0:00

so if you're not Discerning and thinking this through you're just going to rush to her defense and you're automatically

0:05

going to start condemning the man this is what happens and the man never gets an opportunity to

0:11

defend himself to say this is what's going on you know let me explain you know

0:17

and anything the man does to try to explain the situation now you're being defensive now you're being prideful and

0:24

you know you're obviously uh you know so upset about this and look at how mad you're getting she's probably right

0:31

about you in fact she is right about you so it just kind of snowballs from there

Introduction

0:42

my guest this week is Dr David Edgington and he's the author of the outstanding book The abusive wife but he proposes

0:49

that the term abusive while familiar isn't exactly accurate a better more biblical term is reviling which he says

0:56

quote focuses on the verbal aspect of mistreatment of others it entails using

1:01

speech as a non-contact weapon against another person to revile is to strike another person it is speech that is

1:08

Harsh and arrogant not only in tone but also in content in substance reviling speech often resorts to mocking ridicule

1:16

and insulting language within the Christian church in recent Generations pastors have specifically overlooked

1:22

this form of abuse of men in their rush to apologize for perceived wrongs of the past does this sound familiar it's not

1:29

hard to connect the dots that as pastors churches and denominations bend the need

1:34

to woke and rainbow Flags they're actually continuing a trend that began long ago succumbing to what I call the

1:41

feminist the apology that women are Eternal victims and every knee must bow to their Almighty feelings now here's

1:49

the thing David wrote his book eight years ago having been in countless biblical or new fetic counseling

1:54

sessions and seen that the husband and wife seem to be playing by different sets of rules the man imperfect as all

2:01

men are but kind accommodating and loving the woman meanwhile is Harsh controlling and unrepentant she refuses

2:09

to be held to the biblical standard of not just submissiveness but of graciousness or even kindness to the man

2:15

she married she Rebels against him in word tone and posture I've seen this in my own mentorship practice and David's

2:21

book gave me better language to talk about it now eight years after the publication of the book as American

2:27

society is being consumed in a feminist-driven conflagration it's hard not to call Dr Edgington just a little

2:34

bit prophetic and quite a bit more than heroic which is why I'm honored to have David on my podcast today not only is he

2:41

a man of great moral courage having called attention to the real world impact of these behaviors for almost a

2:47

decade he also counsels couples on how to come out of this way of being he supports men and how to survive or even

2:53

be Sanctified by it and he helps men to recover from women who have abused them left and worse and praise God there are

3:00

voices like David's calling out from the Wilderness with gentleness firmness and

3:05

an unyielding commitment to the word of God preparing the way for the great Reckoning with truth that must come

3:11

before the great reconciliation in our conversation David and I discussed his excellent book The abusive wife how to

3:18

recognize a reviled husband wokeness and Christianity women and their anger the

3:24

danger of the secular courts how abuse can sanctify us and why women's feelings

3:29

are not sovereign if you enjoy the Renaissance of men podcast thank you please like this video share it and

3:36

subscribe plus leave a comment down below letting us know if you think the image of the reviling wife it's a little

3:41

bit too close to home the Renaissance of men podcast is proudly sponsored by Reformation coffee Pastor Brandon

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lifetime streaming license there you can watch more than seven hours of content that'll help women renew their vision

4:46

for Godly femininity and please welcome this week's guest on the podcast the founder of compassionate counselors and

4:52

the author of The abusive wife Dr David Edgington David thanks so much for joining me on the podcast

Interview Start

4:59

great to be here will thanks so much for inviting me well I mean it's it's a as we discussed

5:04

it's a long chain of friends that led us here today starting with a feminine not feminist and my buddies Kevin and and

5:10

Richie so um it's a it's a real blessing to have this conversation because you know I have your book here the abusive

5:16

the abusive wife which I want to get into but you're talking about a subject that many men and many women are really

5:22

waking up to but you've been talking about it for a while so kind of leading the way is like a voice crying in the

5:29

wilderness so maybe we can get started with like what inspired you to write the book when did you write the book what's

5:34

the story behind it well first of all the um

5:40

I did a search trying to find biblically oriented books on this because I kept running into it and counseling I'm a

5:46

full-time new fedic counselor I still like the word new fetic rather than just biblical because it says something a

5:53

little more biblical yeah um and uh and I found nothing on this topic nothing

5:59

from a Biblical perspective and as far as I know there's still nothing biblical

6:04

on this issue and yet there are men out there that are

6:09

suffering so badly I mean I was I was I was weeping last night because I know so

6:16

many men personally good solid men that are not only getting

6:21

maligned and reviled that's the Biblical word reviled by their wives

6:28

but they're getting condemned not too strong a word condemned by their churches

6:33

and by the past years and by counselors even counselors that

6:39

are certified in the same group that I'm certified in and it is it is a

6:45

it's a pandemic it's it's something that is widespread I wrote my book eight

6:50

years ago wow and it's uh it's gotten far far worse I never dreamed how much

6:57

attention this subject would get and let me talk a little bit about publishing

7:03

the book too I have a a very kind recommendation from Jay Adams basically the father of biblical

7:10

counseling movement new fetic counseling and you know he and I talked about it he

7:16

really enjoyed the book he says boy this is this is really good there's nothing like this out there

7:21

and I thought that when I got a good recommendation from a solid man like that that it'd be easy to publish the

7:26

book I couldn't get any Christian Publishers to publish it not surprised they told me it's too controversial they

7:33

told me it's it's hating women I said did you read it I don't hate women I

7:39

mean it's the farthest thing from my mind some people said there's not that

7:44

this is not that big of a problem um I got all excuses and I thought this is

7:50

really strange so I had to self-publish it Amazon published it Liberal Liberal Amazon published it and

7:58

I go praise God for them you know that uh they're willing to to allow it to be self-published so

8:04

but uh but this is not this problem is not going away we're talking now in June

8:09

2023 and this is way way worse than it was in 2015 when I wrote the book yeah I

8:16

like how you know you're using such solid biblical terms to start with new

8:21

FedEx reviling condemn like these are these are this is biblical language to use to explain a problem and identify a

8:29

problem that a lot of people don't want to look at and because they don't want to look at it it's getting worse like

8:35

that's how these things tend to go exactly and I in a point of clarification people often ask why did

8:41

you use the word abusive wife why didn't you call it the reviling life and the simple reason is most people don't know

8:48

what reviling means right so I had to use a word that's common in our culture and then first two chapters I Define

8:54

well abuse is really not the best term you know abuse can talk about sexual

8:59

abuse emotional abuse again talking you know abuse becomes anything if you and I just agree on something you're abusing

9:06

me so it means really nothing but the Biblical word revile

9:11

is using words as a non-contact weapon where I seek to destroy you I seek to

9:18

not only in in in tone but also in content to destroy and and rip you apart

9:25

so um so revile um I don't know if you want to talk

9:30

about this yeah let's let's get in let's get into it yeah you know the word the word revile in John chapter 9 the man

9:38

born blind was reviled by the Jewish leaders it says they reviled him saying

9:44

you are his disciple but we are Disciples of Moses so it wasn't I don't think it was said as kindly as I

9:51

just said it it's it's that's you know you're his disciple and we're Disciples of Moses so they're trying to destroy

9:58

this man they're trying to ruin ruin him with their words um they're mocking him

10:04

uh in First Corinthians 4 12. it says that when we are reviled we bless so

10:10

there's the picture of antithesis okay when we're reviled we do the opposite we bless instead so if you want to know

10:16

what revile looks like it's the opposite of blessing someone

10:22

um Jesus when first Peter 2 23 says that when he was reviled he did not revile in return

10:30

so see verbal scorning evidences a Hardness of Heart and as we know Jesus

10:38

didn't have a hard heart he was he was perfect in every way so he didn't retaliate in the same way that that they

10:44

were going against him and then one of the most glaring ones is Matthew 15 4

10:51

where it says that whoever reviles his mother or father must be put to death

10:56

so that's telling us that this is a serious serious sin First Corinthians 5 First Corinthians 6 talks about that

11:05

reviling is grounds for church discipline we think of

11:12

uh you know sexual immorality we think of drunkenness we think of all kinds of reasons for church discipline but we I

11:20

really don't know any churches that have done church discipline on a woman for

11:25

reviling her husband I know somewhere then is accused of being real violent but uh but but not

11:33

not the woman so you know so when that's listed in the in the uh the options of

11:40

why church discipline is necessary reviling is right in there so if that's the case this is obviously serious

11:47

enough that we have to address it we have to hold everyone accountable for

11:53

this so before we go any further well I want to make a clarification too because

12:00

I am never I never deny that men are revilers too right I mean you have to

12:07

say state that because people say oh you're on this podcast the reviling wife the abusive wife you must hate women and

12:13

it's like absolutely not I know many men that that fit this description I'm not saying they they don't exist at all

12:20

they're out there too but the problem we're seeing now is that there are women out there you know men

12:26

and women sin pretty much the same amount I think yeah I think Romans 3 23

12:31

applies to everybody yes on that so asterisk all except for women

12:38

right any more than children gonna pass a nut or the elderly get a pass on it's like you know why would we expect

12:44

anything less right but but we live in such a feminized culture

12:49

right now where the feminist voice is so strong and so powerful that that women do get a pass on this

12:58

and so that's I think that's why you have me on the podcast like okay this was the abusive man you know everybody

13:03

say oh yeah no plenty of men like that but the abusive wife or the reviling wife

13:08

we're gonna see more and more people that say I know women like that

13:14

um and I and they contact me too they say I know women like that I've got some reviews that were written on Amazon by

13:21

women that say I know plenty of women like that and then I also know humble women that say you know what I have

13:26

tendencies in that direction myself so thank you for writing writing your book

13:32

yeah that and I I completely agree I've known many women like that

13:38

um you know in my family for example or um just meet them you know I I uh I

13:44

interview often I speak with a woman named Allison Armstrong and she she has a book called The

13:49

Queen's code about how to speak to men about her Awakening to the essentially to the humanity of men because she had

13:55

grown up a feminist and was taught how to relate to men in a particular way and then she realized that men are way more

14:01

complicated than just like dogs or pigs or whatever she recognizes we're actually human beings right with our own with our own way of being that's

14:07

completely different from from women almost like we're designed to be complementary to each other and so she

14:13

spent the past 30 years educating women on how to on how to speak to men and see them but she still sees this kind of

14:20

behavior all the time and she documents it in the book like women that are just they can't harm men physically in quite

14:26

the same way because they lack the physical strength but they have the ability to absolutely cut us apart with

14:33

with words um circles around men can't they that's right that's right they go around and

14:40

around around the man's like wait a minute what's going on I gotta address this and that and and he's just he's just pummeled pummeled with the words

14:46

but it's not just the the Avalanche of words not just the number of words is it

14:52

it's it's the it's the the heart behind the words it's the freight behind the

14:57

words it's the destructive it's the condescending it's the holding in contempt it's the unforgiving it's the

15:05

never apologizing that's these are all the traits that we see in the reviling life that uh you know she's Relentless

15:13

in that and you know she'll never apologize yes she'll never ask forgiveness which is you know two

15:19

different things but you'll never do either one of those very rarely will she do those things

15:24

so she's above reproach in her mind and really as the scriptures say this is

15:30

just simple pride and uh deadly Pride yes very much so and not only that they

15:36

won't the only Redemption is if you completely capitulate exactly there's no

No Escape

15:42

reconciliation there's no like if you just if we can work out the misunderstanding maybe we can come

15:47

together it's like no you I Must Destroy you totally and you have to bow the knee

15:53

to me and then and then I will release you from the suffering that's how that ends up playing isn't it amazing that

15:58

it's parallel to cancel culture woke ideology it's like boy it sounds an

16:04

awful lot like that doesn't it yes because it is that's what it is it's woke ideology

16:10

it's infiltrated good solid conservative Bible teaching churches

16:15

and we got to wake up to this we got to say wait a minute we we can't just capitulate we can't just apologize and

16:21

say you know we have to apologize to every woman who's ever made any accusation it's like

16:27

you know as I mentioned on one of the podcasts the metoo movement has has kind of gripped people in a way that says

16:34

okay just believe any woman for anything that she says and I go well I'm not going to disbelieve any woman

16:40

but I you know you have to ask some good questions you have to find out what's really going on what's what's happening

16:47

with this here's an example um one of the common phrases that you'll

16:55

hear from the reviling wife is that I don't feel safe around my husband

17:03

I don't feel safe and you know so now as a man as a man that loves women wants to

17:08

protect women wants to guard women from harm what is the typical man gonna do

17:14

even a man that's not a pastor that's not a counselor the typical man who's going to run to her defense and say whoa

17:20

boy I got to protect you because you're in danger those are emotionally charged words I don't feel safe

17:27

so if you're not Discerning and thinking this through you're just going to rush to her defense and you're automatically

17:33

going to start condemning the man this is what happens and the man never gets an opportunity to

17:39

defend himself to say this is what's going on you know let me explain you know

17:45

and anything the man does to try to explain the situation now you're being defensive now you're being prideful and

17:52

you know you're obviously uh you know so upset about this and look at how mad you're getting she's probably right

17:59

about you in fact she is right about you so it just kind of snowballs from there

18:04

so it's so instead what I do when a woman says that

18:10

to me with her husband here I I say what what do you mean you don't feel safe has he beat you as he hits you

18:18

has he threatened you has he got the knife or a gun and said if you don't do what I say I'm gonna you know is he

18:25

doing anything like that and almost without fail will they say well no he

18:30

hasn't done any of those things I said well help me understand what do you mean I don't feel safe

18:36

and usually what it comes down to is that well he's asking me to do something that I don't want to do

18:43

and I say okay is it something sinful he's asking you to do well no he's just you know I don't really want to follow

18:49

him I I know better than he does maybe you do but what does the scripture call you to

18:55

do what is the one command on God's word for you as a wife it's to submit to your husband

19:01

and that's a word that we don't want to use anymore submit it's like oh it's a the cursed s word you know it's like boy

19:08

you know don't you find yourself saying oh boy if I use the word submit with a woman she's going to come unglued on me

19:15

sometimes that's what happens and and we've been beaten down so much it's like

19:20

wait we're failing to use the biblical language that is inspired by God that

19:26

says a wife must submit to her husband now again we're not talking about a wife

19:32

that's getting beaten up a wife that's getting you know hit and knifed and threatened and and

19:38

all of that we're not talking about that you know if you're a wife in that kind of a marriage get out of there get out of the hole get your get your children

19:45

out of the home we're not saying submit to a man that's just evil and wicked however we are looking at furnaces First

19:52

Peter chapter 3 that says that even a man that's disobedient to the word the wife needs to submit to him

19:58

so even a man that's not quite getting it the wife's role is still to follow him

20:06

to submit to him and submission doesn't mean I'll go along with you as long as I

20:11

agree with you that's the other that's the other mistake that's often made is like well if my husband says something

20:17

and I agree with it then I'll submit to him I said well that's not submission no you know submission is I don't agree

20:23

with him but I willingly put myself under his authority because this is God's Authority this is the way God has

20:30

established Authority and that's where you're safe now you are safe but you go

20:35

out of that order now you really are unsafe not for the reasons you think you're unsafe but now

20:41

you're unsafe because you're disobeying not just your husband you're disobeying God

20:46

be very careful with that so I know I kind of took down on it we

20:52

were a tangent there no please this touches on so many different everything just relates doesn't it so it really

20:58

does I was listening to a Doug Wilson book uh called her hand in marriage that's about uh courtship and the

21:05

biblical courtship process exists to protect women from just that sort of

21:11

situation where you have you know a potential Suitor going to her father and having to win or earn her father's

21:18

approval because she's under she's under the headship of her father and then she's passed to the headship of her

21:25

husband right that's how that that's how that works and that process exists to

21:31

protect the woman from unrighteous ungodly men that she won't want to submit to right the father is there

21:38

vetting but when we blew apart the courtship process and created this individualized well let's just let's

21:44

just fall and have relations with each other and get our hormones all mixed up and believe that love is the most

21:49

important thing love is all you need we broke apart that um that chain that

21:54

existed for the women's benefit and now we're living in the in the aftermath of that detonation where everyone's having

22:01

to figure it out for themselves and so you have I think you have women entering into marriages carrying that Shield you

22:08

know like nope not not going to submit it's like well hold on just a second here like why did you end up with him in

22:14

the first place I've asked women that question and they don't they really don't like being asked that question yeah yes yes yeah

22:21

no just because a man is trying to lead does not make him a toxic man that's true that does not make it systemic uh

22:29

sexism um you know all of those things and and here's the other thing that's

22:34

interesting about the the husband of a reviling wife not only is there a very clear picture

22:41

of what the reviling wife looks like there's also a very clear picture of what the husband of a reviling wife

22:47

looks like yes he's usually very gentle he's very kind he's very compassionate

22:53

he loves his children he would give anything for his children sacrifice

22:58

anything for his children and yet he tends to be more on the

23:03

passive side of things he's kind of naive about things he's kind of he's kind of too gentle in some ways

23:10

so he's not a harsh angry mean cruel vindictive retaliatory man it's not that

23:17

at all he's the exact opposite of that but that's the kind of man that a

23:22

reviling wife is going to be drawn to because now she can control him

23:28

now she can you know Pummel him with words now her bitter heart comes out

23:34

even stronger because he's not a leader he's not the kind of leader that she's looking for but really she doesn't want

23:41

a leader she wants someone that's going to follow her yeah we get all the way back to Genesis 3 16 you know which is which is

23:49

where all of us started where where did all this start well that's you know that's that's where it started and I

23:54

love the esv's translation on this I think it's the most faithful to the Hebrew

23:59

um Genesis 3 16 your desire shall be contrary to your husband and he shall

24:05

rule over you so it brings out the point that the wife's desire is contrary to the husband

24:13

it's not a Godly desire it's not a kind desire because this is a result of the fall and so this is already the

24:19

Temptation for women now not every woman falls into that category and and and

24:25

plays that out in in real life but this is where this is where it began

24:31

began right at the fall of of Adam and Eve the other side of it is and he shall

24:36

rule over you that's just as ungodly that's the man oppressing the woman so there are men as we've said that are

24:43

like that as well that are harsh that are cruel that are vindictive that are you know beating their wives down

24:49

verbally and sadly many are beating them down physically as well which is wicked and sin we never never give a pass to

24:56

that but these two words in Genesis 3 16 desire

25:02

and Rule they only occur in one other place in the Bible it's in Genesis 4 7 the next chapter after Genesis 3 and and

25:11

there it's with um Cain and how sin has a desire contrary

25:17

to him but he must rule over it so it's a picture to say okay this is what it looks like sin Wants to Rule and control

25:24

and is contrary to God's Will and he has to push back on that and say this this

25:30

is not this is not allowed this is not appropriate so it kind of explains what's going on in Genesis 3 16 write in

25:37

the next chapters I mean it's no coincidence that God put those two words one chapter after the other but that's where it

25:44

comes from you know this is where because that's what people say where does this come from and um

25:50

another area that it's that it comes from also is I have found

25:56

yeah I just I've just kind of found this out because I've counseled so many of these kind of marriages

26:03

um there's usually been some very very deep and painful trauma in this wife's life

26:12

when she was a little girl she's raped she was molested

26:17

she was physically assaulted by her brothers or her father you know there's

26:22

all kinds of all kinds of things like that and so as she gets older as she

26:28

ages she gets triggered by these things with her husband even though he's not doing

26:35

the same thing it's like this just feels exactly like what my dad did to me or this feels like what that rapist did to

26:41

me and so then she projects that onto him onto her innocent husband

26:46

and you know and part of it we just go I feel so bad for these poor women what they've experienced you know so so

26:53

here's another here's another consequence another fruit of how wickedly some men have treated

27:01

women and we're seeing the consequence of that now in the marriage relationship we're seeing that wow that is

27:08

destructive in another another Avenue now and the same demonic

Passing On Abuse

27:16

um work that was done with the rapists with the man beating the little girl with the

27:22

man molesting the little girl the same demonic influence there it comes out later

27:27

in a demonic influence on the wife towards an innocent husband towards the husband hasn't done these things

27:34

so here's a whole nother Avenue I mean I know we've got so many tangents will that we could talk about no I know but

27:39

here's another one parental alienation this is this is just so it is so

27:47

Grievous it is unbelievable we've I hear these stories and I know them I know

27:53

these men I'm not making this stuff up that they get accused of the most wicked

27:58

and evil things they're like where is this coming from why would my wife or my daughter my adult daughter make these

28:05

accusations against me I was just reading one of these emails I got this morning from a man that has basically

28:11

lost everybody in his family through false accusations of sexual

28:18

molestation of rape of you know just just things you go gosh this would have

28:23

to be this wicked monster evil man to do this and yet I know this guy I've known

28:29

him for years he's not that kind of man and his story is not unique I hear it over and over

28:36

and over and over again where the where the wife becomes so embittered against

28:42

her husband that it's not enough to just divorce him then she wants to destroy him she wants

28:50

him to lose his job she wants him to lose his reputation she wants him to go to prison she wants him to just be have

28:56

no contact with anyone in the family and there are men that that I've counseled

29:03

men that are in my I have an online group of men that I meet with and their stories I mean anybody hearing

29:10

their stories would just absolutely weep over what's going on men that have not talked to their

29:16

families in years one man that has a a son a son that's not even a teenager

29:24

yet and the court has ordered him to have contact that that son to have contact

29:30

with him and the son is just yes no yes no bye and you know that's that's the

29:37

substance of the relationship so imagine what that does as I said

29:42

before to a man that already loves his family a man that already would give

29:47

anything his first family and now that family is ripped apart from him so parental alienation a whole nother

29:53

subset of the reviling wife it comes with this it comes with that territory sadly and

30:02

um you know there's a book that needs to be written on that too from a Biblical perspective I you know I've got a dozen

30:08

books in my mind that I just don't have the time or the self-discipline to get them all done right

30:14

but but it's you know you laugh at it but you cry about it you go oh Lord please help these men please

30:22

you know not only relieve them of their suffering but restore reconcile these relationships that have just been torn

30:29

apart so that's a whole a whole nother area

30:35

um maybe we should talk a little bit about what the scriptures say how it describes

30:42

a reviling wife there's a lot there's a lot in the Book of Proverbs on this

30:47

interesting interestingly enough I'll just kind of run through a few of them just always say don't uh take a lot of

30:55

time on it but Proverbs 19 13 a foolish son is ruined to his father and a wife's

31:02

quarreling is a continual dripping of rain so you know if you have a house that

31:09

doesn't have a roof that's properly sealed you can't keep out the rainy weather

31:14

but you could get alternative housing or you get your roof repaired but there's

31:19

no Escape From The Bitter contentious wife Proverbs 21 9 it's better to live in a

31:25

corner of the House Top than in a house shared with a quarrelsome wife

31:31

there's no peace there's no sanctuary in the home this this man has to go to a

31:36

corner of the House Top on the roof of the house to get away from that he's

31:41

going to the furthest point away so that he can get some peace shouldn't be this should not be

31:49

um Proverbs 25 24 it repeats the same same words as 21 nines it's interesting you

31:56

know it's a few chapters later Solomon is repeating that um Proverbs 21 19. it's better to live

32:03

in a desert land than with a quarrelsome and fretful woman so now it's taking it

32:08

to a different level so I get out of the house get off of the roof you got to go out in the desert to get away from this

32:14

constant barrage of reviling and someone that hasn't lived in that kind of a home

32:19

really can't fathom what that's like most men will say well you know every

32:25

husband and wife argue about some things we don't agree on everything I mean you know you don't agree with everything I'm

32:31

assuming you're married you don't agree you're not married okay I'm not sorry but um you know we don't uh we don't

32:37

look at that and say well it's some things that are that are difficult to put up with but

32:43

this is far in a whole separate category the reviling wife is in a way different

32:49

category um look at this picture

32:55

Proverbs 27 15-16 a continual dripping on a rainy day and a quarrelsome wife

33:00

are alike to restrain hers to restrain the wind or to grasp oil in one's right

33:06

hand grasping oil in your hand you know I can change the oil in my cars all the time

33:11

I'm still old school and I do my own oil change like yep you get that oil in your hands it's like I can't grip it I can't

33:17

hold on to it it just it just slips right through so this is again a picture

33:22

of the quarrelsome or contentious or reviling wife

33:28

um Proverbs 12 4 she who brings shame to her husband is like rottenness to his

33:35

bones so now we're talking about the Deep Soul pain that that husband goes through

33:42

these men are just broken they are just destroyed well they have gone through so

33:48

much so rather than peace and contentment she's she's like a piercing scourge

33:55

it's like a living disease in this in this men and it is so sad and again I'm

34:01

not throwing women under the bus I'm looking at this feel for these women that are so bound up in their own misery and their own

34:08

bitterness there's freedom in the gospel there's freedom in Christ there's freedom in what Jesus has done but they

34:16

they they don't see it they don't they don't want to see it in many cases yes and one more and this this passage is

34:22

probably the most descriptive the wisest of women's Proverbs 14 1 the wisest of

34:27

women builds their house but Folly with their own hands tears it down

34:33

if there's one passage that describes it the best I think that's it it's like you know she she could be wise and build her

34:39

house or or she can just be a fool just Folly and tear her house down tear

34:45

everything down tear her family down so you know so just as I mentioned that

34:52

these men will often sacrifice anything and everything for their families they

34:57

don't really care about money they don't care about your reputation they would sacrifice anything for their families

35:04

often what we see in the reviling wife is she'll sacrifice anything for her

35:09

feelings skills therefore that's all that matters

35:15

and as I mentioned in my book feelings are not sovereign feelings don't determine truth feelings are real

35:22

I know she feels the things that she says but that doesn't rule that's not

35:27

the way that we evaluate truth and what's right and what's honorable and what's holy and what's good

35:34

but if your feelings are all that count then you know you're just gonna go

35:40

you're just gonna go on her opinion on on things but what often it doesn't happen the man's feelings don't count

35:46

yeah well I just feel like I'm beaten up I just feel like I can never say

35:52

anything right I feel like I can never lead in my home I feel like you know I I asked my wife

35:58

to do something innocent and she's she's just reviling me and I I don't understand why what am I doing wrong

36:06

it's not that the man is necessarily doing anything wrong some if he is then we we address that we

36:13

want biblical conviction and we call him to repent but if it's not we look at the wife and say we have to hold you

36:20

accountable if we love you we'll hold you accountable

36:26

thank you for all of that um because it's it's all it's all very real and I think I think many men

36:32

listening will relate to this uh one of my friends is a man named Eric Carroll from Dad talk today very popular like

36:39

200 000 followers on Facebook primarily serving divorced ads and one of his

36:46

um one of his big themes that he talks about is Dad deprivation parental alienation and and there's actually a

36:53

phenomenon now where you know parents will get divorced the wife will get

36:58

remarried to another man and tell this other man such horror stories about her

37:04

ex that the man will then go murder the husband and those are starting to happen or she just people are losing lives over

37:11

it and there's a very there's a very moving story about that one one thing I wanted to say is that

37:18

nothing that happened to you in childhood legitimizes your mistreatment of another

37:24

person absolutely ever true it doesn't matter whether you were locked in a

37:31

dungeon and mistreated man or woman that does not give you the right to mistreat

37:36

someone in your future who had nothing to do with it ever ever absolutely no that's I'm glad you

37:44

clarified that because I probably did not but that's it's implied but yeah absolutely true and um

37:52

you know people that have been through these traumatic things there's a real bitterness that's taken roots in their

37:58

hearts yeah Hebrews 12 talks about a root of bitterness and it has to be pulled out and the only thing that can

38:04

pull it out is Jesus the gospel the only thing that can pull that out and they have to embrace it and say okay I was

38:12

wickedly sinned against there's no no question about that is black and white

38:17

you know whether it's locked in a basement or raped or gang raped horrible thing God have mercy on on men

38:24

that have done that to to young women especially um but that woman has got to walk in

38:31

Freedom she does not get an excuse for sin do she does not get the freedom to say well I can treat men this way

38:38

because of how wickedly I was treated no we don't retaliate we bless instead we

38:44

instead of condemning we we bless you know you know we would not that I'm

38:49

saying have contact with the the wicked man that did this right but the innocent man that you're married to now he didn't

38:56

do that but you know will they're blind to that they don't they don't see it

39:02

and it's the same thing that I see with pastors and counselors they're they're blind to these things

39:09

and there's two types of blindness I think at least two different types the one kind of blindness is an innocent

39:15

blindness they don't know any better they don't understand they haven't been taught they haven't been instructed they

39:21

haven't studied the scriptures enough it's kind of an innocent blindness okay okay I just I just don't get it

39:27

but the more frightening one is the prideful blindness yeah people

39:33

have tried to help them people have tried to tell them people have given them biblical information again whether

39:38

this is the wife that's been through the trauma or whether it's the pastor or counselor who is trying to help the

39:45

family there's a lot of pride in counselors and in pastors that keeps

39:53

them from seeing this problem I've talked to them that they don't they

39:58

don't want to see it they go well I'm going to have to admit that I'm wrong then oh and and it's like you know that that's

40:05

what they're saying inside they're not coming right out and saying I don't want to examine all the evidence

40:10

and um you know and the way it begins is

40:16

if you separate the husband and wife in counseling this is the most deadly part I don't even remember if we talked about

40:22

that I know we've talked about what's in the book it's in the book yeah but um separating the husband and wife and the

40:29

counseling in other words just counsel the wife alone and then just counsel the husband alone very deadly very wrong

40:35

absolutely the wrong thing to do and um here's what the scripture says Proverbs

40:42

18 13 if one gives an answer before he hears it's Folly and shame

40:47

so don't give an answer until you hear the whole story until you hear everything that's going on if you think

40:54

you can solve marital Strife but just hearing one side it's not going to go well

40:59

people are innocent until they're proven guilty not guilty until they're proven innocent you know this is this is

41:06

America I mean we still mostly believe that you know we've seen some weaponizing of the justice system

41:12

lately that uh that's the way our country was founded has founded on biblical principles that you have to

41:18

hear the whole story you have to give someone the opportunity to defend themselves um a few verses later Proverbs 18 17 the

41:26

one who states his case first seems right until the other comes and examines him

41:32

so you know I I can't tell you how many counseling situations they sound so

41:38

one-sided until the other spouse tells you the rest of the story you know like Paul Harvey used to say here's the rest

41:44

of the story you know we got to hear the whole side of the story not just hear one aspect of it and make a conclusion

41:52

based on that we've got to hear the whole story so we need the husband and wife together when these um situations

41:59

come up uh Proverbs 20 verse 19 whoever goes about slandering reveals Secrets

42:05

therefore do not associate with a simple babbler or a gossip when you counsel

Avoiding Separate Counseling

42:12

only one person at a time you're encouraging gossip you're encouraging

42:17

them to gossip about the other person and they're gonna you know they're gonna make the other person look bad this is

42:23

why when I counsel people I always request I say please husband and wife I want you both to come together

42:29

so that I can get the whole picture I don't want I don't want you to innocently gossip I don't want you to

42:35

wickedly gossip either I don't want you to you know to say something with your spouse not there

42:40

because it'll give you the wrong impression some people just innocently do that some people do it because they

42:45

want to destroy the other person but um this is this is what happens

42:52

um when we counsel separately and one more verse Proverbs 26 20. for lack of wood the fire goes out and where there

42:59

is no Whisperer quarreling ceases so if if they're both together one party

43:06

cannot tell the secrets of the other person that the other person doesn't want them to hear they they can't do

43:11

this if they're both there together you get the full picture so no so in essence you know the wife says XYZ and the

43:19

husband says well it's real not really the whole story here's the other part of that oh okay that gives me the counselor

43:25

the ability to discern what's going on and say okay not that she's trying to throw him under the bus but if I just

43:32

listen to her I would just assume he's this horrible Wicked Man this is what's happening

43:39

this is exactly what's happening at a lot of these counseling cases I've got many of them I could give stories

43:45

and these men have given me permission permission to tell their stories they won't give you their names but telling their stories that um pastors and

43:52

counselors will talk to the wife and the wife will say something like I don't feel safe like we talked about before

43:59

and the counselor makes up his mind and says boy this this is a terrible situation this man is just this is he's

44:05

a real problem I've had cases where they never talk to the man they don't even ask the man will

44:13

you talk to us they just make the determination they condemn him they're judge jury and

44:18

executioner and it's over it's done now I will say that I when I ask

44:25

husbands and wives please let's both of you counsel together sometimes the wife won't she says no I

44:32

don't want to cancel with you oh wow and I go okay why not well I'm not going

44:37

to any man or any biblical counselor or anything like that yeah so I go okay I'm not going to just leave the man hanging

44:44

up now I'm going to help him but I always ask please husband and wife please both come even if even if I'm

44:52

hearing that it's a reviling wife I still I have to hear her voice and hear

44:57

what she has to say I can't just assume just because the man says she's reviling that she is I have to hear them both

45:05

but if she won't even come for counseling I mean what other conclusion can I draw

45:10

so so that's the sad part and this is what's happening this is

45:16

I was telling somebody the other day it almost reminds me of the Salem witch trials in some ways that the man is the

45:22

scourge he's the wicked one he's condemned he's the evil one he's he's the one you know we don't even have to

45:28

get his testimony and um that's just that's just wicked and evil

45:35

and gossip type of count it's slander as well and it's tearing families apart

45:42

staring children apart from their parents and it's um you know again we get back

45:49

to this has got to be the enemy of our souls that's doing this the accuser of the Brethren that is

45:55

that is behind these things it's it's it's not being done in a corner either

46:00

will this is not well these are just rare very unusual circumstances no it's not

46:08

at all a lot of these men won't talk about it to anybody else because they get shut down

46:15

or because they're so embarrassed it's like it's humiliating to tell somebody what happened with my wife

46:21

it's humiliating to to say this is what my wife is doing and a lot of these men say

46:28

instead of my wife just reviling me non-stop I I wish she would just hit me

46:34

um that's how bad it is and then sadly many of them do I cover

46:40

that in my book too that many many of these women they do resort to physical violence

46:46

and um oh I had a had a story I wanted to

46:52

tell you about with that too um yeah please go ahead

46:57

I don't I have it written down somewhere but I'll just go by go by memory it was a case

47:02

with a man with a reviling wife and she was mad at him about something I

47:09

don't remember what it was but it was something insignificant something very small and so she just came unglued on him and

47:16

started just flailing at him physically hitting him hitting him hitting him over and over and over again

47:24

and um and he grabbed her wrists to keep her from hitting him

47:31

and she she was still she was kicking him she was doing this she was doing that and he and he said

47:38

you crazy and then he used the word that rhymes with which sure I think it's in my book

47:44

and um and so the police were called and you

47:50

know he became an ugly scene and so then the husband and wife are describing the scene so they're

47:56

pastor and their counselor and the pastor hears the story and then

48:02

he says well husband why did you use that word

48:09

you know the husband's like really that's what you're going to focus on

48:14

I mean she was flailing at me she was flailing on him like a wicked demon and

48:20

and all you have to say is why did you use that that bad word with your wife and you know that's that's what happens

48:27

it's like okay the guy is always guilty yeah and you know if that's the case it's like well the man's never going to

48:33

be not even neutral he's never going to win but he's never even going to be neutral

48:39

and as far as I know they never held that wife accountable for what she did to her husband and she was just disagreeing with him

48:45

about something it wasn't something harsh wasn't he wasn't calling her to sin he wasn't you know insisting that

48:51

she do something but uh um she just didn't want to do it and she was so full of Fury

48:58

that she was just flailing on him and he just held her wrists you know just just

49:04

right here not self-defense not choking her not you know nothing like that not getting her not slapping her not kicking

49:10

her and yet the counselor said what use that word for husband wow

49:17

that's what these men are up against and and again these are good pastors I

49:23

mean they're good counselors they they know the Lord they know God's word and that they just push it aside

49:30

and in essence they become bad counselors yeah yeah you know I know a

49:36

lot of these guys I mean the friends of mine I mean I know I know these guys and I go what what's going on no no no you

49:41

don't you don't understand the whole story so well I've talked to both parties I mean what what are you missing here well no you're

49:48

just you're just seeing what you want to see I go no I think it's the other way around you're seeing what you want to

49:54

see brother and um and there's where the pride comes in I'm above reproach I'm the pastor I'm

50:00

the counselor I see everything perfectly and you can't correct the pasture or the counselor then

50:06

so now I mean I've made plenty of blunders and mistakes as a pastor as a counselor

50:12

you know I don't claim to be they have a corner on the market of truth but

50:18

if if it's clear in the word of God that we should be counseling couples

50:24

together why aren't we doing that we're setting the men up

50:30

oh yeah we're abandoning men are abandoned they're they've been abandoned by their pastors

50:36

they've been abandoned by their society they've been abandoned by their fathers and when a woman decides that she's

50:43

gonna take a chunk out of a man with her words with her shame with her vitriol in

50:50

private and in public it happens often too there's no constraints on her at all

50:57

there's no one that can tell her anything and meanwhile TV magazines you

51:03

know the web is like you know you you go girl you're the strong independent hero

51:09

you don't need no man and the movie's reinforce all of this all the heroes

51:15

being shamed by the woman that shows up over and over and over again and there's no and and I can understand being in the

51:22

secular world where there's no constraint on that because they've thrown off God's law but you would think

51:27

that once you can come under the safe hierarchy of a church that a pastor might be able to consult the whole word

51:34

of God and identify a sin for what it is and hold the women accountable but when even the last line of defense won't do

51:41

anything won't speak up and say that's wrong that's sinful we're holding you

51:47

accountable in front of the church body when a pastor won't do that you're leaving men defend for themselves yeah

51:53

and that's love isn't it isn't that love to hold one another accountable absolutely it is I mean you know if if

51:59

you and I are friends and we love each other and we see sin in each other I mean you're going to gently approach you

52:04

would gently approach me or I would approach you and say Hey Brother I don't think this is a good idea you

52:10

know this seems like it's against God's word what do you think and you would hope that you would look at it and say yeah you're you know

52:16

you're right or or that I would look at and say yeah it's what you say is is

52:21

true but this is this is what happens What You Know The Narrative of the reviling

52:28

wife what does she want you know that's the question what does she really want what is what is she

52:34

doing what's what's this all about here's here's what I hear

52:39

and you tell you draw the conclusion you tell me what summarizes all of these things um I want my Independence

52:47

I don't want anybody to tell me what to do I don't need a man to make me happy

52:54

I want to live my own life I don't like the traditional family

53:02

being a mother is not a fulfilling role to me what is that

53:08

feminism it's feminism exactly what it is and yet that's The Narrative of the

53:13

reviling life those are the things she'll you're going to have listeners that are hearing this now and say oh

53:18

yeah I know women like that or maybe a woman that will hear that and say yeah that that is me and and here's my appeal

53:25

to women that are listening right now I don't hate you I don't despise you

53:32

I I want you to humble yourself under God's Mighty hand and listen to the word

53:38

of God and let it work in your soul and change you from being filled with yourself

53:45

to being filled with the presence of God and say it is a Godly thing to submit to

53:52

a man even an imperfect man which every man is I mean me included but this is

53:58

that's all all men in this club raise your hand that's all we're all raising our hands yeah well so

54:04

um this is how you obey and honor God this is how you follow Jesus Christ so

54:13

don't look at this and say I I've got to have my Independence I I don't need a man to be happy now I'm not saying you

54:20

have to be married to be happy but if you are married and you're miserable in your marriage

54:27

get help get new fetic help and meet with the counselor with your spouse so

54:34

that he can help you both and hold you both accountable when I count even when

54:40

I counsel men with reviling wives

54:45

I still hold the man accountable because of his reaction to what she's doing to him so in other words her reviling of

54:52

him does not give him the freedom to revile her back I mean we saw that in

54:58

Jesus right first Peter 2 and he was reviled he did not revile in return so it's like husband you can't revile or in

55:03

return yeah but she's she's doing this no you don't get a pass on this either you have to be a godly man before her

55:11

even in the midst of your trial even in the midst of your suffering that you're going through I know this is hard I know

55:19

this is painful I know it feels hopeless but it's not

55:24

it's not hopeless so so this is one of the things that I urge upon men with um

55:33

understanding what's going on what's God doing

55:38

what does he expect from me and I tell men this and they usually

55:44

don't get it at first but eventually they go I see what you mean now

55:49

this is going to be the most sanctifying time in that man's life what he's going through with the

55:56

reviling wife he's going to grow more through the trials he's enduring then

56:01

through all of the peaceful wonderful happy easy things in his life

56:07

I think we find that in our lives that the deeper and the darker the affliction

56:13

the more readily God can work and change us and that's what happens with these men

56:19

that really pursue the Lord with all their heart they don't just play Church

56:25

they're not just religious they're not just going through the motions they say all right Lord work in me there's things

56:31

about me why is this hurting me so badly well first of all First Peter 1 6 says

56:38

that some of our trials are necessary you know these are necessary if necessary you've been grieved by various

56:45

trials so first of all we look at that say okay this is this is needful I may not want

56:50

it but it's part of God's plan for me and it's not that the man is a bad man

56:57

it's not that he's a man full of sin but he needs these trials to be the school

57:02

in which God teaches him so what are some of the things that God teaches him one of the things he teaches

57:08

is compassion patience the King James translates the word

57:14

patience as long suffering makes it a very Vivid picture doesn't it long you have to be willing to suffer a long time

57:21

that's what a patient man looks like in Colossians 3 12 says to put this on

57:27

put on patience put on compassion put on meekness put on these things you have to

57:35

desire to become that kind of man through what you are enduring it'll make

57:40

you a better man the suffering is hard and painful and and it is very very much debilitating at

57:49

times that it will refine you it will sanctify you it will change you this is

57:55

what God is doing in that um a man will learn a lot about forgiveness

58:01

Matthew 6 verses 14 and 15 says for if you forgive the sins of others then

58:08

you'll be forgiven but if you don't forgive then you're not forgiven so forgiveness is not a peripheral idea in

58:16

Scripture it is Central and the only part in The Lord's Prayer which is Matthew 6 9 through 13.

58:23

the only part of that prayer that is repeated is in verses 14 and 15. the two verses

58:30

right after it are about forgiving forgiving one another this is what's the

58:36

hardest part for us to do is to forgive but it's also the most freeing and the

58:42

Beautiful and the proof of the work of God in your heart you are forgiving man that that's evidence that you are born

58:49

again you're not forgiving it's evidence you're not born again you say I can't

58:54

forgive I can never let that go that's giving the impression that well there's no hope for me I can't uh you

59:02

know I I there's there's no way that I could ever forgive my wife or what she did so same thing works for the wife

59:07

towards the husband too whatever she's holding against him she has to forgive him but again this is

59:13

a sanctifying thing this is what God is doing this is what God is sowing in the man's heart through all of his

59:19

afflictions and trials the man's going to learn about anger and bitterness and repentance from that

59:27

um Ephesians 4 31 talks about that Hebrews 12 15 we alluded to that before

59:33

about put it all away anger wrath slander bitterness let put it all away

59:39

from you we've got to get get that out of our Lives because it's not going to be constructive there is a place for

59:45

righteous anger but often I think what we do is we we justify our anger by saying well it's

59:51

righteous so therefore it's okay it's like be very very careful with that the

59:56

word of God calls us to repent from anger it's very destructive it can really harm

1:00:02

it can do some good with men that say I care about Justice I care about

1:00:08

righteousness okay good but be careful don't stay in that anger very long because it will destroy you it'll

1:00:15

destroy your witness your testimony and everything else but um

1:00:21

a man's going to learn boy why did I get so angry at what she said to me what she did to me

1:00:27

this is another another sanctifying time for that man um

1:00:34

learning how to Lament we don't talk very much about that either

1:00:39

Sorrows lamentation we've got a whole book in the Bible called the Lamentations right Jeremiah wrote it

1:00:46

and you see you know Jeremiah just as hard as Rift I mean he's called the weeping prophet well why he's lamenting

1:00:53

over the sins of his people and over the consequences of those sins upon an

1:00:58

entire nation and if you look at Lamentations chapter three it's really interesting

1:01:05

because he says you did this God you did this you did this you did no God did

1:01:11

these things like okay what does he mean by that and at the end of Lamentations three he's he's talking about learning

1:01:17

to wait on God so it's designed to draw the man to the Lord lamenting towards

1:01:24

God not lamenting in self-pity not lamenting in in feeling sorry for

1:01:30

yourself woe is me but lamenting in a sense of the loss that I have and I'm

1:01:35

waiting on God to restore and to bless and to change me and to soften my heart

1:01:43

sometimes that takes a long time but that's what's going on well I wanna I wanna jump in here and I say what about

1:01:50

her so I understand that we're being that a man can be put through this trial and

Supprting Reviled Men

1:01:56

let's say she's doing everything short of physical violence she's not standing over the bed with a knife right but the

1:02:02

the and let's say that it's a the couple doesn't have kids that's all because that's a whole other complex but she's

1:02:09

verbally abusive rebellious actively on a daily basis shaming and

1:02:15

public and in private gossiping about her husband even ruining his professional opportunities with her

1:02:21

loose mouth like she's doing everything she can to persecute her husband there's part of me that says yes absolutely to

1:02:30

everything that you're saying sanctification for real but there's another part of me that's like we can't

1:02:35

just leave this man to die in this dungeon for a woman who has no intention

1:02:41

to ever repent and who actually just wants to punish him out of the pure

1:02:46

Wicked bitterness of her heart is there no no and there's no hope for this man

1:02:51

do we just I mean I obviously the Lord is with him and and yes and but there is

1:02:57

a component of like the Lord helps those who help themselves can he leave can he

1:03:03

just say you know what I've had it I'm gonna I'm gonna move out we made a marriage covenant I get that not going

1:03:09

to get a divorce right but I'm gone like you don't get to pretend that you're in a relationship anymore I'm not going to

1:03:15

allow myself to be subject to this anymore at what point at what point can

1:03:20

a man simply say that you know I've had enough dialogue pardon my language but I don't know how else to say it yeah no

1:03:28

it's it's it's a it's a great question it's a great point

1:03:33

and it shows the compassion for the man yeah to even ask that question

1:03:38

because I know you're not asking it in the sense of saying I want this man to have an easy way out

1:03:44

no you know because that's not what we want and sometimes

1:03:50

the um the trials the afflictions that's God's

1:03:56

goal with the man so that he learns and grows and changes it's not

1:04:02

not about the marriage it's about him think of the Book of Job for instance

1:04:07

here we have job that he loses his children he loses his health

1:04:14

he loses the love of his wife and then even his friends turn against

1:04:20

him yeah it loses his kids yeah so he's he's got everything and he's lost his business too he's all of

1:04:26

his livestock's gone I mean he he's lost everything literally and then not only does he lose his

1:04:33

friends but he calls them worthless Physicians miserable comforters

1:04:41

and you go through the whole book of job and you're just waiting you're waiting for the answer okay God why why why

1:04:50

and you never get the answer do you because if you get the answer and say well this is why God did it then you

1:04:57

would say well that was that was the reason that's the purpose of all of this

1:05:02

but I think because it's left unexplained it's left unsaid why God did this

1:05:08

it's telling us what the answer is it's telling us that this is for the man to draw near to the

1:05:15

Lord and find that peace in his soul that only God can bring because nothing

1:05:20

in the world is going to bring it not his wife not his children that he's lost

1:05:27

not his three friends who are sadly

1:05:32

um you know erstwhile friends you know their former friends really they really are not acting like friends at all

1:05:39

he's um he's lost everything except for one thing

1:05:44

he's he's not lost his relationship with God and he is changed and grown and

1:05:50

Sanctified through that and so by the end of the books chapter 42 you see God rebuking the men

1:05:59

and saying job's going to pray for you because job has done what is right

1:06:05

and so you see that you know the men that I've talked to I urge them read the book of job again with new eyes with

1:06:11

fresh eyes and see see what God is doing

1:06:16

um he's trying to refine you he's trying to change you

1:06:22

and not that you're a bad man not that you're an evil man

1:06:27

but he wants you to be a better man he wants to be a better father a better husband a better leader now

1:06:33

I know I haven't totally answered your question it's like David you're still avoiding my questions like well

1:06:40

I don't understand I'm not really avoiding it I I don't want any men out there

1:06:45

to look at this and say well I've got justification to leave my marriage because of what

1:06:52

David and will talked about on the podcast I don't want men to have right that kind of a thought in their mind

1:06:59

because I think every case has to be looked at individually and examined and these men need help

1:07:07

they need somebody to come alongside of them not to condemn them but to talk with them and say okay let's

1:07:14

let's address this let's address that let's address your sin husband let's address the things that that you are

1:07:20

doing wrong not things that are causing your life to be this way but let's let's address those things let's not just run

1:07:27

away and get out of this marriage but you know it's easy for you and me to say that it's like I'm not in that marriage so let's let's

1:07:33

does hold on you know it's easy for us to say that but I don't want to make it easy for the

1:07:39

man to say I've got full justification to get out of this marriage too right that's too

1:07:45

much that's what a lot of men will do that are that are listening to this and I don't I don't want that I mean I hold I hold marriage in very very high regard

1:07:53

and yet I do no I do know that many of these men that

1:07:58

have counseled they lost their marriages and yet very few of the men

1:08:05

filed for divorce there's a few of them but very few of them did It's usually

1:08:10

the wife that does even though she's the guilty one even though she's the one doing the reviling

1:08:17

and the bitter controlling angry Wicked one what I do instead will is I encourage

1:08:25

the men to lovingly and kindly fear God rather than they

1:08:31

fear their wives stand and Lead don't back down

1:08:37

don't be mean about it don't be cruel don't be just yelling at your wife and saying you've got to submit to me woman

1:08:42

you know not any of that kind of nonsense but just lead be the man that God calls

1:08:49

you to be and now if the wife leaves you go well I've done what God wants me to do yes

1:08:55

I'm eating in a way that's oppressive I'm not ruling over my wife in a harsh way

1:09:01

but I'm kind of I'm putting everything forward so that okay

1:09:07

wife I I have led you in the wrong way I've been too passive

1:09:14

I have equivocated I've abdicated I have been complicit in things

1:09:20

and I've compromised I can't do that anymore because I have to fear God more than I fear you so I'm

1:09:26

gonna start making some changes and some things that are going to be different now I want you

1:09:33

to join me in let's glorify and honor God together

1:09:40

have a conversation something like that with your reviling wife now she may just blow up and say you know you're just a

1:09:46

toxic man and you know all that stuff or maybe she'll hear it and listen and say okay

1:09:55

okay I'll follow you yes rare rare but I have seen it I have seen it happen

1:10:02

but if she leaves now then the man can say look I've done everything I can

1:10:08

amen I have been the man that God calls me to be and if she leaves so be it

1:10:14

most of these men even after their wives divorce them and leave them they still love their wives they still oh I wish

1:10:21

you would recognize I wish you would come back I wish you know and sadly eventually there has to come a

1:10:28

point where the man has to say I just have to let her go not out of hatred not out of an abandonment but she doesn't

1:10:34

want to be under my authority and under my protection she's made that clear

1:10:40

she's on her own now yeah so I haven't directly answered your

1:10:46

question no you did that's what I'm that's the way I I try to help men because I

1:10:51

I don't want this to be a get out of jail free card same and yet

1:10:57

I just grieve for what these men are going through I just go oh this is so so

1:11:03

painful so lonely so hard and very few people understand what

1:11:09

they're enduring very very few you know I've had contact from

1:11:16

maybe two or three pastors and counselors around the nation

1:11:22

that have contacted me and said wow I like what you've said on your podcast

1:11:28

hopefully there'll be more with the podcast yeah but you know two or three

1:11:35

out of the thousands that have heard this and I go what's wrong with this picture am I a

1:11:41

bad guy are you a bad guy I mean are we just scratching where nobody's itching it's

1:11:46

like oh no we're scratching right we're men are riching and they're like man I need help here please please help me

1:11:54

I got a call this morning from a guy in Canada from British Columbia Canada that heard one of the podcasts and I go okay

1:12:02

what's what's going on with with you same story same exact thing it's it's almost like

1:12:09

it's a textbook case the men that read my book

1:12:14

that here one of these podcasts I've done they tell me the same thing they say

1:12:19

it's like you had a um a recorder and you are taping what's

1:12:27

going on in my house the conversation the way things play out

1:12:33

what I say what my wife says how do you know this so well

1:12:39

and I go I think I'm just faithful to God's word I'm just trusting what God says I'm nothing special

1:12:46

if nothing I'm not brave or courageous I'm just saying I have to stand where God's word stands and and I've seen this

1:12:54

so many times now that it's almost predictable

1:13:01

so um I'll make that available to people as

1:13:06

well it's kind of a dangerous thing to do this but any man or woman is listening to this podcast with you

1:13:13

you're free to contact me compassionate counselors is the ministry compassionatecounselors.com is our

1:13:19

website um my email address is Council the word at

1:13:26

pm.me so PM as in protonmail.me and uh

1:13:33

I'll even give you my phone number 602-384-4417

1:13:41

I edit out the phone number just in case that's up to you I'll let you I'll let you decide on that but I just want to

1:13:48

help I just want to help these families and I want to help these men because they need they they need this

1:13:53

help it's not it's not going away it's getting worse yes

1:13:59

and uh we need pastors to be leading the way in this we need new fetic biblical

1:14:06

counselors leading on this not figuring it out 10 years later

1:14:11

but leading the way on this because we're hurting people or we're

Calling Attention to the Problem

1:14:18

we're not only allowing people to get hurt but we are hurting them as well

1:14:24

we can't uh we can't just ignore that we can't just put that aside

1:14:30

men especially are being hurt absolutely men women are women have free reign and

1:14:36

license to harm men when when a man comes to me and says he's lucky for a church by the way there's like a thousand different tangents that that we

1:14:43

could that we could go on you know I always tell him when you go and meet with the pastor if you're considering

1:14:50

joining a church you have to ask the pastor three questions and that will tell you where the church is really at

1:14:55

question number one do women sin question number two do women sin against

1:15:03

men question number three are you capable of holding women accountable for sin

1:15:10

if he hesitates on even one of those questions leave

1:15:15

leave because you will be you will be abandoned now like you can get a sense

1:15:20

of you can like he may hesitate or answer like he answered correctly like you'll feel it out in the moment like

1:15:26

it's like oh you you know you you took a breath and I'm out you know so obviously you know use discernment with it but

1:15:32

there are far too many pastors that will that will answer no to one of those questions yes women sin yes women sin

1:15:38

against men no I'm not capable of holding women accountable for sin leave more willing to or willing to yeah able

1:15:44

and willing yeah because because otherwise you have men that again will feel like they've been

1:15:51

abandoned that they'll be held accountable for things that are not their fault that their wives will have

1:15:57

weapons free against their husbands and especially their children and this is something that I tend that I talk a lot

1:16:03

about on Instagram with some female content creators you know who are talking about motherhood like this we're

1:16:10

surviving of of their husbands it also goes down to their sons in many cases as

1:16:16

well yes and daughters in a different way but I mean maybe you can talk a little bit about the impact of the

1:16:22

reviling light of the reviling wife on her sons yeah it's on Sons and on

1:16:29

daughters yeah that's the revivaling wife has daughters

1:16:34

that are if not intentionally and deliberately trained in being reviling there by by

1:16:41

example they're being trained how to be a reviling wife when they grow up and

1:16:47

when they marry a man so it's deadly from that perspective because they have

1:16:52

an in inbred contempt for men because their mother does

1:16:57

and it's like I'm not going to trust any man I'm not going to entrust myself to any man I'm not going to follow any man

1:17:04

I Am Woman hear me roar you know I I'm strong and I can do whatever I want and and so

1:17:10

it's deadly for young girls that are growing up in that home but you mentioned for boys too same thing with

1:17:17

boys that they see their father Just Whipped verbally and and

1:17:23

demoralized and emasculated and if the man does not stand up and say

1:17:30

you know this is not going to keep going on we can't keep having this if he just abdicates again that young boy is going

1:17:36

to be that same kind of a young man and now we've got the problem just going down spiraling generation after

1:17:43

generation after generation and eventually someone has to stand and say look what do the scriptures say yeah

1:17:51

what does the word of God teach that's the kind of man I have to be but it is

1:17:56

very hard you know it's hard to be a leader when you don't have anyone that wants to

1:18:02

follow you isn't it yes yes you know I was like okay I'm the leader of my home I'm the head of our

1:18:08

home but the wife says I'm not following you and the wife says kids don't follow him because he's a bad man

1:18:15

it's very hard for that man to lead in his home but lead he must he must still stand and say

1:18:22

with gentleness with kindness with compassion but still be firm in his faith and say

1:18:30

I'm I'm not going to give in on this I'm not going to abdicate my role

1:18:36

so you're absolutely right it's it's like the curse that goes on generation to generation of those that hate God

1:18:43

and I'll say that as well that I probably implied it earlier

1:18:49

but these reviling wives are more than likely not born again

1:18:54

I was going to ask yeah I feel the same because there's no repentance there's no

1:19:00

sorrow there's no ownership of their sin I talked to a man yesterday that his

1:19:07

wife had just filed for divorce and she was a reviling wife I had

1:19:13

met with the two of them so I knew the situation and the man asked her

1:19:21

what part did you play in this the destruction of our marriage what part did you play in this wife

1:19:28

and she said it was 100 his fault 100 percent

1:19:33

and not only is that wrong it's the opposite of reality it's almost 100 his fault her fault

1:19:40

you know the man had some culpability in it but but nothing that would have ended the marriage nothing at

1:19:47

all and so there's that we get back to that blindness again and again it's a

1:19:53

prideful blindness it's not an innocent blindness that I just don't know any better it's a I'm digging my heels in

1:19:58

and I'm blind to the truth I'm blind to the reality that I sin just like anybody

1:20:05

else does I don't see how that person could be born again I really I really don't yeah

1:20:13

I've struggled with I've struggled with that as well you know because this is something that I'm that I mentor and counsel men through that I see very

1:20:20

often as um you know maybe they're they're the sons of reviling mothers their mothers taught them what to expect

1:20:26

from women they get into relationships with women who mirror that relationship with their mother it's a common human

1:20:32

thing that we do and then at some point the men wake up because they read a book or they encounter content and and we

1:20:38

start talking and start taking the pieces apart and it's like yeah okay I see that you're in a relationship with

1:20:44

you have a reviling wife to varying degrees and um and then they'll say but you know

1:20:50

we're in a Christian marriage it's like oh well or like you know my wife led me to Christ you know I was like and and

1:20:57

it's a very it can be very difficult to work through that I've been married for 20 years I became Christian because of her we had Christian vows and now 20

1:21:05

years on she's fully in Rebellion like hates God hates the Bible hates

1:21:11

everything and it's like I don't know was she was she ever a Christian to begin with these are no you know exactly

1:21:17

yeah no I've had the same thing I've had men that say you know my wife helped me she she got books by John McArthur and

1:21:23

John Piper and wow and this and that and and you know it really helped me as a

1:21:28

husband and a man and now she doesn't believe any of that stuff she just throws it all away and I go wow

1:21:34

really you know good you know good solid I mean all those guys are good solid guys I mean we don't agree with anything

1:21:40

they say but I go dad love to have a friendship with any of those guys and yet it's like no

1:21:46

so but we we know that knowledge puffs up knowledge is not enough it has to be

1:21:53

working in the heart doesn't it has to be changing your heart that's what the gospel does it changes and transforms

1:21:59

the heart where there's character that's developed and it's only developed by the spirit of God and what's the fruit of

1:22:05

the spirit love joy peace gentleness faithful self-control you know that that's what we look for and when we see

1:22:12

that we go that's the spirit of God working but then you look at the works of the

1:22:18

flesh we're in Galatians 5. you look at the works of the flesh what are they there's there's anger there's there's

1:22:24

all these forms there's like eight forms of anger that are mentioned there as works of the Flesh and it's like

1:22:31

that's what I see in my wife I see a lot of different forms of anger

1:22:36

but I don't see love joy peace faithfulness gentleness self-con

1:22:43

self-control I don't see that what's what's missing well don't become the judge of your wife

1:22:49

but evaluate and say boy I want to make sure those things are being built in my heart that's the fruit

1:22:55

that's the work of the spirit of God in my heart so

1:23:01

yeah the other thing I want to mention too that please um

1:23:06

when men go through this and they don't they don't get any help from their

1:23:13

Church now it goes into the secular courts

1:23:20

and now you got to play by the world's rules and the men lose yeah you played by the

1:23:26

secular court rules that the man the man loses you know years and years of child

1:23:33

support or what's called a divorce tax where you know he has to pay spousal support to his wife and and um

1:23:41

uh the church should be stepping in and saying we don't want you to go to the

1:23:47

courts we want to help you as the local church we want to Shepherd and Pastor

1:23:53

you your family and help you we're not the pastor of your family the

1:23:59

husband is the head in his home not the pastor of the family um

1:24:04

but we should be coming alongside and helping you not making it so that you have to go to the secular authorities to

1:24:11

get get resolution on this because you're not going to get resolution you go to the secular courts he's going to be a

1:24:17

train wreck and a disaster and it's got to be crazy expensive and it's going to destroy your family even more you know I

1:24:24

mean there's all kinds of things that are going to happen here so I I wish churches would take this more

1:24:31

to heart and say we have to help these men and if if there's a pastor or a

1:24:37

counselor listening to this podcast and a man comes to you Pastor or counselor

1:24:43

and he says some of these things about a reviling wife please don't dismiss him please don't

1:24:50

just say well he's obviously just a a toxic man he's obviously just a bad man

1:24:56

you know please listen to him and investigate it check it out he could be

1:25:01

deceiving you but he's probably not that's it now investigate it

1:25:09

I wanted to talk quickly if we can about some of the larger

1:25:15

societal issues that this ties to so obviously the family court system being

1:25:20

completely captured and twisted and being very anti-husband anti-father by

1:25:26

default it's like well we just default assume that the man is in the wrong and

1:25:31

we're going to take the kids from him and half of his income and we're not even going to investigate it that's just the presumption right but there's this

1:25:38

is showing up you know this General abdication to hold women accountable seems to be showing up society-wide and

1:25:45

as we were talking before we started recording it's it's widespread and these

1:25:51

are not coincidences that all these things are happening like there's something there's something larger going on and it's not just about the political

1:25:57

movement of feminism right exactly yeah no it's it's not you know politics is not the problem

1:26:04

politics is just you know kicking the can down the road um the the problem is that we don't we

1:26:10

don't have a Biblical view of anthropology we don't have a Biblical view of progressive sanctification

1:26:16

we don't have a Biblical view of christology of hamartiology of all of these things you know the study of study

1:26:23

of man the study of sin the study of sanctification you know we miss all of those things in the

1:26:28

church and it and it goes out into the society and even more to the point what the

1:26:35

society says gets into the church and it corrupts the church and then it goes back out into the society again and it

1:26:41

makes things worse so you know like we talked about a little bit in the beginning was the the

1:26:46

whole um Wok ideology is is a massive massive problem in the church

1:26:53

and I've had I've had pastors that I've talked to about that and they say oh I don't

1:26:58

believe in that stuff and I say brother you do you really do you don't you don't see it

1:27:04

well I don't embrace you know communism and Marxism and all that stuff well maybe not to that degree

1:27:10

but you're buying into it right here because you're automatically just kind of assuming

1:27:15

that you get the whole picture and and you don't so brother please please listen please

1:27:21

hear please hear what God has to say and um

1:27:27

so it's that it's that tension between gentle and compassionate

1:27:32

and being bold and forthright and say you know we have to be bold about this

1:27:37

we have to we have to be courageous and say we we have to say what is true and

1:27:43

right even if our culture opposes it because now we get back to fearing God rather than fearing man rather than

1:27:50

fearing the state rather than fearing what um a reviling wife might say or a church

1:27:57

might assume about you because you're just defending yourself

1:28:04

another thing um don't agree with a lie

1:28:11

so in other words if a man says well my wife is accusing me of this

1:28:16

and if I don't go along with her she's going to get really mad at me

1:28:24

don't just go along with her to keep peace yeah because all it is is a ceasefire it's not peace yeah you know

1:28:32

we have a ceasefire with China right now don't we but we don't have peace with

1:28:37

China okay nobody's killing each other at least overtly but would anybody say well

1:28:44

we have peace with China it's like well no we're just waiting for the next thing to come

1:28:50

same thing in the reviling wife in the marriage you can't just make peace your ultimate

1:28:56

goal you have to glorify God in your marriage you have to lead in your family you have

1:29:02

to honor the Lord Jesus Christ in what you do that's what you're called to you know

1:29:08

we're supposed to love the Lord Our God with all our heart our soul our mind and our strength that's the greatest commandment

1:29:15

and if we don't love truth enough to stand on the truth then we really don't love God with all our heart do we

1:29:22

or with all our mind yeah so you know the church should be

1:29:28

leading the culture on this and yet as we've seen for decades now the church follows the culture on this

1:29:36

and then we see these political things going on we're like why is that happening well our churches are not

1:29:43

honoring our churches are not faithful to God's word and um

1:29:50

and yet I know many great pastors good Brothers I've been here in the valley for 30 years and I've got a lot of good

1:29:56

friends that that love the Lord and love his word but I've also seen a number of them

1:30:03

lately in the past four or five years they've just abdicated yeah and just

1:30:10

kind of gone along with the culture in the world and I go

1:30:15

don't you understand that the world the Biblical term World means a society

1:30:21

and Rebellion against God why would you follow that is that what that is that an

1:30:26

actual that's an actual biblical term yeah the term world you look at it in first John and the Gospel of John you

The Meaning of "World"

1:30:32

know don't love the world or the things of the world what's he talking about he's not talking about the planet

1:30:37

he's not just talking about the people he's talking about the whole society that's in Rebellion against God that

1:30:43

doesn't want to follow God Hmm this is why we see all the

1:30:48

the gender confusion things yeah I was going to use the word transgender but it's not a real legitimate word it's not

1:30:55

a make-believe word it's good yeah it's a good point or like gay marriage that's not a it's not a real thing either not a

1:31:01

thing it's a make-believe world word but um you know we have to stand on

1:31:07

truth and we can stand on that with love we don't have to mock people we don't have to ridicule people we say no this

1:31:14

is what God says well who are you to say What God Says he wrote a book you know I got a I got a

1:31:20

book with 66 books in it that tells me what God says you know yeah and the author of that book says I'm the way and

1:31:26

the truth and the life no man comes to the father but by me I didn't make that up he said it not me

1:31:35

so but that's the way of Peace and Freedom Joy all the things that people want all

1:31:41

the things that people are craving and desire it comes through the good news it comes through the gospel it comes

1:31:47

through God working in the hearts of man and forgiving sin and becoming their

1:31:53

Lord he's their King and he will he will take care of everything in their life

1:32:00

so um I I think we have to we have to have

1:32:07

that that boldness and that courage will I mean I think that's what's really necessary but we have to have the

1:32:14

word of God as the authority the scriptures have to be the authority

1:32:19

um you know second Timothy 3 16 and 17 all scripture is breathed out

1:32:25

by God so all of it's breathed out by God and profitable for teaching for reproof for correction and training and

1:32:33

righteousness that the men of God may be complete and equipped for every good

1:32:39

work do we believe that we really believe that is breathed out by God and here's what

1:32:47

it does it does all these things we can't just add psychology to that or

1:32:53

Psychotherapy and say well we're going to come out with something better it's like no you're going to dilute what the word of God says you're gonna

1:32:59

you're gonna compromise on what the word of God says so we stand

1:33:04

boldly with that like Martin Luther here I stand I could do no other

1:33:10

God help me that that's where we have to be I think a lot of men

1:33:17

need first need to hear that message and but I think ultimately the bottom of many many Christian men uh would rather

1:33:25

listen to the word of woman rather than the word of the lord they're not they're

1:33:30

simply not strong enough constitutionally at the moment with spine and heart to really stand in the

1:33:36

word of the Lord and say no this is this is how it is this is how it is and if you think

1:33:43

proverbs 31 3 do not give your strength to women yeah it doesn't say to a woman it says

1:33:51

don't give your strength to women you know we're letting women lead and

1:33:56

they should not be leading and we're afraid we're afraid afraid to take the leadership Reigns from them

1:34:02

we're afraid to even say that to breathe that to them like you're not supposed to be leading I got a book that says it

1:34:09

right here we know because they can't stand up yeah

1:34:15

don't we can't fear we can't uh we can't back down we lovingly lead we

1:34:22

graciously lead we we say no this is what God says this is what we have to do

1:34:29

now a uh a woman with a good heart is going to

1:34:34

say boy great I'm protected yes that's what I want I want a man like

1:34:40

that but if a woman is listening to that and she hears this man is Harsh he's wicked he's cruel

1:34:48

he's domineering he's oppressed you're not hearing it you're not hearing it right because there are there's good men

1:34:54

like that out there I could introduce you to dozens of them I know a lot of these guys you know and

1:35:01

I'm sure you're one of them will from what I no views like yep I know plenty of men like that and um

1:35:08

uh but women think they're going to be happy by ruling and they're not

1:35:15

they're going to find that it's it's going to destroy him so it can destroy society as well

1:35:22

absolutely you see it around us destroy them destroy families destroy churches destroy Society it's it is

1:35:31

destructive sadly it's destructive do you have time for one or two more questions I know we're we're deep into

1:35:37

it at the moment yeah a couple more go ahead yeah okay so there was something that you brought up a while back that is

1:35:44

so important to the book and I want people to understand it because it's such a powerful phrase I wonder if you

1:35:49

can unpack your feelings are not sovereign because we live in an age that worships

1:35:55

feelings and certainly and certainly women are in many ways led by their feeling and their intuition which is one

1:36:00

of the reasons why we love them but there can also be a point at which the feeling is the one that takes control

1:36:07

so you and you did a great job with that in the books I wonder if you could talk about that idea

1:36:12

yeah the feelings are sovereign idea is that um a woman feels something and therefore in

1:36:21

her mind it's absolutely true and and you know and I mean on the surface you look at that you say well

1:36:27

that's kind of silly nobody does that do they go oh yeah they do yeah I've seen women that that say that uh

1:36:34

well you you have um uh

1:36:40

you have this idea that you are supposed to lead me and I feel like that is

1:36:46

oppressive I feel like that is Harsh I feel like this is

1:36:53

um not giving me freedom and the man will say well I'm really not trying to do

1:36:58

that um as I'm just remembering an example from

1:37:04

counseling from years ago where I literally had the husband and wife in my office

1:37:10

good and they're good friends today this is an example of a wife that's repentant about Corey violent so it's a good story

1:37:18

um but at the at the time I'm like this is just crazy what's going on so the husband and wife are talking and the

1:37:24

husband is describing something he's describing a situation he's very calm he's very gentle

1:37:30

he's not harsh or anything and the wife turns to him

1:37:35

and she says you're you're just a phony you're a fake

1:37:41

you're a fraud I feel like you are just you're just making the stuff up and you're not really like that and and you

1:37:48

know she's just accusing of all of these things because she felt that he was being fake and the husband turns to her

1:37:55

and says what what are you talking about what do you what do you mean and she says no you're really angry

1:38:01

right now you're saying things in a soft and gentle way but you're really angry right now

1:38:07

he's like no I'm just saying things very gently and you know and I know it's comical Now you listen to it now I'm

1:38:13

just watching this unfold in my office and I'm like what what is going on here every man's been through this yeah so I

1:38:19

stopped the conversation I said okay wife um he's gentle right yeah he's gentle

1:38:25

he's very soft-spoken yep he is and you know I just run through what I was seeing with the man

1:38:31

and I said but you see him as being angry when he's doing that yeah absolutely I know he's I know him so

1:38:38

well I know his heart I said oh wait a minute wait a minute you're assuming something about him

1:38:45

that's absolutely the opposite of that if he was harsh and banging his hand on the table and jabbing his finger in your

1:38:52

face and doing then I'd say okay he probably is Harsh and angry and mean right now but that's not the case he's

1:38:59

the opposite of that why would you judge his heart so harshly well it's because that's what I feel but I feel that way

1:39:07

so she didn't say the words but my feelings are sovereign and and so in this case

1:39:14

it just took a lot of time with her and kind of walked her through that and she she eventually saw that she was

1:39:21

being quite foolish and judgmental she repented and changed

1:39:26

but uh that's an example you know my feelings are all that matters and the

1:39:32

husband is quiet and he's soft and he's gentle well you're prideful well you're being angry right now you're

1:39:39

you're really angry even though you're using gentle words like what why what do you mean by that well I feel that's what

1:39:46

you're doing I go you can't just operate by feelings because feelings are deceptive

1:39:52

and feelings I I mean some of this comes from the enemy that you know okay attack

1:39:57

your husband now go after him because he's being a phony and a fraud and

1:40:03

um you know you you you can't just make that kind of a judgment it's irrational it's illogical it's it's cruel it's

1:40:11

vindictive so your feelings are not sovereign your feelings don't determine truth I mean

1:40:16

truth is is what's a fact so so that's an example of that where often wives

1:40:24

they're very feelings driven often they feel things and therefore they

1:40:30

assume it to be true and um you know just have to gently be

1:40:35

urged let's step back a second let's kind of think this through let's let God's word renew and change our minds

1:40:43

here because I don't think you're seeing this right so that's an example of the feelings are

1:40:50

sovereign I know I go into a lot more depth in my book on that but um I would encourage your readers to get a copy of

1:40:56

my book I don't get a lot of royalties out of this so it's not like making a bunch of money off of this but yeah

1:41:02

it'll help men and women in in a variety of ways to um to really

1:41:08

see what's going on yeah to make to make feelings your your highest Authority when feelings are are

1:41:15

subject to facts and also to the word of God that's the Sovereign Authority in

1:41:20

the room right now exactly and so I think that the last thing I want to ask is what has it been like for you in the

1:41:28

eight years since you wrote the book because I mean it was a it's a big deal to step out on these topics today and

1:41:34

you were out front on them eight years ago and as you've written the book you've watched the societal condition get worse around these very issues and

1:41:42

meanwhile again like a voice crying out in the wilderness you've been talking about this on on the front lines in a way I haven't found anyone else really

1:41:49

talking about so what's it been like for you to get to this point and what's happening for you now

1:41:55

well it's it's been a very slow thing really that um I've had men

1:42:02

over the years over the eight years since the book that have contacted me and they they always find me and they

1:42:08

say okay we want to talk with you but until about

1:42:13

a few months ago it's really been kind of quiet not really a lot of attention not really a lot of

1:42:20

um uh people that are interested to talk about it

1:42:25

until the last few months and now it's like wow it's just off the charts it's a whole it's a whole other ministry that's

1:42:31

developing now because of this yeah I've got a group of men that were

1:42:37

were strategizing and praying God what what can we do what what do we do because there's a lot of men out there

1:42:43

that that need this help and they're coming out of the woodwork and

1:42:48

um I mean literally I'm sure after this podcast I'm going to get flooded with more emails and phone calls too I hope

1:42:54

so and you know and part of me goes oh no but also part of me goes good

1:43:01

you know what I say to the men that join our online group I said I'm sorry that you're here but we're glad to help you

1:43:07

that's kind of been our motto I'm really sorry that you're here because I know what you're going through

1:43:12

but I'm glad we can help you and um we haven't gotten too much opposition

1:43:19

yet I know it's coming I know it will come eventually

1:43:25

probably because nobody knows who I am you know but I keep doing podcasts people are going to know who I am and

1:43:30

it's like okay now I am going to get you know attacks and things like that but again ultimately we go we have to

1:43:38

honor God we have to say Lord what do you want to do how can we be a part of

1:43:44

advancing your kingdom not my kingdom but yours um I'm not getting rich off of this I'm

1:43:51

not getting Financial um blessings off of this it's it's simply

1:43:58

to say let's be faithful to the word of God and that's all that I want I just

1:44:05

want the church to be honoring and glorifying the Lord and helping these

1:44:12

suffering men so um so it's been good it's it's been good

1:44:17

to see so many men getting getting help but I need help

1:44:22

with this too well I can't do it myself yeah that's why I'm glad to have these men

1:44:30

that I've been working with some of these men I've been working with them for several years and they're really

1:44:35

growing and changing in wonderful ways some of the men are new on this journey it's like man they're right in the

1:44:41

middle of it right now like some of the men that we've that you and I know and um so every man's in a different

1:44:48

different situation different place these are young men they're men in their 20s and 30s these are older men men in

1:44:55

their 60s and 70s it's not any one segment of society some of these are

1:45:01

very wealthy men some of these are men that can barely pay their bills it's not that there's nothing that's

1:45:08

common in this except that they're the gentle kind compassionate

1:45:14

sweet men not not wimpy men but men that

1:45:19

are um they're willing to go along they're not men that are insisting on

1:45:26

their way but eventually with the reviling wife you know it becomes why do you keep

1:45:34

dictating to me wife why do you think that that's your role to just insist on

1:45:40

things being your way so we get right back to Genesis 3 16 again

1:45:45

her desire is contrary to the husband so yeah God's curses are legit they are

1:45:52

yeah well thank you so much thank you so much this has been wonderful conversation and

1:45:59

I I sincerely hope and pray that this blesses many men and women listening and that they pick up your book I'll link it

1:46:05

in in the show notes and and uh be talking about it as well in the introduction you've already so

1:46:10

graciously provided your email address and phone number and website I don't know if there's other places you want to

1:46:16

send men if you have a YouTube channel or social media or anything like that or how people can donate to support your

1:46:22

ministry how would you how would you like people to be able to to support you and help you today

1:46:27

yes you know I'm I'm not really into social media very much at all yeah but

1:46:33

um you know which is probably a good thing in some ways but yes but if people

1:46:38

wish to donate to the ministry you can go to our website compassionatecounselors.com and you can

1:46:43

donate right there and that would be that would be very kind if people would

1:46:48

would do that just so we can continue doing the work that we're doing and and like I said we're going to need more

1:46:54

help and we are in the process of developing a whole another Ministry that is

1:47:00

connected to compassionate counselors you know they don't even have a name for it yet but it's something like the reviling wives Ministry to help these

1:47:07

men so um so thank you thank you for having me on well it's been great to get to

1:47:13

know you and you're a fellow Phoenician and a lover of God and lover of man and and thank

1:47:19

you thank you for the good work that you're doing