0:00

nothing has us feel safe from an instinctual vibration

0:08

able to think thoughts and not others the whole capacities that come from

0:13

feeling truly safe nothing contributes to that the same way as one man that you

0:21

know is for you [Music]

0:30

hello and welcome to the Renaissance of men podcast my name is Will Spencer my guest this week is a speaker thought

0:36

leader and best-selling author of the keys to the kingdom and the Queen's code Allison Armstrong in 2018 as I was

0:44

discovering that the men's movement was much bigger than I realized reading Donovan and tomasi and listening to

0:50

Mickler and Peterson I also discovered Allison's books and I saw myself reflected in them to a degree that I

0:57

still find striking it's quite a thing to realize that a woman has just as many good things to say about men as men do

1:03

and perhaps even more but that's the Allison Armstrong and she's quite a thing too and now almost nine years

1:09

after publishing the Queen's code in print she's finally released it in audiobook version and not a moment too

1:15

soon because whether or not people know to call it that the great reconciliation is happening and the Queen's code

1:21

audiobook is here to help us hear and most importantly feel the ways we could be as men and women together in our our

1:28

conversation Allison and I discussed her journey to write and record the Queen's code the difference between needing

1:35

versus being needy how Allison used to treat men at parties long before she wrote the Queen's code the importance of

1:41

discovering our ultimatums or the things in relationship we're not willing to live without why we should all go a bit

1:47

easier on the nice guys and finally stories about her relationship with the man in her life Dan who even shows up at

1:54

the very end to say hi if you enjoy the Renaissance of men podcast thank you don't forget to hit that like button and

2:01

subscribe and share this episode so we can reach more men and women so please join me in welcoming this week's guest

2:06

on the Renaissance of men podcast the best-selling author and voice over artist of the Queen's code my friend

2:12

Allison Armstrong hey Alice and welcome back to the podcast thank you I'm so glad to

2:20

glad to be well I want to say congratulations you are now uh Far and Away my number one podcast of all time

2:25

first first podcast across 5 000 downloads which is pretty incredible when you think about it was like four

2:31

four hours long so it's really cool to see like they'll

2:37

just spike out of nowhere like hundreds of downloads in a month like someone must share it somewhere it's it's really

2:42

cool to see that just how how long the legs have been for that conversation wow well I I mention you a lot as well

2:51

so I don't know if people go looking at that point but um we have extraordinary conversations ever

2:58

since the first run for the Renaissance of men that's right that's right it seems to be a habit

3:07

well congratulations also on the release of the Queen's code audiobook which I finished listening to and you know as I

3:13

mentioned I've read the print the Kindle version I read the book a couple times but hearing it read in your voice

3:22

Blended a whole new shade of meaning to some of the interactions between the

3:27

characters your characterizations of them and and the meaning behind the words to really

3:33

um it brought it to life in a very different way from your imagination rather than just me imposing my

3:38

imagination on it and both are equally valid um so what was that process like for you recording the audiobook

3:48

it was it was intense it was emotional as you can hear my voice sometimes it

3:54

was yeah um there are a couple of things that were

4:01

on it like how did that happen but it goes back to

4:08

um as you know I started studying men in 1991. right right

4:15

um the the scene in the first chapter of keys of the Queen's Community actually

4:20

happened but the scene in the in the first chapter the things but it it happened to

4:26

me my my colleague co-worker kind of friend was called a bug phone and

4:34

um and I had the division that Kimberly is expressing and and then as I realized

4:43

you know I oh my gosh I'm really a friend from I'm a very successful

4:48

I prided myself in the way I thought of it as getting men to show their true

4:56

colors yeah um within like 10 days

5:01

yeah industrial frog farmer oh my gosh I did not want to fall in love again and

5:09

um and so I you know I had come to the conclusion that men are cons and

5:15

um and I want to reveal a con before I fell for it and it

5:22

it didn't include any that I had anything to do with the version of every man I was getting I thought that was the

5:29

real notion which I now equate to kicking a dog and then the dog when it

5:35

bites you or it runs away or it runs away and invites you and bites you and then runs away all those versions can

5:42

happen and um but this question popped into my head as I was sitting there

5:47

confronting it and the question was what if men are responding to women and and you know I've talked about that

5:54

question right and it's worth listening to those conversations in the in your in the podcast but when we did before

6:01

but that's really the beginning of a lot of strangeness that I'm only now coming to

6:08

terms with strangeness strangeness like that question popped into my head

6:16

where did that question come from that's always a question right yes yes and

6:22

that's what I've been delving into and and including other questions that have

6:31

guided my research that I thought I thought of that

6:36

question maybe the question thought of you

6:41

could be yes yes and but in this in the story of the Queen's code other strangeness I could never I never

6:49

questioned like these questions popping in my head what am I responding to women and then when Greg did something that

6:56

was just outrageous to me the question what if there's a good reason for that

7:01

um which led to all my research on that everybody everybody man or woman only

7:08

ever does what's important to them yeah ever and and to all the things we

7:15

think we should do that we haven't done they just haven't risen to the level of importance right and and that happened

7:22

because Greg you know knocked over a blender of mine left it broken on the floor

7:27

single Focus too extreme he was trying to get he was trying to catching that plane and um okay I get it yeah and then

7:36

what if no one's misbehaving including you right there's another one that popped in and then a few years ago

7:43

just right out of my mouth honor yourself first or always lost

7:48

and so these kinds of things that popped in right and

7:54

um so that's where my research began right what if men are responding to women and within

8:01

um that was 1981 within a year of that I had

8:07

um been asked to stop castrating men literally put that way um and had done had done so

8:15

um seeing what happens when we don't interact with men by handling their

8:21

power and then we'll talk um I had met Greg I my not yet husband

8:26

but soon to be um and I come to the conclusion that the

8:32

things that I learned in that year had to do shift that I I had to write a book

8:38

I have to put this in a book um but I

8:44

I talked to somebody about it and he told me how to tell whether I had enough material for a book and um if you have

8:50

more than 10 chapter titles you can do a book and I did definitely a

8:57

year in and it was shortly after that that I was

9:03

um meeting Greg's family and talking to his

9:09

um his sister of mine I could tell that her marriage was in trouble I've been watching the way they're interacting I

9:15

was watching you she talked about him I could tell like discussing he's the kingdom I could tell if he had become a

9:22

king and she hadn't caught up with that his needs were very different than the

9:28

20 years that they had been to raised a family together and she was an Adaptive and this this was gonna this was having

9:36

a huge effect and it could get worse and I I tried to tell her about it I tried

9:41

to tell her about the stages of development and she basically wasn't listening she

9:47

just didn't care and then I switched over to telling her story

9:52

and it's just this funny little story a friend of mine and I made up um called The Princess and the swamp rat

9:58

[Laughter] all right all right let's see where this

10:06

goes let's go back dude if you wanted to hear the story of The Princess and the song but I'll tell you the story but all of a

10:13

sudden I kind of do I all of a sudden I had a complete attention and and we were shopping together and

10:19

you know girls can talk and shop and but now she's paying attention and then her husband comes to pick us up give us a

10:25

ride back to the family reunion and and she's like sketch Allison's telling me the story let her finish and that's when

10:34

I got it oh how whatever this book is it needs to be a stolen

10:41

and oh okay yeah that's where it came from this is this has got to be a story

10:46

because we can hear things when we're not in the hot seat right when someone's saying you you are

10:53

doing this and don't do this this or this it's very hard to learn it's very hard to let our guards down it's very

11:00

hard to let our point of view be altered so

11:05

actually that the the next day we were driving home

11:10

and I was writing like the story started showing up and I was writing it

11:16

literally on a shopping list a brown paper shopping list oh wow it was just

11:23

coming out and I was writing writing writing and as I did that which was ended up just being the first couple of

11:29

chapters I don't even not even chapter like paragraphs and I don't even know where they ended up because what happened when I came to write the book

11:36

but it became obvious as I was doing that that I didn't know how to read it

11:41

but I already used what I learned about men against men that hurt me badly once

11:48

I found out how you really motivated Kryptonite and and that I

11:55

I needed to write a book that at that time I thought it was just for

12:01

women I didn't know well how much it would affect me and

12:06

I needed to write it and confirm oh my gosh the whole other thing we could talk

12:12

about but it yeah I'm sure we will since you since you listened to it but it read it in and listened to it and

12:18

so as I I realized that I needed to know more I needed to know more about

12:24

one what triggered women to masturbate nothing and

12:30

and to how they did it all the different ways that they did it and three and

12:36

maybe most importantly how they Justified yep yep

12:43

I needed to know a whole lot more about that and then fourth what are you doing

12:48

today right since the masculation comes from fear and frustration

12:53

what are you doing instead how do women emasculate men because they think that's

12:59

the only way to get what they need and even though it doesn't work they don't have an alternative so I had to figure

13:06

out all four of those things and that's when I told my best friend

13:12

um I think I need to do a workshop in order to learn how to teach this so that

13:21

I can write the book and

13:27

so we we did that starting in January of 1995. I didn't know it would take

13:35

almost 15 years of doing those workshops before one evening I knew I knew how to

13:43

write the book like like I I'd gotten enough of all those four things in all

13:48

these different expressions from thousands of women and contributions of

13:54

hundreds of men I knew I finally knew how to write it and so I wrote a book I

14:00

wrote a book proposal right chapter by chapter and this will be about this and that'll be about that and then we you

14:07

know went me and my agent went to New York and we had a bidding you know for

14:12

the for the publication of the book and that's very very exciting to talk about it but it does for your ego because of

14:17

bidding on your book and and you know and I chose the editor that

14:23

I loved the most about the most resonance with and and then sat down

14:29

to write the book and then that's when it got really strange which had happened

14:35

before she's the kingdom but I I didn't trust it to happen again

14:40

and that was you know I sat down to write and it literally occurs like it's

14:46

it's like this big but this big and it's right here and a

14:52

movie screen opened and a movie started playing and I started typing

14:59

and I didn't know the word channeling then and I still don't trust that word

15:04

it seems weird yeah to me and I what the heck is that I just know that

15:10

[Music] that no one can write a 96 000 word book

15:16

in three weeks it's it's pretty fast yeah and I oh I didn't read it I just

15:24

watched the movie and typed as fast as I could and it it was weird it was like trying to write a screenplay from a

15:32

movie right so then backwards backwards yeah just trying to describe what I was

15:40

seeing like like how do you describe this

15:45

how do you know you describe that yeah and and yeah and then it was it was also

15:53

really you know he's the kingdom which was what

15:59

I knew I could write at the time years before like 15 years ago a lot of many

16:04

years before 2003 I that ran as a movie too and that's

16:10

like 42 000 words and it I it all got typed up in like eight dates but I I

16:17

kind of forgot how weird it was never

16:22

what I know this is well I'm coming more to terms with the

16:29

strangeness of my life and because you know became stranger um when my husband died and and so

16:39

it's actually been um stunning and you had asked what it was like to do the audiobook

16:46

so I've done three book clubs I think before that two or three book clubs at

16:51

The Shift Network which meant I re-read the book to prepare for every session

16:57

every chapter with with the participants and even reading the book was there kept

17:05

being things that surprised me I didn't know that was taught in this book I didn't know we did that in this book I

17:12

didn't I don't remember that happening and and then when I was recording the

17:18

audiobook two things one was it was

17:24

so much more intense like like I just I I just

17:32

conveying the story reading the story consistent with how I watched it right

17:40

um I realized oh my gosh the emotion the the pain The Joy the struggle like

17:49

everything is so much more intense in me reading the story to to everybody

17:57

and and I was like matching the movie that I

18:02

watched right and the movie was Vivid for me as I was reading it even though

18:08

every part I was reading I didn't remember was in there right and and when I was typing up the

18:17

movie like people have asked me so how did you pick these eight characters I did it no

18:24

why did you have the story evolved like this I did it couldn't tell you

18:31

I did it I transcribed the moon I did all the research I mean I did everything

18:39

in in the Queen's code is validated by real life research that

18:45

I did is it anything in there that is outrageous outlandish Unthinkable no

18:51

it's all based on real research and the characters in the story

18:59

are just themselves and which was then what happened that was really now this

19:06

is odd upon Odd as I was um as I was doing the audio recording and

19:13

sometimes I just have to stop because I was overwhelmed with emotion and there

19:19

was one particular time that I just I I lost it do you know

19:26

um oh my gosh um just so you're not distracted by

19:33

wondering uh it's the part when Bert confronts Claudia about how exhausted

19:41

teaching it is for her and what you see him happening to her and she as he's

19:49

making he wants to make a deal as he's as he's making a deal with her

19:58

um and telling her what she she needs and what it would provide um at the end of that you might remember

20:05

he says I'm not done meeting you you know remember that yeah

20:13

I I don't know how long it took and how many times I had to retake that to get through it because I didn't know that

20:20

that was in the Queen's code and that was what I was literally screaming at

20:27

Greg while I was trying to bring him back from the heart

20:35

if I was doing my version of superior that's watched on TV what it didn't

20:41

matter if I could have done it right it was a triple explosion in his chest but that's what I was yelling at him I'm not

20:47

done anything yet I just reading that in a book oh oh my

20:54

gosh and so that wasn't even another strange part

21:01

I wanted to tell you the other Strange point was and I don't know how this happens how

21:07

does a movie change so as I was recording the audiobook

21:14

you know this about me right I have this thing about truth right and Truth has a

21:20

Inlet they can't authenticity has a has a feel to it and

21:27

um what I call Old brain when someone's not present when someone's not present

21:33

and they're just speaking rotely about something they're used to speaking about or words that don't really mean anything

21:41

to them anymore they don't stand out it has this quality I call I call Old brain it's kind of it's fake okay and I can

21:49

hear it and people aren't learned right when they're when they're an old brain they're not learning who needs all that

21:54

new girlfriend I see I see yeah so so I just I just had this feel first up and

22:02

it took a long time for me to figure out that it only happened when

22:07

Claudia was speaking and I had to retake Claudius parts

22:16

um it ended up taking usually four times I would have to redo it before it had

22:24

the resonance of what she meant yep that makes sense yeah you live in that material well what

22:32

was strange was that I would do it the way that I heard it

22:38

the way that I heard it when I first transcribed the book I would say it that way and it wouldn't be right and I'd say

22:46

it again and so on here I'll say it again and always when it was finally right Claudia had changed in the 10

22:55

years since I watched the movie Claudia changed she was both more

23:01

intense more playful and more compassionate

23:06

then then the person I watched in a movie

23:13

how does that how does that happen but but I kept doing it until it felt

23:21

right and and it was delightful to me to see what had happened to her

23:28

some people might say that's also happened to me that was going to be my question

23:33

well that's another thing that's odd about the Queen's code is you know when I started studying men I

23:41

was Melissa I I was that awful

23:48

incomprehensible it right was that hurt I was that bitter I

23:54

was that vengeful and antagonistic I I was

24:00

Melissa and then and then I became Kimberly when I found out I was a frog

24:05

farmer and got curious right um and Karen I never really was Karen I

24:13

just taught a lot of kittens right um but then here here I was reading this

24:20

last year and I had become more cloudier

24:26

got it 30 years of teaching this material and the vastness right because

24:32

I've never stopped researching um

24:38

so I just kept thinking as I was recording

24:43

it that I I wanted it just kept I just kept hearing I want to be there for people I want to be there for people and

24:51

because how intense it is and how quickly you get to chapter three [Laughter]

24:58

I had months before I got to chapter three in my life when I was studying

25:04

yes yes yeah folks are having like four hours of

25:11

listening to the book before they get to chapter three Inner Path to completely

25:19

alter the way that they're interacting with themselves and others and and I

25:25

just kept thinking I got I gotta do that for them I want to be there for them and I um I just started last week the second

25:33

time I caught your Quince card Journey because everyone has a different Journey now I'm looking forward to hearing about

25:38

yours and everyone's is different and I just wanted to be there to answer their

25:45

questions right just like like Karen and Kimberly got to ask all their questions before

25:51

they took the big the laying down the sword I right yeah I wanted my people to get to do

25:59

that and I did it over the summer and I just started doing it for the second time because it's it's such an amazing

26:05

thing to do and and I'm I'm still learning from the klinska that's what

26:13

that's another strange thing yeah me too me too your third time my third time

26:23

so tell me about it my Queen's code Journey follow-up question yeah yeah and before we do that is there a do

26:30

you have a fan in there or something like that oh let me fix that let me okay okay good no problem sorry about that

26:37

that's okay that's believe me I've had way worse situations to work with in

26:43

podcasts before so this was this was an easy fix Okay so

26:48

um you know my you asked about my Queen's code journey and yeah there's a couple there's a

26:55

couple things I want to point out before I answer that question first is that

27:00

um you started writing and thinking about writing about about men in the 90s now most people who are in what we call

27:08

the Men's movement now didn't start doing that until like 2005 2010 I mean

27:14

you had guys like Robert Bly and Warren Farrell and and uh Douglas uh uh Douglas

27:20

Wilson and and Robert Moore Douglas Gillette sorry um doing it in the early 90s but you

27:26

started as far back as then and I don't know that that's appreciated enough that you've been doing this longer than most

27:32

men have been doing it which I think is is pretty remarkable so that you've had 30 or so years to develop which I think

27:38

is what gives your work the power that it does and um and it's so strange that you've been doing it for so long but you

27:45

go talk to men about like no no I've never heard of Allison Armstrong but then there's all these other people over here who have so you know that's always

27:51

very cool and then I think the other thing is that you know the The Queen's code audiobook

27:57

is what almost 11 hours long just over 10 hours long yeah right and so you're talking about

28:03

multiple takes I mean I can imagine it must have taken you 40 hours or so probably to try and record it I mean at

28:10

least you know if you're trying Claudia over and over again and Claudia talks a lot in the book as it turns out

28:17

um I don't know I'd have to look at the bill from the sound engineer

28:24

I just know that there were there are whole parts that I didn't have to do multiple things

28:31

got it it was usually just climbing okay um and

28:39

[Music] yeah it it it probably I'm trying to

28:46

think how many weekends do you spend doing that there's probably about 20 hours of me recording but then we I had

28:53

multiple people listened and um and and went back and did retakes and

29:02

things to um and just things that like squeaky chairs there's no such thing as I'm not

29:09

screened here no such thing even in a professional Sound Studio yes yeah so so

29:17

there were there are a lot of people who participated in the quality of it and

29:22

you know had them um the last one had literally Bose

29:28

headphones on and she was I was having her listen for anything that would

29:34

distract people from The Experience they were in happened to them right

29:41

had someone munching next to you with some popcorn in a movie right right I for some reason I guess I

29:48

had pictured you recording it at home but if you actually went into an audio like a professional studio that makes

29:54

sense that makes sense too that must have been a very different experience actually because I could picture you at

30:00

home in in your home studio or something like that recording it privately but to be in a professional studio recording

30:06

that stuff in front of other people must have been that must have been an experience I have to ask about that

30:13

because I just pictured you doing it alone and being able to have your own kind of experience re-encountering and

30:18

trying to embody some of the things the characters are saying and the story itself but it was actually a shared

30:24

experience in a way like that must have been that must have been a whole other thing

30:29

well it it habits its moments um his name is Steve Boynton and

30:36

um Dan found him for me he did a great job the audio sounds incredible yeah

30:42

thank you he he was amazing I never met him before scheduling to do this

30:50

um it's actually what had me end up moving one of the things that the impetus for moving the steamboat oh was

30:58

I already needed to be here for periods of time to do the recording and um and

31:05

so I moved here in the middle of it based on other things and uh

31:10

and so he was he was someone who didn't know me he didn't know my work or

31:16

anything about it um he didn't even really follow along in

31:21

this story um in the beginning she was just being technical right and and it wasn't until

31:30

later on um one of the times that that the emotion

31:38

um came through I think it was Kimberly's emotion that came through and I and I said I said I I think I need to

31:46

do that again and and he actually said it sounded right like what happened

31:53

but but then something would happen it was very much further along in the bucket and he's like I don't think you

32:01

need to it fits and search the way he listened to change that's great

32:06

um but he was present for I mean there literally were times I just broke down and silent and and he just he's waiting

32:15

until I recovered myself um

32:27

part of what would have me end up be emotional will is that

32:33

is that however they do it um those the characters those people

32:40

exist and um when I was transcribing to the

32:47

kingdom like one morning I I woke up and

32:53

um I think you you you're right he's the Kingdom right or did you listen to it I read that first okay good yeah I like it

33:00

for people to read it first but they don't they don't have to and um so that was also a movie right and I

33:07

didn't decide on those four characters and and then for them those four to go

33:13

on and become eight but when I was writing he's the kingdom like I woke up one morning and I knew

33:21

that today was the day that Karen was going to see the table right the table

33:27

okay this table keeps getting referred to right yeah and um

33:32

and I just knew there was something special about this table but I didn't know what it was because

33:38

because I'm just transcribing the movie and I woke up that morning I thought oh

33:44

Karen's gonna see the table today and I said out loud do you think you should show it to me

33:51

and then boom I saw the tape right and and just

33:58

oh my gosh right I didn't see Kimberly's chair so Kimberly saw hurt you oh and

34:07

and tell her and Karen and Bert were standing in front of the chair and she was asking him about it right and why he

34:12

did it I didn't know any of that and but what happened

34:20

what happens is is that I can check in with them so I'm about in the first trimester

34:29

pregnant with the sequel movement and

34:35

um and it's tempting for me to see if I can only do it in an

34:40

audiobook instead of a pre-book because now I know how different

34:47

my conveyance of this story is from someone reading it to themselves and

34:54

um this beautiful woman in South Africa her name is Candice um

34:59

what she expressed to me and talking about having read the Queen's bed which she did a few years ago and then

35:05

listening to it she said and it was so shocking to me I can't

35:11

quote her accurately I need to go back and listen to it but it was to the effect of she said Allison I realized

35:17

that I didn't read the men's parts

35:24

to myself the way that you do because of my prejudice against men that

35:33

they would never be that I think she said that sincere or that

35:40

emotion and I and that's when I realized oh my

35:46

gosh everyone who's read the Queen's code since it was published in 2012

35:52

right everyone which is I don't somewhere over a hundred

35:58

thousand people have read it to themselves we don't know the exact number because right when we originally

36:05

printed it we made it possible for people to download it and print out as many copies as they want

36:12

oops I mean cool but oops it wasn't a Hoops I did it on purpose oh okay okay

36:18

yeah I you know I've expressed it as uh you know my goal is to be those

36:24

pirated author what you wish for well

36:31

I I am and people actually I'll say how did you how did you find out about me and they'll be like I'm sorry

36:39

my friend made a copy of the NSYNC CD and gave it to me okay it's cool

36:48

originally published please to the kingdom we people um people got a PDF

36:55

and it came with a letter that said um well we hope you'll let your friends

37:01

and family buy their own copy of Tuesday Kingdom if you just can't help it I

37:07

forgive you in advance I just would say

37:16

and I don't know how many people did that but I'm a messenger right so get the message

37:22

out and people passing secret notes so sometimes one of the best ways to do it and

37:29

anyhow my point was where I started out with is I can I can check in I can check

37:35

in with the storm and it's like they give me movie trailers

37:42

of the of what's to come oh

37:47

there we go [Laughter] yes yes and so I knew before recording

37:55

the audiobook last year I knew that the next book starts a year after the

38:02

Queen's code minutes it's it's been it's been a year and and

38:09

I know it starts with the characters reflecting back on all that happened for

38:14

them in that year and how excited they are now that they the the lessons

38:22

um yeah so there's things that I know are going to happen that colored me

38:30

recording the audio oh sort of like you were foreshadowing almost in a way well I just knew but

38:38

when I originally transcribed it I didn't know that that was going to

38:43

happen now I know things that are going to happen that I didn't know and it changed

38:51

um yeah well I think it's you asked me about my Queen's code journey and I'm actually

38:57

really enjoying hearing about your Queen's code Journey right because most

39:02

people don't really have well I can't say that but you know it's a book your books profoundly impacted me

39:10

and um and I want to talk about that in a second but it's really amazing to hear the way that your own books have

39:16

impacted you and and I think that's the thing that really came through in listening to the

39:23

audiobook was that I know you and we've spent a lot of time talking and I could listen into the audiobook and I could I

39:30

could hear inflections in your voice and the way that you would say things I was like okay I bet that was a pretty meaningful kind of moment or hear you

39:38

smiling in some ways and it was like okay and so so I got a hint of it but to

39:43

hear the way that it's evolved for you over 30 or so years since your initial

39:48

being called a frog farmer and you told me that that was a real story and and

39:54

um the story about the snap shirts right right

40:00

yeah yeah okay so can you tell can you tell that story real quick because I

40:06

think it really it's like a point A to point B C D kind of thing where it's

40:12

like to imagine to know you now and to read the ways that you write and think

40:17

and teach about men and and to read the way that you to hear you tell the story of the way that you were yeah it's one

40:25

of those things like how does a person get from there to from from point A to point B so if you tell the snapshot

40:31

story because I think I think it'll really impact a lot of people to hear that

40:36

um oh boy well I don't know if I gave you this

40:41

background when I told it to them um

40:47

so I always 17 and by then I'd already

40:53

concluded that men are bigger and stronger and they'll hurt them

41:01

and so I'd already unconsciously taken up

41:09

disempowerment and and my

41:15

Forte if you will um

41:20

[Laughter] Forte and disempowering Men exactly so

41:28

if I forte in this empowering men was keeping men off balance

41:35

hmm so um yeah it can feel yourself into that's

41:42

a certain way of being disempowered so it wasn't it was rarely a direct hit

41:49

it was just a sense that if I could tell when a man was on tilt like tilt like

41:54

just tilted on one foot again couldn't attack I felt safe when he couldn't

42:01

get his bearings when he couldn't to piss back together that's when I felt

42:07

safe and so the way that it manifested in

42:16

1978 was going to parties and I um I had

42:23

been challenged uh by a friend to not drink

42:28

and um and so I wasn't I I was at a I mean

42:33

people 17 year old shouldn't be drinking anyway but never mind that

42:38

so I so I wasn't drinking and I would do it even when I was drinking I I so I

42:45

carried I had a bottle of beer I filled it with water but I had a bottle of beer because I was tired of people asking me

42:51

why I wasn't drinking and um and it was the era of you know of

42:59

Urban Cowboy and snap shirts and actually wearing I'm

43:05

wearing one I'm wearing one I didn't plan this

43:11

didn't plan it yeah and I yeah and I had a particular um

43:18

disdain if you will for athletes um to me they're in the most full of

43:25

themselves the most like mean and inconsiderate and and so they were like

43:32

they were my Target and um and I think at that particular party

43:39

I think I got at least three like a couple of swimmers you know oh man

43:45

[Laughter] and I as you know I I would walk up to

43:52

them and they'd have a beer in their hand and I'd ask them could they please hold my beer and they would go okay and

43:58

they'd reach out take my beer now they have both hands full and I would just reach out and go

44:04

and snap all the snaps on their shirt and I actually was shocked the first

44:11

time it had been because these were it might be these were peacocks right Easter yeah these were

44:18

these young men who walked around like I'm all that and so when I you know

44:25

ripped open their shirt revealing their pecs and abs that they worked so hard on I expected them to be I thought they'd

44:33

be cool about it right but when they weren't when instead they went like this

44:39

two beers in the beers foaming out trying to conceal themselves

44:46

um yeah I thought it was hilarious and and I felt safe and I felt like I put these

44:54

I'll spare the word I had a bad word for them I yeah I put

45:00

them in their place and I just thought that I said after that and go on with what I was doing and

45:07

it's funny you asked me to tell it to you well because because I mean knowing what I know now and how

45:17

how much that um that how much the posture right how

45:22

much the posture that I interpreted as such egotism

45:29

um is really more the posture of a warrior on guard

45:34

and part of being on guard is to reveal nothing that could be used

45:40

against you and and women don't know that if you

45:48

share something meaningful to you with us and we share it with other people

45:54

that we have just revealed you um and that's a betrayal for a man yeah

46:01

and so yeah so for me to do that with their shirt and reveal them when they

46:09

weren't in that state because literally they were helping me in that moment would you hold this for me sure

46:16

right I like cut the best part of them and then used it against them and I I

46:23

didn't know any of that [Music] it's pretty incredible to think that

46:28

that's where you started doing that because you know I can imagine that there are a lot of women

46:34

who keep men off balance or who don't respect men or like men or have many

46:41

negative beliefs about them about men but would never go so far as to do something like that like to actively

46:48

like it's one thing to say something at a man like like um you know kind of you know to shame a man like in a checkout

46:54

line or something like that Supermarket or wherever it shows up right it's something else entirely to walk up to a

47:00

man and actually rip his shirt open it's a snap shirt so you're not ruining a shirt right but like there's another

47:05

thing to actually physically interact with a man and that way to sort of cross that boundary like that's a degree of

47:11

like I can't even fathom that happening now again it's at a party and stuff like

47:17

that and you know it's it's a kind of a it's kind of a different kind of environment than just doing it you know at the at the mall or something like

47:23

that like hey buddy you know very different but still that that you were that forward about it and and almost

47:30

Unapologetic and at the time Unapologetic right

47:37

and even after the third time you did it he stopped doing it but after the third time was there any feelings of remorse

47:43

like maybe I shouldn't have done that or was like yeah I do this to guys for fun

47:48

oh that was just three times at that point

47:54

you said what

48:05

I'm in a minute with that

48:13

um I mean I I have my first crush on a boy

48:21

when I was seven okay and

48:32

probably even younger my first like a real Crush would have been with my with my big brother you don't think of it as

48:38

a crush but you know my brother was 15 months older than me and I just wanted to be with him

48:44

I didn't I just wanted to follow around with the news there's this amazing space about him

48:51

even as a child I just even though he sometimes it was so cool to me I just

48:57

would always go back to wanting to follow him around and and you know I

49:02

wanted to play with Chris and um

49:08

and my you know my father my father adored me he wasn't around much

49:15

um but when he was he was he was so kind

49:21

you know like there are things I wanted to do like I wanted to learn cursive

49:26

and at school they said I wasn't old enough to learn cursor they wouldn't teach me

49:32

and so my dad sat down and taught me cursing

49:38

and um I think I I mean I just I just always

49:45

loved men I always loved boys I always would rather be with boys and with girls

49:53

and and I always had one girlfriend one best girlfriend

49:59

um but I I'd rather play with the boys you guys to wave

50:05

sometimes and um

50:10

but that feeling that way made me really

50:16

vulnerable and and also if you think of the time when I grew up right I was born in 1960

50:24

so I was becoming right so I was becoming a

50:32

a young woman at a time when when the old rules and stereotypes which

50:41

my mother was part of right a homemaker and uh and women's Liberation and

50:51

Anything You Can Do I Can Do Better which my mom danced around and sung in the kitchen

50:57

and uh the messages right to the message of

51:03

Barbie dolls and you can run a truck through her thighs so

51:11

yeah right yeah yeah introduce thigh gap to women and had us believe we're

51:17

supposed to have that and and and just this this message from my

51:24

mother who was so pissed at my father for not giving her the fairy tale life

51:30

she thought she was signing up for and her own

51:36

intellect that didn't

51:43

how women were thought of at the time do you know didn't have a full expression so she mostly hid it and was conniving

51:52

and and this this message that that really

51:58

as a woman you have to have a man who's your man where's your man you

52:06

don't what you don't have a man you've got to have a man Barbie's gotta

52:11

have a Ken and where's Skipper's boyfriend

52:16

who's skipper Skipper's by his little sister oh okay

52:22

Barbie had a Ken blonde Ken brunette Ken but she could pick her Ken before we had

52:30

to have a kitten so you have to have a man but don't ever need him

52:41

yes and make sure he knows you don't mean to him

52:48

yeah mission accomplished yes yes and but

52:55

the the the conflict right you gotta have one but never need him

53:01

and and then as I started studying then finding out and then would just throw it

53:08

they they would just throw the comment off they didn't know it was earth-shattering

53:14

to say something like well she didn't need it she didn't need me so I but for

53:20

someone who did it in direct conflict with what I was

53:26

taught and what so many women to the Sea are proving I think think that the less

53:32

I need you the more attractive I will be to you um

53:37

exactly so we we have my friend who use this works conflate we

53:45

have completed meeting and needy oh that's great yes that's great so

53:54

women are terrified of being perceived as needed being perceived as weak and

54:01

needy and so instead of addressing that like

54:07

we started asking men what what does meeting mean to you

54:16

and one man the way one man put it was maybe is when you can't handle the basic

54:24

components of life yes

54:29

yeah and that's completely different than never

54:36

needing something from another human being never needing help for example right or and it's the source

54:45

of as gets talked about in the Queen's code the source of women not asking for

54:51

help in a way that's dignified supportive empowering

54:57

um other people can win at providing it right because we don't ever want to need help we don't ask for help

55:03

in a timely way or with respect and then we end up needing to be saved because

55:11

we've got to know our head and then we're pissed at the lecture saving comes with which the queen codes illuminate

55:17

why the lecture um and and it just ends up

55:24

it just ends up making it worse right getting a lecture for needing to

55:29

be saved has us it reaffirms never needed me because they'll be attached

55:37

in instead of understanding really how huge the difference is and what it means

55:42

to a man who's instinctually always

55:47

exercising discipline about a limited amount of time and money and energy and

55:52

that is really invested in his plans and something that he's got enough to his

55:59

plan in order to keep someone who cares about from a big consequence

56:04

that yeah that's going to come with a lecture yes ask me sooner I could have planned

56:10

on this and I would have been happy to provide I didn't know any of that

56:15

sure I mean you know but but as Claudia illustrates in the Queen's code that

56:20

that inheritance and I think that's the that's the power of of Claudia as a

56:26

character is that she's talking about nine generations of inheritance about how men work that got lost in Myra's

56:34

generation who I assume is the baby boomer generation right that's sort of around that time roughly right like in

56:40

that in that you know she's probably born or born around the same time as you are somewhere somewhere in that range

56:45

right that there's this all this wisdom nine Generations is what like a couple hundred years 300 years maybe of

56:51

information about men it's even more than that's it Generations used to be measured in 25 years and Claudius

56:58

family's been at it for 500 years 500 years okay so here's foreign

57:05

so here's 500 years of knowledge about how men work that is the entire inheritance is just discarded by her

57:12

daughter like whatever I don't have any need or want for it and so it's not like

57:17

Allison Armstrong is Conjuring this stuff up out of nowhere like you've spent centuries yourself studying men

57:23

and women and you figured it out it's like no this inheritance this knowledge about men was there it was understood

57:28

how women can relate to men and how men can relate to women how men can relate to themselves that's a whole other thing

57:34

and it was just thrown out it was just thrown out in favor of um

57:39

I like how you said needing versus needy I like that distinction the one that I

57:45

that I talk a lot about is um equality versus sameness like that's another

57:51

that's another thing that gets conflated and then and then there's also um strong and independent versus soft

57:58

and self-sufficient and it's that it's that independent like what you're looking for is not a woman who's

58:03

independent doesn't need a man but she can take care of herself she's self-sufficient right and so I really

58:09

like that you added that third piece needy needing versus needy right because

58:14

there's there's a big difference for a man in there there's a huge difference in can I

58:22

I mean I've can I talk about the independence and self-sufficiency yeah please please

58:28

um my my mother used to say to me when I

58:34

was wanting to be married again so I got married

58:39

when I was 23 in and that was the man to whom I was with Melissa because he

58:46

didn't do anything husbands are supposed to do and is that is that because he actually didn't or that's because what you

58:52

thought you thought he did like Melissa Scott's doing a decent job but Melissa's just cutting him off of

58:58

the knees every chance she gets right well the important part of my sentence

59:03

is what I thought he should do that's what I yeah okay yeah so

59:11

he wasn't anything that I thought a husband would be and he wasn't that way

59:16

before we got married but I thought getting married would change him I thought that Minister had buried them

59:23

yeah it's amazing and he would change into a Heisman and after we got married and I told him

59:30

the light had come on in my car and it needed its oil changed and he said you should take it to Jiffy

59:36

Lube that was my first indication that no no no husbands take care of cars

59:44

that's what husbands do they take care of quotes yes it's it's written on the it's

59:51

written on the on the stone tablets of husbandry yeah and um so anyhow when I was wanting

1:00:00

to be married my mother said to me um well Allison you may have to give up

1:00:06

your precious self-sufficiency and your damn Independence

1:00:12

at least the two different concepts they they actually and they are in the

1:00:18

way that um when I created the course that at the time was called celebrating men in

1:00:23

marriage um because it was everything I'd learned from Men about marriage and and actually

1:00:29

really intelligent about marriage um in a way that women generally aren't

1:00:37

um because men take commitment very seriously very seriously very seriously

1:00:43

and and you know I'm a dictionary girl so as

1:00:48

that course was coming through again with all these thoughts that I

1:00:56

thought were my own um I looked up Independence in self-sufficiency

1:01:02

and and women want to be married but they want

1:01:08

to be independent but independent means free from the influence of another

1:01:15

good way to be married exactly and so that's why a man will think this woman

1:01:23

could be my wife she has all the qualities I'm looking for in my wife and then she tells them about something

1:01:30

she's decided and in her behind

1:01:35

they're not serious enough for him to have the right to an opinion let them Lona

1:01:43

vote so she just decided you know she's selling her house she's you know she

1:01:51

just decides stuff and um and to her he doesn't have the right to

1:01:58

say anything about that she doesn't have enough status that he deserves to have influence

1:02:05

and he she doesn't women don't know that when she does that she thinks oh my gosh

1:02:13

would she do that if we were men because to him it's not about

1:02:20

the right to influence to him it's about we're checking out sharing lives

1:02:27

together how do we do things how do we decide things how do we solve problems what are we doing we're upset I'm and

1:02:34

this is a this is meeting to the puzzle pieces fit together and that free from

1:02:41

influence here's the result oh my God yes I

1:02:49

marriage isn't about independence it's about you honor yourself but you're

1:02:55

not free from influence everything about your partner influences your life whether you like it yes yes

1:03:02

which is why I think people have very healthy reasons we're not getting married and

1:03:08

and then self-sufficiency this is one of the things that I

1:03:13

had interact with women they want a boyfriend they want they even say they want to be married

1:03:20

and they're and they have this value of self-sufficiency which self-sufficiency

1:03:26

is an instinctual value right if you can't

1:03:32

provide for yourself right if you can't handle the normal things in life by yourself you're gonna die

1:03:40

but it all depends on what you're up to in your life

1:03:45

right once you commit to something that's beyond an individual's ability to

1:03:52

create self-sufficiency is no longer valid

1:03:59

like no this and you guys know this you taught me this oh like

1:04:04

my brother my brother's this amazing organic farmer right he goes out to his field and he's got this thing that he

1:04:11

wants to create he starts working on it um he's trying to solve a problem and he

1:04:17

gets to a point where he goes oh this is a two-man job

1:04:22

and he just concludes that he doesn't he's not embarrassed or ashamed of

1:04:27

himself for not being able to do it it's a two-man job or this is going to take a

1:04:35

tin it's not there's no pride of self-sufficiency it's retaken on

1:04:40

something that's beyond my ability to do and this is my part and I need people

1:04:46

who are able to do these other parts including I'm not a good team leader I need someone to read this too

1:04:51

okay and so it's it's one of the things that I appreciate so much that I've

1:04:56

learned from that then it's it's just a fact right it's not a

1:05:05

judgment it's just a fact given what you're committed to and you know I'm

1:05:10

passionate about partnership and in our our course Lux which is

1:05:17

online starts out by saying most people aren't up to anything big enough in their life to require perch

1:05:24

and we do so good purpose keep our lives small enough we keep our

1:05:29

Ambitions small enough so that we can be self-sufficient

1:05:36

and it ends up being a cert going from a Bible imperative to Identity

1:05:44

and and so we'll keep limiting ourselves we will have an idea to take on something and oh but I couldn't do that

1:05:50

myself let me just killed it I can't do it myself and so

1:05:56

yes a certain level of Competency I would call it in the in the way that I have put it yeah instead of

1:06:02

self-sufficiency I would what I've said is as a because women are like oh men you know men don't like

1:06:09

strong women and like uh hello instinctually

1:06:16

he's looking he's going to partner with a woman he is looking for the strongest

1:06:23

most competent partner that he thinks he can attract and keep

1:06:35

who's strong and confident but left with I got nothing to give her right because

1:06:41

he's looking for what would she need from me right what can I contribute to her how

1:06:48

does she just need me to have a better life and meanwhile women are concealing

1:06:54

what it is that like I tease women okay you're so proud of it self-sufficient so

1:07:02

I want you to make a list of everything you do need a man for like if you rub

1:07:07

your own back can you hold yourself in your arms and

1:07:13

comfort you the way that a man can do I

1:07:19

mean you guys are awesome this came up about the Queen's code last week because there's a part in

1:07:25

the first couple chapters where Kimberly is insulted at an effort to be comforted

1:07:32

right and then even I didn't even notice this one of the participants pointed out

1:07:37

and then later in the same chapter Claudia is being comforted by Bert

1:07:43

and it had her realize that she doesn't let anybody comfort her and she really

1:07:50

would love to become burned and she'd like to ask her husband to come for her I mean geez talk about something that

1:07:57

changes the quality of your life comfort so

1:08:05

yes there are many things we can be self-sufficient at and there are so many things that we can't beat because they

1:08:12

come from another human being right I like that I'm not committed to the

1:08:19

word um self-sufficient I just like the alliteration with soft and self-sufficient but you're right what I'm trying to capture with that is this

1:08:25

idea of um of not needy right so sufficient meaning not needy but I like competent as well right because that's

1:08:33

that's true like we're not looking for women that are completely and totally self-sufficient because you know we as

1:08:38

men when we become Good Men We recognize that we're not self-sufficient either and that's a big transition for because

1:08:44

many men are in this Lone Wolf kind of mentality I have to do it all my own you

1:08:49

know no one's coming for me I gotta do it all and it's a big step for a man to get past that and recognize as you as

1:08:56

you so brilliantly said if you only take on things that you can tackle as an

1:09:01

individual you're going to live small but you have to be able to work and live

1:09:06

in teams and Community as a man because that's how you accomplish great things right and so you have to get past your

1:09:12

own desire for for Lone Wolf Independence as a man or self-sufficiency and reckon recognize that none of us are as strong as all of

1:09:20

us and that's a point that I try so hard to make to men because one of the things

1:09:25

that I experience is that there are so many men in this in the men's movement in particular that are like my version

1:09:32

of being a man is the only way to be a man and that's that's objectively not

1:09:37

true and you can even see it in like the movie The Lord of the the Lord of the Rings right Aragorn is nothing like

1:09:43

Gimli is nothing like Legolas there's nothing like Frodo is nothing like Gandalf these men are not similar but

1:09:48

you recognize them all as men recognize them all as part of a team why why are all these kinds of men

1:09:55

different kinds of band and all equally valid men but all men have to look like you Mr content creator how does that

1:10:02

work and so and so I try to encourage men to get to that point where you're

1:10:09

um it's interdependence right dependence to Independence to interdependence where

1:10:14

you recognize what your limitations as a man are and you recognize that that guy doesn't have the same limitations but he has his

1:10:21

own and the two of you together can do much more and that you tie that also into partnership is very powerful

1:10:28

because it's not something like to ask women today what do you need a man for SNAP answer nothing

1:10:35

right you know and it's like it's not without even hesitation right your your face right there shows it right it's

1:10:41

like well is that true can we dig into that notion that you need a man for nothing because I don't

1:10:47

know that and maybe you said this to me um but I certainly heard it recently it said

1:10:53

um men have never said we don't need women they're they're you know there's a small

1:10:58

segment of men out there called mgtow men going their own way that say that but it's a but it's very small and

1:11:03

that's that Community has its own problems um but like that women have developed this

1:11:09

belief that they don't need men when men have never developed like I say like without women it's pointless right what

1:11:16

are we doing just go back and get in the cave like Bert says that like men would be content of caves and campfires

1:11:23

without women and it's true right so so I appreciate you're trying to break down uh using using the queen's code

1:11:30

especially this notion that women don't need men and and getting them to ask

1:11:36

like what do you think you might actually need a man for yeah

1:11:42

a night ago on and on just on that subject and um

1:11:51

you know you've met Dan who's been in his space he he says hello by the way

1:11:58

um yeah and

1:12:04

I didn't know until I moved here a year ago how

1:12:10

small my life had become living alone in

1:12:15

that huge house yeah right in the country um

1:12:22

and I didn't I didn't realize I was shooting too

1:12:28

until until I moved here and I never thought I would leave my house in the

1:12:34

country especially if you had to move to a city even though you know

1:12:39

huge city has 16 000 people so it's almost got a stoplight

1:12:47

he has many stoplights and and I have 34 miles from the stock right down upside

1:12:53

down at 295 people right so um but I got to experience

1:13:00

that um and as you know we don't live together Dan and I

1:13:07

um but I I live in this circle of his

1:13:12

protection yes he's kind of live together but not

1:13:17

really live together yeah I know what you mean well I think living together is full of

1:13:23

Hazards and that is one of the things I didn't want to do it was on my list if I

1:13:29

was going to be in a relationship again not attached to being married or living

1:13:34

together full-time and and so having my little house on his property in and

1:13:43

you've actually stayed in this house before it was mine yeah um I'm in his circle of protection and I I call him

1:13:50

the Lord of The Manor sometimes and but it's it's palpable

1:13:56

it's it's palpable because he's right there and my encounters with

1:14:05

my encounters with Bears last year um

1:14:10

the one trying to break down the shutter to get into the kitchen because I was cooking

1:14:16

um cooking is so good it attracts bears hey is it he was a little guy but he

1:14:25

seems like you know when standing up can reach taller than I am seems really big and

1:14:32

um that is pretty big bear yeah yeah so so the you know whether it's Critters

1:14:39

and um this year it's been raccoons five raccoons so far

1:14:45

um that we've trapped by raccoons some of them timid and some of them snarling and

1:14:52

terrifying um but just who I can be because I feel safe

1:15:00

and it's one of the things that um it towards the end of our understanding

1:15:07

women course um men who watch it can sue it they can see the the and get it this early

1:15:16

um women responding to this assertion that I've made that it doesn't matter

1:15:23

our sexuality it doesn't matter our competency instinctually

1:15:32

there isn't anything including a gun because after great guy

1:15:37

great guy I went and got one got to shoot it right um

1:15:42

nothing has us feel safe from an instinctual

1:15:49

vibration able to think thoughts and not others

1:15:56

the whole capacities that come from feeling truly safe nothing contributes

1:16:02

to that the same way as one man that you know is for you

1:16:08

but he's got you yes nothing and I I've asked this of thousands of women

1:16:15

you know picture how how you breathe what you think how you feel in your body

1:16:21

in the presence of a man you know is for you they're present to that okay now how

1:16:29

many women does it take to give you the same feeling and I

1:16:35

watched thousands of women thinking thinking like okay two five ten

1:16:43

under 500 until finally they all just shaking

1:16:49

their heads there's no numbers [Music]

1:16:56

and talk about interdependence right

1:17:02

um that we can contribute that to each other it doesn't have to be a romantic

1:17:07

relationship it doesn't have to be a sexual relationship it doesn't even have to be a committed relationship

1:17:14

it can it can be how you're being with me sitting next to me on a plane

1:17:20

like this this young man we were we were chatting about a bunch of stuff and then we said

1:17:26

um excuse me I have to close my eyes and take a nap now but I'll be back

1:17:33

that's cute and you leaned against the side of the plane and you closed his

1:17:39

eyes and you went to sleep and I just thought where did he find that

1:17:44

how was he woke up I asked him did you get that from to reassure me you're

1:17:50

still here you'll be back I am safe where did you get that from which led to a whole other conversation about his

1:17:57

mother his mother taught him oh my gosh um and and if you if you reverse it it's

1:18:05

the same thing I if I ever had one another career it'll be in in customer service teaching customer service to men

1:18:13

and having single Focus attention that you have on the customer in front of you if you just take a moment and say I'll

1:18:21

be with you with her right just like I'll be with

1:18:28

you next because we're standing in the line and the man has not acknowledged our presence we're gonna keep them in

1:18:34

attack he doesn't even know I'm here I'm gonna die and we get tense and then

1:18:40

by the time we get we start making [ __ ] comments and then

1:18:45

taking so long it's all out of fear it doesn't sound like fear but it's all out

1:18:50

of fear we're just one minute I see you I see you I'll be with you as soon as

1:18:57

I'm done here right it's the same effect as being able

1:19:03

to take a number and you see that that actually going by the numbers

1:19:08

at random numbers yeah yeah you wanted to say something

1:19:14

no this I mean this is very helpful

1:19:20

um because that's one of and I want to dive into

1:19:26

all of these topics and continue on our off-road Adventure but I told myself we were going to talk about the Queen's

1:19:31

good because we could talk about a thousand other things but I do want to bring it back to the to the book and the

1:19:37

audiobook and that I think um to go all the way back to my story for reading the

1:19:43

Queen's code is that I discovered keys to the kingdom and I don't know how I found it on Amazon I was overseas at

1:19:51

the time I was within 2018 maybe two late 2017 something like that and I read

1:19:57

the keys to the kingdom first because I read it was the first book so I'll read the first book in the series right and

1:20:04

um and I recognized just how true and real the

1:20:10

stages of development in a man's life are because I was on my big four-year overseas travel Adventure I was in some

1:20:17

sort of night stage I guess right like I was out slaying slaying dragons right and I was like and and that provided

1:20:24

such an incredible piece to me of of um peace p-i-e-c-e and peace p-e-a-c-e

1:20:30

right at the same time to recognize that no one had ever told me about the

1:20:36

various stages of life that I would go through as a man and I felt that I was doing something completely you know off

1:20:43

the main off the beaten path you know unusual irregular especially compared to all my friends who had settled down and

1:20:49

all that stuff but they had never really had much of a night phase and here I was trusting my own instinct to say there's

1:20:56

something unfinished in myself that I have to go do and so when I read that and recognizing excuse me and

1:21:04

recognizing that I knew intuitively that as soon as I was done doing that then I would be ready to

1:21:11

begin thinking about a wife and kids but this had to be done first right and and

1:21:16

like no one had ever given me that knowledge before but I knew it I knew it in my gut and I trusted it and I gave up

1:21:23

an entire life you know in the United States and in San Francisco and California I say I pushed all in put it

1:21:28

all on the table and said I'm going and I did it and that was my preparation for being able to have something to offer to

1:21:34

a woman later in my life and I knew that and then the keys to the kingdom you lay that out I was like I'm looking at my

1:21:41

life reflected in a mirror no yeah and there's a lot going there's a lot going on in that book

1:21:47

um but that's that's really what I took away I remember where that landed in my chest I was like oh I'm doing exactly

1:21:53

what I'm supposed to be doing hallelujah praise God for that right right

1:21:59

and so it was it was right after that like as soon as I finished keys to the kingdom I picked up the Queen's code

1:22:06

and I I'll never forget the experience of reading that book for the first time

1:22:13

on Unforgettable to see to to learn so

1:22:18

much about myself but to feel so understood to feel so completely understood by a woman uh and and to see

1:22:27

so many things like the way that you read the men in the audiobook now did you nail all of it like I'm listening to

1:22:32

you you know saying Bert and Jack and Raul and and their inflection and the

1:22:38

tone of voice and the way that the men say the things they're saying like for example when when Kimberly I don't know

1:22:44

it's kind of spoiler alert whatever so when when Kimberly says to Jack like you know I'd like for you to be my lover and

1:22:50

Jack's like no like not her I was like oh because I was

1:22:56

I was like oh I felt that in my own body when she said that like oh no right and

1:23:03

and I remember that whole experience of and Scott you know having been many of

1:23:10

those different men and so I remember when I read the book The First Time

1:23:15

that not only were the things that Claudia was teaching about men true right like she can say the things but

1:23:23

then the way that all the men Illustrated and embody the truth of them it was just incredibly powerful

1:23:30

experience that showed me a bunch of things all at once it showed me that um

1:23:35

it taught me about myself because I didn't have language to describe a lot of different aspects of myself that I

1:23:42

felt were true like the way that um the way that a a man is recharged around a

1:23:48

contented woman like I was almost in tears when I read that because I realized how rarely I had experienced it

1:23:54

and how true it was right so it showed me these things about myself it showed

1:23:59

me that men could be understood by women that we're not it's not some some dense

1:24:07

fog that's impossible to see through and that men and women can actually relearn

1:24:12

and it is relearn how to relate to each other and it was this powerfully transformative experience for me that

1:24:18

planted a seed in my mind that has taken shape over the past four years and and deeply informs what we've talked about

1:24:24

which is the great reconciliation and so now I find myself recommending the book regularly like several times

1:24:32

several times a week because it's had that much of an impact on my life as saying no we can relearn how to relate

1:24:40

to each other as men and women and and there's a way that we can start that process at minimum if not completed and

1:24:46

it's in the Queen's code which is a big thing it's a big thing to say

1:24:52

months thank you

1:25:09

um I think before we started recording and mentioned

1:25:16

um the acknowledgment of the in the book and yes my having added the part

1:25:22

specifically about the audiobook and um

1:25:31

it may sound strange but I am I feel blessed by

1:25:39

because of Greg having

1:25:44

across the bill passed died left me without taking any of his stuff

1:25:56

um could you have an interesting update for you and one of the things that I find uh

1:26:01

oh wow you have a film and for the Renaissance they've been

1:26:09

in his in his uh Porsche right um

1:26:18

because of his passing and because of Mike finally realizing I did what a

1:26:27

romantic relationship again um because for a long time I was like no I know how much work they take right it

1:26:34

takes so much work to be brilliant and I'm not going to have one that isn't brilliant so I don't know if I want to do this at all and then having that Dan

1:26:43

two years ago and encountering someone with whom it's worth it

1:26:50

right it's it's still work it's still everything I knew it would be

1:26:56

um yet the benefits are astonishing to me and and part of it is that conversation

1:27:04

we were having before great Greg was self-sufficient as an identity

1:27:13

oh interesting yes and and so

1:27:18

our partnership was limited because most of the things that I

1:27:24

offered in order to be of help in order to be useful in order to have something

1:27:31

go faster easier most of what I offered was taken as an insult

1:27:38

um yeah and so over the years I offered

1:27:43

less and less and less and less because it hurts to be interacted with that way

1:27:49

no he not no thank you no thanks for offering no this isn't it

1:27:57

no maybe another time just no and this page to it is

1:28:04

and in and I didn't know how much Dan I didn't

1:28:11

know how much Greg had had imprinted me like he he was the man that I had a

1:28:18

long-term relationship with you know almost 30 years together and even though I've been married before my first

1:28:25

husband and I spent almost retirement we were the picture of Independence

1:28:31

and so being with Ian who's a very different person in that

1:28:38

he's always played team sports right since he was four years old hockey

1:28:45

right yeah hockey's play team sports and then coached you know many many years

1:28:52

coaching hockey and and it's so distinct for him what team

1:28:59

is and we're gonna have a name for our team we were like headstrong

1:29:09

yes yes I'm strong laughs

1:29:19

but was this this thing it's really beautiful that I didn't

1:29:24

get to experience before where he he is known less by his admiration of

1:29:32

my strengths just as I am no less by my admiration

1:29:38

case yes and so you know he'll come along and

1:29:44

goes okay so what what's the engineer come up with how are we going to do this

1:29:51

it's great right you're the engineer and but then he'll tease me about being

1:29:57

um vertically challenged right

1:30:03

but then I'll tease him back we were walking down the sidewalk and there's an

1:30:08

overhanging tree and I walked right under it and he had to duck I said now who's vertically challenged

1:30:15

he remembers that one yeah

1:30:21

that's amazing yeah buddy um the things that we can do together

1:30:29

like learning to sail right last year learning to sail together hugely

1:30:35

challenging and he's amazing on the helm

1:30:40

right he's just cool as a cucumber and just awesome on the home I don't like

1:30:46

being on them but I'm a monkey right set me up for Mast

1:30:52

the under sale I'm a happy camper right I'm just like crazy like should we be

1:30:58

very agile and you know this little mountain goat on the boat and one line for yourself and one lane for the boat

1:31:05

oh wow oh so much fun right it's amazing

1:31:10

yeah and and so much fun because there's so little

1:31:17

we're just not proving to each other you know we're just not presenting each

1:31:23

other and although there's this funny thing I um

1:31:29

well it goes back to the independency but let me finish what I was saying so what I'm grateful to for the Queen's

1:31:35

code is I is I've had to relearn you know I I had to re-learn applied to a very

1:31:45

different human being what does it look like for him and just like you were talking about all

1:31:52

the characters are unique and to themselves as are all men there's no one way to be a man and yet there are these

1:32:01

intrinsic qualities that are so beautiful if you can see them and learn how to

1:32:08

work with them and if you

1:32:13

if you can't they seem like they're the reason why I can't get what I need from you

1:32:21

mm-hmm right this it seem like obstacles instead of instead of strengths and um

1:32:30

and I'm I love that you get to experience the Queen's code from the

1:32:36

intent in my in my intent of women getting to see men's motivations and how

1:32:43

beautiful they are and because of single Focus for example the effects of

1:32:49

testosterone on the brain things have to be worked with in a certain way or you can't get to the beauty

1:32:55

and the same is true for women right if women have such beauty but if

1:33:02

men don't know how much our safety depends on feeling connected and every time you focus on something else we feel

1:33:09

disconnected and lost and then we get afraid and we do all kinds of

1:33:15

ugly things um like be critical you know the first time

1:33:22

I was critical of damn it I was trying not to be but I was really afraid and we

1:33:27

just met yeah and he's like uh

1:33:33

felt like criticism and I stopped taking that a long time ago yeah like you told me that story that was fun

1:33:41

um yeah and then I burst into tears that I criticized him be Allison Armstrong

1:33:47

and just criticized a man and and then I just I was afraid I just confessed I was

1:33:54

afraid right and then he was tapping his steering wheel because he was driving he was having and she sounds like that

1:34:00

she's cute and she sounds like that she's scared she sounds like what she's doing he was memorizing he was learning

1:34:08

me because okay so how about if that happens again I'll remember that you're

1:34:15

scared and and then I'll ask what's scaring you

1:34:21

how about that that sounds good first deal right we're

1:34:26

gonna first deal just a few hours into this relationship and then I said well

1:34:32

yeah but as quick as I can already tell you or you will probably already figure out figured out the things that scare me

1:34:41

but if you want to ask that's fine and then I thought a second I said but how about I just come right out and say I'm

1:34:48

scared oh that's good right yeah

1:34:55

and then and it has been a passenger in a car right it's scary to be a passenger in a car

1:35:02

and in Colorado

1:35:07

yeah but it was great because a few months later I was trying to figure out how to ask him to not follow the car in

1:35:15

front of us so closely even though it'd be a normal place to follow in City driving and they're not

1:35:21

used to City driving and have a thing about tailgating and I was trying to figure out a nice way to ask that and

1:35:27

then I remembered and I said it's scaring me that you're so close to that car

1:35:33

let me just amazing so simple so simple right just

1:35:40

stick with the truth but we're trying to you know it's a definition of strategy

1:35:46

um to move yourself into the best possible position before engaging with

1:35:51

the Enemy oh yeah

1:35:56

right and that's how we are with each other we're trying to move ourselves into a position where we don't reveal

1:36:02

any weaknesses where we don't reveal any dependency where we don't feel anything

1:36:08

that we need which equals a weak a weakness right and so much of the Queen's code is

1:36:15

is just showing that none of these are weaknesses they're they're just part of

1:36:21

being human and how we reveal them to each other makes all the difference in how the other person can respond like in

1:36:28

that scene that you spoiler alerted you know Jack's reaction and then

1:36:34

got out of his reaction long enough to look over at Kimberly

1:36:40

Kimberly was being yes which is so much a part of the message that is not

1:36:48

stating it's how we're being with each other is so much more important than how

1:36:54

we put this right yes women are always asking me how do I say it and the Queen's code was

1:37:02

about I knew I could teach women how to speak the language of humans but if the

1:37:08

being the beingness of the woman isn't congruent

1:37:13

if she hasn't transformed her relationship to being provided for her relationship

1:37:20

to help to accomplish something bigger than herself her relationship to saving

1:37:27

her relationship like if she is a transformed her relationship to that even having the words it's not going to

1:37:34

work because it's people who were beating is louder than everything

1:37:43

it's I mean that's that's what's behind The Vow

1:37:48

right the the you know I vow to give up the right to castrate men forever it's that if you take on the teachings of the

1:37:56

Queen's code you can put them into your head you know and you can express them from your mouth but if the person who's doing

1:38:03

that if the woman who's doing that hasn't had a true change of heart like a

1:38:09

real trans a real commitment to transform her way of being two men

1:38:15

right then it's just going to create destruction and you illustrate that so

1:38:21

clearly through the through the Melissa scene with Scott it's crushing it's it's

1:38:26

crushing like to feel I I think you know I think um

1:38:32

I think Scott's reaction in that scene is is probably mild compared to what

1:38:37

would happen to a lot of men right like he's he clearly loves her a lot to

1:38:43

respond in that way versus just to walk out the door for example he's like okay right and and this is again that's the

1:38:52

power that's the power of the book and that that my experience as a man reading it

1:38:57

and to to learn the hero's language was obviously not going to give away um

1:39:03

and to to know intuitively in my own minds and in my own heart in my own body that yes those are the words

1:39:10

like those are the words that that that activate me and call me to attention and can truly bring out the best in me and

1:39:19

can also be used against me because I want to give my strength away as a man I've worked hard to cultivate

1:39:25

my strength as a man it's a it's a multi-decades-long project for a man to

1:39:30

get to a point in his life where he truly has the ability to offer himself like I offer myself to you partner or

1:39:38

you friend or who or whoever right and and here are the keys particularly like a wife right

1:39:44

you know fiance wife here are the keys to how to bring forth the best in me and

1:39:49

that those same keys can be used to absolutely bring out the worst right or or to destroy

1:39:57

you have to have a train a change of heart as a woman and how you in terms of how you relate to men in order to take

1:40:04

responsibility for those and then you really get to see men shine but it costs you something as a woman

1:40:11

you can't get it for free and that's that's the power of that vow it's like how how bad do you want that

1:40:18

you know how much how much of yourself are you willing to give to get something from a man that you could never give

1:40:25

yourself and that's where the transformation comes in that that commitment and it's

1:40:30

so inspiring to me to know that there are so many women that are willing to make that commitment

1:40:35

because you know the dialogues almost seems to be women who would never be willing to make that commitment but I

1:40:40

know for a fact millions of women they're like you know we're over we're over this independent self-sufficient thing

1:40:47

those guys over there you know they do things differently over there maybe we have something to learn from them and

1:40:52

and maybe they have something to learn from us let's give that a shot foreign

1:41:08

you said there's so many things that it sparked in me um

1:41:19

further along in the book which you referred to or Bert is trying to unwind

1:41:25

what's happening to Claudia and her help yeah he was really worried about her and

1:41:30

then he finally pinpoints it and and it's

1:41:36

it's the first time that this concept of accountability shows up

1:41:41

and it's so important and it's um

1:41:46

it's one of the most underestimated contexts

1:41:52

and um and one of the ways that women

1:41:59

unconsciously reduce men um I interacted with an organization and

1:42:05

that their job is transformation that's the business is transformation and the

1:42:11

founder um the founder died and his wife took over and when I went to be a speaker

1:42:18

there I was so saddened because I watched this

1:42:24

crew of women who were all in the leadership positions interacting with

1:42:31

men as helpers

1:42:37

yeah and and they didn't even know they didn't even know how much they were

1:42:42

emasculating these amazing men around them who if they just released the

1:42:48

accountability to that expertise instead of

1:42:53

managing and micromanaging everything like these were these guys are really

1:42:59

good helpers but they love very much they're like good dogs

1:43:05

do you know right yeah and

1:43:11

um in a course that we haven't gotten to have since the beginning of covet covered the answer partnership

1:43:16

accountability is the is if it's the first Topic in the context of

1:43:21

partnership and and I make fun of us that accountability

1:43:28

has become um there's a lot of status associated

1:43:34

with accountability and that the more that you're quote in charge of the more important you are and

1:43:42

that one of the things that's wearing women out is we will make ourselves accountable for anything and everything

1:43:50

and we don't stop and think is this my part

1:43:56

and and we're just we're just merely we don't even want to we just really

1:44:02

really willing to be accountable because you're afraid of what will happen if we're not we don't know that maybe two

1:44:08

steps behind us or someone for whom that would be privileged to the accountant

1:44:13

and it's one of the things that women don't know about men that that language

1:44:19

would do me that honor of being my wife would you do me the honor of marrying me

1:44:25

that he's asking to be accountable for taking care of her in certain ways

1:44:33

and and Melissa interacting with Scott and

1:44:39

the Queen's code she has no idea where she holds himself accountable for

1:44:46

um with his children with her with all the

1:44:52

people that worked for the mentors to be successful in their own careers like it's he is a huge capacity

1:44:59

and all she sees is he doesn't take out the damn trash yes

1:45:06

yeah and it um I asked the first time I led the dancer partnership and we were talking

1:45:13

about I call them accountability

1:45:20

okay [Laughter]

1:45:26

and and I just have this way of putting things Allison it's so good

1:45:31

I try to make things memorable right you succeed [ __ ] hours pumpkin hours

1:45:36

right yes dessert dessert pumpkin hours all that it's like yeah

1:45:43

um maybe that's my contribution to the

1:45:50

Queen's code to the movie um I think there's more than that so I

1:45:55

so I asked I'd say I'm receptive and obedient that those are my star qualities

1:46:03

um to all the things that are wanting to get through um but if I asked this group as the men in

1:46:11

the group like to what's it like for you for women to keep taking all the

1:46:18

accountabilities and leaving nothing for you at most at most they want your help

1:46:24

but they'll never ask you to be accountable or entrust you with accountability and

1:46:31

um this one man stood up he was probably in his 50s and he said

1:46:36

it's like training for something your entire life and then not be allowed to do

1:46:43

um that's right yeah it's what you said earlier right like this

1:46:51

um how you've known yourself to be all your entire life but no one calls you right

1:46:57

you've developed your strength that's so much what being a knight is about is actually

1:47:04

um developing and testing developing and testing developing and testing how good

1:47:09

am I I want to be good at that now how good am I yeah how good am I now how come right and it's it's awesome right

1:47:17

and then they have to put yourself to the test of all these things then being a prince you could say is okay now now

1:47:24

how am I going to use this to build something yes all these things that I've had

1:47:29

created in myself so yes accountability I imagine

1:47:36

accountability is going to show up in the third book it's about doing just arrived at near

1:47:44

the end of the Queen's private and it's it's huge it's huge

1:47:51

um one of the things you said is that the power and possibilities

1:47:58

of a partnership a determined by what each of the partners are being

1:48:04

accountable for being this women's

1:48:11

say that one more time just to make sure yeah that's yeah so I I like what

1:48:18

they're being accountable for say say that all again if if you don't mind the power and possibilities of a partnership

1:48:25

are determined by what each of the partners are being accountable

1:48:31

for being listening and speaking yes okay yes yeah including being

1:48:40

accountable for letting another person be accountable [Laughter]

1:48:45

yes to let you do your part to entrust you

1:48:52

to do the support you do in your part and it's your part this is this is massive

1:48:58

because I I don't want to one of the things that I run into writing about man

1:49:03

is I don't want to oversell men because I believe in the best of men but a lot of men really need to learn

1:49:09

accountability like that's a lesson that a lot of men and that's part of what the Renaissance of men is about that's part of what the men's movement about is

1:49:15

about generally is no man you like individual man you need to begin being

1:49:20

accountable for even more things than you're already accountable for the small the the very small life that you're

1:49:26

accountable for you can be much more accountable and take it and you can bear that weight of it and so I think that

1:49:33

there's been a week and I know that there's been a weakening of going going on of men that has forced women to take

1:49:38

on accountability in response and and I would I would say this is these are the result of societal forces that you and I

1:49:45

could spend a lot of time unpacking like I don't think it's all personal I think we're caught up in some some historical

1:49:50

flows that we're kind of fighting against the street well let's we'll just we'll got the thinking the thinking cap

1:49:56

on what can I say one thing about it because it's interesting yes yes you can what's that

1:50:02

integral to what the Queen's code is about because as women disempower men

1:50:11

yes we weaken you yes and then we we feel the weakness in

1:50:19

you yes and part of feeling that weakness makes us feel safer now you can't hurt

1:50:25

me yes but the other part of that weakness

1:50:30

has us take over yes

1:50:36

again to make us ourselves feel safe it's all about feeling safe so we disempower you to feel safe but then

1:50:42

because we've disempowered you we have to fill in and take over to have ourselves feel safe which the stepping

1:50:50

in and taking over also is a massive mm-hmm it makes it worse withholding

1:50:55

accountability is one of the biggest ways that women emasculate men or that any men are masquerade each other

1:51:02

right or even themselves so so this thing this spiraled down

1:51:10

right and in our work on partnership I start with accountability and we start

1:51:17

with the first person to become a partner of is yourself

1:51:23

and huge yeah and where I start with with accountability which is one of the

1:51:30

what I call a 14 extraordinary choices also known as 14 elements in Partnership

1:51:37

is actually starting with getting clear about what you're unwilling to be held

1:51:44

to account for

1:51:49

amazing 14 things that all have to happen simultaneously we talked we touched on

1:51:55

this in our last conversation yes yes okay and they're each Radioactive

1:52:00

but but here's the thing that related to the Queen's code that I would be thrilled for men to do

1:52:10

because what happens is women are trying to hold men to account

1:52:15

for acting like women the perfect person the perfect woman

1:52:22

and I'm terrible being that you're terrible peanut but this is what happens we're trying to hold you to account for

1:52:29

acting like a woman and you refuse to be held to account for acting like a woman which has women

1:52:35

think you refuse to be accountable for anything

1:52:42

yes it's too subtle it's too subtle women don't get it when a woman when a

1:52:47

man's like no you can't count on me for that well then I can't count on you for anything

1:52:53

instead of quit trying to count on me to act like a woman and you'll find out

1:52:59

what you can count on which the Queen's code is about what women can count on men four especially

1:53:09

when we stop trying to hold you to account for what you can't be counted on for yes which is doing what a woman would do

1:53:17

yes yeah but as long as we're down your throat about you're supposed to see what

1:53:23

I see and do what I would do and do it perfectly we can't ever see how much men

1:53:29

love to be count onable and for the things that men are count onable as for men

1:53:37

as a man or even individually like yes like when

1:53:43

so Greg would do this thing where he would figure out how far I was gonna go

1:53:48

and then he would make sure my car had enough gas to get there and back so he monitored my gas

1:53:56

tank imagine 20 years of this

1:54:02

sure okay and at one point I asked him I said I love that I don't ever have to

1:54:07

worry about gas but I don't ever have to put gas in my tank how would you like me to appreciate you for that

1:54:15

and his response took my breath away he said if you took that for granted it would

1:54:23

tell me that you know who I am [Music]

1:54:31

it opened up this whole other area of there are things appreciate about people

1:54:39

and it's actually insulting the way that we appreciate it oh you're such a wonderful man

1:54:45

no I'm a man yes

1:54:50

don't you get that like there's there's this insult that in what we won't take

1:54:57

for granted what we won't count on you for now do I think we don't need to appreciate things no I got a whole thing

1:55:04

on that appreciation's so important but someone's currency of appreciation matters and there are things that where

1:55:14

we're insulted and I've experienced it myself like that you think you can't count on me for that and make such a big

1:55:19

deal out of it is insulting to me yes

1:55:25

yes I can do much more than just that yes and so that sort of thinks for men to

1:55:32

own is this is what you can count on me for and if you just tell them you find

1:55:38

it then I'll know you know who I am and that's respect

1:55:44

it would be extra on top of what you can tell and this is the minimum this is how to

1:55:51

appreciate you for it mm-hmm right and then as one man said don't ask me for

1:55:58

what I can't provide yeah ask me for what I can provide and I'll give you all I've got

1:56:04

so women keep asking men to provide being a woman like Jack starts out in

1:56:10

the very first chapter women these days to be a man and a woman to be their

1:56:18

boyfriend and their girlfriend how come they don't how it doesn't work that way

1:56:23

and Men try that that's the thing though is that I'm glad that you mentioned that because some men do accept

1:56:28

accountability for being like a woman and it weakens it weakens men they try like me I tried that for many years and

1:56:36

women don't actually like it right that's the thing it's like okay I'll give you the thing that you that you want and you hate us and so I can't I

1:56:43

can't win right it's really tough and I do want to I want to I want to stay on that for just a second because there's

1:56:49

well there's a tendency in a lot of men in the men's movement to look at guys who act like that and and judge them

1:56:55

very harshly and there's a there's a lot of that and there's a lot of the ways that men can be cruel and judgmental to

1:57:01

each other right but I like the way that you frame it it's that these men are being accountable for the things that

1:57:07

the women in their lives are holding them accountable for and so they're actually being accountable but in this

1:57:13

inverse upside down kind of way it's not that they're unaccountable they're doing the best they can with the source that

1:57:19

they feel is authoritative right unfortunately which needs to change that's a whole thing but they're they're

1:57:25

they're actually being accountable now there are some men that are not being accountable for anything and that's a separate conversation but there are a

1:57:32

lot of men out there that are trying to be the safe you know nice you know

1:57:37

girlfriend kind of boyfriend like they're trying to do that because they think it's right and they're being

1:57:42

accountable for it it just doesn't work and and to be able to see that to make

1:57:47

that discernment and say this man is actually trying the thing and he's succeeding he's succeeding at the wrong

1:57:53

thing but he's trying right and and to ease up on some of those guys and to be

1:57:58

able to see them more clearly oh boy you just said so much

1:58:05

[Laughter]

1:58:15

sorry there's like 10 similar wrestlers trying to get to the door at the same time

1:58:21

that's how I describe my brains all little kids trying to get off the bus at the same time that's so funny that's

1:58:27

really funny so okay so I'm I'm gonna I'm I'm gonna

1:58:34

start with this part um there's a man his name is Curtis who

1:58:40

volunteered um and got trained to teach her material and he volunteered in the understanding

1:58:46

women course um I think 13 times was the last time that I knew wow and yeah and

1:58:55

I noticed in the last few times that I was around him that

1:59:00

she had changed in not a good way and that my sense of him was that he was a

1:59:09

volcano about to explode and

1:59:14

I had the kind of relationship with him that I could talk to him about it and Curtis what is this

1:59:21

and what it and it changed how I led that course because what he said was

1:59:28

well after being at this course and finding out how much safety matters to Bringing

1:59:34

out the best in women I have taken on accountability for making women feel

1:59:41

safe yep yep and and I could see I mean it was just like

1:59:49

right that him taking on accountability for making women feel safe he was

1:59:55

literally suppressing his own self-expression yes he wasn't telling

2:00:01

his truth he wasn't being his truth yes and that's

2:00:06

that was this volcano that was building them and and I got it and I for anyone if you did

2:00:15

understand a woman online course which is 11 hours of life changing

2:00:20

you'll see that I never say that anymore and I even mourn the men do not take on

2:00:26

making a woman feel safe I know it hurts you how scared we are I know you never

2:00:32

want us to be scared but don't make yourself accountable for making women

2:00:37

feel safe because you can't make women feel safe at the most you can help a woman to feel

2:00:45

safe But ultimately it's up to her to choose

2:00:51

because of an instinctual standpoint there's never safe enough just like as a as a man you've never

2:00:57

produced too much there's no Instinct that kicks in okay I've produced enough no get out there and hunt again and

2:01:03

again and again right and for us we're never safe enough we have to consciously

2:01:09

override our own instincts and decide I'm safe enough and men can help us to feel safe but you

2:01:17

can't make us feel safe and when finding out all the whackadoodle behaviors that

2:01:22

come from women not feeling safe it has you want to be able to make us feel safe

2:01:28

is that because you love the beauty of women and anything you can do to get it including you know just listen and

2:01:36

respond like a girlfriend would instead of saying that's a crock of [ __ ] you have a nail in your forehead

2:01:43

yes he is about the nail darling yes so it's

2:01:52

it's under used us to be into what's going to be attractive to me what's going to be

2:01:59

necessary to me is if you act like this but unfortunately the decision to do

2:02:06

that and then a man is suppressing his own truth which is the source of your strength

2:02:11

that's perceived by a woman as a weakness and you'll be our best friend but we never want to have sex with you

2:02:17

yes yes yes yes yes in order to respond

2:02:23

sexually to the perception of strength and a man standing up for himself

2:02:30

and if you can stand up for yourself early and maybe quiet more quietly so it

2:02:37

doesn't scare the crap out of us then we can just perceive the strength in it and think you're so hot instead of betrayed

2:02:45

betray betrayed the trade betray yourself and then the volcano experience and then and and that is so threatening

2:02:52

right you're gonna get a fight fight or freeze response which are mastery

2:02:59

and the investigation comes in every one of those responses so the being true to yourself from the

2:03:06

very beginning it goes back to this okay so if I was being true to myself what

2:03:12

would I be count on a book for and what would I allow other people to

2:03:18

hold me to account for in fact if they did hold me to account that would tell me they knew know who I am it would be

2:03:25

respect to hold me to account for that because I am choosing to be a coming

2:03:31

and telling that truth including and these are the things you can't count on

2:03:38

even if you think a better man would be count on a before it it's not true for you

2:03:48

I'm I'm I mean I hope all the guys are listening right this is not the message that's delivered to many men or that

2:03:54

many men receive right many men receive the message right fully or wrong and I

2:04:00

think it's objectively true that you should receive this message that you are responsible men and I think this is this is out there in culture you as men are

2:04:07

dangerous and you are responsible for making women feel safe and in order to

2:04:13

do that you have to declaw and defang yourself and remove remove any notion of

2:04:19

your strength at all and as soon as you do that women will feel safe and then they will want you

2:04:25

right and I can't I can't tell you how hard I did that I can't tell you the

2:04:31

number of times I had women say will you're a beautiful man and then completely and then completely

2:04:36

ignore me right like I did I'm doing all the things and it's not it's not getting

2:04:42

it's not getting the response that I was told I'm doing what I'm supposed to do as a man and it's not getting the

2:04:48

response that I was told I was gonna get yes right and I'm very I'm very fortunate that I came for myself right

2:04:55

and I had that I had the opportunity to meet men who sent me another Direction who sent me in the direction of things

2:05:01

that I had essentially shamed out of my own existence and one of the books that really does that for men um is the book

2:05:08

No More Mr Nice Guy by Robert Dr Robert Glover have you heard of this book

2:05:14

yes but I haven't read it it's I mean the the entire Dynamic that you're

2:05:19

talking about with this guy being a volcano Curtis like that's that's what that's the exact same image that Dr

2:05:25

Robert Glover uses where it's like men they suppress they suppress what's true

2:05:30

for them and and they become very nice right and they present in this very nice way very non-threatening but the truth

2:05:37

of who they are gets suppressed and suppressed and then explodes and comes out sideways and Jordan Peterson talks

2:05:44

about this as well there's nothing more dangerous than a nice guy because you don't actually know who he is and then

2:05:50

I'm talking I'm talking to friends other women in my life that are saying they that are getting around nice guys and

2:05:55

how anxious these nice guys make them feel right like I don't know where this guy is at it's like but this is the

2:06:02

message that so many men receive is that you have to be nice you have to be nice nice but what they don't say which is

2:06:08

what you just said that there's no amount of that you can ever truly make a

2:06:14

woman feel safe that she has to be be responsible for her own feelings of

2:06:19

safety and her own innate anxiety like whatever to whatever grief she has that she needs to be in control of that and

2:06:26

it's not your responsibility man to cut to defang declaw and castrate yourself so that she feels safe because you can

2:06:32

never disempower yourself enough to make her feel safe and you'll actually end up doing the opposite

2:06:37

that's that's some stuff right there yeah that's some stuff right there

2:06:45

is also how you said that that you can't ever do enough of it

2:06:51

um can ever go in the wrong direction for too long and unfortunately

2:06:59

hey this this here before right with what you

2:07:05

call the great reconciliation um and what I discovered and what shows

2:07:10

up in the third chapter in the Queen's code that when I was asked to stop castrating men

2:07:18

my first response was for them how I protect myself that's right and then as I felt into

2:07:27

what Ellen Hurst was asking me I saw that I would never

2:07:34

know like intimately I would never know my own power as a woman

2:07:40

as long as I was still in power from that that my ability to take men's power was

2:07:47

not the same as having power and that until I stopped

2:07:54

stealing power from men I wouldn't I wouldn't truly know my own

2:08:00

and it's interesting because when when we get to it

2:08:06

as many differences as there are between many women and I can catalog the

2:08:12

encyclopedias there's a few wonderful just if you the sameness

2:08:18

this sameness is the truth of that true the admiration and respect and

2:08:28

even really liking another human being begins with us

2:08:34

each men and women men or women that we treat ourselves in no way that causes us

2:08:42

to experience respect and admiration and writing ourselves

2:08:47

yes that when we hold ourselves to what we've decided to become our level for

2:08:54

then we interact with other people

2:08:59

with looking for was seeking what can we count on them for and respecting them for that right and liking them for who

2:09:08

they are and admiring them for the ways that are treated themselves but instead we're until we're interacting in that

2:09:15

whole domain we're never going to have the connections that we're looking for

2:09:20

and it

2:09:29

there's something that I want to give to your people

2:09:34

okay um so we'll we'll figure out how to give it

2:09:40

the how of giving it to your people okay

2:09:45

um it's a a webinar that I recorded summer of 21 when I lived here

2:09:55

I've lived here for about eight or nine months and it kept trying

2:10:01

to adapt to something I needed I kept trying to not need it

2:10:06

and as I kept trying to not need it my version of being nice

2:10:12

right I was being nice about something and then I would be the volcano that

2:10:17

erupted about every six weeks because I really needed something to change and I

2:10:24

was trying to get over it and it was something I presented to Dan before I ever met him

2:10:31

I stated this mood and then I was incongruent with it

2:10:37

and as a result of it I produced something called own your ultimate again

2:10:43

I remember you talking about this yes yes and the subtitle is a grown-up conversation with Alison Armstrong about

2:10:51

what you can't live with and can't live in fact and it's it's not long it's not a long

2:10:59

program but it it's it's one I think it's one of the most important that I've

2:11:04

ever done because it has us come to term with ultimatums which ultimatums are

2:11:11

considered a bad word right that sounds like a note to me you're giving me note to me and what it

2:11:18

unwinds is the problem is not whittled to meetings and that ultimatum means your final

2:11:24

offer the problem is

2:11:29

people first of all not being clear about their ultimators and secondly that

2:11:35

when we present our ultimatums to another person

2:11:40

is when we sense that they are attached enough to being

2:11:46

with us to clean it's a weapon

2:11:52

yeah we don't reveal what we need to be

2:11:58

all in this to stay in whatever it is whether it's as an employee an employer

2:12:03

romantic as a parent providing for a child we don't reveal the ultimatum

2:12:09

until we sense the other person will submit to it because of how much they

2:12:15

love us how much they need us how much they value the work that we do that then

2:12:22

they'll find who changed our ultimatum and that's why it pisses people off because of what a manipulation means

2:12:30

coercive instead of leading with them

2:12:36

I have a student in our smart singles intensive who came to Pride himself on

2:12:43

being the most quickly unliked man in online dating

2:12:49

that's the dubious thing to be proud of he was so proud of himself because he was being so true to himself and putting

2:12:58

up right what he was looking for up front what he required and not budging

2:13:05

no matter how attractive he found the woman to be and meanwhile he was also learning to

2:13:11

understand women and how to help them feel safe while being true to himself

2:13:16

and he and he really prided himself on how quickly he got unlike meaning he didn't have to go sorry I mean he didn't

2:13:23

have to go to any trouble to interact with people who ultimately couldn't give him what he needed who oh

2:13:31

I see to account for what he wanted to be held account for and what he was unwilling to be held account for go away

2:13:37

if you're going to try to hold me to come for that I'm not that man got it unliked not disliked

2:13:43

okay like him and then start to interact and then disagree disappear yes and and

2:13:49

he loved it it was his 100 % true to himself but in every

2:13:54

single interaction tune himself to himself to himself which is what Schwartz singles is about on yourself

2:14:00

first or always lost and and so leading

2:14:05

with your ultimatum the owner ultimatums it's the beginning of that it's the

2:14:10

beginning of yes you may be rejected but get rejected when you care more about

2:14:17

liking yourself than being liked by somebody else when you care more about respecting

2:14:23

yourself then being respected by somebody else in other words when you're more loyal to your own requirements

2:14:31

wouldn't care the least about what they think about what you need instead of saving it for when you care the most

2:14:37

yes that's I mean this is this flies in the

2:14:43

face of what a lot of men are taught which is they're not taught that you as a man are allowed to have standards

2:14:49

right like that's that is a controversial idea there's nothing that causes more friction in a lot of online

2:14:55

circles than a man saying these are my standards he's like no you just have to you just have to accept me as I am if

2:15:02

you love me you have to accept me as I am right and and there's a degree in which you're delivering the ultimatum that's the coercive element right where

2:15:08

that shows up later versus if a man or woman can go through the exercise up

2:15:14

front and I think that's at least half of the power of it is to know what they are for yourself even before you meet

2:15:21

somebody like you're walking around carrying this knowledge inside yourself of what your ultimatums are like How

2:15:27

Deeply How Deeply empowering relationally me and my people gladly won't receive that gift

2:15:34

no yeah and then and then the challenge is is to keep being congruent

2:15:41

I I presented my ultimatums early and then I was in congruent I'm trying

2:15:49

to be nice and get over one so I was sending these mixed messages

2:15:55

that I would blow up about this every once in a while but in between I was incongruent

2:16:02

you know the ultimatum was a healthy diet and lifestyle yeah I remember you telling me yeah right and I'd watch him

2:16:08

put crap in his mouth feel terrible look terrible have low

2:16:13

energy right but I wouldn't say it when he was doing it I would just get upset about it every

2:16:19

once in a while ago and I told you this before overnight I require being with someone who has a

2:16:25

healthy diet and lifestyle but then in between I be inconsistent yeah

2:16:31

a disservice right being nice is a disservice being kind

2:16:38

being kind congruency is kind truth is kind yes

2:16:46

it's vital and that's a distinction that a lot of men are beginning to learn is that the opposite of nice isn't mean if

2:16:53

you stop being a nice guy you don't become a mean guy because a lot of men you know they they worry this is the

2:16:59

metaphor that I give the men that I work with because I run into this problem often a lot of guys worry that if they

2:17:06

were they pull the sword from the stone right they've sacrificed their own their own power then they pull the store they

2:17:13

ask themselves not in these words but if I pull the sword from the stone who will I become will I become a tyrant

2:17:20

right that's their worry because they've seen powerful embodied men before B

2:17:26

tyrants either from childhood and maybe not even like major league tyrants but they've experienced a strong embodied

2:17:32

man say crossing a boundary even even accidentally and like I don't want to be that and so to point to paint the

2:17:40

picture for them first of all that that you're even worried about that is proof

2:17:46

that you won't become that because you are the conscientious man who can pull that sword from the stone but the

2:17:52

ability to paint the difference in language between niceness and kindness

2:17:58

really helps crystallize it like you won't you'll stop being a nice guy but

2:18:03

you won't you you will become a kind man right which is which is a far better

2:18:09

posture of strength and being but you have to you have to risk something to do that you have to risk actually having

2:18:16

the sword in your hand and you have to be the kind of conscientious man the now

2:18:21

doesn't keep your power locked away but that keeps it in check and knows where to use it productively it's a whole

2:18:28

greater degree of self-responsibility and and when I when I paint that metaphor for them they get it it doesn't

2:18:35

mean they stop being afraid but they still they still get it because they're taught that the difference between

2:18:40

kindness the opposite of kindness is meanness and that's absolutely not the case but no one's ever painted the

2:18:46

picture for who they'll be as a fully embodied man that you don't lose the best parts of yourself when you take

2:18:52

your power on you enhance them and bring them to reality into manifestation

2:19:00

yay yay I want to be I want to be sensitive to

2:19:06

your time but I have I have three questions that um okay so um and we and I'll tell you

2:19:13

what they are up front I got a couple questions from women that wanted to ask you um about uh the case the kingdom and

2:19:21

then I have I have a question about these 14 different things because it came up in the last conversation and I

2:19:26

think that you've you've teased apart the pieces of the great reconciliation and I wanted to bring it up last time

2:19:32

but I I didn't get like it was one of those things like I watched it go away in the conversation like no come back so I want to get to that but the first the

2:19:39

first question that I got from one of my listeners is in the keys to the kingdom you lay out

2:19:44

the stages of a man's development where a man doesn't feel able uh to provide

2:19:50

for a family and that the woman has to be patient while the man gets to the point where he can become a provider

2:19:55

that he has to feel comfortable within himself and what this listener asked is what if there's a biological component

2:20:01

that's a that's an urgent need like physiologically for her and he doesn't feel like he's there yet how can she

2:20:09

communicate with him or or what's the dialogue that goes in there it's like hey I know that you feel like you're two

2:20:14

years away it it'll be it'll be significantly different for me two years from now like

2:20:20

how did how does she have that conversation what should she say how does that take place

2:20:27

well there's a lot of inquiring to do and it goes back to our conversation about

2:20:34

self-sufficiency because a man being ready for something

2:20:42

he's interacting with his own self-sufficiency can I handle this can I deliver this can

2:20:50

I be all that I need to do there are things that become possible in

2:20:55

Partnership that are Unthinkable and self-sufficiency can I raise a child

2:21:03

no I'm not ready to raise a child okay but are my wife and I ready to

2:21:08

raise a child do we have sufficient communication

2:21:13

skills are we aligned have we had all the conversations about how we would do that like

2:21:20

do I have can I have confidence in us I may not have complete confidence in

2:21:27

myself but I have confidence in US I know she brings out the best of me and

2:21:32

I'd surprise him to the attention and I know she has a limited reproductive lifestyle life cycle

2:21:39

so there's some give and take with medication okay honey there's this one thing I gotta do in the business before I know

2:21:47

I'll have enough bandwidth to be your partner and parenting a child and I want to be your partner I want you to be left

2:21:53

raising your children because I didn't have enough bandwidth to

2:21:59

I gotta get this one thing done which then her question can be so how can I

2:22:04

support you instead of that's stupid right you validate please don't say that indeed

2:22:11

that end of conversation right so there's things that are possible um and then I've interacted with a lot

2:22:18

of women because wanting to be a biological parent is a very strong

2:22:23

Instinct and it it is endangered much earlier in women's chronological lives

2:22:31

than women know into why women start getting wound up at about age 29 because that's when the

2:22:39

body is recognizing the lower levels of estrogen and testosterone which are

2:22:45

provided by that ovum um and they're disappearing right and so

2:22:51

those lower levels are registered as this is an emergency biological need and

2:22:57

we talk about that in understanding women and there are things that can be done if

2:23:02

if there's truly a joint desire and truly a conflict for example to harvest and

2:23:10

fertilize aims but implant them two years later

2:23:15

there are things that can be done but it's something this goes back to that

2:23:20

ultimatums thing we need to have the when of having children conversation

2:23:27

way before way before 30. yeah wait way

2:23:32

way before way before even getting married do you know it's it's something I'm

2:23:37

proud of my son for by the way he two years ago he said I'll be ready to have children in 10 years

2:23:46

he'll be he'll be 42 when he's ready to have children and he's very methodical and thinking about these are the moves I

2:23:53

need to make now in order to be ready to do that when I want to do and and so men have so many plans we

2:24:00

don't even know about that we have to be very safe to find out about um yes oh yeah yeah so I would say how

2:24:08

to have that conversation was it with with a heck of a lot of respect and be very clear what Perkins where her bones

2:24:17

are and have them backed up by facts not just feelings

2:24:23

go to the doctor ultrasound like ovaries what's my biological life here right

2:24:30

yeah I was so happy when I found out I had plumpers

2:24:36

more than I was supposed to have at 42 years old um so

2:24:42

that would be my answer to that question what's your next question

2:24:47

well just to just a tag on my response to the man in that situation if I could

2:24:53

speak to him would be there is a component of wait until you're ready but

2:24:58

men also can fall into a trap of never feeling ready for anything family whatever like I'm not ready I'm not

2:25:04

ready it's like there is a component of no you throw yourself off the cliff and you figure it out on the way down and

2:25:10

making a commitment to a wife and a family has the way of Turbo charging men's focus and productivity because now

2:25:17

I think a switch gets flipped in a man's Minds like now I am responsible and I've made the commitment to be responsible

2:25:23

for something and someone Beyond myself and that only in that leap can you find

2:25:29

the strength to do that so if you're waiting for some external or even internal thing to change and then I'll

2:25:34

be ready no like the actual doing of it creates the Readiness so that's that's

2:25:39

one of the teachings that's going around for men so women have a there's a dialogue dialogue component where it's

2:25:44

like well honey what do you actually need to feel ready and to have him say make it Concrete in a specific thing how

2:25:51

can I help you achieve that and then there's there that triggers a little accountability switch like oh wow okay

2:25:56

that create and that creates you know something tangible to work with and so that's a that's a you know rather

2:26:02

than a woman strategizing well how do I how do I approach how do I confront the enemy about this it's like no you can just say and for for the man to have

2:26:09

faith in the strength of the partnership and the strength of a self and himself and his brothers I think is powerful as

2:26:16

well yes well and what you're touching on is is also one of the obvious

2:26:22

answers what normally happens between men and women

2:26:28

it will seem like the man has to count on himself because because he's not

2:26:34

winning as a husband how is he going to win as a father with the same person

2:26:39

oh good point yes huge huge risk right he's already taken

2:26:46

on providing for her and he's not winging at it mostly because she won't let him mm-hmm

2:26:52

It all becomes internal and um my son's father actually said to me

2:27:00

once that he thought that it was a good thing I'd gotten pregnant because he thought he would never have been raped

2:27:09

okay got it yes yeah yeah and when we got divorced it was when he

2:27:15

actually dedicated himself to fatherhood

2:27:24

um what was your next ingredient next question um

2:27:30

I have been following your work from the beginning of my 10-year marriage your teachings I believe are why I'm still

2:27:36

married I also use the principles with my son I always boost him up with appreciation and I do my best to not

2:27:42

interrupt him when he talks although this one is hard for me what other tools do you recommend while raising a 10 year

2:27:48

old son um

2:27:55

it goes back to our conversation will about accountability or count on ability

2:28:02

and one of the things that we paid attention to is how someone relates to an

2:28:08

accountability has everything to do with how to interact with it so it's like a scale like unwilling to

2:28:17

be accountable we try to hold people accountable who are unwilling to be accountable that's the lowest level of

2:28:24

Duty would be the next level it's my duty as assignments my duty as a father

2:28:29

as a brother as an employer duty is a form of accountability

2:28:36

but at that level it's always going to be only to the standard of the person

2:28:43

who thinks it's a duty they're going to do the minimum of their duties

2:28:48

okay so that is willing to return you're willing to be accountable but

2:28:54

it'll be under certain conditions and then up from that is a request to be

2:29:00

accounted please pick me give that to me to take care and then that and it may be given that

2:29:07

to me to take care of because then I'll know it's taken care of right maybe give that to me to take care of

2:29:13

because I have a vision for it right because I'm capable at that I can get

2:29:18

the job done for the whole team and then up from requested I mentioned before is privileged it would be a

2:29:24

privilege to be accountable for it and as young as probably

2:29:33

um four or five years old it's appropriate to interact with young

2:29:39

people I don't call them children on purpose with young people about what

2:29:44

they can be counted on for and what I need to be able to count on you for are you willing to take that on be

2:29:51

interacted with as account honorable and how could I support you since you're committed to being accountable for that

2:29:58

what do you wish you were interested with if that was your job around here

2:30:03

you see life what do you wish was your job I wished mowing the lawn was my job

2:30:10

but I was a girl and those jobs were given the boys in the 60s I didn't get to mow the lawn or clean the pool I got

2:30:17

to vaccin and dust okay you can imagine my late 50s when I

2:30:24

got to work on my dad's car with him I'm excited I was to be painting the

2:30:31

calipers on his car the matching wreck

2:30:36

Dad I'm working on the so funny so that's beautiful yeah I mean

2:30:45

what he'll be empowered by is be known that he's counted on for what he wants

2:30:51

to be counted him and even what he'd like to grow into being Canada

2:30:58

it's it's tremendously empowering to young people to be held to account

2:31:04

there's so much smarter and more able and powerful and capable than a

2:31:09

different type and that's the way that we must get it yes especially the boys you're a typical

2:31:16

teenager I didn't have typical teenagers

2:31:21

at all I never went there you wouldn't [Music] well but I held my kids to account for

2:31:27

behaving in particular ways I never punished his punishment is

2:31:34

baloney mainly ever had real consequences in it they were finished

2:31:39

the desire to punish is deadly and and Punishment doesn't work

2:31:45

consequences real consequences actual consequences like if you don't get you're if you don't go to school

2:31:53

you end up with a lot of homework yeah yeah I didn't make my kids go to

2:31:58

school they decided to go to school because it was easier to do homework for other teacher was talking about stupid stuff

2:32:05

in the middle of class [Laughter]

2:32:11

accountability I recommend accountability that's great yeah it's um

2:32:17

calling calling to the archetype another book that you you might enjoy if you haven't if you haven't read it is king warrior magician lover by Robert Moore

2:32:24

and Douglas Gillette that's another one it's like calling to that King archetype even within a boy you know calling forth

2:32:30

not just uh when I hear the word Duty I think of something Beyond minimum but I

2:32:36

hear in in your hierarchy of you know that that what I think of of Duty is the privilege to do something like this is

2:32:42

my duty but yes that there's this hierarchy of um hierarchy of accountability we're at the

2:32:48

highest level like I would be privileged to take that on to give it to give a young boy the opportunity to perform to

2:32:55

that standard I mean that would be life-changing stuff for for a little boy especially especially if you give him

2:33:01

the tools to do it well right and he has a father and a mother who supports him in that that I mean absolutely

2:33:10

foundationally formative for his self-esteem and self-respect yes and every word in the language of Heroes

2:33:17

applies that was absolutely in fact I've seen it

2:33:23

a chapter one the word here oh wow wow I've never heard it before

2:33:30

responding the essence of what it is

2:33:36

[Music] yeah it works even with it works even with young boys as well which is such a

2:33:41

profound truth about men that it's it's part of us right it's not it's not something that that Allison came up with

2:33:48

and now that all men have to be taught and then we learn oh yeah it's like no no you've you've you've touched on

2:33:54

something that's fundamental and permanent and true in in the essential masculine makeup of men

2:34:00

then that was the power of it when I read it it's like it was like looking into a mirror and it's still like

2:34:05

looking into a mirror like listening into a mirror right and and that's that's the amazing part of it like I and

2:34:13

you talked about in the very beginning that you channeled you channeled the material or it was given to you whatever

2:34:18

the language is it's a it's a gift it chose to come through you into the world

2:34:24

and and um and the proof of that to me is that it's also blessed you and your life

2:34:32

right like you you received it and it continues to change and transform you and the men who are in your life and and

2:34:38

the women who in your life as well like in your personal life and me and so that's that's the the surest

2:34:43

testimony to the to the essential goodness of what you've discovered um

2:34:49

if I could say something to be complete your question from the father about

2:34:54

appreciation um there are different currencies of

2:35:00

appreciation and we often express appreciation in our own currencies

2:35:06

in it you may not register over there so it's really important to find out how do

2:35:13

you like to be appreciated and accountability can be a form of appreciation

2:35:21

um or it can be insulted haven't I done enough for you

2:35:29

um yeah it's it's one of the things that we have to be sensitive about interacting

2:35:35

with would you would you feel appreciated if that became your job

2:35:42

oh yeah they like you value them you trust me my job no that was fun to do this time

2:35:51

give me something else to do something else to do okay yeah

2:35:57

third question I've been waiting a year to get to say really save the best possible here's the thing

2:36:04

with here's the thing with the great reconciliation that I had realized uh it would have been it would have been

2:36:09

around when we met or after something like that but it was before we had that first Contact podcast conversation I

2:36:15

recognized that in the great reconciliation both men and women have to step into the circle at the same time

2:36:22

there can be no you go first it's like we both have to step into the circle at the same time and let go of a lot in the

2:36:30

spirit of faith and mutual trust and mutual love that it's not just women it's not just men it's both it's

2:36:36

happening simultaneously right and and the profound risk of trust and love and

2:36:43

faith that's embodied and all that and when you said that I realized that in that moment it sounded to me as if you

2:36:50

had taken apart the great reconciliation all the pieces of it and I was like oh I want what's that about and I wanted to

2:36:56

ask and I didn't ask because the conversation of course we went on our big rambling off-road journey and that

2:37:02

whole conversation and then four hours had gone by and it's like and it was gone and so I've had that thought in my

2:37:08

mind for over a year now wanting to talk about that specific thing that that

2:37:13

somehow it seems that you and I are looking at the same thing and that and that you see that you being you and

2:37:19

studying men and women the way that you do you see things at such a high at such a high resolution that I haven't been able to explore but there's something in

2:37:26

that there's something similar that you and I are looking at so I wanted to talk to you about that and and I don't know

2:37:32

if you can talk about what those 14 things are if it's in a course or what you can say about them but

2:37:37

please tell me it's been this giant mystery in my head

2:37:43

um so those Fortune things are in a close

2:37:50

um and I would propose to do them Justice that you and I

2:37:59

um have a different time to talk about okay and

2:38:04

um accountability is one of them

2:38:10

um by choice is the way I would put it it kind of give me my choice not just what

2:38:16

I'm trying to hold this to account for um sufficient clarity

2:38:24

there's a there's a sufficient amount of clarity that's required

2:38:29

um but I want to say something about the step into the room at the same time

2:38:37

because there's two sides of it

2:38:42

um the intent of my work directly on

2:38:47

partnership which there's 14 choices are is for people to embody those choices

2:38:56

and just so you use the word embody for people to embody those choices such that

2:39:02

they become what I call an invitation Department

2:39:08

so we can't make people partner and and not everyone is suited to partner and we

2:39:16

don't need to partner about everything in life we don't need to exclude

2:39:21

self-sufficiency um I think of human beings as as particle and waves

2:39:29

and the engineers we need to take care of

2:39:34

our particle in order to be a contribution to available waves in some

2:39:40

ways we participate in and it's also possible to lead it with um just called transformation

2:39:47

transformation teachers lead waves and

2:39:53

it's so to be an invitation to partner doesn't mean you're always going to get

2:40:01

a yes but until you're an invitation to partner you can't get it yes

2:40:07

and so this is to your your we have to step in at the same time

2:40:15

um we can't we can't control another stepping in we can only control elves

2:40:21

so if you step in as an invitation to partner and you're the only one standing

2:40:27

in the circle for years um we keep being an invitation to

2:40:32

partner but what I discovered once I stopped a masquerading men

2:40:38

is how much men are already an Invitational partner

2:40:43

and it had me inquire yes there are men who are not

2:40:51

they are self-sufficient as a principle even even Greg who had that as part of

2:40:57

his identity there were ways that we could partner magnificently like as parents

2:41:03

um but there's this other thing I want to

2:41:09

offer will and it happened between Dan and I just a short while ago at the

2:41:15

beginning of my five-week kind of vacation where where something happened in

2:41:23

checking into a hotel room in Nashville where he she went completely independent

2:41:30

to solve the problem and he didn't know that I was standing by to help solve it I mean this enormous

2:41:38

Rift I didn't just have my feelings hurt I was completely disconnected and

2:41:47

the way I described it to him the next day was that I I couldn't feel loved

2:41:57

I I could I I felt no love for him and I realized that I couldn't feel loved

2:42:03

period even for myself a really clear sign that I was deep in a

2:42:08

human instinctive reaction and when I told him I couldn't to love for you he said yes I could tell

2:42:16

and I became an island um and so here were these two human beings

2:42:24

in this situation together completely isolated I actually piled up pillows on

2:42:31

the edge of my bed between us like wanted a wall I was so

2:42:38

disconnected from my own spirit and a funny thing that happened the day

2:42:44

before when we were driving to the airport we passed a lake and this Lake normally has an island in the center of

2:42:52

it and I noticed that the water had fallen so low that there was now a land

2:42:58

breach between this island and it the surrounding environment and my remark

2:43:04

was wow I hope there are birds nesting on that island because now the Predators

2:43:10

can get to them through the land bridge and I just it was just an offhand

2:43:16

comment well we didn't speak for a lot

2:43:21

of hours like 16 hours or something we didn't speak to each other sharing a

2:43:27

hotel room about to attend a retreat I'm being Guided by higher consciousness

2:43:37

and I came out of the bathroom and he was standing there and he said can we hug

2:43:45

and I did not want time but we hoped

2:43:51

and it was like two boxes hugging there was no warmth no softness no

2:43:59

Comfort no connection no nothing but I acknowledged him later

2:44:06

for offering the land breach that he had become an island and that in

2:44:14

that moment asking for a hug he had offered a land bridge and even though I didn't want to I

2:44:20

accepted it and that was the beginning of us being able to talk about what had

2:44:26

happened and to sort it out and to reconcile and

2:44:34

we we now have evolved it because you know we we play so so land bridge became

2:44:40

hand bridge when there's a breakdown he'll hold out his hand and Bridge and

2:44:46

I'll take his hand either one I don't want him and we had a breakdown we got back from

2:44:52

my birthday trip to Hawaii so I came out with something that we

2:44:57

normally don't eat a scone for the non-gluten eaters food branch

2:45:04

[Music] and and I it's something that I said years and years ago about in a

2:45:11

partnership he or she who can dance

2:45:18

so if you if you can say I'm sorry if you can say let's talk if you can say

2:45:28

if you can reach out your hand you do reach out your hand

2:45:33

yeah and until we do that we won't know if the other person will

2:45:41

step into the circle until we step into the circle we won't know who it's going

2:45:46

to show and that's what stunned me when I stopped emasculating mine

2:45:53

I thought I'd have to learn how to bring out the prince instead of the fog I'd

2:45:59

learn how to I'd have to learn how to bring out the best sooner when I just stopped taking men's power

2:46:06

I was stunned and continue to be amazed by crew men offer before you're coming

2:46:17

just stop being unkind and find out who mental and so many of you are already in the

2:46:24

circle bewildered why women treat you like enemies

2:46:29

when all you want is good for us and you don't know that how we're

2:46:36

judging you and perceiving you we can't see your goodness because you don't express it like a woman which goes back

2:46:42

to our previous conversation so many men are trying to express it like a woman in order to be seen but it's a betrayal of

2:46:49

yourself and cause you to be even less yes

2:46:55

yes this is why from from the female side of the reconciliation

2:47:06

what I've said for years is is that it's up to us

2:47:11

men are not the source of the Cold War men are not not on the attack men are on

2:47:19

the defense when women stop attacking men this all

2:47:25

mountains they don't have a need for it and it's it's a different word that I use than

2:47:33

powerful in in Partnership power disappears

2:47:40

another way of saying it there's power enough between us that we don't even talk about it we don't even think about

2:47:47

it there's no power of struggle because there's power enough between us

2:47:52

there's no powerful power less power zero there's just us and and ability right

2:48:00

Powers the ability to do or generate a Cause right there's justability and partnership there's a

2:48:06

stability and that's what happens when you stop being afraid of each other and stop taking each other down or when we're

2:48:13

afraid of each other we say so I'm scared and

2:48:19

last year when I produced to own your ultimatums and Dan realized what I was

2:48:25

talking about he's like okay what else on your list will we break up a word I said every single thing yes

2:48:35

each and every one of them including the ones you already are if you stop being that way and you're 42 all together and

2:48:43

and at one point I said I want to run and he said and he reached out and he

2:48:50

said okay take my hand and then we're talking some more and a

2:48:55

little while lady goes now I want to run let's hold both hands

2:49:01

ha that's great what a man

2:49:12

yeah it's so big you know and he generates being that way when I'm at my

2:49:18

worst which is what I realized I needed in a partner was not just someone I inspired to be

2:49:25

great or it can be great when I'm safe but generates being great on their own

2:49:31

when I'm my scariest and my scared which obviously they go together and my skills

2:49:40

which is how to help me

2:49:46

he's got that he's got that strength of Venom to be able to contain that and to be able to respond to that into um

2:49:54

disarm it let's say yeah

2:50:00

so I think we should dedicate its own

2:50:05

session to the great reconciliency okay about add some some homework for you

2:50:13

before and I look forward to the conversation me too me too and and thank you for

2:50:20

pointing something out to me by the way because I I um I know a lot of men who have dealt with

2:50:27

being castrated for for a long time right and and whether they've allowed

2:50:34

them some selves to be or not they've been the recipients of it and they have a lot of distrust of women

2:50:40

um and it's earned it's earned and not only that do they have the distrust of women their

2:50:46

shamed persecuted for even mentioning it for even suggesting that women are anything less than perfect angels that

2:50:53

women have a shadow that women have a dark side that women are unkind or unfair to men they get in trouble for

2:50:58

even saying that and so so they have a lot of earned we'll call it resentment anger towards

2:51:05

women and towards the entire cultural moment that doesn't allow them

2:51:10

to even say this is wrong and bad and so when I say step into this and women of

2:51:16

course have their own culturally um cultivated resentments towards men as we've been discussing

2:51:21

so when I talk about having to step in at the same time I'm speaking to those men that like no

2:51:28

you have to let go of this as well but you help me you help and this is the world that I come from right like not

2:51:34

not where I was born but like the world of the Ben's movement that I've come through with men who have recognized a lot of things that you're describing

2:51:40

haven't been able to put as clear language to them and are like yeah I

2:51:45

don't even know if I I naturally my body want to do this but if I make myself

2:51:51

vulnerable or available to a woman is she gonna bring her daggers into the

2:51:57

circle what's her disincentive from doing that because men can look around and we can

2:52:02

see everywhere in movies and stuff like that where it's like all women got their daggers out hold on while I just

2:52:08

castrate all these men in this new Lord of the Rings series I'm just gonna six episodes of castrating men right and so

2:52:13

men look at that and they're like why should I trust women but you remind me that the men who think about those sort

2:52:20

of things is not all men that there are a lot of men are like look I'm just looking for partnership I'm just here trying to do my thing I want to be a

2:52:27

husband I want to be a provider and there are a lot of men that are already standing in the circle and you remind me of that so thank you

2:52:33

for that because I think that there are some men that I'm trying to encourage to step into the circle because I know many women who are like I'm so ready to step

2:52:40

into the circle well then there's a ton of other people out there men in particular that are like yeah Ma I've

2:52:45

been here I've been holding it down so thank you for reminding me of that you're welcome

2:52:53

I would also say well that part of my intent of the Queen's code specifically

2:53:00

the audiobook is that one way that men can remove it

2:53:08

is once hi honey we're on my last sentence I

2:53:14

think you want to say hi to Will oh cool

2:53:21

she's gotta take this cold close up okay oh you got a Snoopy on the Zamboni

2:53:27

come here honey look at this face what a blessing it

2:53:34

will hey what's up Dan good to see you good to see you

2:53:40

yeah that pillows not actually if you're

2:53:46

falling yeah I'll let you guys get back to it good

2:53:51

seeing your will good to see you Dan okay

2:53:58

um I I believe and I would love for you to

2:54:05

check this out for me I believe in listening to the Queen's

2:54:10

code and Men recognizing their resonance

2:54:16

of Who You Are

2:54:21

that you can also read it or listen to it from the intent to understand

2:54:30

the source of emasculation yes and by doing so when I witnessed

2:54:38

this you literally can become impervious to a masquerade

2:54:45

you can just see it for what it is yeah you can just see oh she's scared out of her lips I can have

2:54:52

this yeah and that that thought I can handle this I can be with this I don't

2:54:59

have to mess with this I don't have to keep to this all of those thoughts literally create themselves

2:55:06

you think you can handle it you can period

2:55:11

and and that's what I wish for men from the Queen's code not only to to see the

2:55:18

the goodness the honor of your own motivations and no longer let them be

2:55:24

attacked when when women are choosing you of baloney right except that just isn't

2:55:30

true not allow it yes and that's the strength that we as women

2:55:36

need we know when we're first set and and we respect the man who doesn't

2:55:43

fall for it I know who you are I know who I am I'm not falling for that

2:55:49

oh really oh thank goodness because we know we're our own worst

2:55:54

enemies so I I I'm working both sides of it for women

2:56:02

to give up justifying emasculating men which is the beginning of curing

2:56:08

ourselves of the habit and the reaction of it and for men to stop falling for it

2:56:17

you you don't have to agree to be a master yes

2:56:23

please decline

2:56:28

women will stop doing it some will

2:56:36

I I give a talk I know you have to go but I gave a talk at a conference in 2021 that I'm going to turn to a YouTube

2:56:41

video about this very subject about how men can stop allowing themselves to be emasculated and where it comes from in women so I'll send that to you when

2:56:48

that's done thank you link to it on our website we can have people watch it

2:56:54

I would love that I would love that thank you so much Alice continued

2:57:01

we'll communicate about that other stuff okay and then and then where would you like to send people

2:57:07

um any links to visit or social media profiles that you'd like um

2:57:13

Allison armstrong.com is easiest place it's the only way it's only a patient get that audiobook mm-hmm

2:57:20

yeah perfect we'll do that thank you thank you thank you Allison I love you I love

2:57:27

you too bye bye