so this is already the
24:19
Temptation for women now not every woman falls into that category and and and
24:25
plays that out in in real life but this is where this is where it began
24:31
began right at the fall of of Adam and Eve the other side of it is and he shall
24:36
rule over you that's just as ungodly that's the man oppressing the woman so there are men as we've said that are
24:43
like that as well that are harsh that are cruel that are vindictive that are you know beating their wives down
24:49
verbally and sadly many are beating them down physically as well which is wicked and sin we never never give a pass to
24:56
that but these two words in Genesis 3 16 desire
25:02
and Rule they only occur in one other place in the Bible it's in Genesis 4 7 the next chapter after Genesis 3 and and
25:11
there it's with um Cain and how sin has a desire contrary
25:17
to him but he must rule over it so it's a picture to say okay this is what it looks like sin Wants to Rule and control
25:24
and is contrary to God's Will and he has to push back on that and say this this
25:30
is not this is not allowed this is not appropriate so it kind of explains what's going on in Genesis 3 16 write in
25:37
the next chapters I mean it's no coincidence that God put those two words one chapter after the other but that's where it
25:44
comes from you know this is where because that's what people say where does this come from and um
25:50
another area that it's that it comes from also is I have found
25:56
yeah I just I've just kind of found this out because I've counseled so many of these kind of marriages
26:03
um there's usually been some very very deep and painful trauma in this wife's life
26:12
when she was a little girl she's raped she was molested
26:17
she was physically assaulted by her brothers or her father you know there's
26:22
all kinds of all kinds of things like that and so as she gets older as she
26:28
ages she gets triggered by these things with her husband even though he's not doing
26:35
the same thing it's like this just feels exactly like what my dad did to me or this feels like what that rapist did to
26:41
me and so then she projects that onto him onto her innocent husband
26:46
and you know and part of it we just go I feel so bad for these poor women what they've experienced you know so so
26:53
here's another here's another consequence another fruit of how wickedly some men have treated
27:01
women and we're seeing the consequence of that now in the marriage relationship we're seeing that wow that is
27:08
destructive in another another Avenue now and the same demonic
Passing On Abuse
27:16
um work that was done with the rapists with the man beating the little girl with the
27:22
man molesting the little girl the same demonic influence there it comes out later
27:27
in a demonic influence on the wife towards an innocent husband towards the husband hasn't done these things
27:34
so here's a whole nother Avenue I mean I know we've got so many tangents will that we could talk about no I know but
27:39
here's another one parental alienation this is this is just so it is so
27:47
Grievous it is unbelievable we've I hear these stories and I know them I know
27:53
these men I'm not making this stuff up that they get accused of the most wicked
27:58
and evil things they're like where is this coming from why would my wife or my daughter my adult daughter make these
28:05
accusations against me I was just reading one of these emails I got this morning from a man that has basically
28:11
lost everybody in his family through false accusations of sexual
28:18
molestation of rape of you know just just things you go gosh this would have
28:23
to be this wicked monster evil man to do this and yet I know this guy I've known
28:29
him for years he's not that kind of man and his story is not unique I hear it over and over
28:36
and over and over again where the where the wife becomes so embittered against
28:42
her husband that it's not enough to just divorce him then she wants to destroy him she wants
28:50
him to lose his job she wants him to lose his reputation she wants him to go to prison she wants him to just be have
28:56
no contact with anyone in the family and there are men that that I've counseled
29:03
men that are in my I have an online group of men that I meet with and their stories I mean anybody hearing
29:10
their stories would just absolutely weep over what's going on men that have not talked to their
29:16
families in years one man that has a a son a son that's not even a teenager
29:24
yet and the court has ordered him to have contact that that son to have contact
29:30
with him and the son is just yes no yes no bye and you know that's that's the
29:37
substance of the relationship so imagine what that does as I said
29:42
before to a man that already loves his family a man that already would give
29:47
anything his first family and now that family is ripped apart from him so parental alienation a whole nother
29:53
subset of the reviling wife it comes with this it comes with that territory sadly and
30:02
um you know there's a book that needs to be written on that too from a Biblical perspective I you know I've got a dozen
30:08
books in my mind that I just don't have the time or the self-discipline to get them all done right
30:14
but but it's you know you laugh at it but you cry about it you go oh Lord please help these men please
30:22
you know not only relieve them of their suffering but restore reconcile these relationships that have just been torn
30:29
apart so that's a whole a whole nother area
30:35
um maybe we should talk a little bit about what the scriptures say how it describes
30:42
a reviling wife there's a lot there's a lot in the Book of Proverbs on this
30:47
interesting interestingly enough I'll just kind of run through a few of them just always say don't uh take a lot of
30:55
time on it but Proverbs 19 13 a foolish son is ruined to his father and a wife's
31:02
quarreling is a continual dripping of rain so you know if you have a house that
31:09
doesn't have a roof that's properly sealed you can't keep out the rainy weather
31:14
but you could get alternative housing or you get your roof repaired but there's
31:19
no Escape From The Bitter contentious wife Proverbs 21 9 it's better to live in a
31:25
corner of the House Top than in a house shared with a quarrelsome wife
31:31
there's no peace there's no sanctuary in the home this this man has to go to a
31:36
corner of the House Top on the roof of the house to get away from that he's
31:41
going to the furthest point away so that he can get some peace shouldn't be this should not be
31:49
um Proverbs 25 24 it repeats the same same words as 21 nines it's interesting you
31:56
know it's a few chapters later Solomon is repeating that um Proverbs 21 19. it's better to live
32:03
in a desert land than with a quarrelsome and fretful woman so now it's taking it
32:08
to a different level so I get out of the house get off of the roof you got to go out in the desert to get away from this
32:14
constant barrage of reviling and someone that hasn't lived in that kind of a home
32:19
really can't fathom what that's like most men will say well you know every
32:25
husband and wife argue about some things we don't agree on everything I mean you know you don't agree with everything I'm
32:31
assuming you're married you don't agree you're not married okay I'm not sorry but um you know we don't uh we don't
32:37
look at that and say well it's some things that are that are difficult to put up with but
32:43
this is far in a whole separate category the reviling wife is in a way different
32:49
category um look at this picture
32:55
Proverbs 27 15-16 a continual dripping on a rainy day and a quarrelsome wife
33:00
are alike to restrain hers to restrain the wind or to grasp oil in one's right
33:06
hand grasping oil in your hand you know I can change the oil in my cars all the time
33:11
I'm still old school and I do my own oil change like yep you get that oil in your hands it's like I can't grip it I can't
33:17
hold on to it it just it just slips right through so this is again a picture
33:22
of the quarrelsome or contentious or reviling wife
33:28
um Proverbs 12 4 she who brings shame to her husband is like rottenness to his
33:35
bones so now we're talking about the Deep Soul pain that that husband goes through
33:42
these men are just broken they are just destroyed well they have gone through so
33:48
much so rather than peace and contentment she's she's like a piercing scourge
33:55
it's like a living disease in this in this men and it is so sad and again I'm
34:01
not throwing women under the bus I'm looking at this feel for these women that are so bound up in their own misery and their own
34:08
bitterness there's freedom in the gospel there's freedom in Christ there's freedom in what Jesus has done but they
34:16
they they don't see it they don't they don't want to see it in many cases yes and one more and this this passage is
34:22
probably the most descriptive the wisest of women's Proverbs 14 1 the wisest of
34:27
women builds their house but Folly with their own hands tears it down
34:33
if there's one passage that describes it the best I think that's it it's like you know she she could be wise and build her
34:39
house or or she can just be a fool just Folly and tear her house down tear
34:45
everything down tear her family down so you know so just as I mentioned that
34:52
these men will often sacrifice anything and everything for their families they
34:57
don't really care about money they don't care about your reputation they would sacrifice anything for their families
35:04
often what we see in the reviling wife is she'll sacrifice anything for her
35:09
feelings skills therefore that's all that matters
35:15
and as I mentioned in my book feelings are not sovereign feelings don't determine truth feelings are real
35:22
I know she feels the things that she says but that doesn't rule that's not
35:27
the way that we evaluate truth and what's right and what's honorable and what's holy and what's good
35:34
but if your feelings are all that count then you know you're just gonna go
35:40
you're just gonna go on her opinion on on things but what often it doesn't happen the man's feelings don't count
35:46
yeah well I just feel like I'm beaten up I just feel like I can never say
35:52
anything right I feel like I can never lead in my home I feel like you know I I asked my wife
35:58
to do something innocent and she's she's just reviling me and I I don't understand why what am I doing wrong
36:06
it's not that the man is necessarily doing anything wrong some if he is then we we address that we
36:13
want biblical conviction and we call him to repent but if it's not we look at the wife and say we have to hold you
36:20
accountable if we love you we'll hold you accountable
36:26
thank you for all of that um because it's it's all it's all very real and I think I think many men
36:32
listening will relate to this uh one of my friends is a man named Eric Carroll from Dad talk today very popular like
36:39
200 000 followers on Facebook primarily serving divorced ads and one of his
36:46
um one of his big themes that he talks about is Dad deprivation parental alienation and and there's actually a
36:53
phenomenon now where you know parents will get divorced the wife will get
36:58
remarried to another man and tell this other man such horror stories about her
37:04
ex that the man will then go murder the husband and those are starting to happen or she just people are losing lives over
37:11
it and there's a very there's a very moving story about that one one thing I wanted to say is that
37:18
nothing that happened to you in childhood legitimizes your mistreatment of another
37:24
person absolutely ever true it doesn't matter whether you were locked in a
37:31
dungeon and mistreated man or woman that does not give you the right to mistreat
37:36
someone in your future who had nothing to do with it ever ever absolutely no that's I'm glad you
37:44
clarified that because I probably did not but that's it's implied but yeah absolutely true and um
37:52
you know people that have been through these traumatic things there's a real bitterness that's taken roots in their
37:58
hearts yeah Hebrews 12 talks about a root of bitterness and it has to be pulled out and the only thing that can
38:04
pull it out is Jesus the gospel the only thing that can pull that out and they have to embrace it and say okay I was
38:12
wickedly sinned against there's no no question about that is black and white
38:17
you know whether it's locked in a basement or raped or gang raped horrible thing God have mercy on on men
38:24
that have done that to to young women especially um but that woman has got to walk in
38:31
Freedom she does not get an excuse for sin do she does not get the freedom to say well I can treat men this way
38:38
because of how wickedly I was treated no we don't retaliate we bless instead we
38:44
instead of condemning we we bless you know you know we would not that I'm
38:49
saying have contact with the the wicked man that did this right but the innocent man that you're married to now he didn't
38:56
do that but you know will they're blind to that they don't they don't see it
39:02
and it's the same thing that I see with pastors and counselors they're they're blind to these things
39:09
and there's two types of blindness I think at least two different types the one kind of blindness is an innocent
39:15
blindness they don't know any better they don't understand they haven't been taught they haven't been instructed they
39:21
haven't studied the scriptures enough it's kind of an innocent blindness okay okay I just I just don't get it
39:27
but the more frightening one is the prideful blindness yeah people
39:33
have tried to help them people have tried to tell them people have given them biblical information again whether
39:38
this is the wife that's been through the trauma or whether it's the pastor or counselor who is trying to help the
39:45
family there's a lot of pride in counselors and in pastors that keeps
39:53
them from seeing this problem I've talked to them that they don't they
39:58
don't want to see it they go well I'm going to have to admit that I'm wrong then oh and and it's like you know that that's
40:05
what they're saying inside they're not coming right out and saying I don't want to examine all the evidence
40:10
and um you know and the way it begins is
40:16
if you separate the husband and wife in counseling this is the most deadly part I don't even remember if we talked about
40:22
that I know we've talked about what's in the book it's in the book yeah but um separating the husband and wife and the
40:29
counseling in other words just counsel the wife alone and then just counsel the husband alone very deadly very wrong
40:35
absolutely the wrong thing to do and um here's what the scripture says Proverbs
40:42
18 13 if one gives an answer before he hears it's Folly and shame
40:47
so don't give an answer until you hear the whole story until you hear everything that's going on if you think
40:54
you can solve marital Strife but just hearing one side it's not going to go well
40:59
people are innocent until they're proven guilty not guilty until they're proven innocent you know this is this is
41:06
America I mean we still mostly believe that you know we've seen some weaponizing of the justice system
41:12
lately that uh that's the way our country was founded has founded on biblical principles that you have to
41:18
hear the whole story you have to give someone the opportunity to defend themselves um a few verses later Proverbs 18 17 the
41:26
one who states his case first seems right until the other comes and examines him
41:32
so you know I I can't tell you how many counseling situations they sound so
41:38
one-sided until the other spouse tells you the rest of the story you know like Paul Harvey used to say here's the rest
41:44
of the story you know we got to hear the whole side of the story not just hear one aspect of it and make a conclusion
41:52
based on that we've got to hear the whole story so we need the husband and wife together when these um situations
41:59
come up uh Proverbs 20 verse 19 whoever goes about slandering reveals Secrets
42:05
therefore do not associate with a simple babbler or a gossip when you counsel
Avoiding Separate Counseling
42:12
only one person at a time you're encouraging gossip you're encouraging
42:17
them to gossip about the other person and they're gonna you know they're gonna make the other person look bad this is
42:23
why when I counsel people I always request I say please husband and wife I want you both to come together
42:29
so that I can get the whole picture I don't want I don't want you to innocently gossip I don't want you to
42:35
wickedly gossip either I don't want you to you know to say something with your spouse not there
42:40
because it'll give you the wrong impression some people just innocently do that some people do it because they
42:45
want to destroy the other person but um this is this is what happens
42:52
um when we counsel separately and one more verse Proverbs 26 20. for lack of wood the fire goes out and where there
42:59
is no Whisperer quarreling ceases so if if they're both together one party
43:06
cannot tell the secrets of the other person that the other person doesn't want them to hear they they can't do
43:11
this if they're both there together you get the full picture so no so in essence you know the wife says XYZ and the
43:19
husband says well it's real not really the whole story here's the other part of that oh okay that gives me the counselor
43:25
the ability to discern what's going on and say okay not that she's trying to throw him under the bus but if I just
43:32
listen to her I would just assume he's this horrible Wicked Man this is what's happening
43:39
this is exactly what's happening at a lot of these counseling cases I've got many of them I could give stories
43:45
and these men have given me permission permission to tell their stories they won't give you their names but telling their stories that um pastors and
43:52
counselors will talk to the wife and the wife will say something like I don't feel safe like we talked about before
43:59
and the counselor makes up his mind and says boy this this is a terrible situation this man is just this is he's
44:05
a real problem I've had cases where they never talk to the man they don't even ask the man will
44:13
you talk to us they just make the determination they condemn him they're judge jury and
44:18
executioner and it's over it's done now I will say that I when I ask
44:25
husbands and wives please let's both of you counsel together sometimes the wife won't she says no I
44:32
don't want to cancel with you oh wow and I go okay why not well I'm not going
44:37
to any man or any biblical counselor or anything like that yeah so I go okay I'm not going to just leave the man hanging
44:44
up now I'm going to help him but I always ask please husband and wife please both come even if even if I'm
44:52
hearing that it's a reviling wife I still I have to hear her voice and hear
44:57
what she has to say I can't just assume just because the man says she's reviling that she is I have to hear them both
45:05
but if she won't even come for counseling I mean what other conclusion can I draw
45:10
so so that's the sad part and this is what's happening this is
45:16
I was telling somebody the other day it almost reminds me of the Salem witch trials in some ways that the man is the
45:22
scourge he's the wicked one he's condemned he's the evil one he's he's the one you know we don't even have to
45:28
get his testimony and um that's just that's just wicked and evil
45:35
and gossip type of count it's slander as well and it's tearing families apart
45:42
staring children apart from their parents and it's um you know again we get back
45:49
to this has got to be the enemy of our souls that's doing this the accuser of the Brethren that is
45:55
that is behind these things it's it's it's not being done in a corner either
46:00
will this is not well these are just rare very unusual circumstances no it's not
46:08
at all a lot of these men won't talk about it to anybody else because they get shut down
46:15
or because they're so embarrassed it's like it's humiliating to tell somebody what happened with my wife
46:21
it's humiliating to to say this is what my wife is doing and a lot of these men say
46:28
instead of my wife just reviling me non-stop I I wish she would just hit me
46:34
um that's how bad it is and then sadly many of them do I cover
46:40
that in my book too that many many of these women they do resort to physical violence
46:46
and um oh I had a had a story I wanted to
46:52
tell you about with that too um yeah please go ahead
46:57
I don't I have it written down somewhere but I'll just go by go by memory it was a case
47:02
with a man with a reviling wife and she was mad at him about something I
47:09
don't remember what it was but it was something insignificant something very small and so she just came unglued on him and
47:16
started just flailing at him physically hitting him hitting him hitting him over and over and over again
47:24
and um and he grabbed her wrists to keep her from hitting him
47:31
and she she was still she was kicking him she was doing this she was doing that and he and he said
47:38
you crazy and then he used the word that rhymes with which sure I think it's in my book
47:44
and um and so the police were called and you
47:50
know he became an ugly scene and so then the husband and wife are describing the scene so they're
47:56
pastor and their counselor and the pastor hears the story and then
48:02
he says well husband why did you use that word
48:09
you know the husband's like really that's what you're going to focus on
48:14
I mean she was flailing at me she was flailing on him like a wicked demon and
48:20
and all you have to say is why did you use that that bad word with your wife and you know that's that's what happens
48:27
it's like okay the guy is always guilty yeah and you know if that's the case it's like well the man's never going to
48:33
be not even neutral he's never going to win but he's never even going to be neutral
48:39
and as far as I know they never held that wife accountable for what she did to her husband and she was just disagreeing with him
48:45
about something it wasn't something harsh wasn't he wasn't calling her to sin he wasn't you know insisting that
48:51
she do something but uh um she just didn't want to do it and she was so full of Fury
48:58
that she was just flailing on him and he just held her wrists you know just just
49:04
right here not self-defense not choking her not you know nothing like that not getting her not slapping her not kicking
49:10
her and yet the counselor said what use that word for husband wow
49:17
that's what these men are up against and and again these are good pastors I
49:23
mean they're good counselors they they know the Lord they know God's word and that they just push it aside
49:30
and in essence they become bad counselors yeah yeah you know I know a
49:36
lot of these guys I mean the friends of mine I mean I know I know these guys and I go what what's going on no no no you
49:41
don't you don't understand the whole story so well I've talked to both parties I mean what what are you missing here well no you're
49:48
just you're just seeing what you want to see I go no I think it's the other way around you're seeing what you want to
49:54
see brother and um and there's where the pride comes in I'm above reproach I'm the pastor I'm
50:00
the counselor I see everything perfectly and you can't correct the pasture or the counselor then
50:06
so now I mean I've made plenty of blunders and mistakes as a pastor as a counselor
50:12
you know I don't claim to be they have a corner on the market of truth but
50:18
if if it's clear in the word of God that we should be counseling couples
50:24
together why aren't we doing that we're setting the men up
50:30
oh yeah we're abandoning men are abandoned they're they've been abandoned by their pastors
50:36
they've been abandoned by their society they've been abandoned by their fathers and when a woman decides that she's
50:43
gonna take a chunk out of a man with her words with her shame with her vitriol in
50:50
private and in public it happens often too there's no constraints on her at all
50:57
there's no one that can tell her anything and meanwhile TV magazines you
51:03
know the web is like you know you you go girl you're the strong independent hero
51:09
you don't need no man and the movie's reinforce all of this all the heroes
51:15
being shamed by the woman that shows up over and over and over again and there's no and and I can understand being in the
51:22
secular world where there's no constraint on that because they've thrown off God's law but you would think
51:27
that once you can come under the safe hierarchy of a church that a pastor might be able to consult the whole word
51:34
of God and identify a sin for what it is and hold the women accountable but when even the last line of defense won't do
51:41
anything won't speak up and say that's wrong that's sinful we're holding you
51:47
accountable in front of the church body when a pastor won't do that you're leaving men defend for themselves yeah
51:53
and that's love isn't it isn't that love to hold one another accountable absolutely it is I mean you know if if
51:59
you and I are friends and we love each other and we see sin in each other I mean you're going to gently approach you
52:04
would gently approach me or I would approach you and say Hey Brother I don't think this is a good idea you
52:10
know this seems like it's against God's word what do you think and you would hope that you would look at it and say yeah you're you know
52:16
you're right or or that I would look at and say yeah it's what you say is is
52:21
true but this is this is what happens What You Know The Narrative of the reviling
52:28
wife what does she want you know that's the question what does she really want what is what is she
52:34
doing what's what's this all about here's here's what I hear
52:39
and you tell you draw the conclusion you tell me what summarizes all of these things um I want my Independence
52:47
I don't want anybody to tell me what to do I don't need a man to make me happy
52:54
I want to live my own life I don't like the traditional family
53:02
being a mother is not a fulfilling role to me what is that
53:08
feminism it's feminism exactly what it is and yet that's The Narrative of the
53:13
reviling life those are the things she'll you're going to have listeners that are hearing this now and say oh
53:18
yeah I know women like that or maybe a woman that will hear that and say yeah that that is me and and here's my appeal
53:25
to women that are listening right now I don't hate you I don't despise you
53:32
I I want you to humble yourself under God's Mighty hand and listen to the word
53:38
of God and let it work in your soul and change you from being filled with yourself
53:45
to being filled with the presence of God and say it is a Godly thing to submit to
53:52
a man even an imperfect man which every man is I mean me included but this is
53:58
that's all all men in this club raise your hand that's all we're all raising our hands yeah well so
54:04
um this is how you obey and honor God this is how you follow Jesus Christ so
54:13
don't look at this and say I I've got to have my Independence I I don't need a man to be happy now I'm not saying you
54:20
have to be married to be happy but if you are married and you're miserable in your marriage
54:27
get help get new fetic help and meet with the counselor with your spouse so
54:34
that he can help you both and hold you both accountable when I count even when
54:40
I counsel men with reviling wives
54:45
I still hold the man accountable because of his reaction to what she's doing to him so in other words her reviling of
54:52
him does not give him the freedom to revile her back I mean we saw that in
54:58
Jesus right first Peter 2 and he was reviled he did not revile in return so it's like husband you can't revile or in
55:03
return yeah but she's she's doing this no you don't get a pass on this either you have to be a godly man before her
55:11
even in the midst of your trial even in the midst of your suffering that you're going through I know this is hard I know
55:19
this is painful I know it feels hopeless but it's not
55:24
it's not hopeless so so this is one of the things that I urge upon men with um
55:33
understanding what's going on what's God doing
55:38
what does he expect from me and I tell men this and they usually
55:44
don't get it at first but eventually they go I see what you mean now
55:49
this is going to be the most sanctifying time in that man's life what he's going through with the
55:56
reviling wife he's going to grow more through the trials he's enduring then
56:01
through all of the peaceful wonderful happy easy things in his life
56:07
I think we find that in our lives that the deeper and the darker the affliction
56:13
the more readily God can work and change us and that's what happens with these men
56:19
that really pursue the Lord with all their heart they don't just play Church
56:25
they're not just religious they're not just going through the motions they say all right Lord work in me there's things
56:31
about me why is this hurting me so badly well first of all First Peter 1 6 says
56:38
that some of our trials are necessary you know these are necessary if necessary you've been grieved by various
56:45
trials so first of all we look at that say okay this is this is needful I may not want
56:50
it but it's part of God's plan for me and it's not that the man is a bad man
56:57
it's not that he's a man full of sin but he needs these trials to be the school
57:02
in which God teaches him so what are some of the things that God teaches him one of the things he teaches
57:08
is compassion patience the King James translates the word
57:14
patience as long suffering makes it a very Vivid picture doesn't it long you have to be willing to suffer a long time
57:21
that's what a patient man looks like in Colossians 3 12 says to put this on
57:27
put on patience put on compassion put on meekness put on these things you have to
57:35
desire to become that kind of man through what you are enduring it'll make
57:40
you a better man the suffering is hard and painful and and it is very very much debilitating at
57:49
times that it will refine you it will sanctify you it will change you this is
57:55
what God is doing in that um a man will learn a lot about forgiveness
58:01
Matthew 6 verses 14 and 15 says for if you forgive the sins of others then
58:08
you'll be forgiven but if you don't forgive then you're not forgiven so forgiveness is not a peripheral idea in
58:16
Scripture it is Central and the only part in The Lord's Prayer which is Matthew 6 9 through 13.
58:23
the only part of that prayer that is repeated is in verses 14 and 15. the two verses
58:30
right after it are about forgiving forgiving one another this is what's the
58:36
hardest part for us to do is to forgive but it's also the most freeing and the
58:42
Beautiful and the proof of the work of God in your heart you are forgiving man that that's evidence that you are born
58:49
again you're not forgiving it's evidence you're not born again you say I can't
58:54
forgive I can never let that go that's giving the impression that well there's no hope for me I can't uh you
59:02
know I I there's there's no way that I could ever forgive my wife or what she did so same thing works for the wife
59:07
towards the husband too whatever she's holding against him she has to forgive him but again this is
59:13
a sanctifying thing this is what God is doing this is what God is sowing in the man's heart through all of his
59:19
afflictions and trials the man's going to learn about anger and bitterness and repentance from that
59:27
um Ephesians 4 31 talks about that Hebrews 12 15 we alluded to that before
59:33
about put it all away anger wrath slander bitterness let put it all away
59:39
from you we've got to get get that out of our Lives because it's not going to be constructive there is a place for
59:45
righteous anger but often I think what we do is we we justify our anger by saying well it's
59:51
righteous so therefore it's okay it's like be very very careful with that the
59:56
word of God calls us to repent from anger it's very destructive it can really harm
1:00:02
it can do some good with men that say I care about Justice I care about
1:00:08
righteousness okay good but be careful don't stay in that anger very long because it will destroy you it'll
1:00:15
destroy your witness your testimony and everything else but um
1:00:21
a man's going to learn boy why did I get so angry at what she said to me what she did to me
1:00:27
this is another another sanctifying time for that man um
1:00:34
learning how to Lament we don't talk very much about that either
1:00:39
Sorrows lamentation we've got a whole book in the Bible called the Lamentations right Jeremiah wrote it
1:00:46
and you see you know Jeremiah just as hard as Rift I mean he's called the weeping prophet well why he's lamenting
1:00:53
over the sins of his people and over the consequences of those sins upon an
1:00:58
entire nation and if you look at Lamentations chapter three it's really interesting
1:01:05
because he says you did this God you did this you did this you did no God did
1:01:11
these things like okay what does he mean by that and at the end of Lamentations three he's he's talking about learning
1:01:17
to wait on God so it's designed to draw the man to the Lord lamenting towards
1:01:24
God not lamenting in self-pity not lamenting in in feeling sorry for
1:01:30
yourself woe is me but lamenting in a sense of the loss that I have and I'm
1:01:35
waiting on God to restore and to bless and to change me and to soften my heart
1:01:43
sometimes that takes a long time but that's what's going on well I wanna I wanna jump in here and I say what about
1:01:50
her so I understand that we're being that a man can be put through this trial and
Supprting Reviled Men
1:01:56
let's say she's doing everything short of physical violence she's not standing over the bed with a knife right but the
1:02:02
the and let's say that it's a the couple doesn't have kids that's all because that's a whole other complex but she's
1:02:09
verbally abusive rebellious actively on a daily basis shaming and
1:02:15
public and in private gossiping about her husband even ruining his professional opportunities with her
1:02:21
loose mouth like she's doing everything she can to persecute her husband there's part of me that says yes absolutely to
1:02:30
everything that you're saying sanctification for real but there's another part of me that's like we can't
1:02:35
just leave this man to die in this dungeon for a woman who has no intention
1:02:41
to ever repent and who actually just wants to punish him out of the pure
1:02:46
Wicked bitterness of her heart is there no no and there's no hope for this man
1:02:51
do we just I mean I obviously the Lord is with him and and yes and but there is
1:02:57
a component of like the Lord helps those who help themselves can he leave can he
1:03:03
just say you know what I've had it I'm gonna I'm gonna move out we made a marriage covenant I get that not going
1:03:09
to get a divorce right but I'm gone like you don't get to pretend that you're in a relationship anymore I'm not going to
1:03:15
allow myself to be subject to this anymore at what point at what point can
1:03:20
a man simply say that you know I've had enough dialogue pardon my language but I don't know how else to say it yeah no
1:03:28
it's it's it's a it's a great question it's a great point
1:03:33
and it shows the compassion for the man yeah to even ask that question
1:03:38
because I know you're not asking it in the sense of saying I want this man to have an easy way out
1:03:44
no you know because that's not what we want and sometimes
1:03:50
the um the trials the afflictions that's God's
1:03:56
goal with the man so that he learns and grows and changes it's not
1:04:02
not about the marriage it's about him think of the Book of Job for instance
1:04:07
here we have job that he loses his children he loses his health
1:04:14
he loses the love of his wife and then even his friends turn against
1:04:20
him yeah it loses his kids yeah so he's he's got everything and he's lost his business too he's all of
1:04:26
his livestock's gone I mean he he's lost everything literally and then not only does he lose his
1:04:33
friends but he calls them worthless Physicians miserable comforters
1:04:41
and you go through the whole book of job and you're just waiting you're waiting for the answer okay God why why why
1:04:50
and you never get the answer do you because if you get the answer and say well this is why God did it then you
1:04:57
would say well that was that was the reason that's the purpose of all of this
1:05:02
but I think because it's left unexplained it's left unsaid why God did this
1:05:08
it's telling us what the answer is it's telling us that this is for the man to draw near to the
1:05:15
Lord and find that peace in his soul that only God can bring because nothing
1:05:20
in the world is going to bring it not his wife not his children that he's lost
1:05:27
not his three friends who are sadly
1:05:32
um you know erstwhile friends you know their former friends really they really are not acting like friends at all
1:05:39
he's um he's lost everything except for one thing
1:05:44
he's he's not lost his relationship with God and he is changed and grown and
1:05:50
Sanctified through that and so by the end of the books chapter 42 you see God rebuking the men
1:05:59
and saying job's going to pray for you because job has done what is right
1:06:05
and so you see that you know the men that I've talked to I urge them read the book of job again with new eyes with
1:06:11
fresh eyes and see see what God is doing
1:06:16
um he's trying to refine you he's trying to change you
1:06:22
and not that you're a bad man not that you're an evil man
1:06:27
but he wants you to be a better man he wants to be a better father a better husband a better leader now
1:06:33
I know I haven't totally answered your question it's like David you're still avoiding my questions like well
1:06:40
I don't understand I'm not really avoiding it I I don't want any men out there
1:06:45
to look at this and say well I've got justification to leave my marriage because of what
1:06:52
David and will talked about on the podcast I don't want men to have right that kind of a thought in their mind
1:06:59
because I think every case has to be looked at individually and examined and these men need help
1:07:07
they need somebody to come alongside of them not to condemn them but to talk with them and say okay let's
1:07:14
let's address this let's address that let's address your sin husband let's address the things that that you are
1:07:20
doing wrong not things that are causing your life to be this way but let's let's address those things let's not just run
1:07:27
away and get out of this marriage but you know it's easy for you and me to say that it's like I'm not in that marriage so let's let's
1:07:33
does hold on you know it's easy for us to say that but I don't want to make it easy for the
1:07:39
man to say I've got full justification to get out of this marriage too right that's too
1:07:45
much that's what a lot of men will do that are that are listening to this and I don't I don't want that I mean I hold I hold marriage in very very high regard
1:07:53
and yet I do no I do know that many of these men that
1:07:58
have counseled they lost their marriages and yet very few of the men
1:08:05
filed for divorce there's a few of them but very few of them did It's usually
1:08:10
the wife that does even though she's the guilty one even though she's the one doing the reviling
1:08:17
and the bitter controlling angry Wicked one what I do instead will is I encourage
1:08:25
the men to lovingly and kindly fear God rather than they
1:08:31
fear their wives stand and Lead don't back down
1:08:37
don't be mean about it don't be cruel don't be just yelling at your wife and saying you've got to submit to me woman
1:08:42
you know not any of that kind of nonsense but just lead be the man that God calls
1:08:49
you to be and now if the wife leaves you go well I've done what God wants me to do yes
1:08:55
I'm eating in a way that's oppressive I'm not ruling over my wife in a harsh way
1:09:01
but I'm kind of I'm putting everything forward so that okay
1:09:07
wife I I have led you in the wrong way I've been too passive
1:09:14
I have equivocated I've abdicated I have been complicit in things
1:09:20
and I've compromised I can't do that anymore because I have to fear God more than I fear you so I'm
1:09:26
gonna start making some changes and some things that are going to be different now I want you
1:09:33
to join me in let's glorify and honor God together
1:09:40
have a conversation something like that with your reviling wife now she may just blow up and say you know you're just a
1:09:46
toxic man and you know all that stuff or maybe she'll hear it and listen and say okay
1:09:55
okay I'll follow you yes rare rare but I have seen it I have seen it happen
1:10:02
but if she leaves now then the man can say look I've done everything I can
1:10:08
amen I have been the man that God calls me to be and if she leaves so be it
1:10:14
most of these men even after their wives divorce them and leave them they still love their wives they still oh I wish
1:10:21
you would recognize I wish you would come back I wish you know and sadly eventually there has to come a
1:10:28
point where the man has to say I just have to let her go not out of hatred not out of an abandonment but she doesn't
1:10:34
want to be under my authority and under my protection she's made that clear
1:10:40
she's on her own now yeah so I haven't directly answered your
1:10:46
question no you did that's what I'm that's the way I I try to help men because I
1:10:51
I don't want this to be a get out of jail free card same and yet
1:10:57
I just grieve for what these men are going through I just go oh this is so so
1:11:03
painful so lonely so hard and very few people understand what
1:11:09
they're enduring very very few you know I've had contact from
1:11:16
maybe two or three pastors and counselors around the nation
1:11:22
that have contacted me and said wow I like what you've said on your podcast
1:11:28
hopefully there'll be more with the podcast yeah but you know two or three
1:11:35
out of the thousands that have heard this and I go what's wrong with this picture am I a
1:11:41
bad guy are you a bad guy I mean are we just scratching where nobody's itching it's
1:11:46
like oh no we're scratching right we're men are riching and they're like man I need help here please please help me
1:11:54
I got a call this morning from a guy in Canada from British Columbia Canada that heard one of the podcasts and I go okay
1:12:02
what's what's going on with with you same story same exact thing it's it's almost like
1:12:09
it's a textbook case the men that read my book
1:12:14
that here one of these podcasts I've done they tell me the same thing they say
1:12:19
it's like you had a um a recorder and you are taping what's
1:12:27
going on in my house the conversation the way things play out
1:12:33
what I say what my wife says how do you know this so well
1:12:39
and I go I think I'm just faithful to God's word I'm just trusting what God says I'm nothing special
1:12:46
if nothing I'm not brave or courageous I'm just saying I have to stand where God's word stands and and I've seen this
1:12:54
so many times now that it's almost predictable
1:13:01
so um I'll make that available to people as
1:13:06
well it's kind of a dangerous thing to do this but any man or woman is listening to this podcast with you
1:13:13
you're free to contact me compassionate counselors is the ministry compassionatecounselors.com is our
1:13:19
website um my email address is Council the word at
1:13:26
pm.me so PM as in protonmail.me and uh
1:13:33
I'll even give you my phone number 602-384-4417
1:13:41
I edit out the phone number just in case that's up to you I'll let you I'll let you decide on that but I just want to
1:13:48
help I just want to help these families and I want to help these men because they need they they need this
1:13:53
help it's not it's not going away it's getting worse yes
1:13:59
and uh we need pastors to be leading the way in this we need new fetic biblical
1:14:06
counselors leading on this not figuring it out 10 years later
1:14:11
but leading the way on this because we're hurting people or we're
Calling Attention to the Problem
1:14:18
we're not only allowing people to get hurt but we are hurting them as well
1:14:24
we can't uh we can't just ignore that we can't just put that aside
1:14:30
men especially are being hurt absolutely men women are women have free reign and
1:14:36
license to harm men when when a man comes to me and says he's lucky for a church by the way there's like a thousand different tangents that that we
1:14:43
could that we could go on you know I always tell him when you go and meet with the pastor if you're considering
1:14:50
joining a church you have to ask the pastor three questions and that will tell you where the church is really at
1:14:55
question number one do women sin question number two do women sin against
1:15:03
men question number three are you capable of holding women accountable for sin
1:15:10
if he hesitates on even one of those questions leave
1:15:15
leave because you will be you will be abandoned now like you can get a sense
1:15:20
of you can like he may hesitate or answer like he answered correctly like you'll feel it out in the moment like
1:15:26
it's like oh you you know you you took a breath and I'm out you know so obviously you know use discernment with it but
1:15:32
there are far too many pastors that will that will answer no to one of those questions yes women sin yes women sin
1:15:38
against men no I'm not capable of holding women accountable for sin leave more willing to or willing to yeah able
1:15:44
and willing yeah because because otherwise you have men that again will feel like they've been
1:15:51
abandoned that they'll be held accountable for things that are not their fault that their wives will have
1:15:57
weapons free against their husbands and especially their children and this is something that I tend that I talk a lot
1:16:03
about on Instagram with some female content creators you know who are talking about motherhood like this we're
1:16:10
surviving of of their husbands it also goes down to their sons in many cases as
1:16:16
well yes and daughters in a different way but I mean maybe you can talk a little bit about the impact of the
1:16:22
reviling light of the reviling wife on her sons yeah it's on Sons and on
1:16:29
daughters yeah that's the revivaling wife has daughters
1:16:34
that are if not intentionally and deliberately trained in being reviling there by by
1:16:41
example they're being trained how to be a reviling wife when they grow up and
1:16:47
when they marry a man so it's deadly from that perspective because they have
1:16:52
an in inbred contempt for men because their mother does
1:16:57
and it's like I'm not going to trust any man I'm not going to entrust myself to any man I'm not going to follow any man
1:17:04
I Am Woman hear me roar you know I I'm strong and I can do whatever I want and and so
1:17:10
it's deadly for young girls that are growing up in that home but you mentioned for boys too same thing with
1:17:17
boys that they see their father Just Whipped verbally and and
1:17:23
demoralized and emasculated and if the man does not stand up and say
1:17:30
you know this is not going to keep going on we can't keep having this if he just abdicates again that young boy is going
1:17:36
to be that same kind of a young man and now we've got the problem just going down spiraling generation after
1:17:43
generation after generation and eventually someone has to stand and say look what do the scriptures say yeah
1:17:51
what does the word of God teach that's the kind of man I have to be but it is
1:17:56
very hard you know it's hard to be a leader when you don't have anyone that wants to
1:18:02
follow you isn't it yes yes you know I was like okay I'm the leader of my home I'm the head of our
1:18:08
home but the wife says I'm not following you and the wife says kids don't follow him because he's a bad man
1:18:15
it's very hard for that man to lead in his home but lead he must he must still stand and say
1:18:22
with gentleness with kindness with compassion but still be firm in his faith and say
1:18:30
I'm I'm not going to give in on this I'm not going to abdicate my role
1:18:36
so you're absolutely right it's it's like the curse that goes on generation to generation of those that hate God
1:18:43
and I'll say that as well that I probably implied it earlier
1:18:49
but these reviling wives are more than likely not born again
1:18:54
I was going to ask yeah I feel the same because there's no repentance there's no
1:19:00
sorrow there's no ownership of their sin I talked to a man yesterday that his
1:19:07
wife had just filed for divorce and she was a reviling wife I had
1:19:13
met with the two of them so I knew the situation and the man asked her
1:19:21
what part did you play in this the destruction of our marriage what part did you play in this wife
1:19:28
and she said it was 100 his fault 100 percent
1:19:33
and not only is that wrong it's the opposite of reality it's almost 100 his fault her fault
1:19:40
you know the man had some culpability in it but but nothing that would have ended the marriage nothing at
1:19:47
all and so there's that we get back to that blindness again and again it's a
1:19:53
prideful blindness it's not an innocent blindness that I just don't know any better it's a I'm digging my heels in
1:19:58
and I'm blind to the truth I'm blind to the reality that I sin just like anybody
1:20:05
else does I don't see how that person could be born again I really I really don't yeah
1:20:13
I've struggled with I've struggled with that as well you know because this is something that I'm that I mentor and counsel men through that I see very
1:20:20
often as um you know maybe they're they're the sons of reviling mothers their mothers taught them what to expect
1:20:26
from women they get into relationships with women who mirror that relationship with their mother it's a common human
1:20:32
thing that we do and then at some point the men wake up because they read a book or they encounter content and and we
1:20:38
start talking and start taking the pieces apart and it's like yeah okay I see that you're in a relationship with
1:20:44
you have a reviling wife to varying degrees and um and then they'll say but you know
1:20:50
we're in a Christian marriage it's like oh well or like you know my wife led me to Christ you know I was like and and
1:20:57
it's a very it can be very difficult to work through that I've been married for 20 years I became Christian because of her we had Christian vows and now 20
1:21:05
years on she's fully in Rebellion like hates God hates the Bible hates
1:21:11
everything and it's like I don't know was she was she ever a Christian to begin with these are no you know exactly
1:21:17
yeah no I've had the same thing I've had men that say you know my wife helped me she she got books by John McArthur and
1:21:23
John Piper and wow and this and that and and you know it really helped me as a
1:21:28
husband and a man and now she doesn't believe any of that stuff she just throws it all away and I go wow
1:21:34
really you know good you know good solid I mean all those guys are good solid guys I mean we don't agree with anything
1:21:40
they say but I go dad love to have a friendship with any of those guys and yet it's like no
1:21:46
so but we we know that knowledge puffs up knowledge is not enough it has to be
1:21:53
working in the heart doesn't it has to be changing your heart that's what the gospel does it changes and transforms
1:21:59
the heart where there's character that's developed and it's only developed by the spirit of God and what's the fruit of
1:22:05
the spirit love joy peace gentleness faithful self-control you know that that's what we look for and when we see
1:22:12
that we go that's the spirit of God working but then you look at the works of the
1:22:18
flesh we're in Galatians 5. you look at the works of the flesh what are they there's there's anger there's there's
1:22:24
all these forms there's like eight forms of anger that are mentioned there as works of the Flesh and it's like
1:22:31
that's what I see in my wife I see a lot of different forms of anger
1:22:36
but I don't see love joy peace faithfulness gentleness self-con
1:22:43
self-control I don't see that what's what's missing well don't become the judge of your wife
1:22:49
but evaluate and say boy I want to make sure those things are being built in my heart that's the fruit
1:22:55
that's the work of the spirit of God in my heart so
1:23:01
yeah the other thing I want to mention too that please um
1:23:06
when men go through this and they don't they don't get any help from their
1:23:13
Church now it goes into the secular courts
1:23:20
and now you got to play by the world's rules and the men lose yeah you played by the
1:23:26
secular court rules that the man the man loses you know years and years of child
1:23:33
support or what's called a divorce tax where you know he has to pay spousal support to his wife and and um
1:23:41
uh the church should be stepping in and saying we don't want you to go to the
1:23:47
courts we want to help you as the local church we want to Shepherd and Pastor
1:23:53
you your family and help you we're not the pastor of your family the
1:23:59
husband is the head in his home not the pastor of the family um
1:24:04
but we should be coming alongside and helping you not making it so that you have to go to the secular authorities to
1:24:11
get get resolution on this because you're not going to get resolution you go to the secular courts he's going to be a
1:24:17
train wreck and a disaster and it's got to be crazy expensive and it's going to destroy your family even more you know I
1:24:24
mean there's all kinds of things that are going to happen here so I I wish churches would take this more
1:24:31
to heart and say we have to help these men and if if there's a pastor or a
1:24:37
counselor listening to this podcast and a man comes to you Pastor or counselor
1:24:43
and he says some of these things about a reviling wife please don't dismiss him please don't
1:24:50
just say well he's obviously just a a toxic man he's obviously just a bad man
1:24:56
you know please listen to him and investigate it check it out he could be
1:25:01
deceiving you but he's probably not that's it now investigate it
1:25:09
I wanted to talk quickly if we can about some of the larger
1:25:15
societal issues that this ties to so obviously the family court system being
1:25:20
completely captured and twisted and being very anti-husband anti-father by
1:25:26
default it's like well we just default assume that the man is in the wrong and
1:25:31
we're going to take the kids from him and half of his income and we're not even going to investigate it that's just the presumption right but there's this
1:25:38
is showing up you know this General abdication to hold women accountable seems to be showing up society-wide and
1:25:45
as we were talking before we started recording it's it's widespread and these
1:25:51
are not coincidences that all these things are happening like there's something there's something larger going on and it's not just about the political
1:25:57
movement of feminism right exactly yeah no it's it's not you know politics is not the problem
1:26:04
politics is just you know kicking the can down the road um the the problem is that we don't we
1:26:10
don't have a Biblical view of anthropology we don't have a Biblical view of progressive sanctification
1:26:16
we don't have a Biblical view of christology of hamartiology of all of these things you know the study of study
1:26:23
of man the study of sin the study of sanctification you know we miss all of those things in the
1:26:28
church and it and it goes out into the society and even more to the point what the
1:26:35
society says gets into the church and it corrupts the church and then it goes back out into the society again and it
1:26:41
makes things worse so you know like we talked about a little bit in the beginning was the the
1:26:46
whole um Wok ideology is is a massive massive problem in the church
1:26:53
and I've had I've had pastors that I've talked to about that and they say oh I don't
1:26:58
believe in that stuff and I say brother you do you really do you don't you don't see it
1:27:04
well I don't embrace you know communism and Marxism and all that stuff well maybe not to that degree
1:27:10
but you're buying into it right here because you're automatically just kind of assuming
1:27:15
that you get the whole picture and and you don't so brother please please listen please
1:27:21
hear please hear what God has to say and um
1:27:27
so it's that it's that tension between gentle and compassionate
1:27:32
and being bold and forthright and say you know we have to be bold about this
1:27:37
we have to we have to be courageous and say we we have to say what is true and
1:27:43
right even if our culture opposes it because now we get back to fearing God rather than fearing man rather than
1:27:50
fearing the state rather than fearing what um a reviling wife might say or a church
1:27:57
might assume about you because you're just defending yourself
1:28:04
another thing um don't agree with a lie
1:28:11
so in other words if a man says well my wife is accusing me of this
1:28:16
and if I don't go along with her she's going to get really mad at me
1:28:24
don't just go along with her to keep peace yeah because all it is is a ceasefire it's not peace yeah you know
1:28:32
we have a ceasefire with China right now don't we but we don't have peace with
1:28:37
China okay nobody's killing each other at least overtly but would anybody say well
1:28:44
we have peace with China it's like well no we're just waiting for the next thing to come
1:28:50
same thing in the reviling wife in the marriage you can't just make peace your ultimate
1:28:56
goal you have to glorify God in your marriage you have to lead in your family you have
1:29:02
to honor the Lord Jesus Christ in what you do that's what you're called to you know
1:29:08
we're supposed to love the Lord Our God with all our heart our soul our mind and our strength that's the greatest commandment
1:29:15
and if we don't love truth enough to stand on the truth then we really don't love God with all our heart do we
1:29:22
or with all our mind yeah so you know the church should be
1:29:28
leading the culture on this and yet as we've seen for decades now the church follows the culture on this
1:29:36
and then we see these political things going on we're like why is that happening well our churches are not
1:29:43
honoring our churches are not faithful to God's word and um
1:29:50
and yet I know many great pastors good Brothers I've been here in the valley for 30 years and I've got a lot of good
1:29:56
friends that that love the Lord and love his word but I've also seen a number of them
1:30:03
lately in the past four or five years they've just abdicated yeah and just
1:30:10
kind of gone along with the culture in the world and I go
1:30:15
don't you understand that the world the Biblical term World means a society
1:30:21
and Rebellion against God why would you follow that is that what that is that an
1:30:26
actual that's an actual biblical term yeah the term world you look at it in first John and the Gospel of John you
The Meaning of "World"
1:30:32
know don't love the world or the things of the world what's he talking about he's not talking about the planet
1:30:37
he's not just talking about the people he's talking about the whole society that's in Rebellion against God that
1:30:43
doesn't want to follow God Hmm this is why we see all the
1:30:48
the gender confusion things yeah I was going to use the word transgender but it's not a real legitimate word it's not
1:30:55
a make-believe word it's good yeah it's a good point or like gay marriage that's not a it's not a real thing either not a
1:31:01
thing it's a make-believe world word but um you know we have to stand on
1:31:07
truth and we can stand on that with love we don't have to mock people we don't have to ridicule people we say no this
1:31:14
is what God says well who are you to say What God Says he wrote a book you know I got a I got a
1:31:20
book with 66 books in it that tells me what God says you know yeah and the author of that book says I'm the way and
1:31:26
the truth and the life no man comes to the father but by me I didn't make that up he said it not me
1:31:35
so but that's the way of Peace and Freedom Joy all the things that people want all
1:31:41
the things that people are craving and desire it comes through the good news it comes through the gospel it comes
1:31:47
through God working in the hearts of man and forgiving sin and becoming their
1:31:53
Lord he's their King and he will he will take care of everything in their life
1:32:00
so um I I think we have to we have to have
1:32:07
that that boldness and that courage will I mean I think that's what's really necessary but we have to have the
1:32:14
word of God as the authority the scriptures have to be the authority
1:32:19
um you know second Timothy 3 16 and 17 all scripture is breathed out
1:32:25
by God so all of it's breathed out by God and profitable for teaching for reproof for correction and training and
1:32:33
righteousness that the men of God may be complete and equipped for every good
1:32:39
work do we believe that we really believe that is breathed out by God and here's what
1:32:47
it does it does all these things we can't just add psychology to that or
1:32:53
Psychotherapy and say well we're going to come out with something better it's like no you're going to dilute what the word of God says you're gonna
1:32:59
you're gonna compromise on what the word of God says so we stand
1:33:04
boldly with that like Martin Luther here I stand I could do no other
1:33:10
God help me that that's where we have to be I think a lot of men
1:33:17
need first need to hear that message and but I think ultimately the bottom of many many Christian men uh would rather
1:33:25
listen to the word of woman rather than the word of the lord they're not they're
1:33:30
simply not strong enough constitutionally at the moment with spine and heart to really stand in the
1:33:36
word of the Lord and say no this is this is how it is this is how it is and if you think
1:33:43
proverbs 31 3 do not give your strength to women yeah it doesn't say to a woman it says
1:33:51
don't give your strength to women you know we're letting women lead and
1:33:56
they should not be leading and we're afraid we're afraid afraid to take the leadership Reigns from them
1:34:02
we're afraid to even say that to breathe that to them like you're not supposed to be leading I got a book that says it
1:34:09
right here we know because they can't stand up yeah
1:34:15
don't we can't fear we can't uh we can't back down we lovingly lead we
1:34:22
graciously lead we we say no this is what God says this is what we have to do
1:34:29
now a uh a woman with a good heart is going to
1:34:34
say boy great I'm protected yes that's what I want I want a man like
1:34:40
that but if a woman is listening to that and she hears this man is Harsh he's wicked he's cruel
1:34:48
he's domineering he's oppressed you're not hearing it you're not hearing it right because there are there's good men
1:34:54
like that out there I could introduce you to dozens of them I know a lot of these guys you know and
1:35:01
I'm sure you're one of them will from what I no views like yep I know plenty of men like that and um
1:35:08
uh but women think they're going to be happy by ruling and they're not
1:35:15
they're going to find that it's it's going to destroy him so it can destroy society as well
1:35:22
absolutely you see it around us destroy them destroy families destroy churches destroy Society it's it is
1:35:31
destructive sadly it's destructive do you have time for one or two more questions I know we're we're deep into
1:35:37
it at the moment yeah a couple more go ahead yeah okay so there was something that you brought up a while back that is
1:35:44
so important to the book and I want people to understand it because it's such a powerful phrase I wonder if you
1:35:49
can unpack your feelings are not sovereign because we live in an age that worships
1:35:55
feelings and certainly and certainly women are in many ways led by their feeling and their intuition which is one
1:36:00
of the reasons why we love them but there can also be a point at which the feeling is the one that takes control
1:36:07
so you and you did a great job with that in the books I wonder if you could talk about that idea
1:36:12
yeah the feelings are sovereign idea is that um a woman feels something and therefore in
1:36:21
her mind it's absolutely true and and you know and I mean on the surface you look at that you say well
1:36:27
that's kind of silly nobody does that do they go oh yeah they do yeah I've seen women that that say that uh
1:36:34
well you you have um uh
1:36:40
you have this idea that you are supposed to lead me and I feel like that is
1:36:46
oppressive I feel like that is Harsh I feel like this is
1:36:53
um not giving me freedom and the man will say well I'm really not trying to do
1:36:58
that um as I'm just remembering an example from
1:37:04
counseling from years ago where I literally had the husband and wife in my office
1:37:10
good and they're good friends today this is an example of a wife that's repentant about Corey violent so it's a good story
1:37:18
um but at the at the time I'm like this is just crazy what's going on so the husband and wife are talking and the
1:37:24
husband is describing something he's describing a situation he's very calm he's very gentle
1:37:30
he's not harsh or anything and the wife turns to him
1:37:35
and she says you're you're just a phony you're a fake
1:37:41
you're a fraud I feel like you are just you're just making the stuff up and you're not really like that and and you
1:37:48
know she's just accusing of all of these things because she felt that he was being fake and the husband turns to her
1:37:55
and says what what are you talking about what do you what do you mean and she says no you're really angry
1:38:01
right now you're saying things in a soft and gentle way but you're really angry right now
1:38:07
he's like no I'm just saying things very gently and you know and I know it's comical Now you listen to it now I'm
1:38:13
just watching this unfold in my office and I'm like what what is going on here every man's been through this yeah so I
1:38:19
stopped the conversation I said okay wife um he's gentle right yeah he's gentle
1:38:25
he's very soft-spoken yep he is and you know I just run through what I was seeing with the man
1:38:31
and I said but you see him as being angry when he's doing that yeah absolutely I know he's I know him so
1:38:38
well I know his heart I said oh wait a minute wait a minute you're assuming something about him
1:38:45
that's absolutely the opposite of that if he was harsh and banging his hand on the table and jabbing his finger in your
1:38:52
face and doing then I'd say okay he probably is Harsh and angry and mean right now but that's not the case he's
1:38:59
the opposite of that why would you judge his heart so harshly well it's because that's what I feel but I feel that way
1:39:07
so she didn't say the words but my feelings are sovereign and and so in this case
1:39:14
it just took a lot of time with her and kind of walked her through that and she she eventually saw that she was
1:39:21
being quite foolish and judgmental she repented and changed
1:39:26
but uh that's an example you know my feelings are all that matters and the
1:39:32
husband is quiet and he's soft and he's gentle well you're prideful well you're being angry right now you're
1:39:39
you're really angry even though you're using gentle words like what why what do you mean by that well I feel that's what
1:39:46
you're doing I go you can't just operate by feelings because feelings are deceptive
1:39:52
and feelings I I mean some of this comes from the enemy that you know okay attack
1:39:57
your husband now go after him because he's being a phony and a fraud and
1:40:03
um you know you you you can't just make that kind of a judgment it's irrational it's illogical it's it's cruel it's
1:40:11
vindictive so your feelings are not sovereign your feelings don't determine truth I mean
1:40:16
truth is is what's a fact so so that's an example of that where often wives
1:40:24
they're very feelings driven often they feel things and therefore they
1:40:30
assume it to be true and um you know just have to gently be
1:40:35
urged let's step back a second let's kind of think this through let's let God's word renew and change our minds
1:40:43
here because I don't think you're seeing this right so that's an example of the feelings are
1:40:50
sovereign I know I go into a lot more depth in my book on that but um I would encourage your readers to get a copy of
1:40:56
my book I don't get a lot of royalties out of this so it's not like making a bunch of money off of this but yeah
1:41:02
it'll help men and women in in a variety of ways to um to really
1:41:08
see what's going on yeah to make to make feelings your your highest Authority when feelings are are
1:41:15
subject to facts and also to the word of God that's the Sovereign Authority in
1:41:20
the room right now exactly and so I think that the last thing I want to ask is what has it been like for you in the
1:41:28
eight years since you wrote the book because I mean it was a it's a big deal to step out on these topics today and
1:41:34
you were out front on them eight years ago and as you've written the book you've watched the societal condition get worse around these very issues and
1:41:42
meanwhile again like a voice crying out in the wilderness you've been talking about this on on the front lines in a way I haven't found anyone else really
1:41:49
talking about so what's it been like for you to get to this point and what's happening for you now
1:41:55
well it's it's been a very slow thing really that um I've had men
1:42:02
over the years over the eight years since the book that have contacted me and they they always find me and they
1:42:08
say okay we want to talk with you but until about
1:42:13
a few months ago it's really been kind of quiet not really a lot of attention not really a lot of
1:42:20
um uh people that are interested to talk about it
1:42:25
until the last few months and now it's like wow it's just off the charts it's a whole it's a whole other ministry that's
1:42:31
developing now because of this yeah I've got a group of men that were
1:42:37
were strategizing and praying God what what can we do what what do we do because there's a lot of men out there
1:42:43
that that need this help and they're coming out of the woodwork and
1:42:48
um I mean literally I'm sure after this podcast I'm going to get flooded with more emails and phone calls too I hope
1:42:54
so and you know and part of me goes oh no but also part of me goes good
1:43:01
you know what I say to the men that join our online group I said I'm sorry that you're here but we're glad to help you
1:43:07
that's kind of been our motto I'm really sorry that you're here because I know what you're going through
1:43:12
but I'm glad we can help you and um we haven't gotten too much opposition
1:43:19
yet I know it's coming I know it will come eventually
1:43:25
probably because nobody knows who I am you know but I keep doing podcasts people are going to know who I am and
1:43:30
it's like okay now I am going to get you know attacks and things like that but again ultimately we go we have to
1:43:38
honor God we have to say Lord what do you want to do how can we be a part of
1:43:44
advancing your kingdom not my kingdom but yours um I'm not getting rich off of this I'm
1:43:51
not getting Financial um blessings off of this it's it's simply
1:43:58
to say let's be faithful to the word of God and that's all that I want I just
1:44:05
want the church to be honoring and glorifying the Lord and helping these
1:44:12
suffering men so um so it's been good it's it's been good
1:44:17
to see so many men getting getting help but I need help
1:44:22
with this too well I can't do it myself yeah that's why I'm glad to have these men
1:44:30
that I've been working with some of these men I've been working with them for several years and they're really
1:44:35
growing and changing in wonderful ways some of the men are new on this journey it's like man they're right in the
1:44:41
middle of it right now like some of the men that we've that you and I know and um so every man's in a different
1:44:48
different situation different place these are young men they're men in their 20s and 30s these are older men men in
1:44:55
their 60s and 70s it's not any one segment of society some of these are
1:45:01
very wealthy men some of these are men that can barely pay their bills it's not that there's nothing that's
1:45:08
common in this except that they're the gentle kind compassionate
1:45:14
sweet men not not wimpy men but men that
1:45:19
are um they're willing to go along they're not men that are insisting on
1:45:26
their way but eventually with the reviling wife you know it becomes why do you keep
1:45:34
dictating to me wife why do you think that that's your role to just insist on
1:45:40
things being your way so we get right back to Genesis 3 16 again
1:45:45
her desire is contrary to the husband so yeah God's curses are legit they are
1:45:52
yeah well thank you so much thank you so much this has been wonderful conversation and
1:45:59
I I sincerely hope and pray that this blesses many men and women listening and that they pick up your book I'll link it
1:46:05
in in the show notes and and uh be talking about it as well in the introduction you've already so
1:46:10
graciously provided your email address and phone number and website I don't know if there's other places you want to
1:46:16
send men if you have a YouTube channel or social media or anything like that or how people can donate to support your
1:46:22
ministry how would you how would you like people to be able to to support you and help you today
1:46:27
yes you know I'm I'm not really into social media very much at all yeah but
1:46:33
um you know which is probably a good thing in some ways but yes but if people
1:46:38
wish to donate to the ministry you can go to our website compassionatecounselors.com and you can
1:46:43
donate right there and that would be that would be very kind if people would
1:46:48
would do that just so we can continue doing the work that we're doing and and like I said we're going to need more
1:46:54
help and we are in the process of developing a whole another Ministry that is
1:47:00
connected to compassionate counselors you know they don't even have a name for it yet but it's something like the reviling wives Ministry to help these
1:47:07
men so um so thank you thank you for having me on well it's been great to get to
1:47:13
know you and you're a fellow Phoenician and a lover of God and lover of man and and thank
1:47:19
you thank you for the good work that you're doing
Transcript
0:00
so if you're not Discerning and thinking this through you're just going to rush to her defense and you're automatically
0:05
going to start condemning the man this is what happens and the man never gets an opportunity to
0:11
defend himself to say this is what's going on you know let me explain you know
0:17
and anything the man does to try to explain the situation now you're being defensive now you're being prideful and
0:24
you know you're obviously uh you know so upset about this and look at how mad you're getting she's probably right
0:31
about you in fact she is right about you so it just kind of snowballs from there
Introduction
0:42
my guest this week is Dr David Edgington and he's the author of the outstanding book The abusive wife but he proposes
0:49
that the term abusive while familiar isn't exactly accurate a better more biblical term is reviling which he says
0:56
quote focuses on the verbal aspect of mistreatment of others it entails using
1:01
speech as a non-contact weapon against another person to revile is to strike another person it is speech that is
1:08
Harsh and arrogant not only in tone but also in content in substance reviling speech often resorts to mocking ridicule
1:16
and insulting language within the Christian church in recent Generations pastors have specifically overlooked
1:22
this form of abuse of men in their rush to apologize for perceived wrongs of the past does this sound familiar it's not
1:29
hard to connect the dots that as pastors churches and denominations bend the need
1:34
to woke and rainbow Flags they're actually continuing a trend that began long ago succumbing to what I call the
1:41
feminist the apology that women are Eternal victims and every knee must bow to their Almighty feelings now here's
1:49
the thing David wrote his book eight years ago having been in countless biblical or new fetic counseling
1:54
sessions and seen that the husband and wife seem to be playing by different sets of rules the man imperfect as all
2:01
men are but kind accommodating and loving the woman meanwhile is Harsh controlling and unrepentant she refuses
2:09
to be held to the biblical standard of not just submissiveness but of graciousness or even kindness to the man
2:15
she married she Rebels against him in word tone and posture I've seen this in my own mentorship practice and David's
2:21
book gave me better language to talk about it now eight years after the publication of the book as American
2:27
society is being consumed in a feminist-driven conflagration it's hard not to call Dr Edgington just a little
2:34
bit prophetic and quite a bit more than heroic which is why I'm honored to have David on my podcast today not only is he
2:41
a man of great moral courage having called attention to the real world impact of these behaviors for almost a
2:47
decade he also counsels couples on how to come out of this way of being he supports men and how to survive or even
2:53
be Sanctified by it and he helps men to recover from women who have abused them left and worse and praise God there are
3:00
voices like David's calling out from the Wilderness with gentleness firmness and
3:05
an unyielding commitment to the word of God preparing the way for the great Reckoning with truth that must come
3:11
before the great reconciliation in our conversation David and I discussed his excellent book The abusive wife how to
3:18
recognize a reviled husband wokeness and Christianity women and their anger the
3:24
danger of the secular courts how abuse can sanctify us and why women's feelings
3:29
are not sovereign if you enjoy the Renaissance of men podcast thank you please like this video share it and
3:36
subscribe plus leave a comment down below letting us know if you think the image of the reviling wife it's a little
3:41
bit too close to home the Renaissance of men podcast is proudly sponsored by Reformation coffee Pastor Brandon
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4:40
lifetime streaming license there you can watch more than seven hours of content that'll help women renew their vision
4:46
for Godly femininity and please welcome this week's guest on the podcast the founder of compassionate counselors and
4:52
the author of The abusive wife Dr David Edgington David thanks so much for joining me on the podcast
Interview Start
4:59
great to be here will thanks so much for inviting me well I mean it's it's a as we discussed
5:04
it's a long chain of friends that led us here today starting with a feminine not feminist and my buddies Kevin and and
5:10
Richie so um it's a it's a real blessing to have this conversation because you know I have your book here the abusive
5:16
the abusive wife which I want to get into but you're talking about a subject that many men and many women are really
5:22
waking up to but you've been talking about it for a while so kind of leading the way is like a voice crying in the
5:29
wilderness so maybe we can get started with like what inspired you to write the book when did you write the book what's
5:34
the story behind it well first of all the um
5:40
I did a search trying to find biblically oriented books on this because I kept running into it and counseling I'm a
5:46
full-time new fedic counselor I still like the word new fetic rather than just biblical because it says something a
5:53
little more biblical yeah um and uh and I found nothing on this topic nothing
5:59
from a Biblical perspective and as far as I know there's still nothing biblical
6:04
on this issue and yet there are men out there that are
6:09
suffering so badly I mean I was I was I was weeping last night because I know so
6:16
many men personally good solid men that are not only getting
6:21
maligned and reviled that's the Biblical word reviled by their wives
6:28
but they're getting condemned not too strong a word condemned by their churches
6:33
and by the past years and by counselors even counselors that
6:39
are certified in the same group that I'm certified in and it is it is a
6:45
it's a pandemic it's it's something that is widespread I wrote my book eight
6:50
years ago wow and it's uh it's gotten far far worse I never dreamed how much
6:57
attention this subject would get and let me talk a little bit about publishing
7:03
the book too I have a a very kind recommendation from Jay Adams basically the father of biblical
7:10
counseling movement new fetic counseling and you know he and I talked about it he
7:16
really enjoyed the book he says boy this is this is really good there's nothing like this out there
7:21
and I thought that when I got a good recommendation from a solid man like that that it'd be easy to publish the
7:26
book I couldn't get any Christian Publishers to publish it not surprised they told me it's too controversial they
7:33
told me it's it's hating women I said did you read it I don't hate women I
7:39
mean it's the farthest thing from my mind some people said there's not that
7:44
this is not that big of a problem um I got all excuses and I thought this is
7:50
really strange so I had to self-publish it Amazon published it Liberal Liberal Amazon published it and
7:58
I go praise God for them you know that uh they're willing to to allow it to be self-published so
8:04
but uh but this is not this problem is not going away we're talking now in June
8:09
2023 and this is way way worse than it was in 2015 when I wrote the book yeah I
8:16
like how you know you're using such solid biblical terms to start with new
8:21
FedEx reviling condemn like these are these are this is biblical language to use to explain a problem and identify a
8:29
problem that a lot of people don't want to look at and because they don't want to look at it it's getting worse like
8:35
that's how these things tend to go exactly and I in a point of clarification people often ask why did
8:41
you use the word abusive wife why didn't you call it the reviling life and the simple reason is most people don't know
8:48
what reviling means right so I had to use a word that's common in our culture and then first two chapters I Define
8:54
well abuse is really not the best term you know abuse can talk about sexual
8:59
abuse emotional abuse again talking you know abuse becomes anything if you and I just agree on something you're abusing
9:06
me so it means really nothing but the Biblical word revile
9:11
is using words as a non-contact weapon where I seek to destroy you I seek to
9:18
not only in in in tone but also in content to destroy and and rip you apart
9:25
so um so revile um I don't know if you want to talk
9:30
about this yeah let's let's get in let's get into it yeah you know the word the word revile in John chapter 9 the man
9:38
born blind was reviled by the Jewish leaders it says they reviled him saying
9:44
you are his disciple but we are Disciples of Moses so it wasn't I don't think it was said as kindly as I
9:51
just said it it's it's that's you know you're his disciple and we're Disciples of Moses so they're trying to destroy
9:58
this man they're trying to ruin ruin him with their words um they're mocking him
10:04
uh in First Corinthians 4 12. it says that when we are reviled we bless so
10:10
there's the picture of antithesis okay when we're reviled we do the opposite we bless instead so if you want to know
10:16
what revile looks like it's the opposite of blessing someone
10:22
um Jesus when first Peter 2 23 says that when he was reviled he did not revile in return
10:30
so see verbal scorning evidences a Hardness of Heart and as we know Jesus
10:38
didn't have a hard heart he was he was perfect in every way so he didn't retaliate in the same way that that they
10:44
were going against him and then one of the most glaring ones is Matthew 15 4
10:51
where it says that whoever reviles his mother or father must be put to death
10:56
so that's telling us that this is a serious serious sin First Corinthians 5 First Corinthians 6 talks about that
11:05
reviling is grounds for church discipline we think of
11:12
uh you know sexual immorality we think of drunkenness we think of all kinds of reasons for church discipline but we I
11:20
really don't know any churches that have done church discipline on a woman for
11:25
reviling her husband I know somewhere then is accused of being real violent but uh but but not
11:33
not the woman so you know so when that's listed in the in the uh the options of
11:40
why church discipline is necessary reviling is right in there so if that's the case this is obviously serious
11:47
enough that we have to address it we have to hold everyone accountable for
11:53
this so before we go any further well I want to make a clarification too because
12:00
I am never I never deny that men are revilers too right I mean you have to
12:07
say state that because people say oh you're on this podcast the reviling wife the abusive wife you must hate women and
12:13
it's like absolutely not I know many men that that fit this description I'm not saying they they don't exist at all
12:20
they're out there too but the problem we're seeing now is that there are women out there you know men
12:26
and women sin pretty much the same amount I think yeah I think Romans 3 23
12:31
applies to everybody yes on that so asterisk all except for women
12:38
right any more than children gonna pass a nut or the elderly get a pass on it's like you know why would we expect
12:44
anything less right but but we live in such a feminized culture
12:49
right now where the feminist voice is so strong and so powerful that that women do get a pass on this
12:58
and so that's I think that's why you have me on the podcast like okay this was the abusive man you know everybody
13:03
say oh yeah no plenty of men like that but the abusive wife or the reviling wife
13:08
we're gonna see more and more people that say I know women like that
13:14
um and I and they contact me too they say I know women like that I've got some reviews that were written on Amazon by
13:21
women that say I know plenty of women like that and then I also know humble women that say you know what I have
13:26
tendencies in that direction myself so thank you for writing writing your book
13:32
yeah that and I I completely agree I've known many women like that
13:38
um you know in my family for example or um just meet them you know I I uh I
13:44
interview often I speak with a woman named Allison Armstrong and she she has a book called The
13:49
Queen's code about how to speak to men about her Awakening to the essentially to the humanity of men because she had
13:55
grown up a feminist and was taught how to relate to men in a particular way and then she realized that men are way more
14:01
complicated than just like dogs or pigs or whatever she recognizes we're actually human beings right with our own with our own way of being that's
14:07
completely different from from women almost like we're designed to be complementary to each other and so she
14:13
spent the past 30 years educating women on how to on how to speak to men and see them but she still sees this kind of
14:20
behavior all the time and she documents it in the book like women that are just they can't harm men physically in quite
14:26
the same way because they lack the physical strength but they have the ability to absolutely cut us apart with
14:33
with words um circles around men can't they that's right that's right they go around and
14:40
around around the man's like wait a minute what's going on I gotta address this and that and and he's just he's just pummeled pummeled with the words
14:46
but it's not just the the Avalanche of words not just the number of words is it
14:52
it's it's the it's the the heart behind the words it's the freight behind the
14:57
words it's the destructive it's the condescending it's the holding in contempt it's the unforgiving it's the
15:05
never apologizing that's these are all the traits that we see in the reviling life that uh you know she's Relentless
15:13
in that and you know she'll never apologize yes she'll never ask forgiveness which is you know two
15:19
different things but you'll never do either one of those very rarely will she do those things
15:24
so she's above reproach in her mind and really as the scriptures say this is
15:30
just simple pride and uh deadly Pride yes very much so and not only that they
15:36
won't the only Redemption is if you completely capitulate exactly there's no
No Escape
15:42
reconciliation there's no like if you just if we can work out the misunderstanding maybe we can come
15:47
together it's like no you I Must Destroy you totally and you have to bow the knee
15:53
to me and then and then I will release you from the suffering that's how that ends up playing isn't it amazing that
15:58
it's parallel to cancel culture woke ideology it's like boy it sounds an
16:04
awful lot like that doesn't it yes because it is that's what it is it's woke ideology
16:10
it's infiltrated good solid conservative Bible teaching churches
16:15
and we got to wake up to this we got to say wait a minute we we can't just capitulate we can't just apologize and
16:21
say you know we have to apologize to every woman who's ever made any accusation it's like
16:27
you know as I mentioned on one of the podcasts the metoo movement has has kind of gripped people in a way that says
16:34
okay just believe any woman for anything that she says and I go well I'm not going to disbelieve any woman
16:40
but I you know you have to ask some good questions you have to find out what's really going on what's what's happening
16:47
with this here's an example um one of the common phrases that you'll
16:55
hear from the reviling wife is that I don't feel safe around my husband
17:03
I don't feel safe and you know so now as a man as a man that loves women wants to
17:08
protect women wants to guard women from harm what is the typical man gonna do
17:14
even a man that's not a pastor that's not a counselor the typical man who's going to run to her defense and say whoa
17:20
boy I got to protect you because you're in danger those are emotionally charged words I don't feel safe
17:27
so if you're not Discerning and thinking this through you're just going to rush to her defense and you're automatically
17:33
going to start condemning the man this is what happens and the man never gets an opportunity to
17:39
defend himself to say this is what's going on you know let me explain you know
17:45
and anything the man does to try to explain the situation now you're being defensive now you're being prideful and
17:52
you know you're obviously uh you know so upset about this and look at how mad you're getting she's probably right
17:59
about you in fact she is right about you so it just kind of snowballs from there
18:04
so it's so instead what I do when a woman says that
18:10
to me with her husband here I I say what what do you mean you don't feel safe has he beat you as he hits you
18:18
has he threatened you has he got the knife or a gun and said if you don't do what I say I'm gonna you know is he
18:25
doing anything like that and almost without fail will they say well no he
18:30
hasn't done any of those things I said well help me understand what do you mean I don't feel safe
18:36
and usually what it comes down to is that well he's asking me to do something that I don't want to do
18:43
and I say okay is it something sinful he's asking you to do well no he's just you know I don't really want to follow
18:49
him I I know better than he does maybe you do but what does the scripture call you to
18:55
do what is the one command on God's word for you as a wife it's to submit to your husband
19:01
and that's a word that we don't want to use anymore submit it's like oh it's a the cursed s word you know it's like boy
19:08
you know don't you find yourself saying oh boy if I use the word submit with a woman she's going to come unglued on me
19:15
sometimes that's what happens and and we've been beaten down so much it's like
19:20
wait we're failing to use the biblical language that is inspired by God that
19:26
says a wife must submit to her husband now again we're not talking about a wife
19:32
that's getting beaten up a wife that's getting you know hit and knifed and threatened and and
19:38
all of that we're not talking about that you know if you're a wife in that kind of a marriage get out of there get out of the hole get your get your children
19:45
out of the home we're not saying submit to a man that's just evil and wicked however we are looking at furnaces First
19:52
Peter chapter 3 that says that even a man that's disobedient to the word the wife needs to submit to him
19:58
so even a man that's not quite getting it the wife's role is still to follow him
20:06
to submit to him and submission doesn't mean I'll go along with you as long as I
20:11
agree with you that's the other that's the other mistake that's often made is like well if my husband says something
20:17
and I agree with it then I'll submit to him I said well that's not submission no you know submission is I don't agree
20:23
with him but I willingly put myself under his authority because this is God's Authority this is the way God has
20:30
established Authority and that's where you're safe now you are safe but you go
20:35
out of that order now you really are unsafe not for the reasons you think you're unsafe but now
20:41
you're unsafe because you're disobeying not just your husband you're disobeying God
20:46
be very careful with that so I know I kind of took down on it we
20:52
were a tangent there no please this touches on so many different everything just relates doesn't it so it really
20:58
does I was listening to a Doug Wilson book uh called her hand in marriage that's about uh courtship and the
21:05
biblical courtship process exists to protect women from just that sort of
21:11
situation where you have you know a potential Suitor going to her father and having to win or earn her father's
21:18
approval because she's under she's under the headship of her father and then she's passed to the headship of her
21:25
husband right that's how that that's how that works and that process exists to
21:31
protect the woman from unrighteous ungodly men that she won't want to submit to right the father is there
21:38
vetting but when we blew apart the courtship process and created this individualized well let's just let's
21:44
just fall and have relations with each other and get our hormones all mixed up and believe that love is the most
21:49
important thing love is all you need we broke apart that um that chain that
21:54
existed for the women's benefit and now we're living in the in the aftermath of that detonation where everyone's having
22:01
to figure it out for themselves and so you have I think you have women entering into marriages carrying that Shield you
22:08
know like nope not not going to submit it's like well hold on just a second here like why did you end up with him in
22:14
the first place I've asked women that question and they don't they really don't like being asked that question yeah yes yes yeah
22:21
no just because a man is trying to lead does not make him a toxic man that's true that does not make it systemic uh
22:29
sexism um you know all of those things and and here's the other thing that's
22:34
interesting about the the husband of a reviling wife not only is there a very clear picture
22:41
of what the reviling wife looks like there's also a very clear picture of what the husband of a reviling wife
22:47
looks like yes he's usually very gentle he's very kind he's very compassionate
22:53
he loves his children he would give anything for his children sacrifice
22:58
anything for his children and yet he tends to be more on the
23:03
passive side of things he's kind of naive about things he's kind of he's kind of too gentle in some ways
23:10
so he's not a harsh angry mean cruel vindictive retaliatory man it's not that
23:17
at all he's the exact opposite of that but that's the kind of man that a
23:22
reviling wife is going to be drawn to because now she can control him
23:28
now she can you know Pummel him with words now her bitter heart comes out
23:34
even stronger because he's not a leader he's not the kind of leader that she's looking for but really she doesn't want
23:41
a leader she wants someone that's going to follow her yeah we get all the way back to Genesis 3 16 you know which is which is
23:49
where all of us started where where did all this start well that's you know that's that's where it started and I
23:54
love the esv's translation on this I think it's the most faithful to the Hebrew
23:59
um Genesis 3 16 your desire shall be contrary to your husband and he shall
24:05
rule over you so it brings out the point that the wife's desire is contrary to the husband
24:13
it's not a Godly desire it's not a kind desire because this is a result of the fall and so this is already the
24:19
Temptation for women now not every woman falls into that category and and and
24:25
plays that out in in real life but this is where this is where it began
24:31
began right at the fall of of Adam and Eve the other side of it is and he shall
24:36
rule over you that's just as ungodly that's the man oppressing the woman so there are men as we've said that are
24:43
like that as well that are harsh that are cruel that are vindictive that are you know beating their wives down
24:49
verbally and sadly many are beating them down physically as well which is wicked and sin we never never give a pass to
24:56
that but these two words in Genesis 3 16 desire
25:02
and Rule they only occur in one other place in the Bible it's in Genesis 4 7 the next chapter after Genesis 3 and and
25:11
there it's with um Cain and how sin has a desire contrary
25:17
to him but he must rule over it so it's a picture to say okay this is what it looks like sin Wants to Rule and control
25:24
and is contrary to God's Will and he has to push back on that and say this this
25:30
is not this is not allowed this is not appropriate so it kind of explains what's going on in Genesis 3 16 write in
25:37
the next chapters I mean it's no coincidence that God put those two words one chapter after the other but that's where it
25:44
comes from you know this is where because that's what people say where does this come from and um
25:50
another area that it's that it comes from also is I have found
25:56
yeah I just I've just kind of found this out because I've counseled so many of these kind of marriages
26:03
um there's usually been some very very deep and painful trauma in this wife's life
26:12
when she was a little girl she's raped she was molested
26:17
she was physically assaulted by her brothers or her father you know there's
26:22
all kinds of all kinds of things like that and so as she gets older as she
26:28
ages she gets triggered by these things with her husband even though he's not doing
26:35
the same thing it's like this just feels exactly like what my dad did to me or this feels like what that rapist did to
26:41
me and so then she projects that onto him onto her innocent husband
26:46
and you know and part of it we just go I feel so bad for these poor women what they've experienced you know so so
26:53
here's another here's another consequence another fruit of how wickedly some men have treated
27:01
women and we're seeing the consequence of that now in the marriage relationship we're seeing that wow that is
27:08
destructive in another another Avenue now and the same demonic
Passing On Abuse
27:16
um work that was done with the rapists with the man beating the little girl with the
27:22
man molesting the little girl the same demonic influence there it comes out later
27:27
in a demonic influence on the wife towards an innocent husband towards the husband hasn't done these things
27:34
so here's a whole nother Avenue I mean I know we've got so many tangents will that we could talk about no I know but
27:39
here's another one parental alienation this is this is just so it is so
27:47
Grievous it is unbelievable we've I hear these stories and I know them I know
27:53
these men I'm not making this stuff up that they get accused of the most wicked
27:58
and evil things they're like where is this coming from why would my wife or my daughter my adult daughter make these
28:05
accusations against me I was just reading one of these emails I got this morning from a man that has basically
28:11
lost everybody in his family through false accusations of sexual
28:18
molestation of rape of you know just just things you go gosh this would have
28:23
to be this wicked monster evil man to do this and yet I know this guy I've known
28:29
him for years he's not that kind of man and his story is not unique I hear it over and over
28:36
and over and over again where the where the wife becomes so embittered against
28:42
her husband that it's not enough to just divorce him then she wants to destroy him she wants
28:50
him to lose his job she wants him to lose his reputation she wants him to go to prison she wants him to just be have
28:56
no contact with anyone in the family and there are men that that I've counseled
29:03
men that are in my I have an online group of men that I meet with and their stories I mean anybody hearing
29:10
their stories would just absolutely weep over what's going on men that have not talked to their
29:16
families in years one man that has a a son a son that's not even a teenager
29:24
yet and the court has ordered him to have contact that that son to have contact
29:30
with him and the son is just yes no yes no bye and you know that's that's the
29:37
substance of the relationship so imagine what that does as I said
29:42
before to a man that already loves his family a man that already would give
29:47
anything his first family and now that family is ripped apart from him so parental alienation a whole nother
29:53
subset of the reviling wife it comes with this it comes with that territory sadly and
30:02
um you know there's a book that needs to be written on that too from a Biblical perspective I you know I've got a dozen
30:08
books in my mind that I just don't have the time or the self-discipline to get them all done right
30:14
but but it's you know you laugh at it but you cry about it you go oh Lord please help these men please
30:22
you know not only relieve them of their suffering but restore reconcile these relationships that have just been torn
30:29
apart so that's a whole a whole nother area
30:35
um maybe we should talk a little bit about what the scriptures say how it describes
30:42
a reviling wife there's a lot there's a lot in the Book of Proverbs on this
30:47
interesting interestingly enough I'll just kind of run through a few of them just always say don't uh take a lot of
30:55
time on it but Proverbs 19 13 a foolish son is ruined to his father and a wife's
31:02
quarreling is a continual dripping of rain so you know if you have a house that
31:09
doesn't have a roof that's properly sealed you can't keep out the rainy weather
31:14
but you could get alternative housing or you get your roof repaired but there's
31:19
no Escape From The Bitter contentious wife Proverbs 21 9 it's better to live in a
31:25
corner of the House Top than in a house shared with a quarrelsome wife
31:31
there's no peace there's no sanctuary in the home this this man has to go to a
31:36
corner of the House Top on the roof of the house to get away from that he's
31:41
going to the furthest point away so that he can get some peace shouldn't be this should not be
31:49
um Proverbs 25 24 it repeats the same same words as 21 nines it's interesting you
31:56
know it's a few chapters later Solomon is repeating that um Proverbs 21 19. it's better to live
32:03
in a desert land than with a quarrelsome and fretful woman so now it's taking it
32:08
to a different level so I get out of the house get off of the roof you got to go out in the desert to get away from this
32:14
constant barrage of reviling and someone that hasn't lived in that kind of a home
32:19
really can't fathom what that's like most men will say well you know every
32:25
husband and wife argue about some things we don't agree on everything I mean you know you don't agree with everything I'm
32:31
assuming you're married you don't agree you're not married okay I'm not sorry but um you know we don't uh we don't
32:37
look at that and say well it's some things that are that are difficult to put up with but
32:43
this is far in a whole separate category the reviling wife is in a way different
32:49
category um look at this picture
32:55
Proverbs 27 15-16 a continual dripping on a rainy day and a quarrelsome wife
33:00
are alike to restrain hers to restrain the wind or to grasp oil in one's right
33:06
hand grasping oil in your hand you know I can change the oil in my cars all the time
33:11
I'm still old school and I do my own oil change like yep you get that oil in your hands it's like I can't grip it I can't
33:17
hold on to it it just it just slips right through so this is again a picture
33:22
of the quarrelsome or contentious or reviling wife
33:28
um Proverbs 12 4 she who brings shame to her husband is like rottenness to his
33:35
bones so now we're talking about the Deep Soul pain that that husband goes through
33:42
these men are just broken they are just destroyed well they have gone through so
33:48
much so rather than peace and contentment she's she's like a piercing scourge
33:55
it's like a living disease in this in this men and it is so sad and again I'm
34:01
not throwing women under the bus I'm looking at this feel for these women that are so bound up in their own misery and their own
34:08
bitterness there's freedom in the gospel there's freedom in Christ there's freedom in what Jesus has done but they
34:16
they they don't see it they don't they don't want to see it in many cases yes and one more and this this passage is
34:22
probably the most descriptive the wisest of women's Proverbs 14 1 the wisest of
34:27
women builds their house but Folly with their own hands tears it down
34:33
if there's one passage that describes it the best I think that's it it's like you know she she could be wise and build her
34:39
house or or she can just be a fool just Folly and tear her house down tear
34:45
everything down tear her family down so you know so just as I mentioned that
34:52
these men will often sacrifice anything and everything for their families they
34:57
don't really care about money they don't care about your reputation they would sacrifice anything for their families
35:04
often what we see in the reviling wife is she'll sacrifice anything for her
35:09
feelings skills therefore that's all that matters
35:15
and as I mentioned in my book feelings are not sovereign feelings don't determine truth feelings are real
35:22
I know she feels the things that she says but that doesn't rule that's not
35:27
the way that we evaluate truth and what's right and what's honorable and what's holy and what's good
35:34
but if your feelings are all that count then you know you're just gonna go
35:40
you're just gonna go on her opinion on on things but what often it doesn't happen the man's feelings don't count
35:46
yeah well I just feel like I'm beaten up I just feel like I can never say
35:52
anything right I feel like I can never lead in my home I feel like you know I I asked my wife
35:58
to do something innocent and she's she's just reviling me and I I don't understand why what am I doing wrong
36:06
it's not that the man is necessarily doing anything wrong some if he is then we we address that we
36:13
want biblical conviction and we call him to repent but if it's not we look at the wife and say we have to hold you
36:20
accountable if we love you we'll hold you accountable
36:26
thank you for all of that um because it's it's all it's all very real and I think I think many men
36:32
listening will relate to this uh one of my friends is a man named Eric Carroll from Dad talk today very popular like
36:39
200 000 followers on Facebook primarily serving divorced ads and one of his
36:46
um one of his big themes that he talks about is Dad deprivation parental alienation and and there's actually a
36:53
phenomenon now where you know parents will get divorced the wife will get
36:58
remarried to another man and tell this other man such horror stories about her
37:04
ex that the man will then go murder the husband and those are starting to happen or she just people are losing lives over
37:11
it and there's a very there's a very moving story about that one one thing I wanted to say is that
37:18
nothing that happened to you in childhood legitimizes your mistreatment of another
37:24
person absolutely ever true it doesn't matter whether you were locked in a
37:31
dungeon and mistreated man or woman that does not give you the right to mistreat
37:36
someone in your future who had nothing to do with it ever ever absolutely no that's I'm glad you
37:44
clarified that because I probably did not but that's it's implied but yeah absolutely true and um
37:52
you know people that have been through these traumatic things there's a real bitterness that's taken roots in their
37:58
hearts yeah Hebrews 12 talks about a root of bitterness and it has to be pulled out and the only thing that can
38:04
pull it out is Jesus the gospel the only thing that can pull that out and they have to embrace it and say okay I was
38:12
wickedly sinned against there's no no question about that is black and white
38:17
you know whether it's locked in a basement or raped or gang raped horrible thing God have mercy on on men
38:24
that have done that to to young women especially um but that woman has got to walk in
38:31
Freedom she does not get an excuse for sin do she does not get the freedom to say well I can treat men this way
38:38
because of how wickedly I was treated no we don't retaliate we bless instead we
38:44
instead of condemning we we bless you know you know we would not that I'm
38:49
saying have contact with the the wicked man that did this right but the innocent man that you're married to now he didn't
38:56
do that but you know will they're blind to that they don't they don't see it
39:02
and it's the same thing that I see with pastors and counselors they're they're blind to these things
39:09
and there's two types of blindness I think at least two different types the one kind of blindness is an innocent
39:15
blindness they don't know any better they don't understand they haven't been taught they haven't been instructed they
39:21
haven't studied the scriptures enough it's kind of an innocent blindness okay okay I just I just don't get it
39:27
but the more frightening one is the prideful blindness yeah people
39:33
have tried to help them people have tried to tell them people have given them biblical information again whether
39:38
this is the wife that's been through the trauma or whether it's the pastor or counselor who is trying to help the
39:45
family there's a lot of pride in counselors and in pastors that keeps
39:53
them from seeing this problem I've talked to them that they don't they
39:58
don't want to see it they go well I'm going to have to admit that I'm wrong then oh and and it's like you know that that's
40:05
what they're saying inside they're not coming right out and saying I don't want to examine all the evidence
40:10
and um you know and the way it begins is
40:16
if you separate the husband and wife in counseling this is the most deadly part I don't even remember if we talked about
40:22
that I know we've talked about what's in the book it's in the book yeah but um separating the husband and wife and the
40:29
counseling in other words just counsel the wife alone and then just counsel the husband alone very deadly very wrong
40:35
absolutely the wrong thing to do and um here's what the scripture says Proverbs
40:42
18 13 if one gives an answer before he hears it's Folly and shame
40:47
so don't give an answer until you hear the whole story until you hear everything that's going on if you think
40:54
you can solve marital Strife but just hearing one side it's not going to go well
40:59
people are innocent until they're proven guilty not guilty until they're proven innocent you know this is this is
41:06
America I mean we still mostly believe that you know we've seen some weaponizing of the justice system
41:12
lately that uh that's the way our country was founded has founded on biblical principles that you have to
41:18
hear the whole story you have to give someone the opportunity to defend themselves um a few verses later Proverbs 18 17 the
41:26
one who states his case first seems right until the other comes and examines him
41:32
so you know I I can't tell you how many counseling situations they sound so
41:38
one-sided until the other spouse tells you the rest of the story you know like Paul Harvey used to say here's the rest
41:44
of the story you know we got to hear the whole side of the story not just hear one aspect of it and make a conclusion
41:52
based on that we've got to hear the whole story so we need the husband and wife together when these um situations
41:59
come up uh Proverbs 20 verse 19 whoever goes about slandering reveals Secrets
42:05
therefore do not associate with a simple babbler or a gossip when you counsel
Avoiding Separate Counseling
42:12
only one person at a time you're encouraging gossip you're encouraging
42:17
them to gossip about the other person and they're gonna you know they're gonna make the other person look bad this is
42:23
why when I counsel people I always request I say please husband and wife I want you both to come together
42:29
so that I can get the whole picture I don't want I don't want you to innocently gossip I don't want you to
42:35
wickedly gossip either I don't want you to you know to say something with your spouse not there
42:40
because it'll give you the wrong impression some people just innocently do that some people do it because they
42:45
want to destroy the other person but um this is this is what happens
42:52
um when we counsel separately and one more verse Proverbs 26 20. for lack of wood the fire goes out and where there
42:59
is no Whisperer quarreling ceases so if if they're both together one party
43:06
cannot tell the secrets of the other person that the other person doesn't want them to hear they they can't do
43:11
this if they're both there together you get the full picture so no so in essence you know the wife says XYZ and the
43:19
husband says well it's real not really the whole story here's the other part of that oh okay that gives me the counselor
43:25
the ability to discern what's going on and say okay not that she's trying to throw him under the bus but if I just
43:32
listen to her I would just assume he's this horrible Wicked Man this is what's happening
43:39
this is exactly what's happening at a lot of these counseling cases I've got many of them I could give stories
43:45
and these men have given me permission permission to tell their stories they won't give you their names but telling their stories that um pastors and
43:52
counselors will talk to the wife and the wife will say something like I don't feel safe like we talked about before
43:59
and the counselor makes up his mind and says boy this this is a terrible situation this man is just this is he's
44:05
a real problem I've had cases where they never talk to the man they don't even ask the man will
44:13
you talk to us they just make the determination they condemn him they're judge jury and
44:18
executioner and it's over it's done now I will say that I when I ask
44:25
husbands and wives please let's both of you counsel together sometimes the wife won't she says no I
44:32
don't want to cancel with you oh wow and I go okay why not well I'm not going
44:37
to any man or any biblical counselor or anything like that yeah so I go okay I'm not going to just leave the man hanging
44:44
up now I'm going to help him but I always ask please husband and wife please both come even if even if I'm
44:52
hearing that it's a reviling wife I still I have to hear her voice and hear
44:57
what she has to say I can't just assume just because the man says she's reviling that she is I have to hear them both
45:05
but if she won't even come for counseling I mean what other conclusion can I draw
45:10
so so that's the sad part and this is what's happening this is
45:16
I was telling somebody the other day it almost reminds me of the Salem witch trials in some ways that the man is the
45:22
scourge he's the wicked one he's condemned he's the evil one he's he's the one you know we don't even have to
45:28
get his testimony and um that's just that's just wicked and evil
45:35
and gossip type of count it's slander as well and it's tearing families apart
45:42
staring children apart from their parents and it's um you know again we get back
45:49
to this has got to be the enemy of our souls that's doing this the accuser of the Brethren that is
45:55
that is behind these things it's it's it's not being done in a corner either
46:00
will this is not well these are just rare very unusual circumstances no it's not
46:08
at all a lot of these men won't talk about it to anybody else because they get shut down
46:15
or because they're so embarrassed it's like it's humiliating to tell somebody what happened with my wife
46:21
it's humiliating to to say this is what my wife is doing and a lot of these men say
46:28
instead of my wife just reviling me non-stop I I wish she would just hit me
46:34
um that's how bad it is and then sadly many of them do I cover
46:40
that in my book too that many many of these women they do resort to physical violence
46:46
and um oh I had a had a story I wanted to
46:52
tell you about with that too um yeah please go ahead
46:57
I don't I have it written down somewhere but I'll just go by go by memory it was a case
47:02
with a man with a reviling wife and she was mad at him about something I
47:09
don't remember what it was but it was something insignificant something very small and so she just came unglued on him and
47:16
started just flailing at him physically hitting him hitting him hitting him over and over and over again
47:24
and um and he grabbed her wrists to keep her from hitting him
47:31
and she she was still she was kicking him she was doing this she was doing that and he and he said
47:38
you crazy and then he used the word that rhymes with which sure I think it's in my book
47:44
and um and so the police were called and you
47:50
know he became an ugly scene and so then the husband and wife are describing the scene so they're
47:56
pastor and their counselor and the pastor hears the story and then
48:02
he says well husband why did you use that word
48:09
you know the husband's like really that's what you're going to focus on
48:14
I mean she was flailing at me she was flailing on him like a wicked demon and
48:20
and all you have to say is why did you use that that bad word with your wife and you know that's that's what happens
48:27
it's like okay the guy is always guilty yeah and you know if that's the case it's like well the man's never going to
48:33
be not even neutral he's never going to win but he's never even going to be neutral
48:39
and as far as I know they never held that wife accountable for what she did to her husband and she was just disagreeing with him
48:45
about something it wasn't something harsh wasn't he wasn't calling her to sin he wasn't you know insisting that
48:51
she do something but uh um she just didn't want to do it and she was so full of Fury
48:58
that she was just flailing on him and he just held her wrists you know just just
49:04
right here not self-defense not choking her not you know nothing like that not getting her not slapping her not kicking
49:10
her and yet the counselor said what use that word for husband wow
49:17
that's what these men are up against and and again these are good pastors I
49:23
mean they're good counselors they they know the Lord they know God's word and that they just push it aside
49:30
and in essence they become bad counselors yeah yeah you know I know a
49:36
lot of these guys I mean the friends of mine I mean I know I know these guys and I go what what's going on no no no you
49:41
don't you don't understand the whole story so well I've talked to both parties I mean what what are you missing here well no you're
49:48
just you're just seeing what you want to see I go no I think it's the other way around you're seeing what you want to
49:54
see brother and um and there's where the pride comes in I'm above reproach I'm the pastor I'm
50:00
the counselor I see everything perfectly and you can't correct the pasture or the counselor then
50:06
so now I mean I've made plenty of blunders and mistakes as a pastor as a counselor
50:12
you know I don't claim to be they have a corner on the market of truth but
50:18
if if it's clear in the word of God that we should be counseling couples
50:24
together why aren't we doing that we're setting the men up
50:30
oh yeah we're abandoning men are abandoned they're they've been abandoned by their pastors
50:36
they've been abandoned by their society they've been abandoned by their fathers and when a woman decides that she's
50:43
gonna take a chunk out of a man with her words with her shame with her vitriol in
50:50
private and in public it happens often too there's no constraints on her at all
50:57
there's no one that can tell her anything and meanwhile TV magazines you
51:03
know the web is like you know you you go girl you're the strong independent hero
51:09
you don't need no man and the movie's reinforce all of this all the heroes
51:15
being shamed by the woman that shows up over and over and over again and there's no and and I can understand being in the
51:22
secular world where there's no constraint on that because they've thrown off God's law but you would think
51:27
that once you can come under the safe hierarchy of a church that a pastor might be able to consult the whole word
51:34
of God and identify a sin for what it is and hold the women accountable but when even the last line of defense won't do
51:41
anything won't speak up and say that's wrong that's sinful we're holding you
51:47
accountable in front of the church body when a pastor won't do that you're leaving men defend for themselves yeah
51:53
and that's love isn't it isn't that love to hold one another accountable absolutely it is I mean you know if if
51:59
you and I are friends and we love each other and we see sin in each other I mean you're going to gently approach you
52:04
would gently approach me or I would approach you and say Hey Brother I don't think this is a good idea you
52:10
know this seems like it's against God's word what do you think and you would hope that you would look at it and say yeah you're you know
52:16
you're right or or that I would look at and say yeah it's what you say is is
52:21
true but this is this is what happens What You Know The Narrative of the reviling
52:28
wife what does she want you know that's the question what does she really want what is what is she
52:34
doing what's what's this all about here's here's what I hear
52:39
and you tell you draw the conclusion you tell me what summarizes all of these things um I want my Independence
52:47
I don't want anybody to tell me what to do I don't need a man to make me happy
52:54
I want to live my own life I don't like the traditional family
53:02
being a mother is not a fulfilling role to me what is that
53:08
feminism it's feminism exactly what it is and yet that's The Narrative of the
53:13
reviling life those are the things she'll you're going to have listeners that are hearing this now and say oh
53:18
yeah I know women like that or maybe a woman that will hear that and say yeah that that is me and and here's my appeal
53:25
to women that are listening right now I don't hate you I don't despise you
53:32
I I want you to humble yourself under God's Mighty hand and listen to the word
53:38
of God and let it work in your soul and change you from being filled with yourself
53:45
to being filled with the presence of God and say it is a Godly thing to submit to
53:52
a man even an imperfect man which every man is I mean me included but this is
53:58
that's all all men in this club raise your hand that's all we're all raising our hands yeah well so
54:04
um this is how you obey and honor God this is how you follow Jesus Christ so
54:13
don't look at this and say I I've got to have my Independence I I don't need a man to be happy now I'm not saying you
54:20
have to be married to be happy but if you are married and you're miserable in your marriage
54:27
get help get new fetic help and meet with the counselor with your spouse so
54:34
that he can help you both and hold you both accountable when I count even when
54:40
I counsel men with reviling wives
54:45
I still hold the man accountable because of his reaction to what she's doing to him so in other words her reviling of
54:52
him does not give him the freedom to revile her back I mean we saw that in
54:58
Jesus right first Peter 2 and he was reviled he did not revile in return so it's like husband you can't revile or in
55:03
return yeah but she's she's doing this no you don't get a pass on this either you have to be a godly man before her
55:11
even in the midst of your trial even in the midst of your suffering that you're going through I know this is hard I know
55:19
this is painful I know it feels hopeless but it's not
55:24
it's not hopeless so so this is one of the things that I urge upon men with um
55:33
understanding what's going on what's God doing
55:38
what does he expect from me and I tell men this and they usually
55:44
don't get it at first but eventually they go I see what you mean now
55:49
this is going to be the most sanctifying time in that man's life what he's going through with the
55:56
reviling wife he's going to grow more through the trials he's enduring then
56:01
through all of the peaceful wonderful happy easy things in his life
56:07
I think we find that in our lives that the deeper and the darker the affliction
56:13
the more readily God can work and change us and that's what happens with these men
56:19
that really pursue the Lord with all their heart they don't just play Church
56:25
they're not just religious they're not just going through the motions they say all right Lord work in me there's things
56:31
about me why is this hurting me so badly well first of all First Peter 1 6 says
56:38
that some of our trials are necessary you know these are necessary if necessary you've been grieved by various
56:45
trials so first of all we look at that say okay this is this is needful I may not want
56:50
it but it's part of God's plan for me and it's not that the man is a bad man
56:57
it's not that he's a man full of sin but he needs these trials to be the school
57:02
in which God teaches him so what are some of the things that God teaches him one of the things he teaches
57:08
is compassion patience the King James translates the word
57:14
patience as long suffering makes it a very Vivid picture doesn't it long you have to be willing to suffer a long time
57:21
that's what a patient man looks like in Colossians 3 12 says to put this on
57:27
put on patience put on compassion put on meekness put on these things you have to
57:35
desire to become that kind of man through what you are enduring it'll make
57:40
you a better man the suffering is hard and painful and and it is very very much debilitating at
57:49
times that it will refine you it will sanctify you it will change you this is
57:55
what God is doing in that um a man will learn a lot about forgiveness
58:01
Matthew 6 verses 14 and 15 says for if you forgive the sins of others then
58:08
you'll be forgiven but if you don't forgive then you're not forgiven so forgiveness is not a peripheral idea in
58:16
Scripture it is Central and the only part in The Lord's Prayer which is Matthew 6 9 through 13.
58:23
the only part of that prayer that is repeated is in verses 14 and 15. the two verses
58:30
right after it are about forgiving forgiving one another this is what's the
58:36
hardest part for us to do is to forgive but it's also the most freeing and the
58:42
Beautiful and the proof of the work of God in your heart you are forgiving man that that's evidence that you are born
58:49
again you're not forgiving it's evidence you're not born again you say I can't
58:54
forgive I can never let that go that's giving the impression that well there's no hope for me I can't uh you
59:02
know I I there's there's no way that I could ever forgive my wife or what she did so same thing works for the wife
59:07
towards the husband too whatever she's holding against him she has to forgive him but again this is
59:13
a sanctifying thing this is what God is doing this is what God is sowing in the man's heart through all of his
59:19
afflictions and trials the man's going to learn about anger and bitterness and repentance from that
59:27
um Ephesians 4 31 talks about that Hebrews 12 15 we alluded to that before
59:33
about put it all away anger wrath slander bitterness let put it all away
59:39
from you we've got to get get that out of our Lives because it's not going to be constructive there is a place for
59:45
righteous anger but often I think what we do is we we justify our anger by saying well it's
59:51
righteous so therefore it's okay it's like be very very careful with that the
59:56
word of God calls us to repent from anger it's very destructive it can really harm
1:00:02
it can do some good with men that say I care about Justice I care about
1:00:08
righteousness okay good but be careful don't stay in that anger very long because it will destroy you it'll
1:00:15
destroy your witness your testimony and everything else but um
1:00:21
a man's going to learn boy why did I get so angry at what she said to me what she did to me
1:00:27
this is another another sanctifying time for that man um
1:00:34
learning how to Lament we don't talk very much about that either
1:00:39
Sorrows lamentation we've got a whole book in the Bible called the Lamentations right Jeremiah wrote it
1:00:46
and you see you know Jeremiah just as hard as Rift I mean he's called the weeping prophet well why he's lamenting
1:00:53
over the sins of his people and over the consequences of those sins upon an
1:00:58
entire nation and if you look at Lamentations chapter three it's really interesting
1:01:05
because he says you did this God you did this you did this you did no God did
1:01:11
these things like okay what does he mean by that and at the end of Lamentations three he's he's talking about learning
1:01:17
to wait on God so it's designed to draw the man to the Lord lamenting towards
1:01:24
God not lamenting in self-pity not lamenting in in feeling sorry for
1:01:30
yourself woe is me but lamenting in a sense of the loss that I have and I'm
1:01:35
waiting on God to restore and to bless and to change me and to soften my heart
1:01:43
sometimes that takes a long time but that's what's going on well I wanna I wanna jump in here and I say what about
1:01:50
her so I understand that we're being that a man can be put through this trial and
Supprting Reviled Men
1:01:56
let's say she's doing everything short of physical violence she's not standing over the bed with a knife right but the
1:02:02
the and let's say that it's a the couple doesn't have kids that's all because that's a whole other complex but she's
1:02:09
verbally abusive rebellious actively on a daily basis shaming and
1:02:15
public and in private gossiping about her husband even ruining his professional opportunities with her
1:02:21
loose mouth like she's doing everything she can to persecute her husband there's part of me that says yes absolutely to
1:02:30
everything that you're saying sanctification for real but there's another part of me that's like we can't
1:02:35
just leave this man to die in this dungeon for a woman who has no intention
1:02:41
to ever repent and who actually just wants to punish him out of the pure
1:02:46
Wicked bitterness of her heart is there no no and there's no hope for this man
1:02:51
do we just I mean I obviously the Lord is with him and and yes and but there is
1:02:57
a component of like the Lord helps those who help themselves can he leave can he
1:03:03
just say you know what I've had it I'm gonna I'm gonna move out we made a marriage covenant I get that not going
1:03:09
to get a divorce right but I'm gone like you don't get to pretend that you're in a relationship anymore I'm not going to
1:03:15
allow myself to be subject to this anymore at what point at what point can
1:03:20
a man simply say that you know I've had enough dialogue pardon my language but I don't know how else to say it yeah no
1:03:28
it's it's it's a it's a great question it's a great point
1:03:33
and it shows the compassion for the man yeah to even ask that question
1:03:38
because I know you're not asking it in the sense of saying I want this man to have an easy way out
1:03:44
no you know because that's not what we want and sometimes
1:03:50
the um the trials the afflictions that's God's
1:03:56
goal with the man so that he learns and grows and changes it's not
1:04:02
not about the marriage it's about him think of the Book of Job for instance
1:04:07
here we have job that he loses his children he loses his health
1:04:14
he loses the love of his wife and then even his friends turn against
1:04:20
him yeah it loses his kids yeah so he's he's got everything and he's lost his business too he's all of
1:04:26
his livestock's gone I mean he he's lost everything literally and then not only does he lose his
1:04:33
friends but he calls them worthless Physicians miserable comforters
1:04:41
and you go through the whole book of job and you're just waiting you're waiting for the answer okay God why why why
1:04:50
and you never get the answer do you because if you get the answer and say well this is why God did it then you
1:04:57
would say well that was that was the reason that's the purpose of all of this
1:05:02
but I think because it's left unexplained it's left unsaid why God did this
1:05:08
it's telling us what the answer is it's telling us that this is for the man to draw near to the
1:05:15
Lord and find that peace in his soul that only God can bring because nothing
1:05:20
in the world is going to bring it not his wife not his children that he's lost
1:05:27
not his three friends who are sadly
1:05:32
um you know erstwhile friends you know their former friends really they really are not acting like friends at all
1:05:39
he's um he's lost everything except for one thing
1:05:44
he's he's not lost his relationship with God and he is changed and grown and
1:05:50
Sanctified through that and so by the end of the books chapter 42 you see God rebuking the men
1:05:59
and saying job's going to pray for you because job has done what is right
1:06:05
and so you see that you know the men that I've talked to I urge them read the book of job again with new eyes with
1:06:11
fresh eyes and see see what God is doing
1:06:16
um he's trying to refine you he's trying to change you
1:06:22
and not that you're a bad man not that you're an evil man
1:06:27
but he wants you to be a better man he wants to be a better father a better husband a better leader now
1:06:33
I know I haven't totally answered your question it's like David you're still avoiding my questions like well
1:06:40
I don't understand I'm not really avoiding it I I don't want any men out there
1:06:45
to look at this and say well I've got justification to leave my marriage because of what
1:06:52
David and will talked about on the podcast I don't want men to have right that kind of a thought in their mind
1:06:59
because I think every case has to be looked at individually and examined and these men need help
1:07:07
they need somebody to come alongside of them not to condemn them but to talk with them and say okay let's
1:07:14
let's address this let's address that let's address your sin husband let's address the things that that you are
1:07:20
doing wrong not things that are causing your life to be this way but let's let's address those things let's not just run
1:07:27
away and get out of this marriage but you know it's easy for you and me to say that it's like I'm not in that marriage so let's let's
1:07:33
does hold on you know it's easy for us to say that but I don't want to make it easy for the
1:07:39
man to say I've got full justification to get out of this marriage too right that's too
1:07:45
much that's what a lot of men will do that are that are listening to this and I don't I don't want that I mean I hold I hold marriage in very very high regard
1:07:53
and yet I do no I do know that many of these men that
1:07:58
have counseled they lost their marriages and yet very few of the men
1:08:05
filed for divorce there's a few of them but very few of them did It's usually
1:08:10
the wife that does even though she's the guilty one even though she's the one doing the reviling
1:08:17
and the bitter controlling angry Wicked one what I do instead will is I encourage
1:08:25
the men to lovingly and kindly fear God rather than they
1:08:31
fear their wives stand and Lead don't back down
1:08:37
don't be mean about it don't be cruel don't be just yelling at your wife and saying you've got to submit to me woman
1:08:42
you know not any of that kind of nonsense but just lead be the man that God calls
1:08:49
you to be and now if the wife leaves you go well I've done what God wants me to do yes
1:08:55
I'm eating in a way that's oppressive I'm not ruling over my wife in a harsh way
1:09:01
but I'm kind of I'm putting everything forward so that okay
1:09:07
wife I I have led you in the wrong way I've been too passive
1:09:14
I have equivocated I've abdicated I have been complicit in things
1:09:20
and I've compromised I can't do that anymore because I have to fear God more than I fear you so I'm
1:09:26
gonna start making some changes and some things that are going to be different now I want you
1:09:33
to join me in let's glorify and honor God together
1:09:40
have a conversation something like that with your reviling wife now she may just blow up and say you know you're just a
1:09:46
toxic man and you know all that stuff or maybe she'll hear it and listen and say okay
1:09:55
okay I'll follow you yes rare rare but I have seen it I have seen it happen
1:10:02
but if she leaves now then the man can say look I've done everything I can
1:10:08
amen I have been the man that God calls me to be and if she leaves so be it
1:10:14
most of these men even after their wives divorce them and leave them they still love their wives they still oh I wish
1:10:21
you would recognize I wish you would come back I wish you know and sadly eventually there has to come a
1:10:28
point where the man has to say I just have to let her go not out of hatred not out of an abandonment but she doesn't
1:10:34
want to be under my authority and under my protection she's made that clear
1:10:40
she's on her own now yeah so I haven't directly answered your
1:10:46
question no you did that's what I'm that's the way I I try to help men because I
1:10:51
I don't want this to be a get out of jail free card same and yet
1:10:57
I just grieve for what these men are going through I just go oh this is so so
1:11:03
painful so lonely so hard and very few people understand what
1:11:09
they're enduring very very few you know I've had contact from
1:11:16
maybe two or three pastors and counselors around the nation
1:11:22
that have contacted me and said wow I like what you've said on your podcast
1:11:28
hopefully there'll be more with the podcast yeah but you know two or three
1:11:35
out of the thousands that have heard this and I go what's wrong with this picture am I a
1:11:41
bad guy are you a bad guy I mean are we just scratching where nobody's itching it's
1:11:46
like oh no we're scratching right we're men are riching and they're like man I need help here please please help me
1:11:54
I got a call this morning from a guy in Canada from British Columbia Canada that heard one of the podcasts and I go okay
1:12:02
what's what's going on with with you same story same exact thing it's it's almost like
1:12:09
it's a textbook case the men that read my book
1:12:14
that here one of these podcasts I've done they tell me the same thing they say
1:12:19
it's like you had a um a recorder and you are taping what's
1:12:27
going on in my house the conversation the way things play out
1:12:33
what I say what my wife says how do you know this so well
1:12:39
and I go I think I'm just faithful to God's word I'm just trusting what God says I'm nothing special
1:12:46
if nothing I'm not brave or courageous I'm just saying I have to stand where God's word stands and and I've seen this
1:12:54
so many times now that it's almost predictable
1:13:01
so um I'll make that available to people as
1:13:06
well it's kind of a dangerous thing to do this but any man or woman is listening to this podcast with you
1:13:13
you're free to contact me compassionate counselors is the ministry compassionatecounselors.com is our
1:13:19
website um my email address is Council the word at
1:13:26
pm.me so PM as in protonmail.me and uh
1:13:33
I'll even give you my phone number 602-384-4417
1:13:41
I edit out the phone number just in case that's up to you I'll let you I'll let you decide on that but I just want to
1:13:48
help I just want to help these families and I want to help these men because they need they they need this
1:13:53
help it's not it's not going away it's getting worse yes
1:13:59
and uh we need pastors to be leading the way in this we need new fetic biblical
1:14:06
counselors leading on this not figuring it out 10 years later
1:14:11
but leading the way on this because we're hurting people or we're
Calling Attention to the Problem
1:14:18
we're not only allowing people to get hurt but we are hurting them as well
1:14:24
we can't uh we can't just ignore that we can't just put that aside
1:14:30
men especially are being hurt absolutely men women are women have free reign and
1:14:36
license to harm men when when a man comes to me and says he's lucky for a church by the way there's like a thousand different tangents that that we
1:14:43
could that we could go on you know I always tell him when you go and meet with the pastor if you're considering
1:14:50
joining a church you have to ask the pastor three questions and that will tell you where the church is really at
1:14:55
question number one do women sin question number two do women sin against
1:15:03
men question number three are you capable of holding women accountable for sin
1:15:10
if he hesitates on even one of those questions leave
1:15:15
leave because you will be you will be abandoned now like you can get a sense
1:15:20
of you can like he may hesitate or answer like he answered correctly like you'll feel it out in the moment like
1:15:26
it's like oh you you know you you took a breath and I'm out you know so obviously you know use discernment with it but
1:15:32
there are far too many pastors that will that will answer no to one of those questions yes women sin yes women sin
1:15:38
against men no I'm not capable of holding women accountable for sin leave more willing to or willing to yeah able
1:15:44
and willing yeah because because otherwise you have men that again will feel like they've been
1:15:51
abandoned that they'll be held accountable for things that are not their fault that their wives will have
1:15:57
weapons free against their husbands and especially their children and this is something that I tend that I talk a lot
1:16:03
about on Instagram with some female content creators you know who are talking about motherhood like this we're
1:16:10
surviving of of their husbands it also goes down to their sons in many cases as
1:16:16
well yes and daughters in a different way but I mean maybe you can talk a little bit about the impact of the
1:16:22
reviling light of the reviling wife on her sons yeah it's on Sons and on
1:16:29
daughters yeah that's the revivaling wife has daughters
1:16:34
that are if not intentionally and deliberately trained in being reviling there by by
1:16:41
example they're being trained how to be a reviling wife when they grow up and
1:16:47
when they marry a man so it's deadly from that perspective because they have
1:16:52
an in inbred contempt for men because their mother does
1:16:57
and it's like I'm not going to trust any man I'm not going to entrust myself to any man I'm not going to follow any man
1:17:04
I Am Woman hear me roar you know I I'm strong and I can do whatever I want and and so
1:17:10
it's deadly for young girls that are growing up in that home but you mentioned for boys too same thing with
1:17:17
boys that they see their father Just Whipped verbally and and
1:17:23
demoralized and emasculated and if the man does not stand up and say
1:17:30
you know this is not going to keep going on we can't keep having this if he just abdicates again that young boy is going
1:17:36
to be that same kind of a young man and now we've got the problem just going down spiraling generation after
1:17:43
generation after generation and eventually someone has to stand and say look what do the scriptures say yeah
1:17:51
what does the word of God teach that's the kind of man I have to be but it is
1:17:56
very hard you know it's hard to be a leader when you don't have anyone that wants to
1:18:02
follow you isn't it yes yes you know I was like okay I'm the leader of my home I'm the head of our
1:18:08
home but the wife says I'm not following you and the wife says kids don't follow him because he's a bad man
1:18:15
it's very hard for that man to lead in his home but lead he must he must still stand and say
1:18:22
with gentleness with kindness with compassion but still be firm in his faith and say
1:18:30
I'm I'm not going to give in on this I'm not going to abdicate my role
1:18:36
so you're absolutely right it's it's like the curse that goes on generation to generation of those that hate God
1:18:43
and I'll say that as well that I probably implied it earlier
1:18:49
but these reviling wives are more than likely not born again
1:18:54
I was going to ask yeah I feel the same because there's no repentance there's no
1:19:00
sorrow there's no ownership of their sin I talked to a man yesterday that his
1:19:07
wife had just filed for divorce and she was a reviling wife I had
1:19:13
met with the two of them so I knew the situation and the man asked her
1:19:21
what part did you play in this the destruction of our marriage what part did you play in this wife
1:19:28
and she said it was 100 his fault 100 percent
1:19:33
and not only is that wrong it's the opposite of reality it's almost 100 his fault her fault
1:19:40
you know the man had some culpability in it but but nothing that would have ended the marriage nothing at
1:19:47
all and so there's that we get back to that blindness again and again it's a
1:19:53
prideful blindness it's not an innocent blindness that I just don't know any better it's a I'm digging my heels in
1:19:58
and I'm blind to the truth I'm blind to the reality that I sin just like anybody
1:20:05
else does I don't see how that person could be born again I really I really don't yeah
1:20:13
I've struggled with I've struggled with that as well you know because this is something that I'm that I mentor and counsel men through that I see very
1:20:20
often as um you know maybe they're they're the sons of reviling mothers their mothers taught them what to expect
1:20:26
from women they get into relationships with women who mirror that relationship with their mother it's a common human
1:20:32
thing that we do and then at some point the men wake up because they read a book or they encounter content and and we
1:20:38
start talking and start taking the pieces apart and it's like yeah okay I see that you're in a relationship with
1:20:44
you have a reviling wife to varying degrees and um and then they'll say but you know
1:20:50
we're in a Christian marriage it's like oh well or like you know my wife led me to Christ you know I was like and and
1:20:57
it's a very it can be very difficult to work through that I've been married for 20 years I became Christian because of her we had Christian vows and now 20
1:21:05
years on she's fully in Rebellion like hates God hates the Bible hates
1:21:11
everything and it's like I don't know was she was she ever a Christian to begin with these are no you know exactly
1:21:17
yeah no I've had the same thing I've had men that say you know my wife helped me she she got books by John McArthur and
1:21:23
John Piper and wow and this and that and and you know it really helped me as a
1:21:28
husband and a man and now she doesn't believe any of that stuff she just throws it all away and I go wow
1:21:34
really you know good you know good solid I mean all those guys are good solid guys I mean we don't agree with anything
1:21:40
they say but I go dad love to have a friendship with any of those guys and yet it's like no
1:21:46
so but we we know that knowledge puffs up knowledge is not enough it has to be
1:21:53
working in the heart doesn't it has to be changing your heart that's what the gospel does it changes and transforms
1:21:59
the heart where there's character that's developed and it's only developed by the spirit of God and what's the fruit of
1:22:05
the spirit love joy peace gentleness faithful self-control you know that that's what we look for and when we see
1:22:12
that we go that's the spirit of God working but then you look at the works of the
1:22:18
flesh we're in Galatians 5. you look at the works of the flesh what are they there's there's anger there's there's
1:22:24
all these forms there's like eight forms of anger that are mentioned there as works of the Flesh and it's like
1:22:31
that's what I see in my wife I see a lot of different forms of anger
1:22:36
but I don't see love joy peace faithfulness gentleness self-con
1:22:43
self-control I don't see that what's what's missing well don't become the judge of your wife
1:22:49
but evaluate and say boy I want to make sure those things are being built in my heart that's the fruit
1:22:55
that's the work of the spirit of God in my heart so
1:23:01
yeah the other thing I want to mention too that please um
1:23:06
when men go through this and they don't they don't get any help from their
1:23:13
Church now it goes into the secular courts
1:23:20
and now you got to play by the world's rules and the men lose yeah you played by the
1:23:26
secular court rules that the man the man loses you know years and years of child
1:23:33
support or what's called a divorce tax where you know he has to pay spousal support to his wife and and um
1:23:41
uh the church should be stepping in and saying we don't want you to go to the
1:23:47
courts we want to help you as the local church we want to Shepherd and Pastor
1:23:53
you your family and help you we're not the pastor of your family the
1:23:59
husband is the head in his home not the pastor of the family um
1:24:04
but we should be coming alongside and helping you not making it so that you have to go to the secular authorities to
1:24:11
get get resolution on this because you're not going to get resolution you go to the secular courts he's going to be a
1:24:17
train wreck and a disaster and it's got to be crazy expensive and it's going to destroy your family even more you know I
1:24:24
mean there's all kinds of things that are going to happen here so I I wish churches would take this more
1:24:31
to heart and say we have to help these men and if if there's a pastor or a
1:24:37
counselor listening to this podcast and a man comes to you Pastor or counselor
1:24:43
and he says some of these things about a reviling wife please don't dismiss him please don't
1:24:50
just say well he's obviously just a a toxic man he's obviously just a bad man
1:24:56
you know please listen to him and investigate it check it out he could be
1:25:01
deceiving you but he's probably not that's it now investigate it
1:25:09
I wanted to talk quickly if we can about some of the larger
1:25:15
societal issues that this ties to so obviously the family court system being
1:25:20
completely captured and twisted and being very anti-husband anti-father by
1:25:26
default it's like well we just default assume that the man is in the wrong and
1:25:31
we're going to take the kids from him and half of his income and we're not even going to investigate it that's just the presumption right but there's this
1:25:38
is showing up you know this General abdication to hold women accountable seems to be showing up society-wide and
1:25:45
as we were talking before we started recording it's it's widespread and these
1:25:51
are not coincidences that all these things are happening like there's something there's something larger going on and it's not just about the political
1:25:57
movement of feminism right exactly yeah no it's it's not you know politics is not the problem
1:26:04
politics is just you know kicking the can down the road um the the problem is that we don't we
1:26:10
don't have a Biblical view of anthropology we don't have a Biblical view of progressive sanctification
1:26:16
we don't have a Biblical view of christology of hamartiology of all of these things you know the study of study
1:26:23
of man the study of sin the study of sanctification you know we miss all of those things in the
1:26:28
church and it and it goes out into the society and even more to the point what the
1:26:35
society says gets into the church and it corrupts the church and then it goes back out into the society again and it
1:26:41
makes things worse so you know like we talked about a little bit in the beginning was the the
1:26:46
whole um Wok ideology is is a massive massive problem in the church
1:26:53
and I've had I've had pastors that I've talked to about that and they say oh I don't
1:26:58
believe in that stuff and I say brother you do you really do you don't you don't see it
1:27:04
well I don't embrace you know communism and Marxism and all that stuff well maybe not to that degree
1:27:10
but you're buying into it right here because you're automatically just kind of assuming
1:27:15
that you get the whole picture and and you don't so brother please please listen please
1:27:21
hear please hear what God has to say and um
1:27:27
so it's that it's that tension between gentle and compassionate
1:27:32
and being bold and forthright and say you know we have to be bold about this
1:27:37
we have to we have to be courageous and say we we have to say what is true and
1:27:43
right even if our culture opposes it because now we get back to fearing God rather than fearing man rather than
1:27:50
fearing the state rather than fearing what um a reviling wife might say or a church
1:27:57
might assume about you because you're just defending yourself
1:28:04
another thing um don't agree with a lie
1:28:11
so in other words if a man says well my wife is accusing me of this
1:28:16
and if I don't go along with her she's going to get really mad at me
1:28:24
don't just go along with her to keep peace yeah because all it is is a ceasefire it's not peace yeah you know
1:28:32
we have a ceasefire with China right now don't we but we don't have peace with
1:28:37
China okay nobody's killing each other at least overtly but would anybody say well
1:28:44
we have peace with China it's like well no we're just waiting for the next thing to come
1:28:50
same thing in the reviling wife in the marriage you can't just make peace your ultimate
1:28:56
goal you have to glorify God in your marriage you have to lead in your family you have
1:29:02
to honor the Lord Jesus Christ in what you do that's what you're called to you know
1:29:08
we're supposed to love the Lord Our God with all our heart our soul our mind and our strength that's the greatest commandment
1:29:15
and if we don't love truth enough to stand on the truth then we really don't love God with all our heart do we
1:29:22
or with all our mind yeah so you know the church should be
1:29:28
leading the culture on this and yet as we've seen for decades now the church follows the culture on this
1:29:36
and then we see these political things going on we're like why is that happening well our churches are not
1:29:43
honoring our churches are not faithful to God's word and um
1:29:50
and yet I know many great pastors good Brothers I've been here in the valley for 30 years and I've got a lot of good
1:29:56
friends that that love the Lord and love his word but I've also seen a number of them
1:30:03
lately in the past four or five years they've just abdicated yeah and just
1:30:10
kind of gone along with the culture in the world and I go
1:30:15
don't you understand that the world the Biblical term World means a society
1:30:21
and Rebellion against God why would you follow that is that what that is that an
1:30:26
actual that's an actual biblical term yeah the term world you look at it in first John and the Gospel of John you
The Meaning of "World"
1:30:32
know don't love the world or the things of the world what's he talking about he's not talking about the planet
1:30:37
he's not just talking about the people he's talking about the whole society that's in Rebellion against God that
1:30:43
doesn't want to follow God Hmm this is why we see all the
1:30:48
the gender confusion things yeah I was going to use the word transgender but it's not a real legitimate word it's not
1:30:55
a make-believe word it's good yeah it's a good point or like gay marriage that's not a it's not a real thing either not a
1:31:01
thing it's a make-believe world word but um you know we have to stand on
1:31:07
truth and we can stand on that with love we don't have to mock people we don't have to ridicule people we say no this
1:31:14
is what God says well who are you to say What God Says he wrote a book you know I got a I got a
1:31:20
book with 66 books in it that tells me what God says you know yeah and the author of that book says I'm the way and
1:31:26
the truth and the life no man comes to the father but by me I didn't make that up he said it not me
1:31:35
so but that's the way of Peace and Freedom Joy all the things that people want all
1:31:41
the things that people are craving and desire it comes through the good news it comes through the gospel it comes
1:31:47
through God working in the hearts of man and forgiving sin and becoming their
1:31:53
Lord he's their King and he will he will take care of everything in their life
1:32:00
so um I I think we have to we have to have
1:32:07
that that boldness and that courage will I mean I think that's what's really necessary but we have to have the
1:32:14
word of God as the authority the scriptures have to be the authority
1:32:19
um you know second Timothy 3 16 and 17 all scripture is breathed out
1:32:25
by God so all of it's breathed out by God and profitable for teaching for reproof for correction and training and
1:32:33
righteousness that the men of God may be complete and equipped for every good
1:32:39
work do we believe that we really believe that is breathed out by God and here's what
1:32:47
it does it does all these things we can't just add psychology to that or
1:32:53
Psychotherapy and say well we're going to come out with something better it's like no you're going to dilute what the word of God says you're gonna
1:32:59
you're gonna compromise on what the word of God says so we stand
1:33:04
boldly with that like Martin Luther here I stand I could do no other
1:33:10
God help me that that's where we have to be I think a lot of men
1:33:17
need first need to hear that message and but I think ultimately the bottom of many many Christian men uh would rather
1:33:25
listen to the word of woman rather than the word of the lord they're not they're
1:33:30
simply not strong enough constitutionally at the moment with spine and heart to really stand in the
1:33:36
word of the Lord and say no this is this is how it is this is how it is and if you think
1:33:43
proverbs 31 3 do not give your strength to women yeah it doesn't say to a woman it says
1:33:51
don't give your strength to women you know we're letting women lead and
1:33:56
they should not be leading and we're afraid we're afraid afraid to take the leadership Reigns from them
1:34:02
we're afraid to even say that to breathe that to them like you're not supposed to be leading I got a book that says it
1:34:09
right here we know because they can't stand up yeah
1:34:15
don't we can't fear we can't uh we can't back down we lovingly lead we
1:34:22
graciously lead we we say no this is what God says this is what we have to do
1:34:29
now a uh a woman with a good heart is going to
1:34:34
say boy great I'm protected yes that's what I want I want a man like
1:34:40
that but if a woman is listening to that and she hears this man is Harsh he's wicked he's cruel
1:34:48
he's domineering he's oppressed you're not hearing it you're not hearing it right because there are there's good men
1:34:54
like that out there I could introduce you to dozens of them I know a lot of these guys you know and
1:35:01
I'm sure you're one of them will from what I no views like yep I know plenty of men like that and um
1:35:08
uh but women think they're going to be happy by ruling and they're not
1:35:15
they're going to find that it's it's going to destroy him so it can destroy society as well
1:35:22
absolutely you see it around us destroy them destroy families destroy churches destroy Society it's it is
1:35:31
destructive sadly it's destructive do you have time for one or two more questions I know we're we're deep into
1:35:37
it at the moment yeah a couple more go ahead yeah okay so there was something that you brought up a while back that is
1:35:44
so important to the book and I want people to understand it because it's such a powerful phrase I wonder if you
1:35:49
can unpack your feelings are not sovereign because we live in an age that worships
1:35:55
feelings and certainly and certainly women are in many ways led by their feeling and their intuition which is one
1:36:00
of the reasons why we love them but there can also be a point at which the feeling is the one that takes control
1:36:07
so you and you did a great job with that in the books I wonder if you could talk about that idea
1:36:12
yeah the feelings are sovereign idea is that um a woman feels something and therefore in
1:36:21
her mind it's absolutely true and and you know and I mean on the surface you look at that you say well
1:36:27
that's kind of silly nobody does that do they go oh yeah they do yeah I've seen women that that say that uh
1:36:34
well you you have um uh
1:36:40
you have this idea that you are supposed to lead me and I feel like that is
1:36:46
oppressive I feel like that is Harsh I feel like this is
1:36:53
um not giving me freedom and the man will say well I'm really not trying to do
1:36:58
that um as I'm just remembering an example from
1:37:04
counseling from years ago where I literally had the husband and wife in my office
1:37:10
good and they're good friends today this is an example of a wife that's repentant about Corey violent so it's a good story
1:37:18
um but at the at the time I'm like this is just crazy what's going on so the husband and wife are talking and the
1:37:24
husband is describing something he's describing a situation he's very calm he's very gentle
1:37:30
he's not harsh or anything and the wife turns to him
1:37:35
and she says you're you're just a phony you're a fake
1:37:41
you're a fraud I feel like you are just you're just making the stuff up and you're not really like that and and you
1:37:48
know she's just accusing of all of these things because she felt that he was being fake and the husband turns to her
1:37:55
and says what what are you talking about what do you what do you mean and she says no you're really angry
1:38:01
right now you're saying things in a soft and gentle way but you're really angry right now
1:38:07
he's like no I'm just saying things very gently and you know and I know it's comical Now you listen to it now I'm
1:38:13
just watching this unfold in my office and I'm like what what is going on here every man's been through this yeah so I
1:38:19
stopped the conversation I said okay wife um he's gentle right yeah he's gentle
1:38:25
he's very soft-spoken yep he is and you know I just run through what I was seeing with the man
1:38:31
and I said but you see him as being angry when he's doing that yeah absolutely I know he's I know him so
1:38:38
well I know his heart I said oh wait a minute wait a minute you're assuming something about him
1:38:45
that's absolutely the opposite of that if he was harsh and banging his hand on the table and jabbing his finger in your
1:38:52
face and doing then I'd say okay he probably is Harsh and angry and mean right now but that's not the case he's
1:38:59
the opposite of that why would you judge his heart so harshly well it's because that's what I feel but I feel that way
1:39:07
so she didn't say the words but my feelings are sovereign and and so in this case
1:39:14
it just took a lot of time with her and kind of walked her through that and she she eventually saw that she was
1:39:21
being quite foolish and judgmental she repented and changed
1:39:26
but uh that's an example you know my feelings are all that matters and the
1:39:32
husband is quiet and he's soft and he's gentle well you're prideful well you're being angry right now you're
1:39:39
you're really angry even though you're using gentle words like what why what do you mean by that well I feel that's what
1:39:46
you're doing I go you can't just operate by feelings because feelings are deceptive
1:39:52
and feelings I I mean some of this comes from the enemy that you know okay attack
1:39:57
your husband now go after him because he's being a phony and a fraud and
1:40:03
um you know you you you can't just make that kind of a judgment it's irrational it's illogical it's it's cruel it's
1:40:11
vindictive so your feelings are not sovereign your feelings don't determine truth I mean
1:40:16
truth is is what's a fact so so that's an example of that where often wives
1:40:24
they're very feelings driven often they feel things and therefore they
1:40:30
assume it to be true and um you know just have to gently be
1:40:35
urged let's step back a second let's kind of think this through let's let God's word renew and change our minds
1:40:43
here because I don't think you're seeing this right so that's an example of the feelings are
1:40:50
sovereign I know I go into a lot more depth in my book on that but um I would encourage your readers to get a copy of
1:40:56
my book I don't get a lot of royalties out of this so it's not like making a bunch of money off of this but yeah
1:41:02
it'll help men and women in in a variety of ways to um to really
1:41:08
see what's going on yeah to make to make feelings your your highest Authority when feelings are are
1:41:15
subject to facts and also to the word of God that's the Sovereign Authority in
1:41:20
the room right now exactly and so I think that the last thing I want to ask is what has it been like for you in the
1:41:28
eight years since you wrote the book because I mean it was a it's a big deal to step out on these topics today and
1:41:34
you were out front on them eight years ago and as you've written the book you've watched the societal condition get worse around these very issues and
1:41:42
meanwhile again like a voice crying out in the wilderness you've been talking about this on on the front lines in a way I haven't found anyone else really
1:41:49
talking about so what's it been like for you to get to this point and what's happening for you now
1:41:55
well it's it's been a very slow thing really that um I've had men
1:42:02
over the years over the eight years since the book that have contacted me and they they always find me and they
1:42:08
say okay we want to talk with you but until about
1:42:13
a few months ago it's really been kind of quiet not really a lot of attention not really a lot of
1:42:20
um uh people that are interested to talk about it
1:42:25
until the last few months and now it's like wow it's just off the charts it's a whole it's a whole other ministry that's
1:42:31
developing now because of this yeah I've got a group of men that were
1:42:37
were strategizing and praying God what what can we do what what do we do because there's a lot of men out there
1:42:43
that that need this help and they're coming out of the woodwork and
1:42:48
um I mean literally I'm sure after this podcast I'm going to get flooded with more emails and phone calls too I hope
1:42:54
so and you know and part of me goes oh no but also part of me goes good
1:43:01
you know what I say to the men that join our online group I said I'm sorry that you're here but we're glad to help you
1:43:07
that's kind of been our motto I'm really sorry that you're here because I know what you're going through
1:43:12
but I'm glad we can help you and um we haven't gotten too much opposition
1:43:19
yet I know it's coming I know it will come eventually
1:43:25
probably because nobody knows who I am you know but I keep doing podcasts people are going to know who I am and
1:43:30
it's like okay now I am going to get you know attacks and things like that but again ultimately we go we have to
1:43:38
honor God we have to say Lord what do you want to do how can we be a part of
1:43:44
advancing your kingdom not my kingdom but yours um I'm not getting rich off of this I'm
1:43:51
not getting Financial um blessings off of this it's it's simply
1:43:58
to say let's be faithful to the word of God and that's all that I want I just
1:44:05
want the church to be honoring and glorifying the Lord and helping these
1:44:12
suffering men so um so it's been good it's it's been good
1:44:17
to see so many men getting getting help but I need help
1:44:22
with this too well I can't do it myself yeah that's why I'm glad to have these men
1:44:30
that I've been working with some of these men I've been working with them for several years and they're really
1:44:35
growing and changing in wonderful ways some of the men are new on this journey it's like man they're right in the
1:44:41
middle of it right now like some of the men that we've that you and I know and um so every man's in a different
1:44:48
different situation different place these are young men they're men in their 20s and 30s these are older men men in
1:44:55
their 60s and 70s it's not any one segment of society some of these are
1:45:01
very wealthy men some of these are men that can barely pay their bills it's not that there's nothing that's
1:45:08
common in this except that they're the gentle kind compassionate
1:45:14
sweet men not not wimpy men but men that
1:45:19
are um they're willing to go along they're not men that are insisting on
1:45:26
their way but eventually with the reviling wife you know it becomes why do you keep
1:45:34
dictating to me wife why do you think that that's your role to just insist on
1:45:40
things being your way so we get right back to Genesis 3 16 again
1:45:45
her desire is contrary to the husband so yeah God's curses are legit they are
1:45:52
yeah well thank you so much thank you so much this has been wonderful conversation and
1:45:59
I I sincerely hope and pray that this blesses many men and women listening and that they pick up your book I'll link it
1:46:05
in in the show notes and and uh be talking about it as well in the introduction you've already so
1:46:10
graciously provided your email address and phone number and website I don't know if there's other places you want to
1:46:16
send men if you have a YouTube channel or social media or anything like that or how people can donate to support your
1:46:22
ministry how would you how would you like people to be able to to support you and help you today
1:46:27
yes you know I'm I'm not really into social media very much at all yeah but
1:46:33
um you know which is probably a good thing in some ways but yes but if people
1:46:38
wish to donate to the ministry you can go to our website compassionatecounselors.com and you can
1:46:43
donate right there and that would be that would be very kind if people would
1:46:48
would do that just so we can continue doing the work that we're doing and and like I said we're going to need more
1:46:54
help and we are in the process of developing a whole another Ministry that is
1:47:00
connected to compassionate counselors you know they don't even have a name for it yet but it's something like the reviling wives Ministry to help these
1:47:07
men so um so thank you thank you for having me on well it's been great to get to
1:47:13
know you and you're a fellow Phoenician and a lover of God and lover of man and and thank
1:47:19
you thank you for the good work that you're doing
Transcript
0:00
so if you're not Discerning and thinking this through you're just going to rush to her defense and you're automatically
0:05
going to start condemning the man this is what happens and the man never gets an opportunity to
0:11
defend himself to say this is what's going on you know let me explain you know
0:17
and anything the man does to try to explain the situation now you're being defensive now you're being prideful and
0:24
you know you're obviously uh you know so upset about this and look at how mad you're getting she's probably right
0:31
about you in fact she is right about you so it just kind of snowballs from there
Introduction
0:42
my guest this week is Dr David Edgington and he's the author of the outstanding book The abusive wife but he proposes
0:49
that the term abusive while familiar isn't exactly accurate a better more biblical term is reviling which he says
0:56
quote focuses on the verbal aspect of mistreatment of others it entails using
1:01
speech as a non-contact weapon against another person to revile is to strike another person it is speech that is
1:08
Harsh and arrogant not only in tone but also in content in substance reviling speech often resorts to mocking ridicule
1:16
and insulting language within the Christian church in recent Generations pastors have specifically overlooked
1:22
this form of abuse of men in their rush to apologize for perceived wrongs of the past does this sound familiar it's not
1:29
hard to connect the dots that as pastors churches and denominations bend the need
1:34
to woke and rainbow Flags they're actually continuing a trend that began long ago succumbing to what I call the
1:41
feminist the apology that women are Eternal victims and every knee must bow to their Almighty feelings now here's
1:49
the thing David wrote his book eight years ago having been in countless biblical or new fetic counseling
1:54
sessions and seen that the husband and wife seem to be playing by different sets of rules the man imperfect as all
2:01
men are but kind accommodating and loving the woman meanwhile is Harsh controlling and unrepentant she refuses
2:09
to be held to the biblical standard of not just submissiveness but of graciousness or even kindness to the man
2:15
she married she Rebels against him in word tone and posture I've seen this in my own mentorship practice and David's
2:21
book gave me better language to talk about it now eight years after the publication of the book as American
2:27
society is being consumed in a feminist-driven conflagration it's hard not to call Dr Edgington just a little
2:34
bit prophetic and quite a bit more than heroic which is why I'm honored to have David on my podcast today not only is he
2:41
a man of great moral courage having called attention to the real world impact of these behaviors for almost a
2:47
decade he also counsels couples on how to come out of this way of being he supports men and how to survive or even
2:53
be Sanctified by it and he helps men to recover from women who have abused them left and worse and praise God there are
3:00
voices like David's calling out from the Wilderness with gentleness firmness and
3:05
an unyielding commitment to the word of God preparing the way for the great Reckoning with truth that must come
3:11
before the great reconciliation in our conversation David and I discussed his excellent book The abusive wife how to
3:18
recognize a reviled husband wokeness and Christianity women and their anger the
3:24
danger of the secular courts how abuse can sanctify us and why women's feelings
3:29
are not sovereign if you enjoy the Renaissance of men podcast thank you please like this video share it and
3:36
subscribe plus leave a comment down below letting us know if you think the image of the reviling wife it's a little
3:41
bit too close to home the Renaissance of men podcast is proudly sponsored by Reformation coffee Pastor Brandon
3:47
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lifetime streaming license there you can watch more than seven hours of content that'll help women renew their vision
4:46
for Godly femininity and please welcome this week's guest on the podcast the founder of compassionate counselors and
4:52
the author of The abusive wife Dr David Edgington David thanks so much for joining me on the podcast
Interview Start
4:59
great to be here will thanks so much for inviting me well I mean it's it's a as we discussed
5:04
it's a long chain of friends that led us here today starting with a feminine not feminist and my buddies Kevin and and
5:10
Richie so um it's a it's a real blessing to have this conversation because you know I have your book here the abusive
5:16
the abusive wife which I want to get into but you're talking about a subject that many men and many women are really
5:22
waking up to but you've been talking about it for a while so kind of leading the way is like a voice crying in the
5:29
wilderness so maybe we can get started with like what inspired you to write the book when did you write the book what's
5:34
the story behind it well first of all the um
5:40
I did a search trying to find biblically oriented books on this because I kept running into it and counseling I'm a
5:46
full-time new fedic counselor I still like the word new fetic rather than just biblical because it says something a
5:53
little more biblical yeah um and uh and I found nothing on this topic nothing
5:59
from a Biblical perspective and as far as I know there's still nothing biblical
6:04
on this issue and yet there are men out there that are
6:09
suffering so badly I mean I was I was I was weeping last night because I know so
6:16
many men personally good solid men that are not only getting
6:21
maligned and reviled that's the Biblical word reviled by their wives
6:28
but they're getting condemned not too strong a word condemned by their churches
6:33
and by the past years and by counselors even counselors that
6:39
are certified in the same group that I'm certified in and it is it is a
6:45
it's a pandemic it's it's something that is widespread I wrote my book eight
6:50
years ago wow and it's uh it's gotten far far worse I never dreamed how much
6:57
attention this subject would get and let me talk a little bit about publishing
7:03
the book too I have a a very kind recommendation from Jay Adams basically the father of biblical
7:10
counseling movement new fetic counseling and you know he and I talked about it he
7:16
really enjoyed the book he says boy this is this is really good there's nothing like this out there
7:21
and I thought that when I got a good recommendation from a solid man like that that it'd be easy to publish the
7:26
book I couldn't get any Christian Publishers to publish it not surprised they told me it's too controversial they
7:33
told me it's it's hating women I said did you read it I don't hate women I
7:39
mean it's the farthest thing from my mind some people said there's not that
7:44
this is not that big of a problem um I got all excuses and I thought this is
7:50
really strange so I had to self-publish it Amazon published it Liberal Liberal Amazon published it and
7:58
I go praise God for them you know that uh they're willing to to allow it to be self-published so
8:04
but uh but this is not this problem is not going away we're talking now in June
8:09
2023 and this is way way worse than it was in 2015 when I wrote the book yeah I
8:16
like how you know you're using such solid biblical terms to start with new
8:21
FedEx reviling condemn like these are these are this is biblical language to use to explain a problem and identify a
8:29
problem that a lot of people don't want to look at and because they don't want to look at it it's getting worse like
8:35
that's how these things tend to go exactly and I in a point of clarification people often ask why did
8:41
you use the word abusive wife why didn't you call it the reviling life and the simple reason is most people don't know
8:48
what reviling means right so I had to use a word that's common in our culture and then first two chapters I Define
8:54
well abuse is really not the best term you know abuse can talk about sexual
8:59
abuse emotional abuse again talking you know abuse becomes anything if you and I just agree on something you're abusing
9:06
me so it means really nothing but the Biblical word revile
9:11
is using words as a non-contact weapon where I seek to destroy you I seek to
9:18
not only in in in tone but also in content to destroy and and rip you apart
9:25
so um so revile um I don't know if you want to talk
9:30
about this yeah let's let's get in let's get into it yeah you know the word the word revile in John chapter 9 the man
9:38
born blind was reviled by the Jewish leaders it says they reviled him saying
9:44
you are his disciple but we are Disciples of Moses so it wasn't I don't think it was said as kindly as I
9:51
just said it it's it's that's you know you're his disciple and we're Disciples of Moses so they're trying to destroy
9:58
this man they're trying to ruin ruin him with their words um they're mocking him
10:04
uh in First Corinthians 4 12. it says that when we are reviled we bless so
10:10
there's the picture of antithesis okay when we're reviled we do the opposite we bless instead so if you want to know
10:16
what revile looks like it's the opposite of blessing someone
10:22
um Jesus when first Peter 2 23 says that when he was reviled he did not revile in return
10:30
so see verbal scorning evidences a Hardness of Heart and as we know Jesus
10:38
didn't have a hard heart he was he was perfect in every way so he didn't retaliate in the same way that that they
10:44
were going against him and then one of the most glaring ones is Matthew 15 4
10:51
where it says that whoever reviles his mother or father must be put to death
10:56
so that's telling us that this is a serious serious sin First Corinthians 5 First Corinthians 6 talks about that
11:05
reviling is grounds for church discipline we think of
11:12
uh you know sexual immorality we think of drunkenness we think of all kinds of reasons for church discipline but we I
11:20
really don't know any churches that have done church discipline on a woman for
11:25
reviling her husband I know somewhere then is accused of being real violent but uh but but not
11:33
not the woman so you know so when that's listed in the in the uh the options of
11:40
why church discipline is necessary reviling is right in there so if that's the case this is obviously serious
11:47
enough that we have to address it we have to hold everyone accountable for
11:53
this so before we go any further well I want to make a clarification too because
12:00
I am never I never deny that men are revilers too right I mean you have to
12:07
say state that because people say oh you're on this podcast the reviling wife the abusive wife you must hate women and
12:13
it's like absolutely not I know many men that that fit this description I'm not saying they they don't exist at all
12:20
they're out there too but the problem we're seeing now is that there are women out there you know men
12:26
and women sin pretty much the same amount I think yeah I think Romans 3 23
12:31
applies to everybody yes on that so asterisk all except for women
12:38
right any more than children gonna pass a nut or the elderly get a pass on it's like you know why would we expect
12:44
anything less right but but we live in such a feminized culture
12:49
right now where the feminist voice is so strong and so powerful that that women do get a pass on this
12:58
and so that's I think that's why you have me on the podcast like okay this was the abusive man you know everybody
13:03
say oh yeah no plenty of men like that but the abusive wife or the reviling wife
13:08
we're gonna see more and more people that say I know women like that
13:14
um and I and they contact me too they say I know women like that I've got some reviews that were written on Amazon by
13:21
women that say I know plenty of women like that and then I also know humble women that say you know what I have
13:26
tendencies in that direction myself so thank you for writing writing your book
13:32
yeah that and I I completely agree I've known many women like that
13:38
um you know in my family for example or um just meet them you know I I uh I
13:44
interview often I speak with a woman named Allison Armstrong and she she has a book called The
13:49
Queen's code about how to speak to men about her Awakening to the essentially to the humanity of men because she had
13:55
grown up a feminist and was taught how to relate to men in a particular way and then she realized that men are way more
14:01
complicated than just like dogs or pigs or whatever she recognizes we're actually human beings right with our own with our own way of being that's
14:07
completely different from from women almost like we're designed to be complementary to each other and so she
14:13
spent the past 30 years educating women on how to on how to speak to men and see them but she still sees this kind of
14:20
behavior all the time and she documents it in the book like women that are just they can't harm men physically in quite
14:26
the same way because they lack the physical strength but they have the ability to absolutely cut us apart with
14:33
with words um circles around men can't they that's right that's right they go around and
14:40
around around the man's like wait a minute what's going on I gotta address this and that and and he's just he's just pummeled pummeled with the words
14:46
but it's not just the the Avalanche of words not just the number of words is it
14:52
it's it's the it's the the heart behind the words it's the freight behind the
14:57
words it's the destructive it's the condescending it's the holding in contempt it's the unforgiving it's the
15:05
never apologizing that's these are all the traits that we see in the reviling life that uh you know she's Relentless
15:13
in that and you know she'll never apologize yes she'll never ask forgiveness which is you know two
15:19
different things but you'll never do either one of those very rarely will she do those things
15:24
so she's above reproach in her mind and really as the scriptures say this is
15:30
just simple pride and uh deadly Pride yes very much so and not only that they
15:36
won't the only Redemption is if you completely capitulate exactly there's no
No Escape
15:42
reconciliation there's no like if you just if we can work out the misunderstanding maybe we can come
15:47
together it's like no you I Must Destroy you totally and you have to bow the knee
15:53
to me and then and then I will release you from the suffering that's how that ends up playing isn't it amazing that
15:58
it's parallel to cancel culture woke ideology it's like boy it sounds an
16:04
awful lot like that doesn't it yes because it is that's what it is it's woke ideology
16:10
it's infiltrated good solid conservative Bible teaching churches
16:15
and we got to wake up to this we got to say wait a minute we we can't just capitulate we can't just apologize and
16:21
say you know we have to apologize to every woman who's ever made any accusation it's like
16:27
you know as I mentioned on one of the podcasts the metoo movement has has kind of gripped people in a way that says
16:34
okay just believe any woman for anything that she says and I go well I'm not going to disbelieve any woman
16:40
but I you know you have to ask some good questions you have to find out what's really going on what's what's happening
16:47
with this here's an example um one of the common phrases that you'll
16:55
hear from the reviling wife is that I don't feel safe around my husband
17:03
I don't feel safe and you know so now as a man as a man that loves women wants to
17:08
protect women wants to guard women from harm what is the typical man gonna do
17:14
even a man that's not a pastor that's not a counselor the typical man who's going to run to her defense and say whoa
17:20
boy I got to protect you because you're in danger those are emotionally charged words I don't feel safe
17:27
so if you're not Discerning and thinking this through you're just going to rush to her defense and you're automatically
17:33
going to start condemning the man this is what happens and the man never gets an opportunity to
17:39
defend himself to say this is what's going on you know let me explain you know
17:45
and anything the man does to try to explain the situation now you're being defensive now you're being prideful and
17:52
you know you're obviously uh you know so upset about this and look at how mad you're getting she's probably right
17:59
about you in fact she is right about you so it just kind of snowballs from there
18:04
so it's so instead what I do when a woman says that
18:10
to me with her husband here I I say what what do you mean you don't feel safe has he beat you as he hits you
18:18
has he threatened you has he got the knife or a gun and said if you don't do what I say I'm gonna you know is he
18:25
doing anything like that and almost without fail will they say well no he
18:30
hasn't done any of those things I said well help me understand what do you mean I don't feel safe
18:36
and usually what it comes down to is that well he's asking me to do something that I don't want to do
18:43
and I say okay is it something sinful he's asking you to do well no he's just you know I don't really want to follow
18:49
him I I know better than he does maybe you do but what does the scripture call you to
18:55
do what is the one command on God's word for you as a wife it's to submit to your husband
19:01
and that's a word that we don't want to use anymore submit it's like oh it's a the cursed s word you know it's like boy
19:08
you know don't you find yourself saying oh boy if I use the word submit with a woman she's going to come unglued on me
19:15
sometimes that's what happens and and we've been beaten down so much it's like
19:20
wait we're failing to use the biblical language that is inspired by God that
19:26
says a wife must submit to her husband now again we're not talking about a wife
19:32
that's getting beaten up a wife that's getting you know hit and knifed and threatened and and
19:38
all of that we're not talking about that you know if you're a wife in that kind of a marriage get out of there get out of the hole get your get your children
19:45
out of the home we're not saying submit to a man that's just evil and wicked however we are looking at furnaces First
19:52
Peter chapter 3 that says that even a man that's disobedient to the word the wife needs to submit to him
19:58
so even a man that's not quite getting it the wife's role is still to follow him
20:06
to submit to him and submission doesn't mean I'll go along with you as long as I
20:11
agree with you that's the other that's the other mistake that's often made is like well if my husband says something
20:17
and I agree with it then I'll submit to him I said well that's not submission no you know submission is I don't agree
20:23
with him but I willingly put myself under his authority because this is God's Authority this is the way God has
20:30
established Authority and that's where you're safe now you are safe but you go
20:35
out of that order now you really are unsafe not for the reasons you think you're unsafe but now
20:41
you're unsafe because you're disobeying not just your husband you're disobeying God
20:46
be very careful with that so I know I kind of took down on it we
20:52
were a tangent there no please this touches on so many different everything just relates doesn't it so it really
20:58
does I was listening to a Doug Wilson book uh called her hand in marriage that's about uh courtship and the
21:05
biblical courtship process exists to protect women from just that sort of
21:11
situation where you have you know a potential Suitor going to her father and having to win or earn her father's
21:18
approval because she's under she's under the headship of her father and then she's passed to the headship of her
21:25
husband right that's how that that's how that works and that process exists to
21:31
protect the woman from unrighteous ungodly men that she won't want to submit to right the father is there
21:38
vetting but when we blew apart the courtship process and created this individualized well let's just let's
21:44
just fall and have relations with each other and get our hormones all mixed up and believe that love is the most
21:49
important thing love is all you need we broke apart that um that chain that
21:54
existed for the women's benefit and now we're living in the in the aftermath of that detonation where everyone's having
22:01
to figure it out for themselves and so you have I think you have women entering into marriages carrying that Shield you
22:08
know like nope not not going to submit it's like well hold on just a second here like why did you end up with him in
22:14
the first place I've asked women that question and they don't they really don't like being asked that question yeah yes yes yeah
22:21
no just because a man is trying to lead does not make him a toxic man that's true that does not make it systemic uh
22:29
sexism um you know all of those things and and here's the other thing that's
22:34
interesting about the the husband of a reviling wife not only is there a very clear picture
22:41
of what the reviling wife looks like there's also a very clear picture of what the husband of a reviling wife
22:47
looks like yes he's usually very gentle he's very kind he's very compassionate
22:53
he loves his children he would give anything for his children sacrifice
22:58
anything for his children and yet he tends to be more on the
23:03
passive side of things he's kind of naive about things he's kind of he's kind of too gentle in some ways
23:10
so he's not a harsh angry mean cruel vindictive retaliatory man it's not that
23:17
at all he's the exact opposite of that but that's the kind of man that a
23:22
reviling wife is going to be drawn to because now she can control him
23:28
now she can you know Pummel him with words now her bitter heart comes out
23:34
even stronger because he's not a leader he's not the kind of leader that she's looking for but really she doesn't want
23:41
a leader she wants someone that's going to follow her yeah we get all the way back to Genesis 3 16 you know which is which is
23:49
where all of us started where where did all this start well that's you know that's that's where it started and I
23:54
love the esv's translation on this I think it's the most faithful to the Hebrew
23:59
um Genesis 3 16 your desire shall be contrary to your husband and he shall
24:05
rule over you so it brings out the point that the wife's desire is contrary to the husband
24:13
it's not a Godly desire it's not a kind desire because this is a result of the fall and so this is already the
24:19
Temptation for women now not every woman falls into that category and and and
24:25
plays that out in in real life but this is where this is where it began
24:31
began right at the fall of of Adam and Eve the other side of it is and he shall
24:36
rule over you that's just as ungodly that's the man oppressing the woman so there are men as we've said that are
24:43
like that as well that are harsh that are cruel that are vindictive that are you know beating their wives down
24:49
verbally and sadly many are beating them down physically as well which is wicked and sin we never never give a pass to
24:56
that but these two words in Genesis 3 16 desire
25:02
and Rule they only occur in one other place in the Bible it's in Genesis 4 7 the next chapter after Genesis 3 and and
25:11
there it's with um Cain and how sin has a desire contrary
25:17
to him but he must rule over it so it's a picture to say okay this is what it looks like sin Wants to Rule and control
25:24
and is contrary to God's Will and he has to push back on that and say this this
25:30
is not this is not allowed this is not appropriate so it kind of explains what's going on in Genesis 3 16 write in
25:37
the next chapters I mean it's no coincidence that God put those two words one chapter after the other but that's where it
25:44
comes from you know this is where because that's what people say where does this come from and um
25:50
another area that it's that it comes from also is I have found
25:56
yeah I just I've just kind of found this out because I've counseled so many of these kind of marriages
26:03
um there's usually been some very very deep and painful trauma in this wife's life
26:12
when she was a little girl she's raped she was molested
26:17
she was physically assaulted by her brothers or her father you know there's
26:22
all kinds of all kinds of things like that and so as she gets older as she
26:28
ages she gets triggered by these things with her husband even though he's not doing
26:35
the same thing it's like this just feels exactly like what my dad did to me or this feels like what that rapist did to
26:41
me and so then she projects that onto him onto her innocent husband
26:46
and you know and part of it we just go I feel so bad for these poor women what they've experienced you know so so
26:53
here's another here's another consequence another fruit of how wickedly some men have treated
27:01
women and we're seeing the consequence of that now in the marriage relationship we're seeing that wow that is
27:08
destructive in another another Avenue now and the same demonic
Passing On Abuse
27:16
um work that was done with the rapists with the man beating the little girl with the
27:22
man molesting the little girl the same demonic influence there it comes out later
27:27
in a demonic influence on the wife towards an innocent husband towards the husband hasn't done these things
27:34
so here's a whole nother Avenue I mean I know we've got so many tangents will that we could talk about no I know but
27:39
here's another one parental alienation this is this is just so it is so
27:47
Grievous it is unbelievable we've I hear these stories and I know them I know
27:53
these men I'm not making this stuff up that they get accused of the most wicked
27:58
and evil things they're like where is this coming from why would my wife or my daughter my adult daughter make these
28:05
accusations against me I was just reading one of these emails I got this morning from a man that has basically
28:11
lost everybody in his family through false accusations of sexual
28:18
molestation of rape of you know just just things you go gosh this would have
28:23
to be this wicked monster evil man to do this and yet I know this guy I've known
28:29
him for years he's not that kind of man and his story is not unique I hear it over and over
28:36
and over and over again where the where the wife becomes so embittered against
28:42
her husband that it's not enough to just divorce him then she wants to destroy him she wants
28:50
him to lose his job she wants him to lose his reputation she wants him to go to prison she wants him to just be have
28:56
no contact with anyone in the family and there are men that that I've counseled
29:03
men that are in my I have an online group of men that I meet with and their stories I mean anybody hearing
29:10
their stories would just absolutely weep over what's going on men that have not talked to their
29:16
families in years one man that has a a son a son that's not even a teenager
29:24
yet and the court has ordered him to have contact that that son to have contact
29:30
with him and the son is just yes no yes no bye and you know that's that's the
29:37
substance of the relationship so imagine what that does as I said
29:42
before to a man that already loves his family a man that already would give
29:47
anything his first family and now that family is ripped apart from him so parental alienation a whole nother
29:53
subset of the reviling wife it comes with this it comes with that territory sadly and
30:02
um you know there's a book that needs to be written on that too from a Biblical perspective I you know I've got a dozen
30:08
books in my mind that I just don't have the time or the self-discipline to get them all done right
30:14
but but it's you know you laugh at it but you cry about it you go oh Lord please help these men please
30:22
you know not only relieve them of their suffering but restore reconcile these relationships that have just been torn
30:29
apart so that's a whole a whole nother area
30:35
um maybe we should talk a little bit about what the scriptures say how it describes
30:42
a reviling wife there's a lot there's a lot in the Book of Proverbs on this
30:47
interesting interestingly enough I'll just kind of run through a few of them just always say don't uh take a lot of
30:55
time on it but Proverbs 19 13 a foolish son is ruined to his father and a wife's
31:02
quarreling is a continual dripping of rain so you know if you have a house that
31:09
doesn't have a roof that's properly sealed you can't keep out the rainy weather
31:14
but you could get alternative housing or you get your roof repaired but there's
31:19
no Escape From The Bitter contentious wife Proverbs 21 9 it's better to live in a
31:25
corner of the House Top than in a house shared with a quarrelsome wife
31:31
there's no peace there's no sanctuary in the home this this man has to go to a
31:36
corner of the House Top on the roof of the house to get away from that he's
31:41
going to the furthest point away so that he can get some peace shouldn't be this should not be
31:49
um Proverbs 25 24 it repeats the same same words as 21 nines it's interesting you
31:56
know it's a few chapters later Solomon is repeating that um Proverbs 21 19. it's better to live
32:03
in a desert land than with a quarrelsome and fretful woman so now it's taking it
32:08
to a different level so I get out of the house get off of the roof you got to go out in the desert to get away from this
32:14
constant barrage of reviling and someone that hasn't lived in that kind of a home
32:19
really can't fathom what that's like most men will say well you know every
32:25
husband and wife argue about some things we don't agree on everything I mean you know you don't agree with everything I'm
32:31
assuming you're married you don't agree you're not married okay I'm not sorry but um you know we don't uh we don't
32:37
look at that and say well it's some things that are that are difficult to put up with but
32:43
this is far in a whole separate category the reviling wife is in a way different
32:49
category um look at this picture
32:55
Proverbs 27 15-16 a continual dripping on a rainy day and a quarrelsome wife
33:00
are alike to restrain hers to restrain the wind or to grasp oil in one's right
33:06
hand grasping oil in your hand you know I can change the oil in my cars all the time
33:11
I'm still old school and I do my own oil change like yep you get that oil in your hands it's like I can't grip it I can't
33:17
hold on to it it just it just slips right through so this is again a picture
33:22
of the quarrelsome or contentious or reviling wife
33:28
um Proverbs 12 4 she who brings shame to her husband is like rottenness to his
33:35
bones so now we're talking about the Deep Soul pain that that husband goes through
33:42
these men are just broken they are just destroyed well they have gone through so
33:48
much so rather than peace and contentment she's she's like a piercing scourge
33:55
it's like a living disease in this in this men and it is so sad and again I'm
34:01
not throwing women under the bus I'm looking at this feel for these women that are so bound up in their own misery and their own
34:08
bitterness there's freedom in the gospel there's freedom in Christ there's freedom in what Jesus has done but they
34:16
they they don't see it they don't they don't want to see it in many cases yes and one more and this this passage is
34:22
probably the most descriptive the wisest of women's Proverbs 14 1 the wisest of
34:27
women builds their house but Folly with their own hands tears it down
34:33
if there's one passage that describes it the best I think that's it it's like you know she she could be wise and build her
34:39
house or or she can just be a fool just Folly and tear her house down tear
34:45
everything down tear her family down so you know so just as I mentioned that
34:52
these men will often sacrifice anything and everything for their families they
34:57
don't really care about money they don't care about your reputation they would sacrifice anything for their families
35:04
often what we see in the reviling wife is she'll sacrifice anything for her
35:09
feelings skills therefore that's all that matters
35:15
and as I mentioned in my book feelings are not sovereign feelings don't determine truth feelings are real
35:22
I know she feels the things that she says but that doesn't rule that's not
35:27
the way that we evaluate truth and what's right and what's honorable and what's holy and what's good
35:34
but if your feelings are all that count then you know you're just gonna go
35:40
you're just gonna go on her opinion on on things but what often it doesn't happen the man's feelings don't count
35:46
yeah well I just feel like I'm beaten up I just feel like I can never say
35:52
anything right I feel like I can never lead in my home I feel like you know I I asked my wife
35:58
to do something innocent and she's she's just reviling me and I I don't understand why what am I doing wrong
36:06
it's not that the man is necessarily doing anything wrong some if he is then we we address that we
36:13
want biblical conviction and we call him to repent but if it's not we look at the wife and say we have to hold you
36:20
accountable if we love you we'll hold you accountable
36:26
thank you for all of that um because it's it's all it's all very real and I think I think many men
36:32
listening will relate to this uh one of my friends is a man named Eric Carroll from Dad talk today very popular like
36:39
200 000 followers on Facebook primarily serving divorced ads and one of his
36:46
um one of his big themes that he talks about is Dad deprivation parental alienation and and there's actually a
36:53
phenomenon now where you know parents will get divorced the wife will get
36:58
remarried to another man and tell this other man such horror stories about her
37:04
ex that the man will then go murder the husband and those are starting to happen or she just people are losing lives over
37:11
it and there's a very there's a very moving story about that one one thing I wanted to say is that
37:18
nothing that happened to you in childhood legitimizes your mistreatment of another
37:24
person absolutely ever true it doesn't matter whether you were locked in a
37:31
dungeon and mistreated man or woman that does not give you the right to mistreat
37:36
someone in your future who had nothing to do with it ever ever absolutely no that's I'm glad you
37:44
clarified that because I probably did not but that's it's implied but yeah absolutely true and um
37:52
you know people that have been through these traumatic things there's a real bitterness that's taken roots in their
37:58
hearts yeah Hebrews 12 talks about a root of bitterness and it has to be pulled out and the only thing that can
38:04
pull it out is Jesus the gospel the only thing that can pull that out and they have to embrace it and say okay I was
38:12
wickedly sinned against there's no no question about that is black and white
38:17
you know whether it's locked in a basement or raped or gang raped horrible thing God have mercy on on men
38:24
that have done that to to young women especially um but that woman has got to walk in
38:31
Freedom she does not get an excuse for sin do she does not get the freedom to say well I can treat men this way
38:38
because of how wickedly I was treated no we don't retaliate we bless instead we
38:44
instead of condemning we we bless you know you know we would not that I'm
38:49
saying have contact with the the wicked man that did this right but the innocent man that you're married to now he didn't
38:56
do that but you know will they're blind to that they don't they don't see it
39:02
and it's the same thing that I see with pastors and counselors they're they're blind to these things
39:09
and there's two types of blindness I think at least two different types the one kind of blindness is an innocent
39:15
blindness they don't know any better they don't understand they haven't been taught they haven't been instructed they
39:21
haven't studied the scriptures enough it's kind of an innocent blindness okay okay I just I just don't get it
39:27
but the more frightening one is the prideful blindness yeah people
39:33
have tried to help them people have tried to tell them people have given them biblical information again whether
39:38
this is the wife that's been through the trauma or whether it's the pastor or counselor who is trying to help the
39:45
family there's a lot of pride in counselors and in pastors that keeps
39:53
them from seeing this problem I've talked to them that they don't they
39:58
don't want to see it they go well I'm going to have to admit that I'm wrong then oh and and it's like you know that that's
40:05
what they're saying inside they're not coming right out and saying I don't want to examine all the evidence
40:10
and um you know and the way it begins is
40:16
if you separate the husband and wife in counseling this is the most deadly part I don't even remember if we talked about
40:22
that I know we've talked about what's in the book it's in the book yeah but um separating the husband and wife and the
40:29
counseling in other words just counsel the wife alone and then just counsel the husband alone very deadly very wrong
40:35
absolutely the wrong thing to do and um here's what the scripture says Proverbs
40:42
18 13 if one gives an answer before he hears it's Folly and shame
40:47
so don't give an answer until you hear the whole story until you hear everything that's going on if you think
40:54
you can solve marital Strife but just hearing one side it's not going to go well
40:59
people are innocent until they're proven guilty not guilty until they're proven innocent you know this is this is
41:06
America I mean we still mostly believe that you know we've seen some weaponizing of the justice system
41:12
lately that uh that's the way our country was founded has founded on biblical principles that you have to
41:18
hear the whole story you have to give someone the opportunity to defend themselves um a few verses later Proverbs 18 17 the
41:26
one who states his case first seems right until the other comes and examines him
41:32
so you know I I can't tell you how many counseling situations they sound so
41:38
one-sided until the other spouse tells you the rest of the story you know like Paul Harvey used to say here's the rest
41:44
of the story you know we got to hear the whole side of the story not just hear one aspect of it and make a conclusion
41:52
based on that we've got to hear the whole story so we need the husband and wife together when these um situations
41:59
come up uh Proverbs 20 verse 19 whoever goes about slandering reveals Secrets
42:05
therefore do not associate with a simple babbler or a gossip when you counsel
Avoiding Separate Counseling
42:12
only one person at a time you're encouraging gossip you're encouraging
42:17
them to gossip about the other person and they're gonna you know they're gonna make the other person look bad this is
42:23
why when I counsel people I always request I say please husband and wife I want you both to come together
42:29
so that I can get the whole picture I don't want I don't want you to innocently gossip I don't want you to
42:35
wickedly gossip either I don't want you to you know to say something with your spouse not there
42:40
because it'll give you the wrong impression some people just innocently do that some people do it because they
42:45
want to destroy the other person but um this is this is what happens
42:52
um when we counsel separately and one more verse Proverbs 26 20. for lack of wood the fire goes out and where there
42:59
is no Whisperer quarreling ceases so if if they're both together one party
43:06
cannot tell the secrets of the other person that the other person doesn't want them to hear they they can't do
43:11
this if they're both there together you get the full picture so no so in essence you know the wife says XYZ and the
43:19
husband says well it's real not really the whole story here's the other part of that oh okay that gives me the counselor
43:25
the ability to discern what's going on and say okay not that she's trying to throw him under the bus but if I just
43:32
listen to her I would just assume he's this horrible Wicked Man this is what's happening
43:39
this is exactly what's happening at a lot of these counseling cases I've got many of them I could give stories
43:45
and these men have given me permission permission to tell their stories they won't give you their names but telling their stories that um pastors and
43:52
counselors will talk to the wife and the wife will say something like I don't feel safe like we talked about before
43:59
and the counselor makes up his mind and says boy this this is a terrible situation this man is just this is he's
44:05
a real problem I've had cases where they never talk to the man they don't even ask the man will
44:13
you talk to us they just make the determination they condemn him they're judge jury and
44:18
executioner and it's over it's done now I will say that I when I ask
44:25
husbands and wives please let's both of you counsel together sometimes the wife won't she says no I
44:32
don't want to cancel with you oh wow and I go okay why not well I'm not going
44:37
to any man or any biblical counselor or anything like that yeah so I go okay I'm not going to just leave the man hanging
44:44
up now I'm going to help him but I always ask please husband and wife please both come even if even if I'm
44:52
hearing that it's a reviling wife I still I have to hear her voice and hear
44:57
what she has to say I can't just assume just because the man says she's reviling that she is I have to hear them both
45:05
but if she won't even come for counseling I mean what other conclusion can I draw
45:10
so so that's the sad part and this is what's happening this is
45:16
I was telling somebody the other day it almost reminds me of the Salem witch trials in some ways that the man is the
45:22
scourge he's the wicked one he's condemned he's the evil one he's he's the one you know we don't even have to
45:28
get his testimony and um that's just that's just wicked and evil
45:35
and gossip type of count it's slander as well and it's tearing families apart
45:42
staring children apart from their parents and it's um you know again we get back
45:49
to this has got to be the enemy of our souls that's doing this the accuser of the Brethren that is
45:55
that is behind these things it's it's it's not being done in a corner either
46:00
will this is not well these are just rare very unusual circumstances no it's not
46:08
at all a lot of these men won't talk about it to anybody else because they get shut down
46:15
or because they're so embarrassed it's like it's humiliating to tell somebody what happened with my wife
46:21
it's humiliating to to say this is what my wife is doing and a lot of these men say
46:28
instead of my wife just reviling me non-stop I I wish she would just hit me
46:34
um that's how bad it is and then sadly many of them do I cover
46:40
that in my book too that many many of these women they do resort to physical violence
46:46
and um oh I had a had a story I wanted to
46:52
tell you about with that too um yeah please go ahead
46:57
I don't I have it written down somewhere but I'll just go by go by memory it was a case
47:02
with a man with a reviling wife and she was mad at him about something I
47:09
don't remember what it was but it was something insignificant something very small and so she just came unglued on him and
47:16
started just flailing at him physically hitting him hitting him hitting him over and over and over again
47:24
and um and he grabbed her wrists to keep her from hitting him
47:31
and she she was still she was kicking him she was doing this she was doing that and he and he said
47:38
you crazy and then he used the word that rhymes with which sure I think it's in my book
47:44
and um and so the police were called and you
47:50
know he became an ugly scene and so then the husband and wife are describing the scene so they're
47:56
pastor and their counselor and the pastor hears the story and then
48:02
he says well husband why did you use that word
48:09
you know the husband's like really that's what you're going to focus on
48:14
I mean she was flailing at me she was flailing on him like a wicked demon and
48:20
and all you have to say is why did you use that that bad word with your wife and you know that's that's what happens
48:27
it's like okay the guy is always guilty yeah and you know if that's the case it's like well the man's never going to
48:33
be not even neutral he's never going to win but he's never even going to be neutral
48:39
and as far as I know they never held that wife accountable for what she did to her husband and she was just disagreeing with him
48:45
about something it wasn't something harsh wasn't he wasn't calling her to sin he wasn't you know insisting that
48:51
she do something but uh um she just didn't want to do it and she was so full of Fury
48:58
that she was just flailing on him and he just held her wrists you know just just
49:04
right here not self-defense not choking her not you know nothing like that not getting her not slapping her not kicking
49:10
her and yet the counselor said what use that word for husband wow
49:17
that's what these men are up against and and again these are good pastors I
49:23
mean they're good counselors they they know the Lord they know God's word and that they just push it aside
49:30
and in essence they become bad counselors yeah yeah you know I know a
49:36
lot of these guys I mean the friends of mine I mean I know I know these guys and I go what what's going on no no no you
49:41
don't you don't understand the whole story so well I've talked to both parties I mean what what are you missing here well no you're
49:48
just you're just seeing what you want to see I go no I think it's the other way around you're seeing what you want to
49:54
see brother and um and there's where the pride comes in I'm above reproach I'm the pastor I'm
50:00
the counselor I see everything perfectly and you can't correct the pasture or the counselor then
50:06
so now I mean I've made plenty of blunders and mistakes as a pastor as a counselor
50:12
you know I don't claim to be they have a corner on the market of truth but
50:18
if if it's clear in the word of God that we should be counseling couples
50:24
together why aren't we doing that we're setting the men up
50:30
oh yeah we're abandoning men are abandoned they're they've been abandoned by their pastors
50:36
they've been abandoned by their society they've been abandoned by their fathers and when a woman decides that she's
50:43
gonna take a chunk out of a man with her words with her shame with her vitriol in
50:50
private and in public it happens often too there's no constraints on her at all
50:57
there's no one that can tell her anything and meanwhile TV magazines you
51:03
know the web is like you know you you go girl you're the strong independent hero
51:09
you don't need no man and the movie's reinforce all of this all the heroes
51:15
being shamed by the woman that shows up over and over and over again and there's no and and I can understand being in the
51:22
secular world where there's no constraint on that because they've thrown off God's law but you would think
51:27
that once you can come under the safe hierarchy of a church that a pastor might be able to consult the whole word
51:34
of God and identify a sin for what it is and hold the women accountable but when even the last line of defense won't do
51:41
anything won't speak up and say that's wrong that's sinful we're holding you
51:47
accountable in front of the church body when a pastor won't do that you're leaving men defend for themselves yeah
51:53
and that's love isn't it isn't that love to hold one another accountable absolutely it is I mean you know if if
51:59
you and I are friends and we love each other and we see sin in each other I mean you're going to gently approach you
52:04
would gently approach me or I would approach you and say Hey Brother I don't think this is a good idea you
52:10
know this seems like it's against God's word what do you think and you would hope that you would look at it and say yeah you're you know
52:16
you're right or or that I would look at and say yeah it's what you say is is
52:21
true but this is this is what happens What You Know The Narrative of the reviling
52:28
wife what does she want you know that's the question what does she really want what is what is she
52:34
doing what's what's this all about here's here's what I hear
52:39
and you tell you draw the conclusion you tell me what summarizes all of these things um I want my Independence
52:47
I don't want anybody to tell me what to do I don't need a man to make me happy
52:54
I want to live my own life I don't like the traditional family
53:02
being a mother is not a fulfilling role to me what is that
53:08
feminism it's feminism exactly what it is and yet that's The Narrative of the
53:13
reviling life those are the things she'll you're going to have listeners that are hearing this now and say oh
53:18
yeah I know women like that or maybe a woman that will hear that and say yeah that that is me and and here's my appeal
53:25
to women that are listening right now I don't hate you I don't despise you
53:32
I I want you to humble yourself under God's Mighty hand and listen to the word
53:38
of God and let it work in your soul and change you from being filled with yourself
53:45
to being filled with the presence of God and say it is a Godly thing to submit to
53:52
a man even an imperfect man which every man is I mean me included but this is
53:58
that's all all men in this club raise your hand that's all we're all raising our hands yeah well so
54:04
um this is how you obey and honor God this is how you follow Jesus Christ so
54:13
don't look at this and say I I've got to have my Independence I I don't need a man to be happy now I'm not saying you
54:20
have to be married to be happy but if you are married and you're miserable in your marriage
54:27
get help get new fetic help and meet with the counselor with your spouse so
54:34
that he can help you both and hold you both accountable when I count even when
54:40
I counsel men with reviling wives
54:45
I still hold the man accountable because of his reaction to what she's doing to him so in other words her reviling of
54:52
him does not give him the freedom to revile her back I mean we saw that in
54:58
Jesus right first Peter 2 and he was reviled he did not revile in return so it's like husband you can't revile or in
55:03
return yeah but she's she's doing this no you don't get a pass on this either you have to be a godly man before her
55:11
even in the midst of your trial even in the midst of your suffering that you're going through I know this is hard I know
55:19
this is painful I know it feels hopeless but it's not
55:24
it's not hopeless so so this is one of the things that I urge upon men with um
55:33
understanding what's going on what's God doing
55:38
what does he expect from me and I tell men this and they usually
55:44
don't get it at first but eventually they go I see what you mean now
55:49
this is going to be the most sanctifying time in that man's life what he's going through with the
55:56
reviling wife he's going to grow more through the trials he's enduring then
56:01
through all of the peaceful wonderful happy easy things in his life
56:07
I think we find that in our lives that the deeper and the darker the affliction
56:13
the more readily God can work and change us and that's what happens with these men
56:19
that really pursue the Lord with all their heart they don't just play Church
56:25
they're not just religious they're not just going through the motions they say all right Lord work in me there's things
56:31
about me why is this hurting me so badly well first of all First Peter 1 6 says
56:38
that some of our trials are necessary you know these are necessary if necessary you've been grieved by various
56:45
trials so first of all we look at that say okay this is this is needful I may not want
56:50
it but it's part of God's plan for me and it's not that the man is a bad man
56:57
it's not that he's a man full of sin but he needs these trials to be the school
57:02
in which God teaches him so what are some of the things that God teaches him one of the things he teaches
57:08
is compassion patience the King James translates the word
57:14
patience as long suffering makes it a very Vivid picture doesn't it long you have to be willing to suffer a long time
57:21
that's what a patient man looks like in Colossians 3 12 says to put this on
57:27
put on patience put on compassion put on meekness put on these things you have to
57:35
desire to become that kind of man through what you are enduring it'll make
57:40
you a better man the suffering is hard and painful and and it is very very much debilitating at
57:49
times that it will refine you it will sanctify you it will change you this is
57:55
what God is doing in that um a man will learn a lot about forgiveness
58:01
Matthew 6 verses 14 and 15 says for if you forgive the sins of others then
58:08
you'll be forgiven but if you don't forgive then you're not forgiven so forgiveness is not a peripheral idea in
58:16
Scripture it is Central and the only part in The Lord's Prayer which is Matthew 6 9 through 13.
58:23
the only part of that prayer that is repeated is in verses 14 and 15. the two verses
58:30
right after it are about forgiving forgiving one another this is what's the
58:36
hardest part for us to do is to forgive but it's also the most freeing and the
58:42
Beautiful and the proof of the work of God in your heart you are forgiving man that that's evidence that you are born
58:49
again you're not forgiving it's evidence you're not born again you say I can't
58:54
forgive I can never let that go that's giving the impression that well there's no hope for me I can't uh you
59:02
know I I there's there's no way that I could ever forgive my wife or what she did so same thing works for the wife
59:07
towards the husband too whatever she's holding against him she has to forgive him but again this is
59:13
a sanctifying thing this is what God is doing this is what God is sowing in the man's heart through all of his
59:19
afflictions and trials the man's going to learn about anger and bitterness and repentance from that
59:27
um Ephesians 4 31 talks about that Hebrews 12 15 we alluded to that before
59:33
about put it all away anger wrath slander bitterness let put it all away
59:39
from you we've got to get get that out of our Lives because it's not going to be constructive there is a place for
59:45
righteous anger but often I think what we do is we we justify our anger by saying well it's
59:51
righteous so therefore it's okay it's like be very very careful with that the
59:56
word of God calls us to repent from anger it's very destructive it can really harm
1:00:02
it can do some good with men that say I care about Justice I care about
1:00:08
righteousness okay good but be careful don't stay in that anger very long because it will destroy you it'll
1:00:15
destroy your witness your testimony and everything else but um
1:00:21
a man's going to learn boy why did I get so angry at what she said to me what she did to me
1:00:27
this is another another sanctifying time for that man um
1:00:34
learning how to Lament we don't talk very much about that either
1:00:39
Sorrows lamentation we've got a whole book in the Bible called the Lamentations right Jeremiah wrote it
1:00:46
and you see you know Jeremiah just as hard as Rift I mean he's called the weeping prophet well why he's lamenting
1:00:53
over the sins of his people and over the consequences of those sins upon an
1:00:58
entire nation and if you look at Lamentations chapter three it's really interesting
1:01:05
because he says you did this God you did this you did this you did no God did
1:01:11
these things like okay what does he mean by that and at the end of Lamentations three he's he's talking about learning
1:01:17
to wait on God so it's designed to draw the man to the Lord lamenting towards
1:01:24
God not lamenting in self-pity not lamenting in in feeling sorry for
1:01:30
yourself woe is me but lamenting in a sense of the loss that I have and I'm
1:01:35
waiting on God to restore and to bless and to change me and to soften my heart
1:01:43
sometimes that takes a long time but that's what's going on well I wanna I wanna jump in here and I say what about
1:01:50
her so I understand that we're being that a man can be put through this trial and
Supprting Reviled Men
1:01:56
let's say she's doing everything short of physical violence she's not standing over the bed with a knife right but the
1:02:02
the and let's say that it's a the couple doesn't have kids that's all because that's a whole other complex but she's
1:02:09
verbally abusive rebellious actively on a daily basis shaming and
1:02:15
public and in private gossiping about her husband even ruining his professional opportunities with her
1:02:21
loose mouth like she's doing everything she can to persecute her husband there's part of me that says yes absolutely to
1:02:30
everything that you're saying sanctification for real but there's another part of me that's like we can't
1:02:35
just leave this man to die in this dungeon for a woman who has no intention
1:02:41
to ever repent and who actually just wants to punish him out of the pure
1:02:46
Wicked bitterness of her heart is there no no and there's no hope for this man
1:02:51
do we just I mean I obviously the Lord is with him and and yes and but there is
1:02:57
a component of like the Lord helps those who help themselves can he leave can he
1:03:03
just say you know what I've had it I'm gonna I'm gonna move out we made a marriage covenant I get that not going
1:03:09
to get a divorce right but I'm gone like you don't get to pretend that you're in a relationship anymore I'm not going to
1:03:15
allow myself to be subject to this anymore at what point at what point can
1:03:20
a man simply say that you know I've had enough dialogue pardon my language but I don't know how else to say it yeah no
1:03:28
it's it's it's a it's a great question it's a great point
1:03:33
and it shows the compassion for the man yeah to even ask that question
1:03:38
because I know you're not asking it in the sense of saying I want this man to have an easy way out
1:03:44
no you know because that's not what we want and sometimes
1:03:50
the um the trials the afflictions that's God's
1:03:56
goal with the man so that he learns and grows and changes it's not
1:04:02
not about the marriage it's about him think of the Book of Job for instance
1:04:07
here we have job that he loses his children he loses his health
1:04:14
he loses the love of his wife and then even his friends turn against
1:04:20
him yeah it loses his kids yeah so he's he's got everything and he's lost his business too he's all of
1:04:26
his livestock's gone I mean he he's lost everything literally and then not only does he lose his
1:04:33
friends but he calls them worthless Physicians miserable comforters
1:04:41
and you go through the whole book of job and you're just waiting you're waiting for the answer okay God why why why
1:04:50
and you never get the answer do you because if you get the answer and say well this is why God did it then you
1:04:57
would say well that was that was the reason that's the purpose of all of this
1:05:02
but I think because it's left unexplained it's left unsaid why God did this
1:05:08
it's telling us what the answer is it's telling us that this is for the man to draw near to the
1:05:15
Lord and find that peace in his soul that only God can bring because nothing
1:05:20
in the world is going to bring it not his wife not his children that he's lost
1:05:27
not his three friends who are sadly
1:05:32
um you know erstwhile friends you know their former friends really they really are not acting like friends at all
1:05:39
he's um he's lost everything except for one thing
1:05:44
he's he's not lost his relationship with God and he is changed and grown and
1:05:50
Sanctified through that and so by the end of the books chapter 42 you see God rebuking the men
1:05:59
and saying job's going to pray for you because job has done what is right
1:06:05
and so you see that you know the men that I've talked to I urge them read the book of job again with new eyes with
1:06:11
fresh eyes and see see what God is doing
1:06:16
um he's trying to refine you he's trying to change you
1:06:22
and not that you're a bad man not that you're an evil man
1:06:27
but he wants you to be a better man he wants to be a better father a better husband a better leader now
1:06:33
I know I haven't totally answered your question it's like David you're still avoiding my questions like well
1:06:40
I don't understand I'm not really avoiding it I I don't want any men out there
1:06:45
to look at this and say well I've got justification to leave my marriage because of what
1:06:52
David and will talked about on the podcast I don't want men to have right that kind of a thought in their mind
1:06:59
because I think every case has to be looked at individually and examined and these men need help
1:07:07
they need somebody to come alongside of them not to condemn them but to talk with them and say okay let's
1:07:14
let's address this let's address that let's address your sin husband let's address the things that that you are
1:07:20
doing wrong not things that are causing your life to be this way but let's let's address those things let's not just run
1:07:27
away and get out of this marriage but you know it's easy for you and me to say that it's like I'm not in that marriage so let's let's
1:07:33
does hold on you know it's easy for us to say that but I don't want to make it easy for the
1:07:39
man to say I've got full justification to get out of this marriage too right that's too
1:07:45
much that's what a lot of men will do that are that are listening to this and I don't I don't want that I mean I hold I hold marriage in very very high regard
1:07:53
and yet I do no I do know that many of these men that
1:07:58
have counseled they lost their marriages and yet very few of the men
1:08:05
filed for divorce there's a few of them but very few of them did It's usually
1:08:10
the wife that does even though she's the guilty one even though she's the one doing the reviling
1:08:17
and the bitter controlling angry Wicked one what I do instead will is I encourage
1:08:25
the men to lovingly and kindly fear God rather than they
1:08:31
fear their wives stand and Lead don't back down
1:08:37
don't be mean about it don't be cruel don't be just yelling at your wife and saying you've got to submit to me woman
1:08:42
you know not any of that kind of nonsense but just lead be the man that God calls
1:08:49
you to be and now if the wife leaves you go well I've done what God wants me to do yes
1:08:55
I'm eating in a way that's oppressive I'm not ruling over my wife in a harsh way
1:09:01
but I'm kind of I'm putting everything forward so that okay
1:09:07
wife I I have led you in the wrong way I've been too passive
1:09:14
I have equivocated I've abdicated I have been complicit in things
1:09:20
and I've compromised I can't do that anymore because I have to fear God more than I fear you so I'm
1:09:26
gonna start making some changes and some things that are going to be different now I want you
1:09:33
to join me in let's glorify and honor God together
1:09:40
have a conversation something like that with your reviling wife now she may just blow up and say you know you're just a
1:09:46
toxic man and you know all that stuff or maybe she'll hear it and listen and say okay
1:09:55
okay I'll follow you yes rare rare but I have seen it I have seen it happen
1:10:02
but if she leaves now then the man can say look I've done everything I can
1:10:08
amen I have been the man that God calls me to be and if she leaves so be it
1:10:14
most of these men even after their wives divorce them and leave them they still love their wives they still oh I wish
1:10:21
you would recognize I wish you would come back I wish you know and sadly eventually there has to come a
1:10:28
point where the man has to say I just have to let her go not out of hatred not out of an abandonment but she doesn't
1:10:34
want to be under my authority and under my protection she's made that clear
1:10:40
she's on her own now yeah so I haven't directly answered your
1:10:46
question no you did that's what I'm that's the way I I try to help men because I
1:10:51
I don't want this to be a get out of jail free card same and yet
1:10:57
I just grieve for what these men are going through I just go oh this is so so
1:11:03
painful so lonely so hard and very few people understand what
1:11:09
they're enduring very very few you know I've had contact from
1:11:16
maybe two or three pastors and counselors around the nation
1:11:22
that have contacted me and said wow I like what you've said on your podcast
1:11:28
hopefully there'll be more with the podcast yeah but you know two or three
1:11:35
out of the thousands that have heard this and I go what's wrong with this picture am I a
1:11:41
bad guy are you a bad guy I mean are we just scratching where nobody's itching it's
1:11:46
like oh no we're scratching right we're men are riching and they're like man I need help here please please help me
1:11:54
I got a call this morning from a guy in Canada from British Columbia Canada that heard one of the podcasts and I go okay
1:12:02
what's what's going on with with you same story same exact thing it's it's almost like
1:12:09
it's a textbook case the men that read my book
1:12:14
that here one of these podcasts I've done they tell me the same thing they say
1:12:19
it's like you had a um a recorder and you are taping what's
1:12:27
going on in my house the conversation the way things play out
1:12:33
what I say what my wife says how do you know this so well
1:12:39
and I go I think I'm just faithful to God's word I'm just trusting what God says I'm nothing special
1:12:46
if nothing I'm not brave or courageous I'm just saying I have to stand where God's word stands and and I've seen this
1:12:54
so many times now that it's almost predictable
1:13:01
so um I'll make that available to people as
1:13:06
well it's kind of a dangerous thing to do this but any man or woman is listening to this podcast with you
1:13:13
you're free to contact me compassionate counselors is the ministry compassionatecounselors.com is our
1:13:19
website um my email address is Council the word at
1:13:26
pm.me so PM as in protonmail.me and uh
1:13:33
I'll even give you my phone number 602-384-4417
1:13:41
I edit out the phone number just in case that's up to you I'll let you I'll let you decide on that but I just want to
1:13:48
help I just want to help these families and I want to help these men because they need they they need this
1:13:53
help it's not it's not going away it's getting worse yes
1:13:59
and uh we need pastors to be leading the way in this we need new fetic biblical
1:14:06
counselors leading on this not figuring it out 10 years later
1:14:11
but leading the way on this because we're hurting people or we're
Calling Attention to the Problem
1:14:18
we're not only allowing people to get hurt but we are hurting them as well
1:14:24
we can't uh we can't just ignore that we can't just put that aside
1:14:30
men especially are being hurt absolutely men women are women have free reign and
1:14:36
license to harm men when when a man comes to me and says he's lucky for a church by the way there's like a thousand different tangents that that we
1:14:43
could that we could go on you know I always tell him when you go and meet with the pastor if you're considering
1:14:50
joining a church you have to ask the pastor three questions and that will tell you where the church is really at
1:14:55
question number one do women sin question number two do women sin against
1:15:03
men question number three are you capable of holding women accountable for sin
1:15:10
if he hesitates on even one of those questions leave
1:15:15
leave because you will be you will be abandoned now like you can get a sense
1:15:20
of you can like he may hesitate or answer like he answered correctly like you'll feel it out in the moment like
1:15:26
it's like oh you you know you you took a breath and I'm out you know so obviously you know use discernment with it but
1:15:32
there are far too many pastors that will that will answer no to one of those questions yes women sin yes women sin
1:15:38
against men no I'm not capable of holding women accountable for sin leave more willing to or willing to yeah able
1:15:44
and willing yeah because because otherwise you have men that again will feel like they've been
1:15:51
abandoned that they'll be held accountable for things that are not their fault that their wives will have
1:15:57
weapons free against their husbands and especially their children and this is something that I tend that I talk a lot
1:16:03
about on Instagram with some female content creators you know who are talking about motherhood like this we're
1:16:10
surviving of of their husbands it also goes down to their sons in many cases as
1:16:16
well yes and daughters in a different way but I mean maybe you can talk a little bit about the impact of the
1:16:22
reviling light of the reviling wife on her sons yeah it's on Sons and on
1:16:29
daughters yeah that's the revivaling wife has daughters
1:16:34
that are if not intentionally and deliberately trained in being reviling there by by
1:16:41
example they're being trained how to be a reviling wife when they grow up and
1:16:47
when they marry a man so it's deadly from that perspective because they have
1:16:52
an in inbred contempt for men because their mother does
1:16:57
and it's like I'm not going to trust any man I'm not going to entrust myself to any man I'm not going to follow any man
1:17:04
I Am Woman hear me roar you know I I'm strong and I can do whatever I want and and so
1:17:10
it's deadly for young girls that are growing up in that home but you mentioned for boys too same thing with
1:17:17
boys that they see their father Just Whipped verbally and and
1:17:23
demoralized and emasculated and if the man does not stand up and say
1:17:30
you know this is not going to keep going on we can't keep having this if he just abdicates again that young boy is going
1:17:36
to be that same kind of a young man and now we've got the problem just going down spiraling generation after
1:17:43
generation after generation and eventually someone has to stand and say look what do the scriptures say yeah
1:17:51
what does the word of God teach that's the kind of man I have to be but it is
1:17:56
very hard you know it's hard to be a leader when you don't have anyone that wants to
1:18:02
follow you isn't it yes yes you know I was like okay I'm the leader of my home I'm the head of our
1:18:08
home but the wife says I'm not following you and the wife says kids don't follow him because he's a bad man
1:18:15
it's very hard for that man to lead in his home but lead he must he must still stand and say
1:18:22
with gentleness with kindness with compassion but still be firm in his faith and say
1:18:30
I'm I'm not going to give in on this I'm not going to abdicate my role
1:18:36
so you're absolutely right it's it's like the curse that goes on generation to generation of those that hate God
1:18:43
and I'll say that as well that I probably implied it earlier
1:18:49
but these reviling wives are more than likely not born again
1:18:54
I was going to ask yeah I feel the same because there's no repentance there's no
1:19:00
sorrow there's no ownership of their sin I talked to a man yesterday that his
1:19:07
wife had just filed for divorce and she was a reviling wife I had
1:19:13
met with the two of them so I knew the situation and the man asked her
1:19:21
what part did you play in this the destruction of our marriage what part did you play in this wife
1:19:28
and she said it was 100 his fault 100 percent
1:19:33
and not only is that wrong it's the opposite of reality it's almost 100 his fault her fault
1:19:40
you know the man had some culpability in it but but nothing that would have ended the marriage nothing at
1:19:47
all and so there's that we get back to that blindness again and again it's a
1:19:53
prideful blindness it's not an innocent blindness that I just don't know any better it's a I'm digging my heels in
1:19:58
and I'm blind to the truth I'm blind to the reality that I sin just like anybody
1:20:05
else does I don't see how that person could be born again I really I really don't yeah
1:20:13
I've struggled with I've struggled with that as well you know because this is something that I'm that I mentor and counsel men through that I see very
1:20:20
often as um you know maybe they're they're the sons of reviling mothers their mothers taught them what to expect
1:20:26
from women they get into relationships with women who mirror that relationship with their mother it's a common human
1:20:32
thing that we do and then at some point the men wake up because they read a book or they encounter content and and we
1:20:38
start talking and start taking the pieces apart and it's like yeah okay I see that you're in a relationship with
1:20:44
you have a reviling wife to varying degrees and um and then they'll say but you know
1:20:50
we're in a Christian marriage it's like oh well or like you know my wife led me to Christ you know I was like and and
1:20:57
it's a very it can be very difficult to work through that I've been married for 20 years I became Christian because of her we had Christian vows and now 20
1:21:05
years on she's fully in Rebellion like hates God hates the Bible hates
1:21:11
everything and it's like I don't know was she was she ever a Christian to begin with these are no you know exactly
1:21:17
yeah no I've had the same thing I've had men that say you know my wife helped me she she got books by John McArthur and
1:21:23
John Piper and wow and this and that and and you know it really helped me as a
1:21:28
husband and a man and now she doesn't believe any of that stuff she just throws it all away and I go wow
1:21:34
really you know good you know good solid I mean all those guys are good solid guys I mean we don't agree with anything
1:21:40
they say but I go dad love to have a friendship with any of those guys and yet it's like no
1:21:46
so but we we know that knowledge puffs up knowledge is not enough it has to be
1:21:53
working in the heart doesn't it has to be changing your heart that's what the gospel does it changes and transforms
1:21:59
the heart where there's character that's developed and it's only developed by the spirit of God and what's the fruit of
1:22:05
the spirit love joy peace gentleness faithful self-control you know that that's what we look for and when we see
1:22:12
that we go that's the spirit of God working but then you look at the works of the
1:22:18
flesh we're in Galatians 5. you look at the works of the flesh what are they there's there's anger there's there's
1:22:24
all these forms there's like eight forms of anger that are mentioned there as works of the Flesh and it's like
1:22:31
that's what I see in my wife I see a lot of different forms of anger
1:22:36
but I don't see love joy peace faithfulness gentleness self-con
1:22:43
self-control I don't see that what's what's missing well don't become the judge of your wife
1:22:49
but evaluate and say boy I want to make sure those things are being built in my heart that's the fruit
1:22:55
that's the work of the spirit of God in my heart so
1:23:01
yeah the other thing I want to mention too that please um
1:23:06
when men go through this and they don't they don't get any help from their
1:23:13
Church now it goes into the secular courts
1:23:20
and now you got to play by the world's rules and the men lose yeah you played by the
1:23:26
secular court rules that the man the man loses you know years and years of child
1:23:33
support or what's called a divorce tax where you know he has to pay spousal support to his wife and and um
1:23:41
uh the church should be stepping in and saying we don't want you to go to the
1:23:47
courts we want to help you as the local church we want to Shepherd and Pastor
1:23:53
you your family and help you we're not the pastor of your family the
1:23:59
husband is the head in his home not the pastor of the family um
1:24:04
but we should be coming alongside and helping you not making it so that you have to go to the secular authorities to
1:24:11
get get resolution on this because you're not going to get resolution you go to the secular courts he's going to be a
1:24:17
train wreck and a disaster and it's got to be crazy expensive and it's going to destroy your family even more you know I
1:24:24
mean there's all kinds of things that are going to happen here so I I wish churches would take this more
1:24:31
to heart and say we have to help these men and if if there's a pastor or a
1:24:37
counselor listening to this podcast and a man comes to you Pastor or counselor
1:24:43
and he says some of these things about a reviling wife please don't dismiss him please don't
1:24:50
just say well he's obviously just a a toxic man he's obviously just a bad man
1:24:56
you know please listen to him and investigate it check it out he could be
1:25:01
deceiving you but he's probably not that's it now investigate it
1:25:09
I wanted to talk quickly if we can about some of the larger
1:25:15
societal issues that this ties to so obviously the family court system being
1:25:20
completely captured and twisted and being very anti-husband anti-father by
1:25:26
default it's like well we just default assume that the man is in the wrong and
1:25:31
we're going to take the kids from him and half of his income and we're not even going to investigate it that's just the presumption right but there's this
1:25:38
is showing up you know this General abdication to hold women accountable seems to be showing up society-wide and
1:25:45
as we were talking before we started recording it's it's widespread and these
1:25:51
are not coincidences that all these things are happening like there's something there's something larger going on and it's not just about the political
1:25:57
movement of feminism right exactly yeah no it's it's not you know politics is not the problem
1:26:04
politics is just you know kicking the can down the road um the the problem is that we don't we
1:26:10
don't have a Biblical view of anthropology we don't have a Biblical view of progressive sanctification
1:26:16
we don't have a Biblical view of christology of hamartiology of all of these things you know the study of study
1:26:23
of man the study of sin the study of sanctification you know we miss all of those things in the
1:26:28
church and it and it goes out into the society and even more to the point what the
1:26:35
society says gets into the church and it corrupts the church and then it goes back out into the society again and it
1:26:41
makes things worse so you know like we talked about a little bit in the beginning was the the
1:26:46
whole um Wok ideology is is a massive massive problem in the church
1:26:53
and I've had I've had pastors that I've talked to about that and they say oh I don't
1:26:58
believe in that stuff and I say brother you do you really do you don't you don't see it
1:27:04
well I don't embrace you know communism and Marxism and all that stuff well maybe not to that degree
1:27:10
but you're buying into it right here because you're automatically just kind of assuming
1:27:15
that you get the whole picture and and you don't so brother please please listen please
1:27:21
hear please hear what God has to say and um
1:27:27
so it's that it's that tension between gentle and compassionate
1:27:32
and being bold and forthright and say you know we have to be bold about this
1:27:37
we have to we have to be courageous and say we we have to say what is true and
1:27:43
right even if our culture opposes it because now we get back to fearing God rather than fearing man rather than
1:27:50
fearing the state rather than fearing what um a reviling wife might say or a church
1:27:57
might assume about you because you're just defending yourself
1:28:04
another thing um don't agree with a lie
1:28:11
so in other words if a man says well my wife is accusing me of this
1:28:16
and if I don't go along with her she's going to get really mad at me
1:28:24
don't just go along with her to keep peace yeah because all it is is a ceasefire it's not peace yeah you know
1:28:32
we have a ceasefire with China right now don't we but we don't have peace with
1:28:37
China okay nobody's killing each other at least overtly but would anybody say well
1:28:44
we have peace with China it's like well no we're just waiting for the next thing to come
1:28:50
same thing in the reviling wife in the marriage you can't just make peace your ultimate
1:28:56
goal you have to glorify God in your marriage you have to lead in your family you have
1:29:02
to honor the Lord Jesus Christ in what you do that's what you're called to you know
1:29:08
we're supposed to love the Lord Our God with all our heart our soul our mind and our strength that's the greatest commandment
1:29:15
and if we don't love truth enough to stand on the truth then we really don't love God with all our heart do we
1:29:22
or with all our mind yeah so you know the church should be
1:29:28
leading the culture on this and yet as we've seen for decades now the church follows the culture on this
1:29:36
and then we see these political things going on we're like why is that happening well our churches are not
1:29:43
honoring our churches are not faithful to God's word and um
1:29:50
and yet I know many great pastors good Brothers I've been here in the valley for 30 years and I've got a lot of good
1:29:56
friends that that love the Lord and love his word but I've also seen a number of them
1:30:03
lately in the past four or five years they've just abdicated yeah and just
1:30:10
kind of gone along with the culture in the world and I go
1:30:15
don't you understand that the world the Biblical term World means a society
1:30:21
and Rebellion against God why would you follow that is that what that is that an
1:30:26
actual that's an actual biblical term yeah the term world you look at it in first John and the Gospel of John you
The Meaning of "World"
1:30:32
know don't love the world or the things of the world what's he talking about he's not talking about the planet
1:30:37
he's not just talking about the people he's talking about the whole society that's in Rebellion against God that
1:30:43
doesn't want to follow God Hmm this is why we see all the
1:30:48
the gender confusion things yeah I was going to use the word transgender but it's not a real legitimate word it's not
1:30:55
a make-believe word it's good yeah it's a good point or like gay marriage that's not a it's not a real thing either not a
1:31:01
thing it's a make-believe world word but um you know we have to stand on
1:31:07
truth and we can stand on that with love we don't have to mock people we don't have to ridicule people we say no this
1:31:14
is what God says well who are you to say What God Says he wrote a book you know I got a I got a
1:31:20
book with 66 books in it that tells me what God says you know yeah and the author of that book says I'm the way and
1:31:26
the truth and the life no man comes to the father but by me I didn't make that up he said it not me
1:31:35
so but that's the way of Peace and Freedom Joy all the things that people want all
1:31:41
the things that people are craving and desire it comes through the good news it comes through the gospel it comes
1:31:47
through God working in the hearts of man and forgiving sin and becoming their
1:31:53
Lord he's their King and he will he will take care of everything in their life
1:32:00
so um I I think we have to we have to have
1:32:07
that that boldness and that courage will I mean I think that's what's really necessary but we have to have the
1:32:14
word of God as the authority the scriptures have to be the authority
1:32:19
um you know second Timothy 3 16 and 17 all scripture is breathed out
1:32:25
by God so all of it's breathed out by God and profitable for teaching for reproof for correction and training and
1:32:33
righteousness that the men of God may be complete and equipped for every good
1:32:39
work do we believe that we really believe that is breathed out by God and here's what
1:32:47
it does it does all these things we can't just add psychology to that or
1:32:53
Psychotherapy and say well we're going to come out with something better it's like no you're going to dilute what the word of God says you're gonna
1:32:59
you're gonna compromise on what the word of God says so we stand
1:33:04
boldly with that like Martin Luther here I stand I could do no other
1:33:10
God help me that that's where we have to be I think a lot of men
1:33:17
need first need to hear that message and but I think ultimately the bottom of many many Christian men uh would rather
1:33:25
listen to the word of woman rather than the word of the lord they're not they're
1:33:30
simply not strong enough constitutionally at the moment with spine and heart to really stand in the
1:33:36
word of the Lord and say no this is this is how it is this is how it is and if you think
1:33:43
proverbs 31 3 do not give your strength to women yeah it doesn't say to a woman it says
1:33:51
don't give your strength to women you know we're letting women lead and
1:33:56
they should not be leading and we're afraid we're afraid afraid to take the leadership Reigns from them
1:34:02
we're afraid to even say that to breathe that to them like you're not supposed to be leading I got a book that says it
1:34:09
right here we know because they can't stand up yeah
1:34:15
don't we can't fear we can't uh we can't back down we lovingly lead we
1:34:22
graciously lead we we say no this is what God says this is what we have to do
1:34:29
now a uh a woman with a good heart is going to
1:34:34
say boy great I'm protected yes that's what I want I want a man like
1:34:40
that but if a woman is listening to that and she hears this man is Harsh he's wicked he's cruel
1:34:48
he's domineering he's oppressed you're not hearing it you're not hearing it right because there are there's good men
1:34:54
like that out there I could introduce you to dozens of them I know a lot of these guys you know and
1:35:01
I'm sure you're one of them will from what I no views like yep I know plenty of men like that and um
1:35:08
uh but women think they're going to be happy by ruling and they're not
1:35:15
they're going to find that it's it's going to destroy him so it can destroy society as well
1:35:22
absolutely you see it around us destroy them destroy families destroy churches destroy Society it's it is
1:35:31
destructive sadly it's destructive do you have time for one or two more questions I know we're we're deep into
1:35:37
it at the moment yeah a couple more go ahead yeah okay so there was something that you brought up a while back that is
1:35:44
so important to the book and I want people to understand it because it's such a powerful phrase I wonder if you
1:35:49
can unpack your feelings are not sovereign because we live in an age that worships
1:35:55
feelings and certainly and certainly women are in many ways led by their feeling and their intuition which is one
1:36:00
of the reasons why we love them but there can also be a point at which the feeling is the one that takes control
1:36:07
so you and you did a great job with that in the books I wonder if you could talk about that idea
1:36:12
yeah the feelings are sovereign idea is that um a woman feels something and therefore in
1:36:21
her mind it's absolutely true and and you know and I mean on the surface you look at that you say well
1:36:27
that's kind of silly nobody does that do they go oh yeah they do yeah I've seen women that that say that uh
1:36:34
well you you have um uh
1:36:40
you have this idea that you are supposed to lead me and I feel like that is
1:36:46
oppressive I feel like that is Harsh I feel like this is
1:36:53
um not giving me freedom and the man will say well I'm really not trying to do
1:36:58
that um as I'm just remembering an example from
1:37:04
counseling from years ago where I literally had the husband and wife in my office
1:37:10
good and they're good friends today this is an example of a wife that's repentant about Corey violent so it's a good story
1:37:18
um but at the at the time I'm like this is just crazy what's going on so the husband and wife are talking and the
1:37:24
husband is describing something he's describing a situation he's very calm he's very gentle
1:37:30
he's not harsh or anything and the wife turns to him
1:37:35
and she says you're you're just a phony you're a fake
1:37:41
you're a fraud I feel like you are just you're just making the stuff up and you're not really like that and and you
1:37:48
know she's just accusing of all of these things because she felt that he was being fake and the husband turns to her
1:37:55
and says what what are you talking about what do you what do you mean and she says no you're really angry
1:38:01
right now you're saying things in a soft and gentle way but you're really angry right now
1:38:07
he's like no I'm just saying things very gently and you know and I know it's comical Now you listen to it now I'm
1:38:13
just watching this unfold in my office and I'm like what what is going on here every man's been through this yeah so I
1:38:19
stopped the conversation I said okay wife um he's gentle right yeah he's gentle
1:38:25
he's very soft-spoken yep he is and you know I just run through what I was seeing with the man
1:38:31
and I said but you see him as being angry when he's doing that yeah absolutely I know he's I know him so
1:38:38
well I know his heart I said oh wait a minute wait a minute you're assuming something about him
1:38:45
that's absolutely the opposite of that if he was harsh and banging his hand on the table and jabbing his finger in your
1:38:52
face and doing then I'd say okay he probably is Harsh and angry and mean right now but that's not the case he's
1:38:59
the opposite of that why would you judge his heart so harshly well it's because that's what I feel but I feel that way
1:39:07
so she didn't say the words but my feelings are sovereign and and so in this case
1:39:14
it just took a lot of time with her and kind of walked her through that and she she eventually saw that she was
1:39:21
being quite foolish and judgmental she repented and changed
1:39:26
but uh that's an example you know my feelings are all that matters and the
1:39:32
husband is quiet and he's soft and he's gentle well you're prideful well you're being angry right now you're
1:39:39
you're really angry even though you're using gentle words like what why what do you mean by that well I feel that's what
1:39:46
you're doing I go you can't just operate by feelings because feelings are deceptive
1:39:52
and feelings I I mean some of this comes from the enemy that you know okay attack
1:39:57
your husband now go after him because he's being a phony and a fraud and
1:40:03
um you know you you you can't just make that kind of a judgment it's irrational it's illogical it's it's cruel it's
1:40:11
vindictive so your feelings are not sovereign your feelings don't determine truth I mean
1:40:16
truth is is what's a fact so so that's an example of that where often wives
1:40:24
they're very feelings driven often they feel things and therefore they
1:40:30
assume it to be true and um you know just have to gently be
1:40:35
urged let's step back a second let's kind of think this through let's let God's word renew and change our minds
1:40:43
here because I don't think you're seeing this right so that's an example of the feelings are
1:40:50
sovereign I know I go into a lot more depth in my book on that but um I would encourage your readers to get a copy of
1:40:56
my book I don't get a lot of royalties out of this so it's not like making a bunch of money off of this but yeah
1:41:02
it'll help men and women in in a variety of ways to um to really
1:41:08
see what's going on yeah to make to make feelings your your highest Authority when feelings are are
1:41:15
subject to facts and also to the word of God that's the Sovereign Authority in
1:41:20
the room right now exactly and so I think that the last thing I want to ask is what has it been like for you in the
1:41:28
eight years since you wrote the book because I mean it was a it's a big deal to step out on these topics today and
1:41:34
you were out front on them eight years ago and as you've written the book you've watched the societal condition get worse around these very issues and
1:41:42
meanwhile again like a voice crying out in the wilderness you've been talking about this on on the front lines in a way I haven't found anyone else really
1:41:49
talking about so what's it been like for you to get to this point and what's happening for you now
1:41:55
well it's it's been a very slow thing really that um I've had men
1:42:02
over the years over the eight years since the book that have contacted me and they they always find me and they
1:42:08
say okay we want to talk with you but until about
1:42:13
a few months ago it's really been kind of quiet not really a lot of attention not really a lot of
1:42:20
um uh people that are interested to talk about it
1:42:25
until the last few months and now it's like wow it's just off the charts it's a whole it's a whole other ministry that's
1:42:31
developing now because of this yeah I've got a group of men that were
1:42:37
were strategizing and praying God what what can we do what what do we do because there's a lot of men out there
1:42:43
that that need this help and they're coming out of the woodwork and
1:42:48
um I mean literally I'm sure after this podcast I'm going to get flooded with more emails and phone calls too I hope
1:42:54
so and you know and part of me goes oh no but also part of me goes good
1:43:01
you know what I say to the men that join our online group I said I'm sorry that you're here but we're glad to help you
1:43:07
that's kind of been our motto I'm really sorry that you're here because I know what you're going through
1:43:12
but I'm glad we can help you and um we haven't gotten too much opposition
1:43:19
yet I know it's coming I know it will come eventually
1:43:25
probably because nobody knows who I am you know but I keep doing podcasts people are going to know who I am and
1:43:30
it's like okay now I am going to get you know attacks and things like that but again ultimately we go we have to
1:43:38
honor God we have to say Lord what do you want to do how can we be a part of
1:43:44
advancing your kingdom not my kingdom but yours um I'm not getting rich off of this I'm
1:43:51
not getting Financial um blessings off of this it's it's simply
1:43:58
to say let's be faithful to the word of God and that's all that I want I just
1:44:05
want the church to be honoring and glorifying the Lord and helping these
1:44:12
suffering men so um so it's been good it's it's been good
1:44:17
to see so many men getting getting help but I need help
1:44:22
with this too well I can't do it myself yeah that's why I'm glad to have these men
1:44:30
that I've been working with some of these men I've been working with them for several years and they're really
1:44:35
growing and changing in wonderful ways some of the men are new on this journey it's like man they're right in the
1:44:41
middle of it right now like some of the men that we've that you and I know and um so every man's in a different
1:44:48
different situation different place these are young men they're men in their 20s and 30s these are older men men in
1:44:55
their 60s and 70s it's not any one segment of society some of these are
1:45:01
very wealthy men some of these are men that can barely pay their bills it's not that there's nothing that's
1:45:08
common in this except that they're the gentle kind compassionate
1:45:14
sweet men not not wimpy men but men that
1:45:19
are um they're willing to go along they're not men that are insisting on
1:45:26
their way but eventually with the reviling wife you know it becomes why do you keep
1:45:34
dictating to me wife why do you think that that's your role to just insist on
1:45:40
things being your way so we get right back to Genesis 3 16 again
1:45:45
her desire is contrary to the husband so yeah God's curses are legit they are
1:45:52
yeah well thank you so much thank you so much this has been wonderful conversation and
1:45:59
I I sincerely hope and pray that this blesses many men and women listening and that they pick up your book I'll link it
1:46:05
in in the show notes and and uh be talking about it as well in the introduction you've already so
1:46:10
graciously provided your email address and phone number and website I don't know if there's other places you want to
1:46:16
send men if you have a YouTube channel or social media or anything like that or how people can donate to support your
1:46:22
ministry how would you how would you like people to be able to to support you and help you today
1:46:27
yes you know I'm I'm not really into social media very much at all yeah but
1:46:33
um you know which is probably a good thing in some ways but yes but if people
1:46:38
wish to donate to the ministry you can go to our website compassionatecounselors.com and you can
1:46:43
donate right there and that would be that would be very kind if people would
1:46:48
would do that just so we can continue doing the work that we're doing and and like I said we're going to need more
1:46:54
help and we are in the process of developing a whole another Ministry that is
1:47:00
connected to compassionate counselors you know they don't even have a name for it yet but it's something like the reviling wives Ministry to help these
1:47:07
men so um so thank you thank you for having me on well it's been great to get to
1:47:13
know you and you're a fellow Phoenician and a lover of God and lover of man and and thank
1:47:19
you thank you for the good work that you're doing
Transcript
0:00
so if you're not Discerning and thinking this through you're just going to rush to her defense and you're automatically
0:05
going to start condemning the man this is what happens and the man never gets an opportunity to
0:11
defend himself to say this is what's going on you know let me explain you know
0:17
and anything the man does to try to explain the situation now you're being defensive now you're being prideful and
0:24
you know you're obviously uh you know so upset about this and look at how mad you're getting she's probably right
0:31
about you in fact she is right about you so it just kind of snowballs from there
Introduction
0:42
my guest this week is Dr David Edgington and he's the author of the outstanding book The abusive wife but he proposes
0:49
that the term abusive while familiar isn't exactly accurate a better more biblical term is reviling which he says
0:56
quote focuses on the verbal aspect of mistreatment of others it entails using
1:01
speech as a non-contact weapon against another person to revile is to strike another person it is speech that is
1:08
Harsh and arrogant not only in tone but also in content in substance reviling speech often resorts to mocking ridicule
1:16
and insulting language within the Christian church in recent Generations pastors have specifically overlooked
1:22
this form of abuse of men in their rush to apologize for perceived wrongs of the past does this sound familiar it's not
1:29
hard to connect the dots that as pastors churches and denominations bend the need
1:34
to woke and rainbow Flags they're actually continuing a trend that began long ago succumbing to what I call the
1:41
feminist the apology that women are Eternal victims and every knee must bow to their Almighty feelings now here's
1:49
the thing David wrote his book eight years ago having been in countless biblical or new fetic counseling
1:54
sessions and seen that the husband and wife seem to be playing by different sets of rules the man imperfect as all
2:01
men are but kind accommodating and loving the woman meanwhile is Harsh controlling and unrepentant she refuses
2:09
to be held to the biblical standard of not just submissiveness but of graciousness or even kindness to the man
2:15
she married she Rebels against him in word tone and posture I've seen this in my own mentorship practice and David's
2:21
book gave me better language to talk about it now eight years after the publication of the book as American
2:27
society is being consumed in a feminist-driven conflagration it's hard not to call Dr Edgington just a little
2:34
bit prophetic and quite a bit more than heroic which is why I'm honored to have David on my podcast today not only is he
2:41
a man of great moral courage having called attention to the real world impact of these behaviors for almost a
2:47
decade he also counsels couples on how to come out of this way of being he supports men and how to survive or even
2:53
be Sanctified by it and he helps men to recover from women who have abused them left and worse and praise God there are
3:00
voices like David's calling out from the Wilderness with gentleness firmness and
3:05
an unyielding commitment to the word of God preparing the way for the great Reckoning with truth that must come
3:11
before the great reconciliation in our conversation David and I discussed his excellent book The abusive wife how to
3:18
recognize a reviled husband wokeness and Christianity women and their anger the
3:24
danger of the secular courts how abuse can sanctify us and why women's feelings
3:29
are not sovereign if you enjoy the Renaissance of men podcast thank you please like this video share it and
3:36
subscribe plus leave a comment down below letting us know if you think the image of the reviling wife it's a little
3:41
bit too close to home the Renaissance of men podcast is proudly sponsored by Reformation coffee Pastor Brandon
3:47
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4:40
lifetime streaming license there you can watch more than seven hours of content that'll help women renew their vision
4:46
for Godly femininity and please welcome this week's guest on the podcast the founder of compassionate counselors and
4:52
the author of The abusive wife Dr David Edgington David thanks so much for joining me on the podcast
Interview Start
4:59
great to be here will thanks so much for inviting me well I mean it's it's a as we discussed
5:04
it's a long chain of friends that led us here today starting with a feminine not feminist and my buddies Kevin and and
5:10
Richie so um it's a it's a real blessing to have this conversation because you know I have your book here the abusive
5:16
the abusive wife which I want to get into but you're talking about a subject that many men and many women are really
5:22
waking up to but you've been talking about it for a while so kind of leading the way is like a voice crying in the
5:29
wilderness so maybe we can get started with like what inspired you to write the book when did you write the book what's
5:34
the story behind it well first of all the um
5:40
I did a search trying to find biblically oriented books on this because I kept running into it and counseling I'm a
5:46
full-time new fedic counselor I still like the word new fetic rather than just biblical because it says something a
5:53
little more biblical yeah um and uh and I found nothing on this topic nothing
5:59
from a Biblical perspective and as far as I know there's still nothing biblical
6:04
on this issue and yet there are men out there that are
6:09
suffering so badly I mean I was I was I was weeping last night because I know so
6:16
many men personally good solid men that are not only getting
6:21
maligned and reviled that's the Biblical word reviled by their wives
6:28
but they're getting condemned not too strong a word condemned by their churches
6:33
and by the past years and by counselors even counselors that
6:39
are certified in the same group that I'm certified in and it is it is a
6:45
it's a pandemic it's it's something that is widespread I wrote my book eight
6:50
years ago wow and it's uh it's gotten far far worse I never dreamed how much
6:57
attention this subject would get and let me talk a little bit about publishing
7:03
the book too I have a a very kind recommendation from Jay Adams basically the father of biblical
7:10
counseling movement new fetic counseling and you know he and I talked about it he
7:16
really enjoyed the book he says boy this is this is really good there's nothing like this out there
7:21
and I thought that when I got a good recommendation from a solid man like that that it'd be easy to publish the
7:26
book I couldn't get any Christian Publishers to publish it not surprised they told me it's too controversial they
7:33
told me it's it's hating women I said did you read it I don't hate women I
7:39
mean it's the farthest thing from my mind some people said there's not that
7:44
this is not that big of a problem um I got all excuses and I thought this is
7:50
really strange so I had to self-publish it Amazon published it Liberal Liberal Amazon published it and
7:58
I go praise God for them you know that uh they're willing to to allow it to be self-published so
8:04
but uh but this is not this problem is not going away we're talking now in June
8:09
2023 and this is way way worse than it was in 2015 when I wrote the book yeah I
8:16
like how you know you're using such solid biblical terms to start with new
8:21
FedEx reviling condemn like these are these are this is biblical language to use to explain a problem and identify a
8:29
problem that a lot of people don't want to look at and because they don't want to look at it it's getting worse like
8:35
that's how these things tend to go exactly and I in a point of clarification people often ask why did
8:41
you use the word abusive wife why didn't you call it the reviling life and the simple reason is most people don't know
8:48
what reviling means right so I had to use a word that's common in our culture and then first two chapters I Define
8:54
well abuse is really not the best term you know abuse can talk about sexual
8:59
abuse emotional abuse again talking you know abuse becomes anything if you and I just agree on something you're abusing
9:06
me so it means really nothing but the Biblical word revile
9:11
is using words as a non-contact weapon where I seek to destroy you I seek to
9:18
not only in in in tone but also in content to destroy and and rip you apart
9:25
so um so revile um I don't know if you want to talk
9:30
about this yeah let's let's get in let's get into it yeah you know the word the word revile in John chapter 9 the man
9:38
born blind was reviled by the Jewish leaders it says they reviled him saying
9:44
you are his disciple but we are Disciples of Moses so it wasn't I don't think it was said as kindly as I
9:51
just said it it's it's that's you know you're his disciple and we're Disciples of Moses so they're trying to destroy
9:58
this man they're trying to ruin ruin him with their words um they're mocking him
10:04
uh in First Corinthians 4 12. it says that when we are reviled we bless so
10:10
there's the picture of antithesis okay when we're reviled we do the opposite we bless instead so if you want to know
10:16
what revile looks like it's the opposite of blessing someone
10:22
um Jesus when first Peter 2 23 says that when he was reviled he did not revile in return
10:30
so see verbal scorning evidences a Hardness of Heart and as we know Jesus
10:38
didn't have a hard heart he was he was perfect in every way so he didn't retaliate in the same way that that they
10:44
were going against him and then one of the most glaring ones is Matthew 15 4
10:51
where it says that whoever reviles his mother or father must be put to death
10:56
so that's telling us that this is a serious serious sin First Corinthians 5 First Corinthians 6 talks about that
11:05
reviling is grounds for church discipline we think of
11:12
uh you know sexual immorality we think of drunkenness we think of all kinds of reasons for church discipline but we I
11:20
really don't know any churches that have done church discipline on a woman for
11:25
reviling her husband I know somewhere then is accused of being real violent but uh but but not
11:33
not the woman so you know so when that's listed in the in the uh the options of
11:40
why church discipline is necessary reviling is right in there so if that's the case this is obviously serious
11:47
enough that we have to address it we have to hold everyone accountable for
11:53
this so before we go any further well I want to make a clarification too because
12:00
I am never I never deny that men are revilers too right I mean you have to
12:07
say state that because people say oh you're on this podcast the reviling wife the abusive wife you must hate women and
12:13
it's like absolutely not I know many men that that fit this description I'm not saying they they don't exist at all
12:20
they're out there too but the problem we're seeing now is that there are women out there you know men
12:26
and women sin pretty much the same amount I think yeah I think Romans 3 23
12:31
applies to everybody yes on that so asterisk all except for women
12:38
right any more than children gonna pass a nut or the elderly get a pass on it's like you know why would we expect
12:44
anything less right but but we live in such a feminized culture
12:49
right now where the feminist voice is so strong and so powerful that that women do get a pass on this
12:58
and so that's I think that's why you have me on the podcast like okay this was the abusive man you know everybody
13:03
say oh yeah no plenty of men like that but the abusive wife or the reviling wife
13:08
we're gonna see more and more people that say I know women like that
13:14
um and I and they contact me too they say I know women like that I've got some reviews that were written on Amazon by
13:21
women that say I know plenty of women like that and then I also know humble women that say you know what I have
13:26
tendencies in that direction myself so thank you for writing writing your book
13:32
yeah that and I I completely agree I've known many women like that
13:38
um you know in my family for example or um just meet them you know I I uh I
13:44
interview often I speak with a woman named Allison Armstrong and she she has a book called The
13:49
Queen's code about how to speak to men about her Awakening to the essentially to the humanity of men because she had
13:55
grown up a feminist and was taught how to relate to men in a particular way and then she realized that men are way more
14:01
complicated than just like dogs or pigs or whatever she recognizes we're actually human beings right with our own with our own way of being that's
14:07
completely different from from women almost like we're designed to be complementary to each other and so she
14:13
spent the past 30 years educating women on how to on how to speak to men and see them but she still sees this kind of
14:20
behavior all the time and she documents it in the book like women that are just they can't harm men physically in quite
14:26
the same way because they lack the physical strength but they have the ability to absolutely cut us apart with
14:33
with words um circles around men can't they that's right that's right they go around and
14:40
around around the man's like wait a minute what's going on I gotta address this and that and and he's just he's just pummeled pummeled with the words
14:46
but it's not just the the Avalanche of words not just the number of words is it
14:52
it's it's the it's the the heart behind the words it's the freight behind the
14:57
words it's the destructive it's the condescending it's the holding in contempt it's the unforgiving it's the
15:05
never apologizing that's these are all the traits that we see in the reviling life that uh you know she's Relentless
15:13
in that and you know she'll never apologize yes she'll never ask forgiveness which is you know two
15:19
different things but you'll never do either one of those very rarely will she do those things
15:24
so she's above reproach in her mind and really as the scriptures say this is
15:30
just simple pride and uh deadly Pride yes very much so and not only that they
15:36
won't the only Redemption is if you completely capitulate exactly there's no
No Escape
15:42
reconciliation there's no like if you just if we can work out the misunderstanding maybe we can come
15:47
together it's like no you I Must Destroy you totally and you have to bow the knee
15:53
to me and then and then I will release you from the suffering that's how that ends up playing isn't it amazing that
15:58
it's parallel to cancel culture woke ideology it's like boy it sounds an
16:04
awful lot like that doesn't it yes because it is that's what it is it's woke ideology
16:10
it's infiltrated good solid conservative Bible teaching churches
16:15
and we got to wake up to this we got to say wait a minute we we can't just capitulate we can't just apologize and
16:21
say you know we have to apologize to every woman who's ever made any accusation it's like
16:27
you know as I mentioned on one of the podcasts the metoo movement has has kind of gripped people in a way that says
16:34
okay just believe any woman for anything that she says and I go well I'm not going to disbelieve any woman
16:40
but I you know you have to ask some good questions you have to find out what's really going on what's what's happening
16:47
with this here's an example um one of the common phrases that you'll
16:55
hear from the reviling wife is that I don't feel safe around my husband
17:03
I don't feel safe and you know so now as a man as a man that loves women wants to
17:08
protect women wants to guard women from harm what is the typical man gonna do
17:14
even a man that's not a pastor that's not a counselor the typical man who's going to run to her defense and say whoa
17:20
boy I got to protect you because you're in danger those are emotionally charged words I don't feel safe
17:27
so if you're not Discerning and thinking this through you're just going to rush to her defense and you're automatically
17:33
going to start condemning the man this is what happens and the man never gets an opportunity to
17:39
defend himself to say this is what's going on you know let me explain you know
17:45
and anything the man does to try to explain the situation now you're being defensive now you're being prideful and
17:52
you know you're obviously uh you know so upset about this and look at how mad you're getting she's probably right
17:59
about you in fact she is right about you so it just kind of snowballs from there
18:04
so it's so instead what I do when a woman says that
18:10
to me with her husband here I I say what what do you mean you don't feel safe has he beat you as he hits you
18:18
has he threatened you has he got the knife or a gun and said if you don't do what I say I'm gonna you know is he
18:25
doing anything like that and almost without fail will they say well no he
18:30
hasn't done any of those things I said well help me understand what do you mean I don't feel safe
18:36
and usually what it comes down to is that well he's asking me to do something that I don't want to do
18:43
and I say okay is it something sinful he's asking you to do well no he's just you know I don't really want to follow
18:49
him I I know better than he does maybe you do but what does the scripture call you to
18:55
do what is the one command on God's word for you as a wife it's to submit to your husband
19:01
and that's a word that we don't want to use anymore submit it's like oh it's a the cursed s word you know it's like boy
19:08
you know don't you find yourself saying oh boy if I use the word submit with a woman she's going to come unglued on me
19:15
sometimes that's what happens and and we've been beaten down so much it's like
19:20
wait we're failing to use the biblical language that is inspired by God that
19:26
says a wife must submit to her husband now again we're not talking about a wife
19:32
that's getting beaten up a wife that's getting you know hit and knifed and threatened and and
19:38
all of that we're not talking about that you know if you're a wife in that kind of a marriage get out of there get out of the hole get your get your children
19:45
out of the home we're not saying submit to a man that's just evil and wicked however we are looking at furnaces First
19:52
Peter chapter 3 that says that even a man that's disobedient to the word the wife needs to submit to him
19:58
so even a man that's not quite getting it the wife's role is still to follow him
20:06
to submit to him and submission doesn't mean I'll go along with you as long as I
20:11
agree with you that's the other that's the other mistake that's often made is like well if my husband says something
20:17
and I agree with it then I'll submit to him I said well that's not submission no you know submission is I don't agree
20:23
with him but I willingly put myself under his authority because this is God's Authority this is the way God has
20:30
established Authority and that's where you're safe now you are safe but you go
20:35
out of that order now you really are unsafe not for the reasons you think you're unsafe but now
20:41
you're unsafe because you're disobeying not just your husband you're disobeying God
20:46
be very careful with that so I know I kind of took down on it we
20:52
were a tangent there no please this touches on so many different everything just relates doesn't it so it really
20:58
does I was listening to a Doug Wilson book uh called her hand in marriage that's about uh courtship and the
21:05
biblical courtship process exists to protect women from just that sort of
21:11
situation where you have you know a potential Suitor going to her father and having to win or earn her father's
21:18
approval because she's under she's under the headship of her father and then she's passed to the headship of her
21:25
husband right that's how that that's how that works and that process exists to
21:31
protect the woman from unrighteous ungodly men that she won't want to submit to right the father is there
21:38
vetting but when we blew apart the courtship process and created this individualized well let's just let's
21:44
just fall and have relations with each other and get our hormones all mixed up and believe that love is the most
21:49
important thing love is all you need we broke apart that um that chain that
21:54
existed for the women's benefit and now we're living in the in the aftermath of that detonation where everyone's having
22:01
to figure it out for themselves and so you have I think you have women entering into marriages carrying that Shield you
22:08
know like nope not not going to submit it's like well hold on just a second here like why did you end up with him in
22:14
the first place I've asked women that question and they don't they really don't like being asked that question yeah yes yes yeah
22:21
no just because a man is trying to lead does not make him a toxic man that's true that does not make it systemic uh
22:29
sexism um you know all of those things and and here's the other thing that's
22:34
interesting about the the husband of a reviling wife not only is there a very clear picture
22:41
of what the reviling wife looks like there's also a very clear picture of what the husband of a reviling wife
22:47
looks like yes he's usually very gentle he's very kind he's very compassionate
22:53
he loves his children he would give anything for his children sacrifice
22:58
anything for his children and yet he tends to be more on the
23:03
passive side of things he's kind of naive about things he's kind of he's kind of too gentle in some ways
23:10
so he's not a harsh angry mean cruel vindictive retaliatory man it's not that
23:17
at all he's the exact opposite of that but that's the kind of man that a
23:22
reviling wife is going to be drawn to because now she can control him
23:28
now she can you know Pummel him with words now her bitter heart comes out
23:34
even stronger because he's not a leader he's not the kind of leader that she's looking for but really she doesn't want
23:41
a leader she wants someone that's going to follow her yeah we get all the way back to Genesis 3 16 you know which is which is
23:49
where all of us started where where did all this start well that's you know that's that's where it started and I
23:54
love the esv's translation on this I think it's the most faithful to the Hebrew
23:59
um Genesis 3 16 your desire shall be contrary to your husband and he shall
24:05
rule over you so it brings out the point that the wife's desire is contrary to the husband
24:13
it's not a Godly desire it's not a kind desire because this is a result of the fall and so this is already the
24:19
Temptation for women now not every woman falls into that category and and and
24:25
plays that out in in real life but this is where this is where it began
24:31
began right at the fall of of Adam and Eve the other side of it is and he shall
24:36
rule over you that's just as ungodly that's the man oppressing the woman so there are men as we've said that are
24:43
like that as well that are harsh that are cruel that are vindictive that are you know beating their wives down
24:49
verbally and sadly many are beating them down physically as well which is wicked and sin we never never give a pass to
24:56
that but these two words in Genesis 3 16 desire
25:02
and Rule they only occur in one other place in the Bible it's in Genesis 4 7 the next chapter after Genesis 3 and and
25:11
there it's with um Cain and how sin has a desire contrary
25:17
to him but he must rule over it so it's a picture to say okay this is what it looks like sin Wants to Rule and control
25:24
and is contrary to God's Will and he has to push back on that and say this this
25:30
is not this is not allowed this is not appropriate so it kind of explains what's going on in Genesis 3 16 write in
25:37
the next chapters I mean it's no coincidence that God put those two words one chapter after the other but that's where it
25:44
comes from you know this is where because that's what people say where does this come from and um
25:50
another area that it's that it comes from also is I have found
25:56
yeah I just I've just kind of found this out because I've counseled so many of these kind of marriages
26:03
um there's usually been some very very deep and painful trauma in this wife's life
26:12
when she was a little girl she's raped she was molested
26:17
she was physically assaulted by her brothers or her father you know there's
26:22
all kinds of all kinds of things like that and so as she gets older as she
26:28
ages she gets triggered by these things with her husband even though he's not doing
26:35
the same thing it's like this just feels exactly like what my dad did to me or this feels like what that rapist did to
26:41
me and so then she projects that onto him onto her innocent husband
26:46
and you know and part of it we just go I feel so bad for these poor women what they've experienced you know so so
26:53
here's another here's another consequence another fruit of how wickedly some men have treated
27:01
women and we're seeing the consequence of that now in the marriage relationship we're seeing that wow that is
27:08
destructive in another another Avenue now and the same demonic
Passing On Abuse
27:16
um work that was done with the rapists with the man beating the little girl with the
27:22
man molesting the little girl the same demonic influence there it comes out later
27:27
in a demonic influence on the wife towards an innocent husband towards the husband hasn't done these things
27:34
so here's a whole nother Avenue I mean I know we've got so many tangents will that we could talk about no I know but
27:39
here's another one parental alienation this is this is just so it is so
27:47
Grievous it is unbelievable we've I hear these stories and I know them I know
27:53
these men I'm not making this stuff up that they get accused of the most wicked
27:58
and evil things they're like where is this coming from why would my wife or my daughter my adult daughter make these
28:05
accusations against me I was just reading one of these emails I got this morning from a man that has basically
28:11
lost everybody in his family through false accusations of sexual
28:18
molestation of rape of you know just just things you go gosh this would have
28:23
to be this wicked monster evil man to do this and yet I know this guy I've known
28:29
him for years he's not that kind of man and his story is not unique I hear it over and over
28:36
and over and over again where the where the wife becomes so embittered against
28:42
her husband that it's not enough to just divorce him then she wants to destroy him she wants
28:50
him to lose his job she wants him to lose his reputation she wants him to go to prison she wants him to just be have
28:56
no contact with anyone in the family and there are men that that I've counseled
29:03
men that are in my I have an online group of men that I meet with and their stories I mean anybody hearing
29:10
their stories would just absolutely weep over what's going on men that have not talked to their
29:16
families in years one man that has a a son a son that's not even a teenager
29:24
yet and the court has ordered him to have contact that that son to have contact
29:30
with him and the son is just yes no yes no bye and you know that's that's the
29:37
substance of the relationship so imagine what that does as I said
29:42
before to a man that already loves his family a man that already would give
29:47
anything his first family and now that family is ripped apart from him so parental alienation a whole nother
29:53
subset of the reviling wife it comes with this it comes with that territory sadly and
30:02
um you know there's a book that needs to be written on that too from a Biblical perspective I you know I've got a dozen
30:08
books in my mind that I just don't have the time or the self-discipline to get them all done right
30:14
but but it's you know you laugh at it but you cry about it you go oh Lord please help these men please
30:22
you know not only relieve them of their suffering but restore reconcile these relationships that have just been torn
30:29
apart so that's a whole a whole nother area
30:35
um maybe we should talk a little bit about what the scriptures say how it describes
30:42
a reviling wife there's a lot there's a lot in the Book of Proverbs on this
30:47
interesting interestingly enough I'll just kind of run through a few of them just always say don't uh take a lot of
30:55
time on it but Proverbs 19 13 a foolish son is ruined to his father and a wife's
31:02
quarreling is a continual dripping of rain so you know if you have a house that
31:09
doesn't have a roof that's properly sealed you can't keep out the rainy weather
31:14
but you could get alternative housing or you get your roof repaired but there's
31:19
no Escape From The Bitter contentious wife Proverbs 21 9 it's better to live in a
31:25
corner of the House Top than in a house shared with a quarrelsome wife
31:31
there's no peace there's no sanctuary in the home this this man has to go to a
31:36
corner of the House Top on the roof of the house to get away from that he's
31:41
going to the furthest point away so that he can get some peace shouldn't be this should not be
31:49
um Proverbs 25 24 it repeats the same same words as 21 nines it's interesting you
31:56
know it's a few chapters later Solomon is repeating that um Proverbs 21 19. it's better to live
32:03
in a desert land than with a quarrelsome and fretful woman so now it's taking it
32:08
to a different level so I get out of the house get off of the roof you got to go out in the desert to get away from this
32:14
constant barrage of reviling and someone that hasn't lived in that kind of a home
32:19
really can't fathom what that's like most men will say well you know every
32:25
husband and wife argue about some things we don't agree on everything I mean you know you don't agree with everything I'm
32:31
assuming you're married you don't agree you're not married okay I'm not sorry but um you know we don't uh we don't
32:37
look at that and say well it's some things that are that are difficult to put up with but
32:43
this is far in a whole separate category the reviling wife is in a way different
32:49
category um look at this picture
32:55
Proverbs 27 15-16 a continual dripping on a rainy day and a quarrelsome wife
33:00
are alike to restrain hers to restrain the wind or to grasp oil in one's right
33:06
hand grasping oil in your hand you know I can change the oil in my cars all the time
33:11
I'm still old school and I do my own oil change like yep you get that oil in your hands it's like I can't grip it I can't
33:17
hold on to it it just it just slips right through so this is again a picture
33:22
of the quarrelsome or contentious or reviling wife
33:28
um Proverbs 12 4 she who brings shame to her husband is like rottenness to his
33:35
bones so now we're talking about the Deep Soul pain that that husband goes through
33:42
these men are just broken they are just destroyed well they have gone through so
33:48
much so rather than peace and contentment she's she's like a piercing scourge
33:55
it's like a living disease in this in this men and it is so sad and again I'm
34:01
not throwing women under the bus I'm looking at this feel for these women that are so bound up in their own misery and their own
34:08
bitterness there's freedom in the gospel there's freedom in Christ there's freedom in what Jesus has done but they
34:16
they they don't see it they don't they don't want to see it in many cases yes and one more and this this passage is
34:22
probably the most descriptive the wisest of women's Proverbs 14 1 the wisest of
34:27
women builds their house but Folly with their own hands tears it down
34:33
if there's one passage that describes it the best I think that's it it's like you know she she could be wise and build her
34:39
house or or she can just be a fool just Folly and tear her house down tear
34:45
everything down tear her family down so you know so just as I mentioned that
34:52
these men will often sacrifice anything and everything for their families they
34:57
don't really care about money they don't care about your reputation they would sacrifice anything for their families
35:04
often what we see in the reviling wife is she'll sacrifice anything for her
35:09
feelings skills therefore that's all that matters
35:15
and as I mentioned in my book feelings are not sovereign feelings don't determine truth feelings are real
35:22
I know she feels the things that she says but that doesn't rule that's not
35:27
the way that we evaluate truth and what's right and what's honorable and what's holy and what's good
35:34
but if your feelings are all that count then you know you're just gonna go
35:40
you're just gonna go on her opinion on on things but what often it doesn't happen the man's feelings don't count
35:46
yeah well I just feel like I'm beaten up I just feel like I can never say
35:52
anything right I feel like I can never lead in my home I feel like you know I I asked my wife
35:58
to do something innocent and she's she's just reviling me and I I don't understand why what am I doing wrong
36:06
it's not that the man is necessarily doing anything wrong some if he is then we we address that we
36:13
want biblical conviction and we call him to repent but if it's not we look at the wife and say we have to hold you
36:20
accountable if we love you we'll hold you accountable
36:26
thank you for all of that um because it's it's all it's all very real and I think I think many men
36:32
listening will relate to this uh one of my friends is a man named Eric Carroll from Dad talk today very popular like
36:39
200 000 followers on Facebook primarily serving divorced ads and one of his
36:46
um one of his big themes that he talks about is Dad deprivation parental alienation and and there's actually a
36:53
phenomenon now where you know parents will get divorced the wife will get
36:58
remarried to another man and tell this other man such horror stories about her
37:04
ex that the man will then go murder the husband and those are starting to happen or she just people are losing lives over
37:11
it and there's a very there's a very moving story about that one one thing I wanted to say is that
37:18
nothing that happened to you in childhood legitimizes your mistreatment of another
37:24
person absolutely ever true it doesn't matter whether you were locked in a
37:31
dungeon and mistreated man or woman that does not give you the right to mistreat
37:36
someone in your future who had nothing to do with it ever ever absolutely no that's I'm glad you
37:44
clarified that because I probably did not but that's it's implied but yeah absolutely true and um
37:52
you know people that have been through these traumatic things there's a real bitterness that's taken roots in their
37:58
hearts yeah Hebrews 12 talks about a root of bitterness and it has to be pulled out and the only thing that can
38:04
pull it out is Jesus the gospel the only thing that can pull that out and they have to embrace it and say okay I was
38:12
wickedly sinned against there's no no question about that is black and white
38:17
you know whether it's locked in a basement or raped or gang raped horrible thing God have mercy on on men
38:24
that have done that to to young women especially um but that woman has got to walk in
38:31
Freedom she does not get an excuse for sin do she does not get the freedom to say well I can treat men this way
38:38
because of how wickedly I was treated no we don't retaliate we bless instead we
38:44
instead of condemning we we bless you know you know we would not that I'm
38:49
saying have contact with the the wicked man that did this right but the innocent man that you're married to now he didn't
38:56
do that but you know will they're blind to that they don't they don't see it
39:02
and it's the same thing that I see with pastors and counselors they're they're blind to these things
39:09
and there's two types of blindness I think at least two different types the one kind of blindness is an innocent
39:15
blindness they don't know any better they don't understand they haven't been taught they haven't been instructed they
39:21
haven't studied the scriptures enough it's kind of an innocent blindness okay okay I just I just don't get it
39:27
but the more frightening one is the prideful blindness yeah people
39:33
have tried to help them people have tried to tell them people have given them biblical information again whether
39:38
this is the wife that's been through the trauma or whether it's the pastor or counselor who is trying to help the
39:45
family there's a lot of pride in counselors and in pastors that keeps
39:53
them from seeing this problem I've talked to them that they don't they
39:58
don't want to see it they go well I'm going to have to admit that I'm wrong then oh and and it's like you know that that's
40:05
what they're saying inside they're not coming right out and saying I don't want to examine all the evidence
40:10
and um you know and the way it begins is
40:16
if you separate the husband and wife in counseling this is the most deadly part I don't even remember if we talked about
40:22
that I know we've talked about what's in the book it's in the book yeah but um separating the husband and wife and the
40:29
counseling in other words just counsel the wife alone and then just counsel the husband alone very deadly very wrong
40:35
absolutely the wrong thing to do and um here's what the scripture says Proverbs
40:42
18 13 if one gives an answer before he hears it's Folly and shame
40:47
so don't give an answer until you hear the whole story until you hear everything that's going on if you think
40:54
you can solve marital Strife but just hearing one side it's not going to go well
40:59
people are innocent until they're proven guilty not guilty until they're proven innocent you know this is this is
41:06
America I mean we still mostly believe that you know we've seen some weaponizing of the justice system
41:12
lately that uh that's the way our country was founded has founded on biblical principles that you have to
41:18
hear the whole story you have to give someone the opportunity to defend themselves um a few verses later Proverbs 18 17 the
41:26
one who states his case first seems right until the other comes and examines him
41:32
so you know I I can't tell you how many counseling situations they sound so
41:38
one-sided until the other spouse tells you the rest of the story you know like Paul Harvey used to say here's the rest
41:44
of the story you know we got to hear the whole side of the story not just hear one aspect of it and make a conclusion
41:52
based on that we've got to hear the whole story so we need the husband and wife together when these um situations
41:59
come up uh Proverbs 20 verse 19 whoever goes about slandering reveals Secrets
42:05
therefore do not associate with a simple babbler or a gossip when you counsel
Avoiding Separate Counseling
42:12
only one person at a time you're encouraging gossip you're encouraging
42:17
them to gossip about the other person and they're gonna you know they're gonna make the other person look bad this is
42:23
why when I counsel people I always request I say please husband and wife I want you both to come together
42:29
so that I can get the whole picture I don't want I don't want you to innocently gossip I don't want you to
42:35
wickedly gossip either I don't want you to you know to say something with your spouse not there
42:40
because it'll give you the wrong impression some people just innocently do that some people do it because they
42:45
want to destroy the other person but um this is this is what happens
42:52
um when we counsel separately and one more verse Proverbs 26 20. for lack of wood the fire goes out and where there
42:59
is no Whisperer quarreling ceases so if if they're both together one party
43:06
cannot tell the secrets of the other person that the other person doesn't want them to hear they they can't do
43:11
this if they're both there together you get the full picture so no so in essence you know the wife says XYZ and the
43:19
husband says well it's real not really the whole story here's the other part of that oh okay that gives me the counselor
43:25
the ability to discern what's going on and say okay not that she's trying to throw him under the bus but if I just
43:32
listen to her I would just assume he's this horrible Wicked Man this is what's happening
43:39
this is exactly what's happening at a lot of these counseling cases I've got many of them I could give stories
43:45
and these men have given me permission permission to tell their stories they won't give you their names but telling their stories that um pastors and
43:52
counselors will talk to the wife and the wife will say something like I don't feel safe like we talked about before
43:59
and the counselor makes up his mind and says boy this this is a terrible situation this man is just this is he's
44:05
a real problem I've had cases where they never talk to the man they don't even ask the man will
44:13
you talk to us they just make the determination they condemn him they're judge jury and
44:18
executioner and it's over it's done now I will say that I when I ask
44:25
husbands and wives please let's both of you counsel together sometimes the wife won't she says no I
44:32
don't want to cancel with you oh wow and I go okay why not well I'm not going
44:37
to any man or any biblical counselor or anything like that yeah so I go okay I'm not going to just leave the man hanging
44:44
up now I'm going to help him but I always ask please husband and wife please both come even if even if I'm
44:52
hearing that it's a reviling wife I still I have to hear her voice and hear
44:57
what she has to say I can't just assume just because the man says she's reviling that she is I have to hear them both
45:05
but if she won't even come for counseling I mean what other conclusion can I draw
45:10
so so that's the sad part and this is what's happening this is
45:16
I was telling somebody the other day it almost reminds me of the Salem witch trials in some ways that the man is the
45:22
scourge he's the wicked one he's condemned he's the evil one he's he's the one you know we don't even have to
45:28
get his testimony and um that's just that's just wicked and evil
45:35
and gossip type of count it's slander as well and it's tearing families apart
45:42
staring children apart from their parents and it's um you know again we get back
45:49
to this has got to be the enemy of our souls that's doing this the accuser of the Brethren that is
45:55
that is behind these things it's it's it's not being done in a corner either
46:00
will this is not well these are just rare very unusual circumstances no it's not
46:08
at all a lot of these men won't talk about it to anybody else because they get shut down
46:15
or because they're so embarrassed it's like it's humiliating to tell somebody what happened with my wife
46:21
it's humiliating to to say this is what my wife is doing and a lot of these men say
46:28
instead of my wife just reviling me non-stop I I wish she would just hit me
46:34
um that's how bad it is and then sadly many of them do I cover
46:40
that in my book too that many many of these women they do resort to physical violence
46:46
and um oh I had a had a story I wanted to
46:52
tell you about with that too um yeah please go ahead
46:57
I don't I have it written down somewhere but I'll just go by go by memory it was a case
47:02
with a man with a reviling wife and she was mad at him about something I
47:09
don't remember what it was but it was something insignificant something very small and so she just came unglued on him and
47:16
started just flailing at him physically hitting him hitting him hitting him over and over and over again
47:24
and um and he grabbed her wrists to keep her from hitting him
47:31
and she she was still she was kicking him she was doing this she was doing that and he and he said
47:38
you crazy and then he used the word that rhymes with which sure I think it's in my book
47:44
and um and so the police were called and you
47:50
know he became an ugly scene and so then the husband and wife are describing the scene so they're
47:56
pastor and their counselor and the pastor hears the story and then
48:02
he says well husband why did you use that word
48:09
you know the husband's like really that's what you're going to focus on
48:14
I mean she was flailing at me she was flailing on him like a wicked demon and
48:20
and all you have to say is why did you use that that bad word with your wife and you know that's that's what happens
48:27
it's like okay the guy is always guilty yeah and you know if that's the case it's like well the man's never going to
48:33
be not even neutral he's never going to win but he's never even going to be neutral
48:39
and as far as I know they never held that wife accountable for what she did to her husband and she was just disagreeing with him
48:45
about something it wasn't something harsh wasn't he wasn't calling her to sin he wasn't you know insisting that
48:51
she do something but uh um she just didn't want to do it and she was so full of Fury
48:58
that she was just flailing on him and he just held her wrists you know just just
49:04
right here not self-defense not choking her not you know nothing like that not getting her not slapping her not kicking
49:10
her and yet the counselor said what use that word for husband wow
49:17
that's what these men are up against and and again these are good pastors I
49:23
mean they're good counselors they they know the Lord they know God's word and that they just push it aside
49:30
and in essence they become bad counselors yeah yeah you know I know a
49:36
lot of these guys I mean the friends of mine I mean I know I know these guys and I go what what's going on no no no you
49:41
don't you don't understand the whole story so well I've talked to both parties I mean what what are you missing here well no you're
49:48
just you're just seeing what you want to see I go no I think it's the other way around you're seeing what you want to
49:54
see brother and um and there's where the pride comes in I'm above reproach I'm the pastor I'm
50:00
the counselor I see everything perfectly and you can't correct the pasture or the counselor then
50:06
so now I mean I've made plenty of blunders and mistakes as a pastor as a counselor
50:12
you know I don't claim to be they have a corner on the market of truth but
50:18
if if it's clear in the word of God that we should be counseling couples
50:24
together why aren't we doing that we're setting the men up
50:30
oh yeah we're abandoning men are abandoned they're they've been abandoned by their pastors
50:36
they've been abandoned by their society they've been abandoned by their fathers and when a woman decides that she's
50:43
gonna take a chunk out of a man with her words with her shame with her vitriol in
50:50
private and in public it happens often too there's no constraints on her at all
50:57
there's no one that can tell her anything and meanwhile TV magazines you
51:03
know the web is like you know you you go girl you're the strong independent hero
51:09
you don't need no man and the movie's reinforce all of this all the heroes
51:15
being shamed by the woman that shows up over and over and over again and there's no and and I can understand being in the
51:22
secular world where there's no constraint on that because they've thrown off God's law but you would think
51:27
that once you can come under the safe hierarchy of a church that a pastor might be able to consult the whole word
51:34
of God and identify a sin for what it is and hold the women accountable but when even the last line of defense won't do
51:41
anything won't speak up and say that's wrong that's sinful we're holding you
51:47
accountable in front of the church body when a pastor won't do that you're leaving men defend for themselves yeah
51:53
and that's love isn't it isn't that love to hold one another accountable absolutely it is I mean you know if if
51:59
you and I are friends and we love each other and we see sin in each other I mean you're going to gently approach you
52:04
would gently approach me or I would approach you and say Hey Brother I don't think this is a good idea you
52:10
know this seems like it's against God's word what do you think and you would hope that you would look at it and say yeah you're you know
52:16
you're right or or that I would look at and say yeah it's what you say is is
52:21
true but this is this is what happens What You Know The Narrative of the reviling
52:28
wife what does she want you know that's the question what does she really want what is what is she
52:34
doing what's what's this all about here's here's what I hear
52:39
and you tell you draw the conclusion you tell me what summarizes all of these things um I want my Independence
52:47
I don't want anybody to tell me what to do I don't need a man to make me happy
52:54
I want to live my own life I don't like the traditional family
53:02
being a mother is not a fulfilling role to me what is that
53:08
feminism it's feminism exactly what it is and yet that's The Narrative of the
53:13
reviling life those are the things she'll you're going to have listeners that are hearing this now and say oh
53:18
yeah I know women like that or maybe a woman that will hear that and say yeah that that is me and and here's my appeal
53:25
to women that are listening right now I don't hate you I don't despise you
53:32
I I want you to humble yourself under God's Mighty hand and listen to the word
53:38
of God and let it work in your soul and change you from being filled with yourself
53:45
to being filled with the presence of God and say it is a Godly thing to submit to
53:52
a man even an imperfect man which every man is I mean me included but this is
53:58
that's all all men in this club raise your hand that's all we're all raising our hands yeah well so
54:04
um this is how you obey and honor God this is how you follow Jesus Christ so
54:13
don't look at this and say I I've got to have my Independence I I don't need a man to be happy now I'm not saying you
54:20
have to be married to be happy but if you are married and you're miserable in your marriage
54:27
get help get new fetic help and meet with the counselor with your spouse so
54:34
that he can help you both and hold you both accountable when I count even when
54:40
I counsel men with reviling wives
54:45
I still hold the man accountable because of his reaction to what she's doing to him so in other words her reviling of
54:52
him does not give him the freedom to revile her back I mean we saw that in
54:58
Jesus right first Peter 2 and he was reviled he did not revile in return so it's like husband you can't revile or in
55:03
return yeah but she's she's doing this no you don't get a pass on this either you have to be a godly man before her
55:11
even in the midst of your trial even in the midst of your suffering that you're going through I know this is hard I know
55:19
this is painful I know it feels hopeless but it's not
55:24
it's not hopeless so so this is one of the things that I urge upon men with um
55:33
understanding what's going on what's God doing
55:38
what does he expect from me and I tell men this and they usually
55:44
don't get it at first but eventually they go I see what you mean now
55:49
this is going to be the most sanctifying time in that man's life what he's going through with the
55:56
reviling wife he's going to grow more through the trials he's enduring then
56:01
through all of the peaceful wonderful happy easy things in his life
56:07
I think we find that in our lives that the deeper and the darker the affliction
56:13
the more readily God can work and change us and that's what happens with these men
56:19
that really pursue the Lord with all their heart they don't just play Church
56:25
they're not just religious they're not just going through the motions they say all right Lord work in me there's things
56:31
about me why is this hurting me so badly well first of all First Peter 1 6 says
56:38
that some of our trials are necessary you know these are necessary if necessary you've been grieved by various
56:45
trials so first of all we look at that say okay this is this is needful I may not want
56:50
it but it's part of God's plan for me and it's not that the man is a bad man
56:57
it's not that he's a man full of sin but he needs these trials to be the school
57:02
in which God teaches him so what are some of the things that God teaches him one of the things he teaches
57:08
is compassion patience the King James translates the word
57:14
patience as long suffering makes it a very Vivid picture doesn't it long you have to be willing to suffer a long time
57:21
that's what a patient man looks like in Colossians 3 12 says to put this on
57:27
put on patience put on compassion put on meekness put on these things you have to
57:35
desire to become that kind of man through what you are enduring it'll make
57:40
you a better man the suffering is hard and painful and and it is very very much debilitating at
57:49
times that it will refine you it will sanctify you it will change you this is
57:55
what God is doing in that um a man will learn a lot about forgiveness
58:01
Matthew 6 verses 14 and 15 says for if you forgive the sins of others then
58:08
you'll be forgiven but if you don't forgive then you're not forgiven so forgiveness is not a peripheral idea in
58:16
Scripture it is Central and the only part in The Lord's Prayer which is Matthew 6 9 through 13.
58:23
the only part of that prayer that is repeated is in verses 14 and 15. the two verses
58:30
right after it are about forgiving forgiving one another this is what's the
58:36
hardest part for us to do is to forgive but it's also the most freeing and the
58:42
Beautiful and the proof of the work of God in your heart you are forgiving man that that's evidence that you are born
58:49
again you're not forgiving it's evidence you're not born again you say I can't
58:54
forgive I can never let that go that's giving the impression that well there's no hope for me I can't uh you
59:02
know I I there's there's no way that I could ever forgive my wife or what she did so same thing works for the wife
59:07
towards the husband too whatever she's holding against him she has to forgive him but again this is
59:13
a sanctifying thing this is what God is doing this is what God is sowing in the man's heart through all of his
59:19
afflictions and trials the man's going to learn about anger and bitterness and repentance from that
59:27
um Ephesians 4 31 talks about that Hebrews 12 15 we alluded to that before
59:33
about put it all away anger wrath slander bitterness let put it all away
59:39
from you we've got to get get that out of our Lives because it's not going to be constructive there is a place for
59:45
righteous anger but often I think what we do is we we justify our anger by saying well it's
59:51
righteous so therefore it's okay it's like be very very careful with that the
59:56
word of God calls us to repent from anger it's very destructive it can really harm
1:00:02
it can do some good with men that say I care about Justice I care about
1:00:08
righteousness okay good but be careful don't stay in that anger very long because it will destroy you it'll
1:00:15
destroy your witness your testimony and everything else but um
1:00:21
a man's going to learn boy why did I get so angry at what she said to me what she did to me
1:00:27
this is another another sanctifying time for that man um
1:00:34
learning how to Lament we don't talk very much about that either
1:00:39
Sorrows lamentation we've got a whole book in the Bible called the Lamentations right Jeremiah wrote it
1:00:46
and you see you know Jeremiah just as hard as Rift I mean he's called the weeping prophet well why he's lamenting
1:00:53
over the sins of his people and over the consequences of those sins upon an
1:00:58
entire nation and if you look at Lamentations chapter three it's really interesting
1:01:05
because he says you did this God you did this you did this you did no God did
1:01:11
these things like okay what does he mean by that and at the end of Lamentations three he's he's talking about learning
1:01:17
to wait on God so it's designed to draw the man to the Lord lamenting towards
1:01:24
God not lamenting in self-pity not lamenting in in feeling sorry for
1:01:30
yourself woe is me but lamenting in a sense of the loss that I have and I'm
1:01:35
waiting on God to restore and to bless and to change me and to soften my heart
1:01:43
sometimes that takes a long time but that's what's going on well I wanna I wanna jump in here and I say what about
1:01:50
her so I understand that we're being that a man can be put through this trial and
Supprting Reviled Men
1:01:56
let's say she's doing everything short of physical violence she's not standing over the bed with a knife right but the
1:02:02
the and let's say that it's a the couple doesn't have kids that's all because that's a whole other complex but she's
1:02:09
verbally abusive rebellious actively on a daily basis shaming and
1:02:15
public and in private gossiping about her husband even ruining his professional opportunities with her
1:02:21
loose mouth like she's doing everything she can to persecute her husband there's part of me that says yes absolutely to
1:02:30
everything that you're saying sanctification for real but there's another part of me that's like we can't
1:02:35
just leave this man to die in this dungeon for a woman who has no intention
1:02:41
to ever repent and who actually just wants to punish him out of the pure
1:02:46
Wicked bitterness of her heart is there no no and there's no hope for this man
1:02:51
do we just I mean I obviously the Lord is with him and and yes and but there is
1:02:57
a component of like the Lord helps those who help themselves can he leave can he
1:03:03
just say you know what I've had it I'm gonna I'm gonna move out we made a marriage covenant I get that not going
1:03:09
to get a divorce right but I'm gone like you don't get to pretend that you're in a relationship anymore I'm not going to
1:03:15
allow myself to be subject to this anymore at what point at what point can
1:03:20
a man simply say that you know I've had enough dialogue pardon my language but I don't know how else to say it yeah no
1:03:28
it's it's it's a it's a great question it's a great point
1:03:33
and it shows the compassion for the man yeah to even ask that question
1:03:38
because I know you're not asking it in the sense of saying I want this man to have an easy way out
1:03:44
no you know because that's not what we want and sometimes
1:03:50
the um the trials the afflictions that's God's
1:03:56
goal with the man so that he learns and grows and changes it's not
1:04:02
not about the marriage it's about him think of the Book of Job for instance
1:04:07
here we have job that he loses his children he loses his health
1:04:14
he loses the love of his wife and then even his friends turn against
1:04:20
him yeah it loses his kids yeah so he's he's got everything and he's lost his business too he's all of
1:04:26
his livestock's gone I mean he he's lost everything literally and then not only does he lose his
1:04:33
friends but he calls them worthless Physicians miserable comforters
1:04:41
and you go through the whole book of job and you're just waiting you're waiting for the answer okay God why why why
1:04:50
and you never get the answer do you because if you get the answer and say well this is why God did it then you
1:04:57
would say well that was that was the reason that's the purpose of all of this
1:05:02
but I think because it's left unexplained it's left unsaid why God did this
1:05:08
it's telling us what the answer is it's telling us that this is for the man to draw near to the
1:05:15
Lord and find that peace in his soul that only God can bring because nothing
1:05:20
in the world is going to bring it not his wife not his children that he's lost
1:05:27
not his three friends who are sadly
1:05:32
um you know erstwhile friends you know their former friends really they really are not acting like friends at all
1:05:39
he's um he's lost everything except for one thing
1:05:44
he's he's not lost his relationship with God and he is changed and grown and
1:05:50
Sanctified through that and so by the end of the books chapter 42 you see God rebuking the men
1:05:59
and saying job's going to pray for you because job has done what is right
1:06:05
and so you see that you know the men that I've talked to I urge them read the book of job again with new eyes with
1:06:11
fresh eyes and see see what God is doing
1:06:16
um he's trying to refine you he's trying to change you
1:06:22
and not that you're a bad man not that you're an evil man
1:06:27
but he wants you to be a better man he wants to be a better father a better husband a better leader now
1:06:33
I know I haven't totally answered your question it's like David you're still avoiding my questions like well
1:06:40
I don't understand I'm not really avoiding it I I don't want any men out there
1:06:45
to look at this and say well I've got justification to leave my marriage because of what
1:06:52
David and will talked about on the podcast I don't want men to have right that kind of a thought in their mind
1:06:59
because I think every case has to be looked at individually and examined and these men need help
1:07:07
they need somebody to come alongside of them not to condemn them but to talk with them and say okay let's
1:07:14
let's address this let's address that let's address your sin husband let's address the things that that you are
1:07:20
doing wrong not things that are causing your life to be this way but let's let's address those things let's not just run
1:07:27
away and get out of this marriage but you know it's easy for you and me to say that it's like I'm not in that marriage so let's let's
1:07:33
does hold on you know it's easy for us to say that but I don't want to make it easy for the
1:07:39
man to say I've got full justification to get out of this marriage too right that's too
1:07:45
much that's what a lot of men will do that are that are listening to this and I don't I don't want that I mean I hold I hold marriage in very very high regard
1:07:53
and yet I do no I do know that many of these men that
1:07:58
have counseled they lost their marriages and yet very few of the men
1:08:05
filed for divorce there's a few of them but very few of them did It's usually
1:08:10
the wife that does even though she's the guilty one even though she's the one doing the reviling
1:08:17
and the bitter controlling angry Wicked one what I do instead will is I encourage
1:08:25
the men to lovingly and kindly fear God rather than they
1:08:31
fear their wives stand and Lead don't back down
1:08:37
don't be mean about it don't be cruel don't be just yelling at your wife and saying you've got to submit to me woman
1:08:42
you know not any of that kind of nonsense but just lead be the man that God calls
1:08:49
you to be and now if the wife leaves you go well I've done what God wants me to do yes
1:08:55
I'm eating in a way that's oppressive I'm not ruling over my wife in a harsh way
1:09:01
but I'm kind of I'm putting everything forward so that okay
1:09:07
wife I I have led you in the wrong way I've been too passive
1:09:14
I have equivocated I've abdicated I have been complicit in things
1:09:20
and I've compromised I can't do that anymore because I have to fear God more than I fear you so I'm
1:09:26
gonna start making some changes and some things that are going to be different now I want you
1:09:33
to join me in let's glorify and honor God together
1:09:40
have a conversation something like that with your reviling wife now she may just blow up and say you know you're just a
1:09:46
toxic man and you know all that stuff or maybe she'll hear it and listen and say okay
1:09:55
okay I'll follow you yes rare rare but I have seen it I have seen it happen
1:10:02
but if she leaves now then the man can say look I've done everything I can
1:10:08
amen I have been the man that God calls me to be and if she leaves so be it
1:10:14
most of these men even after their wives divorce them and leave them they still love their wives they still oh I wish
1:10:21
you would recognize I wish you would come back I wish you know and sadly eventually there has to come a
1:10:28
point where the man has to say I just have to let her go not out of hatred not out of an abandonment but she doesn't
1:10:34
want to be under my authority and under my protection she's made that clear
1:10:40
she's on her own now yeah so I haven't directly answered your
1:10:46
question no you did that's what I'm that's the way I I try to help men because I
1:10:51
I don't want this to be a get out of jail free card same and yet
1:10:57
I just grieve for what these men are going through I just go oh this is so so
1:11:03
painful so lonely so hard and very few people understand what
1:11:09
they're enduring very very few you know I've had contact from
1:11:16
maybe two or three pastors and counselors around the nation
1:11:22
that have contacted me and said wow I like what you've said on your podcast
1:11:28
hopefully there'll be more with the podcast yeah but you know two or three
1:11:35
out of the thousands that have heard this and I go what's wrong with this picture am I a
1:11:41
bad guy are you a bad guy I mean are we just scratching where nobody's itching it's
1:11:46
like oh no we're scratching right we're men are riching and they're like man I need help here please please help me
1:11:54
I got a call this morning from a guy in Canada from British Columbia Canada that heard one of the podcasts and I go okay
1:12:02
what's what's going on with with you same story same exact thing it's it's almost like
1:12:09
it's a textbook case the men that read my book
1:12:14
that here one of these podcasts I've done they tell me the same thing they say
1:12:19
it's like you had a um a recorder and you are taping what's
1:12:27
going on in my house the conversation the way things play out
1:12:33
what I say what my wife says how do you know this so well
1:12:39
and I go I think I'm just faithful to God's word I'm just trusting what God says I'm nothing special
1:12:46
if nothing I'm not brave or courageous I'm just saying I have to stand where God's word stands and and I've seen this
1:12:54
so many times now that it's almost predictable
1:13:01
so um I'll make that available to people as
1:13:06
well it's kind of a dangerous thing to do this but any man or woman is listening to this podcast with you
1:13:13
you're free to contact me compassionate counselors is the ministry compassionatecounselors.com is our
1:13:19
website um my email address is Council the word at
1:13:26
pm.me so PM as in protonmail.me and uh
1:13:33
I'll even give you my phone number 602-384-4417
1:13:41
I edit out the phone number just in case that's up to you I'll let you I'll let you decide on that but I just want to
1:13:48
help I just want to help these families and I want to help these men because they need they they need this
1:13:53
help it's not it's not going away it's getting worse yes
1:13:59
and uh we need pastors to be leading the way in this we need new fetic biblical
1:14:06
counselors leading on this not figuring it out 10 years later
1:14:11
but leading the way on this because we're hurting people or we're
Calling Attention to the Problem
1:14:18
we're not only allowing people to get hurt but we are hurting them as well
1:14:24
we can't uh we can't just ignore that we can't just put that aside
1:14:30
men especially are being hurt absolutely men women are women have free reign and
1:14:36
license to harm men when when a man comes to me and says he's lucky for a church by the way there's like a thousand different tangents that that we
1:14:43
could that we could go on you know I always tell him when you go and meet with the pastor if you're considering
1:14:50
joining a church you have to ask the pastor three questions and that will tell you where the church is really at
1:14:55
question number one do women sin question number two do women sin against
1:15:03
men question number three are you capable of holding women accountable for sin
1:15:10
if he hesitates on even one of those questions leave
1:15:15
leave because you will be you will be abandoned now like you can get a sense
1:15:20
of you can like he may hesitate or answer like he answered correctly like you'll feel it out in the moment like
1:15:26
it's like oh you you know you you took a breath and I'm out you know so obviously you know use discernment with it but
1:15:32
there are far too many pastors that will that will answer no to one of those questions yes women sin yes women sin
1:15:38
against men no I'm not capable of holding women accountable for sin leave more willing to or willing to yeah able
1:15:44
and willing yeah because because otherwise you have men that again will feel like they've been
1:15:51
abandoned that they'll be held accountable for things that are not their fault that their wives will have
1:15:57
weapons free against their husbands and especially their children and this is something that I tend that I talk a lot
1:16:03
about on Instagram with some female content creators you know who are talking about motherhood like this we're
1:16:10
surviving of of their husbands it also goes down to their sons in many cases as
1:16:16
well yes and daughters in a different way but I mean maybe you can talk a little bit about the impact of the
1:16:22
reviling light of the reviling wife on her sons yeah it's on Sons and on
1:16:29
daughters yeah that's the revivaling wife has daughters
1:16:34
that are if not intentionally and deliberately trained in being reviling there by by
1:16:41
example they're being trained how to be a reviling wife when they grow up and
1:16:47
when they marry a man so it's deadly from that perspective because they have
1:16:52
an in inbred contempt for men because their mother does
1:16:57
and it's like I'm not going to trust any man I'm not going to entrust myself to any man I'm not going to follow any man
1:17:04
I Am Woman hear me roar you know I I'm strong and I can do whatever I want and and so
1:17:10
it's deadly for young girls that are growing up in that home but you mentioned for boys too same thing with
1:17:17
boys that they see their father Just Whipped verbally and and
1:17:23
demoralized and emasculated and if the man does not stand up and say
1:17:30
you know this is not going to keep going on we can't keep having this if he just abdicates again that young boy is going
1:17:36
to be that same kind of a young man and now we've got the problem just going down spiraling generation after
1:17:43
generation after generation and eventually someone has to stand and say look what do the scriptures say yeah
1:17:51
what does the word of God teach that's the kind of man I have to be but it is
1:17:56
very hard you know it's hard to be a leader when you don't have anyone that wants to
1:18:02
follow you isn't it yes yes you know I was like okay I'm the leader of my home I'm the head of our
1:18:08
home but the wife says I'm not following you and the wife says kids don't follow him because he's a bad man
1:18:15
it's very hard for that man to lead in his home but lead he must he must still stand and say
1:18:22
with gentleness with kindness with compassion but still be firm in his faith and say
1:18:30
I'm I'm not going to give in on this I'm not going to abdicate my role
1:18:36
so you're absolutely right it's it's like the curse that goes on generation to generation of those that hate God
1:18:43
and I'll say that as well that I probably implied it earlier
1:18:49
but these reviling wives are more than likely not born again
1:18:54
I was going to ask yeah I feel the same because there's no repentance there's no
1:19:00
sorrow there's no ownership of their sin I talked to a man yesterday that his
1:19:07
wife had just filed for divorce and she was a reviling wife I had
1:19:13
met with the two of them so I knew the situation and the man asked her
1:19:21
what part did you play in this the destruction of our marriage what part did you play in this wife
1:19:28
and she said it was 100 his fault 100 percent
1:19:33
and not only is that wrong it's the opposite of reality it's almost 100 his fault her fault
1:19:40
you know the man had some culpability in it but but nothing that would have ended the marriage nothing at
1:19:47
all and so there's that we get back to that blindness again and again it's a
1:19:53
prideful blindness it's not an innocent blindness that I just don't know any better it's a I'm digging my heels in
1:19:58
and I'm blind to the truth I'm blind to the reality that I sin just like anybody
1:20:05
else does I don't see how that person could be born again I really I really don't yeah
1:20:13
I've struggled with I've struggled with that as well you know because this is something that I'm that I mentor and counsel men through that I see very
1:20:20
often as um you know maybe they're they're the sons of reviling mothers their mothers taught them what to expect
1:20:26
from women they get into relationships with women who mirror that relationship with their mother it's a common human
1:20:32
thing that we do and then at some point the men wake up because they read a book or they encounter content and and we
1:20:38
start talking and start taking the pieces apart and it's like yeah okay I see that you're in a relationship with
1:20:44
you have a reviling wife to varying degrees and um and then they'll say but you know
1:20:50
we're in a Christian marriage it's like oh well or like you know my wife led me to Christ you know I was like and and
1:20:57
it's a very it can be very difficult to work through that I've been married for 20 years I became Christian because of her we had Christian vows and now 20
1:21:05
years on she's fully in Rebellion like hates God hates the Bible hates
1:21:11
everything and it's like I don't know was she was she ever a Christian to begin with these are no you know exactly
1:21:17
yeah no I've had the same thing I've had men that say you know my wife helped me she she got books by John McArthur and
1:21:23
John Piper and wow and this and that and and you know it really helped me as a
1:21:28
husband and a man and now she doesn't believe any of that stuff she just throws it all away and I go wow
1:21:34
really you know good you know good solid I mean all those guys are good solid guys I mean we don't agree with anything
1:21:40
they say but I go dad love to have a friendship with any of those guys and yet it's like no
1:21:46
so but we we know that knowledge puffs up knowledge is not enough it has to be
1:21:53
working in the heart doesn't it has to be changing your heart that's what the gospel does it changes and transforms
1:21:59
the heart where there's character that's developed and it's only developed by the spirit of God and what's the fruit of
1:22:05
the spirit love joy peace gentleness faithful self-control you know that that's what we look for and when we see
1:22:12
that we go that's the spirit of God working but then you look at the works of the
1:22:18
flesh we're in Galatians 5. you look at the works of the flesh what are they there's there's anger there's there's
1:22:24
all these forms there's like eight forms of anger that are mentioned there as works of the Flesh and it's like
1:22:31
that's what I see in my wife I see a lot of different forms of anger
1:22:36
but I don't see love joy peace faithfulness gentleness self-con
1:22:43
self-control I don't see that what's what's missing well don't become the judge of your wife
1:22:49
but evaluate and say boy I want to make sure those things are being built in my heart that's the fruit
1:22:55
that's the work of the spirit of God in my heart so
1:23:01
yeah the other thing I want to mention too that please um
1:23:06
when men go through this and they don't they don't get any help from their
1:23:13
Church now it goes into the secular courts
1:23:20
and now you got to play by the world's rules and the men lose yeah you played by the
1:23:26
secular court rules that the man the man loses you know years and years of child
1:23:33
support or what's called a divorce tax where you know he has to pay spousal support to his wife and and um
1:23:41
uh the church should be stepping in and saying we don't want you to go to the
1:23:47
courts we want to help you as the local church we want to Shepherd and Pastor
1:23:53
you your family and help you we're not the pastor of your family the
1:23:59
husband is the head in his home not the pastor of the family um
1:24:04
but we should be coming alongside and helping you not making it so that you have to go to the secular authorities to
1:24:11
get get resolution on this because you're not going to get resolution you go to the secular courts he's going to be a
1:24:17
train wreck and a disaster and it's got to be crazy expensive and it's going to destroy your family even more you know I
1:24:24
mean there's all kinds of things that are going to happen here so I I wish churches would take this more
1:24:31
to heart and say we have to help these men and if if there's a pastor or a
1:24:37
counselor listening to this podcast and a man comes to you Pastor or counselor
1:24:43
and he says some of these things about a reviling wife please don't dismiss him please don't
1:24:50
just say well he's obviously just a a toxic man he's obviously just a bad man
1:24:56
you know please listen to him and investigate it check it out he could be
1:25:01
deceiving you but he's probably not that's it now investigate it
1:25:09
I wanted to talk quickly if we can about some of the larger
1:25:15
societal issues that this ties to so obviously the family court system being
1:25:20
completely captured and twisted and being very anti-husband anti-father by
1:25:26
default it's like well we just default assume that the man is in the wrong and
1:25:31
we're going to take the kids from him and half of his income and we're not even going to investigate it that's just the presumption right but there's this
1:25:38
is showing up you know this General abdication to hold women accountable seems to be showing up society-wide and
1:25:45
as we were talking before we started recording it's it's widespread and these
1:25:51
are not coincidences that all these things are happening like there's something there's something larger going on and it's not just about the political
1:25:57
movement of feminism right exactly yeah no it's it's not you know politics is not the problem
1:26:04
politics is just you know kicking the can down the road um the the problem is that we don't we
1:26:10
don't have a Biblical view of anthropology we don't have a Biblical view of progressive sanctification
1:26:16
we don't have a Biblical view of christology of hamartiology of all of these things you know the study of study
1:26:23
of man the study of sin the study of sanctification you know we miss all of those things in the
1:26:28
church and it and it goes out into the society and even more to the point what the
1:26:35
society says gets into the church and it corrupts the church and then it goes back out into the society again and it
1:26:41
makes things worse so you know like we talked about a little bit in the beginning was the the
1:26:46
whole um Wok ideology is is a massive massive problem in the church
1:26:53
and I've had I've had pastors that I've talked to about that and they say oh I don't
1:26:58
believe in that stuff and I say brother you do you really do you don't you don't see it
1:27:04
well I don't embrace you know communism and Marxism and all that stuff well maybe not to that degree
1:27:10
but you're buying into it right here because you're automatically just kind of assuming
1:27:15
that you get the whole picture and and you don't so brother please please listen please
1:27:21
hear please hear what God has to say and um
1:27:27
so it's that it's that tension between gentle and compassionate
1:27:32
and being bold and forthright and say you know we have to be bold about this
1:27:37
we have to we have to be courageous and say we we have to say what is true and
1:27:43
right even if our culture opposes it because now we get back to fearing God rather than fearing man rather than
1:27:50
fearing the state rather than fearing what um a reviling wife might say or a church
1:27:57
might assume about you because you're just defending yourself
1:28:04
another thing um don't agree with a lie
1:28:11
so in other words if a man says well my wife is accusing me of this
1:28:16
and if I don't go along with her she's going to get really mad at me
1:28:24
don't just go along with her to keep peace yeah because all it is is a ceasefire it's not peace yeah you know
1:28:32
we have a ceasefire with China right now don't we but we don't have peace with
1:28:37
China okay nobody's killing each other at least overtly but would anybody say well
1:28:44
we have peace with China it's like well no we're just waiting for the next thing to come
1:28:50
same thing in the reviling wife in the marriage you can't just make peace your ultimate
1:28:56
goal you have to glorify God in your marriage you have to lead in your family you have
1:29:02
to honor the Lord Jesus Christ in what you do that's what you're called to you know
1:29:08
we're supposed to love the Lord Our God with all our heart our soul our mind and our strength that's the greatest commandment
1:29:15
and if we don't love truth enough to stand on the truth then we really don't love God with all our heart do we
1:29:22
or with all our mind yeah so you know the church should be
1:29:28
leading the culture on this and yet as we've seen for decades now the church follows the culture on this
1:29:36
and then we see these political things going on we're like why is that happening well our churches are not
1:29:43
honoring our churches are not faithful to God's word and um
1:29:50
and yet I know many great pastors good Brothers I've been here in the valley for 30 years and I've got a lot of good
1:29:56
friends that that love the Lord and love his word but I've also seen a number of them
1:30:03
lately in the past four or five years they've just abdicated yeah and just
1:30:10
kind of gone along with the culture in the world and I go
1:30:15
don't you understand that the world the Biblical term World means a society
1:30:21
and Rebellion against God why would you follow that is that what that is that an
1:30:26
actual that's an actual biblical term yeah the term world you look at it in first John and the Gospel of John you
The Meaning of "World"
1:30:32
know don't love the world or the things of the world what's he talking about he's not talking about the planet
1:30:37
he's not just talking about the people he's talking about the whole society that's in Rebellion against God that
1:30:43
doesn't want to follow God Hmm this is why we see all the
1:30:48
the gender confusion things yeah I was going to use the word transgender but it's not a real legitimate word it's not
1:30:55
a make-believe word it's good yeah it's a good point or like gay marriage that's not a it's not a real thing either not a
1:31:01
thing it's a make-believe world word but um you know we have to stand on
1:31:07
truth and we can stand on that with love we don't have to mock people we don't have to ridicule people we say no this
1:31:14
is what God says well who are you to say What God Says he wrote a book you know I got a I got a
1:31:20
book with 66 books in it that tells me what God says you know yeah and the author of that book says I'm the way and
1:31:26
the truth and the life no man comes to the father but by me I didn't make that up he said it not me
1:31:35
so but that's the way of Peace and Freedom Joy all the things that people want all
1:31:41
the things that people are craving and desire it comes through the good news it comes through the gospel it comes
1:31:47
through God working in the hearts of man and forgiving sin and becoming their
1:31:53
Lord he's their King and he will he will take care of everything in their life
1:32:00
so um I I think we have to we have to have
1:32:07
that that boldness and that courage will I mean I think that's what's really necessary but we have to have the
1:32:14
word of God as the authority the scriptures have to be the authority
1:32:19
um you know second Timothy 3 16 and 17 all scripture is breathed out
1:32:25
by God so all of it's breathed out by God and profitable for teaching for reproof for correction and training and
1:32:33
righteousness that the men of God may be complete and equipped for every good
1:32:39
work do we believe that we really believe that is breathed out by God and here's what
1:32:47
it does it does all these things we can't just add psychology to that or
1:32:53
Psychotherapy and say well we're going to come out with something better it's like no you're going to dilute what the word of God says you're gonna
1:32:59
you're gonna compromise on what the word of God says so we stand
1:33:04
boldly with that like Martin Luther here I stand I could do no other
1:33:10
God help me that that's where we have to be I think a lot of men
1:33:17
need first need to hear that message and but I think ultimately the bottom of many many Christian men uh would rather
1:33:25
listen to the word of woman rather than the word of the lord they're not they're
1:33:30
simply not strong enough constitutionally at the moment with spine and heart to really stand in the
1:33:36
word of the Lord and say no this is this is how it is this is how it is and if you think
1:33:43
proverbs 31 3 do not give your strength to women yeah it doesn't say to a woman it says
1:33:51
don't give your strength to women you know we're letting women lead and
1:33:56
they should not be leading and we're afraid we're afraid afraid to take the leadership Reigns from them
1:34:02
we're afraid to even say that to breathe that to them like you're not supposed to be leading I got a book that says it
1:34:09
right here we know because they can't stand up yeah
1:34:15
don't we can't fear we can't uh we can't back down we lovingly lead we
1:34:22
graciously lead we we say no this is what God says this is what we have to do
1:34:29
now a uh a woman with a good heart is going to
1:34:34
say boy great I'm protected yes that's what I want I want a man like
1:34:40
that but if a woman is listening to that and she hears this man is Harsh he's wicked he's cruel
1:34:48
he's domineering he's oppressed you're not hearing it you're not hearing it right because there are there's good men
1:34:54
like that out there I could introduce you to dozens of them I know a lot of these guys you know and
1:35:01
I'm sure you're one of them will from what I no views like yep I know plenty of men like that and um
1:35:08
uh but women think they're going to be happy by ruling and they're not
1:35:15
they're going to find that it's it's going to destroy him so it can destroy society as well
1:35:22
absolutely you see it around us destroy them destroy families destroy churches destroy Society it's it is
1:35:31
destructive sadly it's destructive do you have time for one or two more questions I know we're we're deep into
1:35:37
it at the moment yeah a couple more go ahead yeah okay so there was something that you brought up a while back that is
1:35:44
so important to the book and I want people to understand it because it's such a powerful phrase I wonder if you
1:35:49
can unpack your feelings are not sovereign because we live in an age that worships
1:35:55
feelings and certainly and certainly women are in many ways led by their feeling and their intuition which is one
1:36:00
of the reasons why we love them but there can also be a point at which the feeling is the one that takes control
1:36:07
so you and you did a great job with that in the books I wonder if you could talk about that idea
1:36:12
yeah the feelings are sovereign idea is that um a woman feels something and therefore in
1:36:21
her mind it's absolutely true and and you know and I mean on the surface you look at that you say well
1:36:27
that's kind of silly nobody does that do they go oh yeah they do yeah I've seen women that that say that uh
1:36:34
well you you have um uh
1:36:40
you have this idea that you are supposed to lead me and I feel like that is
1:36:46
oppressive I feel like that is Harsh I feel like this is
1:36:53
um not giving me freedom and the man will say well I'm really not trying to do
1:36:58
that um as I'm just remembering an example from
1:37:04
counseling from years ago where I literally had the husband and wife in my office
1:37:10
good and they're good friends today this is an example of a wife that's repentant about Corey violent so it's a good story
1:37:18
um but at the at the time I'm like this is just crazy what's going on so the husband and wife are talking and the
1:37:24
husband is describing something he's describing a situation he's very calm he's very gentle
1:37:30
he's not harsh or anything and the wife turns to him
1:37:35
and she says you're you're just a phony you're a fake
1:37:41
you're a fraud I feel like you are just you're just making the stuff up and you're not really like that and and you
1:37:48
know she's just accusing of all of these things because she felt that he was being fake and the husband turns to her
1:37:55
and says what what are you talking about what do you what do you mean and she says no you're really angry
1:38:01
right now you're saying things in a soft and gentle way but you're really angry right now
1:38:07
he's like no I'm just saying things very gently and you know and I know it's comical Now you listen to it now I'm
1:38:13
just watching this unfold in my office and I'm like what what is going on here every man's been through this yeah so I
1:38:19
stopped the conversation I said okay wife um he's gentle right yeah he's gentle
1:38:25
he's very soft-spoken yep he is and you know I just run through what I was seeing with the man
1:38:31
and I said but you see him as being angry when he's doing that yeah absolutely I know he's I know him so
1:38:38
well I know his heart I said oh wait a minute wait a minute you're assuming something about him
1:38:45
that's absolutely the opposite of that if he was harsh and banging his hand on the table and jabbing his finger in your
1:38:52
face and doing then I'd say okay he probably is Harsh and angry and mean right now but that's not the case he's
1:38:59
the opposite of that why would you judge his heart so harshly well it's because that's what I feel but I feel that way
1:39:07
so she didn't say the words but my feelings are sovereign and and so in this case
1:39:14
it just took a lot of time with her and kind of walked her through that and she she eventually saw that she was
1:39:21
being quite foolish and judgmental she repented and changed
1:39:26
but uh that's an example you know my feelings are all that matters and the
1:39:32
husband is quiet and he's soft and he's gentle well you're prideful well you're being angry right now you're
1:39:39
you're really angry even though you're using gentle words like what why what do you mean by that well I feel that's what
1:39:46
you're doing I go you can't just operate by feelings because feelings are deceptive
1:39:52
and feelings I I mean some of this comes from the enemy that you know okay attack
1:39:57
your husband now go after him because he's being a phony and a fraud and
1:40:03
um you know you you you can't just make that kind of a judgment it's irrational it's illogical it's it's cruel it's
1:40:11
vindictive so your feelings are not sovereign your feelings don't determine truth I mean
1:40:16
truth is is what's a fact so so that's an example of that where often wives
1:40:24
they're very feelings driven often they feel things and therefore they
1:40:30
assume it to be true and um you know just have to gently be
1:40:35
urged let's step back a second let's kind of think this through let's let God's word renew and change our minds
1:40:43
here because I don't think you're seeing this right so that's an example of the feelings are
1:40:50
sovereign I know I go into a lot more depth in my book on that but um I would encourage your readers to get a copy of
1:40:56
my book I don't get a lot of royalties out of this so it's not like making a bunch of money off of this but yeah
1:41:02
it'll help men and women in in a variety of ways to um to really
1:41:08
see what's going on yeah to make to make feelings your your highest Authority when feelings are are
1:41:15
subject to facts and also to the word of God that's the Sovereign Authority in
1:41:20
the room right now exactly and so I think that the last thing I want to ask is what has it been like for you in the
1:41:28
eight years since you wrote the book because I mean it was a it's a big deal to step out on these topics today and
1:41:34
you were out front on them eight years ago and as you've written the book you've watched the societal condition get worse around these very issues and
1:41:42
meanwhile again like a voice crying out in the wilderness you've been talking about this on on the front lines in a way I haven't found anyone else really
1:41:49
talking about so what's it been like for you to get to this point and what's happening for you now
1:41:55
well it's it's been a very slow thing really that um I've had men
1:42:02
over the years over the eight years since the book that have contacted me and they they always find me and they
1:42:08
say okay we want to talk with you but until about
1:42:13
a few months ago it's really been kind of quiet not really a lot of attention not really a lot of
1:42:20
um uh people that are interested to talk about it
1:42:25
until the last few months and now it's like wow it's just off the charts it's a whole it's a whole other ministry that's
1:42:31
developing now because of this yeah I've got a group of men that were
1:42:37
were strategizing and praying God what what can we do what what do we do because there's a lot of men out there
1:42:43
that that need this help and they're coming out of the woodwork and
1:42:48
um I mean literally I'm sure after this podcast I'm going to get flooded with more emails and phone calls too I hope
1:42:54
so and you know and part of me goes oh no but also part of me goes good
1:43:01
you know what I say to the men that join our online group I said I'm sorry that you're here but we're glad to help you
1:43:07
that's kind of been our motto I'm really sorry that you're here because I know what you're going through
1:43:12
but I'm glad we can help you and um we haven't gotten too much opposition
1:43:19
yet I know it's coming I know it will come eventually
1:43:25
probably because nobody knows who I am you know but I keep doing podcasts people are going to know who I am and
1:43:30
it's like okay now I am going to get you know attacks and things like that but again ultimately we go we have to
1:43:38
honor God we have to say Lord what do you want to do how can we be a part of
1:43:44
advancing your kingdom not my kingdom but yours um I'm not getting rich off of this I'm
1:43:51
not getting Financial um blessings off of this it's it's simply
1:43:58
to say let's be faithful to the word of God and that's all that I want I just
1:44:05
want the church to be honoring and glorifying the Lord and helping these
1:44:12
suffering men so um so it's been good it's it's been good
1:44:17
to see so many men getting getting help but I need help
1:44:22
with this too well I can't do it myself yeah that's why I'm glad to have these men
1:44:30
that I've been working with some of these men I've been working with them for several years and they're really
1:44:35
growing and changing in wonderful ways some of the men are new on this journey it's like man they're right in the
1:44:41
middle of it right now like some of the men that we've that you and I know and um so every man's in a different
1:44:48
different situation different place these are young men they're men in their 20s and 30s these are older men men in
1:44:55
their 60s and 70s it's not any one segment of society some of these are
1:45:01
very wealthy men some of these are men that can barely pay their bills it's not that there's nothing that's
1:45:08
common in this except that they're the gentle kind compassionate
1:45:14
sweet men not not wimpy men but men that
1:45:19
are um they're willing to go along they're not men that are insisting on
1:45:26
their way but eventually with the reviling wife you know it becomes why do you keep
1:45:34
dictating to me wife why do you think that that's your role to just insist on
1:45:40
things being your way so we get right back to Genesis 3 16 again
1:45:45
her desire is contrary to the husband so yeah God's curses are legit they are
1:45:52
yeah well thank you so much thank you so much this has been wonderful conversation and
1:45:59
I I sincerely hope and pray that this blesses many men and women listening and that they pick up your book I'll link it
1:46:05
in in the show notes and and uh be talking about it as well in the introduction you've already so
1:46:10
graciously provided your email address and phone number and website I don't know if there's other places you want to
1:46:16
send men if you have a YouTube channel or social media or anything like that or how people can donate to support your
1:46:22
ministry how would you how would you like people to be able to to support you and help you today
1:46:27
yes you know I'm I'm not really into social media very much at all yeah but
1:46:33
um you know which is probably a good thing in some ways but yes but if people
1:46:38
wish to donate to the ministry you can go to our website compassionatecounselors.com and you can
1:46:43
donate right there and that would be that would be very kind if people would
1:46:48
would do that just so we can continue doing the work that we're doing and and like I said we're going to need more
1:46:54
help and we are in the process of developing a whole another Ministry that is
1:47:00
connected to compassionate counselors you know they don't even have a name for it yet but it's something like the reviling wives Ministry to help these
1:47:07
men so um so thank you thank you for having me on well it's been great to get to
1:47:13
know you and you're a fellow Phoenician and a lover of God and lover of man and and thank
1:47:19
you thank you for the good work that you're doing

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